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Isn’t the whole point of Crypto that it doesn’t have an owner or a gouvernence structure?
No, the whole point of crypto is to make lots of money for the people who invented it.
I really don’t understand the idea that using cash is better for budgeting. Whatever you’re planning to spend it on costs the same regardless. Self control and a spreadsheet takes care of budgeting. Cash is a massive pain in the arse in my opinion. Not used it for years and don’t intend to start again for any reason.
Not specific to you (just quoting as an example) .. but ultimately what gives you the say on how others use and manage their money which is to some extent what's happening? People who don't want to use tech are either being forced to or squeezed out.
Personally, I don't want computers, phones or any other tech etc. in my life except as I choose (or get paid for).
If nothing else I want to be able to 'unplug' for a week... not turn on a computer or phone.
Paul Merton manages without a mobile phone or computer...
The idea of my Mum buying a computer and learning to use spreadsheets isn't working for me either.
As for online/offline… where are you buying things where there is no phone signal and no wifi?
That might be quite an England centric point, sorry if you’re somewhere more remote and less connected.
What if I just don't have a smartphone or just don't wish to be carrying it or turn it on (or the battery ran out)?
posts stuff about *they* will control what you can spend etc in the cashless world
bonkers, to what gain?
As per the thread title.... but
*they* will control what you can spend etc in the cashless world
is not
*they* will control what you can spend on and who with etc in the cashless world
It certainly changes spending habits for many... the who people buy from as well as the what but that's all part of a deeper assumption that everyone wishes to be part of this tech society or they can just sod off and/or die.
As the older generations die out and are replaced by digital savvy kids the decline of cash will speed up.
And here is the issue ... a generation of real life unsavvy kids who can't differentiate between real life and some artificial online world (I totally get cash itself is artificial but this is a step or several steps further)
Paul Merton manages without a mobile phone or computer…
He's quoted as saying "I don't have a computer or a mobile phone. I don't have email. I manage because my wife has those things". And I'll bet you his manager and accountant all have them, so he's not so much bravely rejecting tech as using it at one remove.
fair point but not a fair point, I’ve seen that happen and the tills don’t work either so even cash is useless
Well some people have thought hard and come to the wrong conclusion.
I've lived this scenario a few times. You go through the back - you get a second float from the safe and you run a manual tally on a note book using a calculator.
The hardest part is knowing the price of things. - so can forget going to Tesco/Asda who don't put price labels on anything any more . But in our scenario - it was a bar so we knew the price of most common drinks off the top of our head. Folks had a great evening by candle light and one of the guests playing. An old acoustic guitar we found in the back.
I can see holding folding being popular again this winter at least.
What if I just don’t have a smartphone or just don’t wish to be carrying it or turn it on (or the battery ran out)?
Or you run out of cash and there isn't a cash-point nearby? Everyone can create difficult scenarios.
Given that the Treasury just spent millions creating plastic/polymer notes, and one of the reasons they did that is that they last longer, (the £20 note is supposed to last 20 years) plus they printed over 500 million fivers and over 1200 million tenners; I don't think we're at the dawn of the cashless society yet.
Personally, I don’t want computers, phones or any other tech etc. in my life except as I choose (or get paid for).
I just use my bank card for any in person purchases and PayPal for everything else. I totally understand the stance in your post but the world moves on, always has and always will. Cash is becoming less prevalent and I think learning to cope with that change, like any other, is a good thing.
Paul Merton manages without a mobile phone or computer…
How did he communicate that with everyone? 🤣
And here is the issue … a generation of real life unsavvy kids who can’t differentiate between real life and some artificial online world
Pretty sure they are saying 'and here is the real issue - a generation of technophobes who are stuck in the past and can't cope in the modern virtual world'
Just dealing with an old boy who has requested payment by cheque FFS! Refused a simple bank transfer or cash , it's a decent amount but I could pay it in cash, he's not a technophobe , been in business for years. No idea where or even if I still have a cheque book.......first world problems. He says it's because he has a 'property deal' going on, how does that make a blind bit of difference?
Yes cashless is terrible, I lost my wallet two weeks ago as was just doing contactless for everything! Finally found it but those weeks were concerning 🤣
Jamesco, just tell him you dont have a cheque book. I very nearly binned ours a few months ago, hadn't written a cheque since before Covid.
If nothing else I want to be able to ‘unplug’ for a week… not turn on a computer or phone.
Fine but the flip side for many businesses is they don't want the hassle of cash so their want is not to handle it. I trust you respect their prefer
Jamesco, just tell him you dont have a cheque book. I very nearly binned ours a few months ago, hadn't written a cheque since before Covid.
If nothing else I want to be able to ‘unplug’ for a week… not turn on a computer or phone.
Fine but the flip side for many businesses is they don't want the hassle of cash so their want is not to handle it. I trust you respect their preference.
Face it you're in a dying minority, many older people have happily embraced technology, attitude is the main barrier, you dont need expensive tech, just a cheap smart phone. With modern banking apps it's just as easy to budget by looking at your current balance as counting your cash in your hand, so that argument is out the window as well.
johnners
He’s quoted as saying “I don’t have a computer or a mobile phone. I don’t have email. I manage because my wife has those things”. And I’ll bet you his manager and accountant all have them, so he’s not so much bravely rejecting tech as using it at one remove.
He's not "bravely rejecting tech" he just doesn't want it neither is this some "one off quote".
I think the one you quoted was about "What screen saver do you have" but he's variously asked and never makes a big deal and say's "his wife has one".
I remember one interview with him and Hislop where he got asked "but how do you meet people" (or something) and Hislop just replied with (sic) "how do think we did before mobile phones".
Equally, yep sure his accountant has a computer, they are being paid to.
How did he communicate that with everyone?
He answers questions he gets asked face to face...
funkmasterp
I just use my bank card for any in person purchases and PayPal for everything else. I totally understand the stance in your post but the world moves on, always has and always will. Cash is becoming less prevalent and I think learning to cope with that change, like any other, is a good thing.
It's not (so much) about prevalence it's about removing the option.
I'm getting on a bit myself but I'm sure even I'm younger than say the average national trust visitor.
Not that long (2yrs) ago I tried parking at Hindhead and my phone was too old to even download the App required to pay. Ultimately though it's usually a case that I end up paying for something I don't want.
If I give another example... I pay council tax. I am prohibited from using the tip I pay for because I don't have a "car". (I have a van but that then excludes a great deal and I have to register it and pay) There is no option to turn up with a wheel barrow or some bags, moped etc.
Lots of people don't have a vehicle at all... so they are completely unable to use this service they have no option but to pay for. To extend your statement (into something you didn't say) perhaps they should just "get with the times"? (This is made more complex that a private company operate it and set prices so that other competing companies can't use it)
In this case the assumption from our council is everyone has a car.... this of course then extends into bike parking, planning for shops etc. etc. no bus service between walk in clinic and hospital or between sister sites of the hospital (5 miles and 7 miles) and I'm not exactly back of beyond but the council's expectation/assumption is all residents have a car.
I guess what I'm saying is there are these assumptions that people should just embrace either getting a mobile phone, car, cashless etc. or they are not worth considering as part of society.
Footflaps
Pretty sure they are saying ‘and here is the real issue – a generation of technophobes who are stuck in the past and can’t cope in the modern virtual world’
Well we were here 1st 😉
More seriously in all the extended examples (car, mobiles) its accepted that both the accompanying health issues are something we should just accept. I hope I don't need to go into why cars cause health issues or how many studies link pressures from mobile usage to mental health issues?
Let's face it. It's the same argument that's plagued paper maps.
Tech is great . Right up till it's not.... Then your screwed.
Let's face it. It's the same argument that's plagued paper maps.
Tech is great . Right up till it's not.... Then your screwed.
I predominantly use my phone. There has been a number of occasions lately where the contactless hasn't recognised the phone -and I've no other method of payment. To the point Im back to carrying at least a single card.
Bit like how pre pandemic id carry a card and 20quid on a ride as several cafes round here were cash only.
What do you have to take to the tip by hand? Does your council not offer a kerbside collection?
When I worked at the council a van registration was something exorbitant like £15 quid. Registration is there to stop tradesmen from taking the piss with commercial waste.
What do you have to take to the tip by hand? Does your council not offer a kerbside collection?
Does any of that matter. If your not in a car your excluded.
And fyi yes I can get kerbside collection. It's charged per item and so again another tax on those without cars
As for the rest of that, it's a lot of words to say "I don't want it." And that's fine.
Most of the arguments are mince, of course. From weapons-grade tinfoil-hattery about Them, to forgetting your phone whataboutery because no-one in the history of ever as found themselves out and about going "shit, my wallet's in my other coat!"
You want to use cash, good for you, no-one is forcing you not to. We're not going to ban cash, certainly not in our lifetimes. What will happen, guaranteed, is that convenience will drive popularity. The reason next to no-one uses cheques anymore isn't because they've been banned by Big Banknote but because they're a pain in the arse.
Money will go the same way. Rummaging around in a purse or wallet, "oh, I've only got a twenty, is that OK?"; eyerolls as the shopkeeper counts out £14.86 in change; they've run out of pennies so there's that awkward moment where neither of you know whether they're going to under- or over-charge you 1p; here's your receipt to immediately lose; then walking round like ED-209 all day until you can get home and dump it into an oversized whisky bottle to 'take to the bank' when it's full. Alternatively, blip... "payment accepted." By the time your grandkids are our age, a £20 note will be something they stick in birthday cards and the Generation Gammas think is quaint.
Does any of that matter. If your not in a car your excluded.
This has all gone a bit Life Of Brian.
And fyi yes I can get kerbside collection. It’s charged per item and so again another tax on those without cars
Don't be melodramatic. It's a charge for an additional service. Have you never bought anything and been told "in-store collection available for free, or home delivery is £4.99"?
For what it's worth, this varies by council. Hyndburn does free bulky collection so long as you don't take the piss; Burnley have a nominal fee (it's something like 10-15 quid for up to four items); I expect other local councils are broadly similar.
Alternatively, blip… “payment accepted.”
Well to be as dismissive as you to other view points yes that's one alternative.
Alternatively, to blip… “payment accepted. There are several other outcomes the world's not black an white.
Almost all of the other scenarios that arise when you go "blip" are negated by......cash.
Don’t be melodramatic. It’s a charge for an additional service. Have you never bought anything and been told “in-store collection available for free, or home delivery is £4.99”?
Ok. I don't want your home delivery I'll come collect it on my bike for free ..... Oh no sorry sir we only allow cars on site - oh but I don't own a car- But we can charge you more to deliver it.
The world's not black and white have a little empathy . View it from others view points once in a while.
Bit like how pre pandemic id carry a card and 20quid on a ride as several cafes round here were cash only.
I just have a £20 note in the back of my phone case - used it twice since lockdown first started.
Tech is great . Right up till it’s not…. Then your screwed.
But...That's no one's fault but your own. If you go somewhere and you either haven't charged your GPS, or miscalculated how long it would take, or got lost, those are all imaginable circumstances, if you've not planned for it; well, you've only yourself to blame. Having your bank card on your phone, or you just carry cash, is exactly the same gig,
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance as the saying goes.
Lots of people don’t have a vehicle at all… so they are completely unable to use this service they have no option but to pay for.
They're not completely unable to use the service, the actual service of sorting the rubbish after drop off is freely available to them, they just have to find a different way of getting stuff there - could be a zip car, cargo bike, man and van etc. I don't think councils are unfair charging a modest fee for collecting stuff it costs them money do to so.
Almost all of the other scenarios that arise when you go “blip” are negated by……cash.
Or, almost all of the other scenarios that arise when you go “cash” are negated by……blip.
🤷♂️ It's an alternative. We've had Your Flexible Friend™ since the 1980s and no-one's been crying into their soup about that. Today we have debit cards, credit cards, contactless is displacing chip & pin as rapidly as C&P supplanted magnetic strips and "sign here please, sir" but they're ostensibly the same process. Contactless phone payment is no different. If your card fails you have cash / if your cash fails you have card, is the point I was getting at. Like I said, if you don't want to use those options then that's absolutely fine, it's not mandatory.
My mum falls into this camp. She's in her mid-70s, her phone is what today we'd somewhat ironically call a 'feature phone'. She's happy typing in her PIN on a transaction which would accept her contactless card and always insists on giving me a tenner if I get her shopping in. (I've tried arguing this, she says if I don't accept it she'll feel guilty asking me next time, the manipulative cow.) For her, cashless is a non-starter. There are people of her generation who long for the return of shillings FFS.
Ok. I don’t want your home delivery I’ll come collect it on my bike for free ….. Oh no sorry sir we only allow cars on site – oh but I don’t own a car- But we can charge you more to deliver it.
Going to cycle to John Lewis to collect a fridge, are you?
The world’s not black and white have a little empathy . View it from others view points once in a while.
I'm sympathetic to those who don't want something or can't, I said this (in black and white) earlier. Choice is good.
What I have less time for is baseless pseudo-justifications for this decision, like whoever it was talking about 'control' earlier. Would you, could you like green eggs and ham?
I have had to start carrying an emergency fiver in my toolkit as I have been in three pubs in the last fortnight that are cash only. I always have a few notes in my wallet but often just stick a card in my pocket when going out on the bike.
Going to cycle to John Lewis to collect a fridge, are you?
Must have missed where you mentioned it was a fridge earlier in your hypothetical situation. But you keep shifting goalposts it's a good look.
Back in the real world I've Tried to take stuff to the skip on my bike and been told no bikes on safety grounds.
Kerbside domestic refuse and recycling is free nationally. Bulky item collection is provided (I think) by all local councils although some charge a nominal fee.
So: what are you having to take to the tip which can be readily transported on a bicycle but cannot go into kerbside collection?
been told no bikes on safety grounds.
Do you consider that an unreasonable restriction? I can readily see why a site with heavy plant vehicles wouldn't want free-range cyclists hooning about. Kids on bikes are enough of a menace at Tesco.
Glass bottles which are not taken in the recycling locally (but are within the region if your googling for information) but your requested to take them to the skip your self from our postcode area.
In the shire we have had to take all our recycling to the skip ourselves up until fairly recently.
Do you consider that an unreasonable restriction? I can readily see why a site with heavy plant vehicles wouldn’t want free-range cyclists hooning about.
Well if they allow cars , people with trailers who can't reverse them, pedestrians from the cars carrying things far too big for them to carry alone.
Then no...... Because it was a long time ago that the heavy machinery and the public part were separated in any of the skips round our part.
Glass bottles which are not taken in the recycling locally (but are within the region if your googling for information) but your requested to take them to the skip your self from our postcode area.
And if you took that up with your council because you didn't have transport, what would they say I wonder? Would they expect, to reuse an earlier example, my septuagenarian stroke-survivor imminent-double-kidney-failure mother to by making her own way to the tip with bags of recycling? I wonder what their response would be if you fell off your bike and landed in bagfuls of smashed glass.
No other glass recycle points? We've got one in ASDA car park.
In the shire we have had to take all our recycling to the skip ourselves up until fairly recently.
This is how we get fly-tipping. In the situation you describe most people would probably bung the lot into general waste.
Well if they allow cars , people with trailers who can’t reverse them, pedestrians from the cars carrying things far too big for them to carry alone.
Then no…… Because it was a long time ago that the heavy machinery and the public part were separated in any of the skips round our part.
Dunno then. At my local tip the skips are isolated from the rest of the site but that involves crossing what we might call 'shared use' areas to get to them. If you got out of your car early you'd get shouted at. A cyclist (or pedestrian) would probably be fine at the skip area itself but they'd have to get there first.
Plus as I said, kids on bikes. A recycling yard might be adventure playground for bored teenagers, a blanket "no bikes" policy would solve that and local councils aren't famed for nuance.
Did you say you worked at a council yard?
I worked at a local council, dunno whether that's what you're referring to as a 'yard'. Probably is. It wasn't the recycling centre (tip) itself but we worked closely with refuse collection. All the drivers and binmen were based out of our site. Part of my job was GIS mapping domestic collection routes and the office I was in dealt with the moany arses who rang in every week because their collection was 47 seconds late. Plus we / they dealt with stuff as above like applications for van permits (there were a lot of those). Mostly I was IT but I saw a lot of what goes on second-hand.
I just have a £20 note in the back of my phone case – used it twice since lockdown first started.
Remarkable that it managed to find its way back to you both times. 🙂
They’re not completely unable to use the service, the actual service of sorting the rubbish after drop off is freely available to them, they just have to find a different way of getting stuff there – could be a zip car, cargo bike, man and van etc. I don’t think councils are unfair charging a modest fee for collecting stuff it costs them money do to so.
They are charging for a service you can drop off ... it's in the council tax.
They explicitly forbid ALL of your options perhaps with the zip car being possible. (Assuming you don't get charged for messing the inside up and of course you have a license and you think it's reasonable to expect someone to hire a car for the sole purpose of dropping their recycling off)
No Bikes (cargo or otherwise)
No foot traffic (wheelbarrow/bags)
No man and van (classed as commercial so a per item charge on top)
All for the service that's free if you have a car and you're already paying for.
Does any of that matter. If your not in a car your excluded.
Cougar
This has all gone a bit Life Of Brian.
The point here is "punishing people for not having a car" either deliberately or just as a by-product of assuming if someone doesn't have a car they're irrelevant.
It might be recycling, it might be bike parking, buses between hospitals .....
It's the same point as "punishing people don't have a smartphone or computer" and as per thread title we are talking about a cashless society so no choice.
A free service that you're paying for?
Your council tax pays for council services including refuse collection, disposal and recycling. They allow members of the public to drive into their facilities to drop off additional waste, and there is a surcharge if you require additional services such as trade waste disposal or an extraordinary collection. I would suppose that the only reason they provide a drive-up service at all is to give folk a preferable alternative to fly tipping.
I've never had a house fire, should I be complaining about my council tax funding a fire service for those who have?
The point here is “punishing people for not having a car”
... is a nonsense.
It’s the same point as “punishing people don’t have a smartphone or computer”
... is also a nonsense. These things aren't happening. They can't, for exactly the reasons you cite.
The point here is “punishing people for not having a car”
… is a nonsense.
Finally something we agree on. Punishing people for not having a car to use services provided is an absolute nonsense and should not be a thing in this day and age.
But as much as you deny it exists you then go on to describe it happening in uour justification.
Finally something we agree on. Punishing people for not having a car to use services provided is an absolute nonsense and should not be a thing in this day and age.
But as much as you deny it exists you then go on to describe it happening in uour justification.
^^^
@Cougar
You should actually give this a go and walk a mile in someone else's shoes... you're mum is lucky you're local.
This is our free rag
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/your-say-what-should-done-25293508
A free service that you’re paying for?
Your council tax pays for council services including refuse collection, disposal and recycling. They allow members of the public to drive into their facilities to drop off additional waste, and there is a surcharge if you require additional services such as trade waste disposal or an extraordinary collection. I would suppose that the only reason they provide a drive-up service at all is to give folk a preferable alternative to fly tipping.
My council tax pays for a service that is written in a contract (with an AMEY subsidiary). That contract say's that the drop off service will be provided FREE to residents.
If you are half interested (I'll assume not) I can send you the entire contract, its on my HDD.
We spent 18mo+ with no garden waste collection every 2 weeks... this is an optional (non council tax) service we paid for and got 4-5 collections over 18mo.
According to the contract the council (not the customer) got paid £25 for every missed collection (pop 100k so work that out) but its tens to hundreds of millions underwritten by AMEC.
The council maintained throughout this everyone could drop off their garden waste for FREE.... which wasn't true as it required a CAR. Not only that they made it impossible for anyone else to do this...
Our neighbour opposite doesn't drive.... (or have a license) so we do a fair bit if shopping for her. When she asked of I could take her garden waste I had to say no... not because of the registration of the van but because their rules say no garden waste in vans WITHOUT a commercial contract.
Your council has contractually agreed to provide a free drop-off service to residents, which it is doing.
On top of this you paid for an additional collection service for green waste which they seemingly failed to honour, so are in breach of contract if so. If I'm reading your post correctly they subcontracted the work and got let down, is that right?
With the local council I both lived under and worked for, you required a permit in order to use your van to unload waste - which sounds like your actual beef here - and this was something which was readily available for a nominal admin fee. Your local council may differ of course, councils tend to, but at Hyndburn it was little more than a declaration saying "I have a vehicle that meets your definition of 'van' but I am not working in the trade, here's fifteen quid, give me a sticker please." Or, of course, paying for actual trade disposal if you weren't residential.
Under the same council my area didn't have a regular green waste service (there's not much call for it on a 1900s terrace). You could have a green collection but it was an annual fee, I guess not dissimilar to the scenario you describe. It wasn't worth it for me, I had a hedge which needed a green collection but not fortnightly. Over the years I took bin bags to the tip in the car (sorry, the CAR), topped up the general waste bin with loose clippings, or just left black bags out next to the regular wheelie bin.
This is our free rag
Doesn't surprise me. I said this already, if you make it awkward for people to recycle then they'll go "**** it" and act like animals.
Your council has contractually agreed to provide a free drop-off service to residents, which it is doing.
No the council (as a council) has a obligation to provide a defined waste service that they have subcontracted.
They have added optional components .. they are not obligated to provide with the same contractor. (Garden waste)
The real point is the former council had a anti-anti-pro-car stance. (Deliberate double negative)
By that I mean their policies were pro-car and making car ownership as necessary as possible. (From public transport to waste to supermarket placement and parking to bike lanes) - To put this simply the answer to every question on "how people get somewhere" was "a car" and optimising the services around that.
On top of this you paid for an additional collection service for green waste which they seemingly failed to honour, so are in breach of contract if so. If I’m reading your post correctly they subcontracted the work and got let down, is that right?
Parts of the council (Exec, portfolio manager and head of legal) without consultation "negotiated" a contract that involved handing over the council owned waste management facilities to a private company control. The contract was signed under delegated authority by the head of legal (i.e. non elected official)
This contract is underwritten by AMEY and has KPI's and performance penalties and a requirement the contractor does due diligence. The contract also cedes control to the contractor allowing it to prevent any other waste management company performing a competitive service.
We the residents/council tax payers were neither consulted nor given a choice on anything except the optional garden waste component.
Most importantly we did not get to see the contract either the one between the council and contractor OR the contract between ourselves and the contractor. Very specifically we didn't get to see the clauses saying if the subcontractor failed to honour the contract with the consumer then the council would be the beneficiary of £75 (just checked) per missed bin collection. (It's actually 3hrs of "admin time" which is defined at £25/hr)
If I’m reading your post correctly they subcontracted the work and got let down, is that right?
They subcontracted work and when let down failed to implement the penalties designed on the face of it to make the contractor meet their obligations then lied through their teeth saying everyone could use the recycling centre for free and that the contractor's issues were "not having enough drivers"**.
(** despite the due diligence etc. they didn't have enough HGV drivers.. however nothing stopped them using Class C1 and for what they should have been fined in penalties they could have bought a entire fleet and then some) erm yep it will cost their parent company millions but that's the cost of privatising.)
With the local council I both lived under and worked for, you required a permit in order to use your van to unload waste – which sounds like your actual beef here – and this was something which was readily available for a nominal admin fee.
A nominal FEE is not FREE .... which is what the portfolio holder was claiming but that aside once you have the permit there is a huge list of excluded items that don't apply to cars and a further list of "commercial contracts only" that don't apply to cars so it isn't simply a case of stumping up a £15 admin fee but then a pay-per-use at exorbitant rates.
These pay per use quantities were commercial units (e.g. tonnes)... so one wooden fence post or 1 tonne (whatever the chargeable units were) the list has gone with the new council but everything was quantities noone could get to without knocking a whole house down and then rebuilding.
According to several companies we tried to get to do a private contract so punitive they couldn't do a private contract in our borough even though they operate in the area. When I say "we" I'm including 3 people who are councillors today after the previous admin was absolutely destroyed in the last elections. (of all the wards for election the Tory's lost all of them and only retain wards not up in the rotation system)
Over the years I took bin bags to the tip in the car (sorry, the CAR), topped up the general waste bin with loose clippings, or just left black bags out next to the regular wheelie bin.
All but the former will get you fined by the contractor and indeed whilst they were not running the green waste service they were fining the very people paying for it for putting garden waste in the black bin.
Anyway, the main point is public services shouldn't be designed to exclude or disadvantage people that don't have a car. (With obvious exceptions like a council run MOT place)
In the same way people can choose not to have a phone, internet or a computer and/or not use it for certain things and public services shouldn't assume everyone has or feels comfortable to use it.
I had to constantly tell our neighbourhood plan forum (as defined) that internet only consultation wasn't representative (especially in our ward). Just because its easier doesn't make it a consultation if people are excluded... and might as well be “But look, you found the notice, didn't you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.”
Non optional services (gas, electric, banks) should equally fall into this category.
No idea if I have said anything here before but I thought I would chuck a bit in.
From the previous page " cheap smart phone"
Where? 50 quid aint cheap for those who don't want the thing. Then you need coverage. None here. Then you need all that fuss with passwords . Cash is easier for me. Don't have to worry about the loss or inconvienince. Just shove a fiver in my pocket or the seat post and all is good.
Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm
Just dealing with an old boy who has requested payment by cheque FFS!
You can write a cheque on any piece of paper - a cheque is just an IOU with your bank details on it.
50 quid aint cheap for those who don’t want the thing
Your choice but you'll be excluding yourself from lots moving forward, opting out is going to become less of an option. Personally I'm not happy paying for a car I don't want either but hey hi can't walk or ride everywhere.
do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems
No, but I don't have 100% in anything, including the authenticity of bank notes in my wallet. You don't need reception to use contactless payment via a phone.
Passwords, plenty of options for remembering passwords these days, so not a real reason not to embrace the future.
Cash is easier for me.
It's easier than the fiction you're arguing against, certainly. NFC payment on phones is the same as contactless debit cards. Neither require mobile coverage or passwords.
Though of course, security isn't inherently bad. If you lose a wallet full of cash that you somehow don't have to worry about losing(?) then you have no further protection either against it being spent or in tracing and recouping the loss afterwards. If I lose my card and someone goes on a spending spree then I can reclaim it; in fact, this happened once, I lost my card and didn't realise until I made a phone payment, my bank stopped it because the two transactions were too far apart geographically to be plausible. The fraudulent transactions were refunded on the spot. Cash would have been long gone.
Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm
Presumably you keep your life savings under the mattress?
You can write a cheque on any piece of paper – a cheque is just an IOU with your bank details on it.
It doesn't even have to be paper. I used to work in a building that did the cheque clearing and someone protesting about the Torness Nuclear Reactor paid their fine on a coffin!
do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems
Do you think that each cashpoint has a little box with your name on it inside into which your pay is deposited by your employer every month?
Our cash systems are heavily dependent on IT systems....
Up in that there London for a couple of days.
Shopkeepers looking at you all funny when you pull cash out instead of a card.
Was stood in the queue for some noodles. Guy up front only had cash and they wouldn’t accept it, only card payments. How ridiculous.
I was ready to take his cash and buy it on my card, but the guy in front did it instead.
Our cash systems are heavily dependent on IT systems….
Only at the point of withdrawal/ deposit though - that's kinda the point of one of the advantages of cash, once you have it out of the bank it doesn't rely on other systems.
Only at the point of withdrawal/ deposit though – that’s kinda the point of one of the advantages of cash, once you have it out of the bank it doesn’t rely on other systems.
With none of the protection of those systems either.
Sorry Steve, I wasn't ignoring you.
To put this simply the answer to every question on “how people get somewhere” was “a car” and optimising the services around that.
It makes sense to optimise services around the most common forms of travel though, doesn't it? Whilst say a massive cycling infrastructure investment might be great for us, it's a waste of money if there's three people in the borough who own bikes. And then of course you'd have the reverse side of the coin, everyone in cars (ie, likely the majority) whining about the council building cycle lanes rather than filling in potholes.
Am I misremembering or is this BwDBC you're talking about? (That's who I worked for, I was mistaken when I said Hyndburn earlier.)
Parts of the council (Exec, portfolio manager and head of legal) without consultation “negotiated” a contract [etc]
Most importantly we did not get to see the contract [etc]
Well... so what? What business is that of the residents? What's important is that they provide the service they've agreed to provide, how they provide it isn't your concern. No? Failing to meet obligations is a problem the council needs to address.
Anyway, the main point is public services shouldn’t be designed to exclude or disadvantage people that don’t have a car. (With obvious exceptions like a council run MOT place)
So what would you propose instead?
Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm
I've worked on these and yes I do. I'm pretty sure I've lost more money as cash than I have in electronic transfers. Much more.
A cashless society has me worried on a few levels.
1. The sheer controls the bank(s) will have.
2. It can be tied easily into social credit where the government (like they already do in China) can restrict funds or travel if you don't 'tow the line'. Incidentally, our new PM is a big fan of this idea.
3. When the cashless system is invariably attacked by a nefarious party and is brought down....then what?
4. Losing perspective as to how much you can spend just at the click of a button. Granted you already can (ad do!).
5. I don't trust banks and i certainly don't trust governments to act in the publics best interests where any thing is concerned let alone manage something as serious as this.
If the cashless society ever becomes a thing, i can only see it eventually coming with some of restriction of freedom whether that's something along the lines of control hidden behind some 'Carbon Credit Limit' nonsense or some such. Restrictions would be far easier to implement in a cashless society.
....i'm naturally a cynical and suspicious person when it comes to things like this anyway, so will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm
I’ve worked on these and yes I do. I’m pretty sure I’ve lost more money as cash than I have in electronic transfers. Much more.
That's a different faith, I think.
I have faith in bank systems not to lose my money, or at worst to reimburse me if they do. I have less faith in their 24/7 availability.
1. The sheer controls the bank(s) will have.
To do what?
2. It can be tied easily into social credit where the government (like they already do in China) can restrict funds or travel if you don’t ‘tow the line’. Incidentally, our new PM is a big fan of this idea.
We don't live in China.
3. When the cashless system is invariably attacked by a nefarious party and is brought down….then what?
What "system" do you envisage as being likely to be brought down which would still allow cash to work?
4. Losing perspective as to how much you can spend just at the click of a button. Granted you already can (ad do!).
This is fair. Plenty of people use cash as a budgeting tool, for instance. I have a mate who pulls out a block of cash when he gets paid, that's his spends for beer or whatever, when it's gone it's gone until next payday.
There's little technical reason why this can't be implemented in an app, though.
5. I don’t trust banks
Based on, what, their long-standing track record of stealing customers' money? Do you suppose that Bill Gates keeps his money under the mattress in $100 bills?
and i certainly don’t trust governments to act in the publics best interests where any thing is concerned let alone manage something as serious as this.
Well, again, nor do I. But having a £20 note in your back pocket isn't going to change that.
Woh, there are some proper tin-foil hatters on here!
That's what Big Bacofoil would want you to think!
Cougar
It makes sense to optimise services around the most common forms of travel though, doesn’t it? Whilst say a massive cycling infrastructure investment might be great for us, it’s a waste of money if there’s three people in the borough who own bikes. And then of course you’d have the reverse side of the coin, everyone in cars (ie, likely the majority) whining about the council building cycle lanes rather than filling in potholes.
It's not optimisation though it's a total and pervasive disregard for any other type of transport.
Our hospital is split on 2 sites.. 7 miles (shortest) apart and not a single bus between them.
1 bus from the town centre to one hospital per hour (when it runs) according to google maps the quickest way by public transport is to get the airport coach to Heathrow and walk... (1hr43)
Take another council .. but
Am I misremembering or is this BwDBC you’re talking about? (That’s who I worked for, I was mistaken when I said Hyndburn earlier.)
No sadly I'm down south now...
So take Guildford next door with the Royal Surrey
There are a number of options for you to choose from when travelling to Royal Surrey, but we would recommend using public transport wherever possible as on-site parking is very limited. If you do come by car, please allow extra time to park before your appointment.
same page (maps etc. inbetween)
Safeguard Buses operate a regular service to Royal Surrey from Guildford Town Centre, via the train station, with buses running every seven or eight minutes.
You need to catch route five to the hospital and route four back into Guildford Town Centre.
The buses run at different frequencies at weekends and on public bank holidays. For more information about buses click here.
Also available:
Stagecoach route 1 (via Surrey Sports Park / University of Surrey)
A return to Guildford picks up directly outside the hospital Main Entrance (Bus stop HT1).
Well… so what? What business is that of the residents? What’s important is that they provide the service they’ve agreed to provide, how they provide it isn’t your concern. No? Failing to meet obligations is a problem the council needs to address.
They have negotiated an exclusive service with their mates... hidden from the wider council (including oversight committee) and signed for under delegated authority by the head of legal and snuck in an optional service (green waste) the we the tax payers then have to subscribe to with their choice of mates because their mates have used council property and charge more for competitors to use it than can be supported.
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All a bit off topic but since you asked WHO... and to see the level of corruption here.
Not the last (interest rates have obviously gone up)
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/staggering-amount-woking-borough-council-23066714
Woking Borough Council is £1.84billion in the red - the third largest debt out of any council in the UK according to independent consultants.
(pop just over 100k so easily highest per capita debt)
Failing to meet obligations is a problem the council needs to address.
Well, lets start obligations with paying off that debt ... most of that money has been transferred to mates of the former Exec, former CEO and still hanging in head of legal. Former head of the council has taken the money and scarpered to his estate in Scotland amid corruption investigations.
I'd argue if the council negotiate a contract on your behalf (opt in green waste) with penalty clauses that pay THEM they need to disclose they are the recipient of this. Not only that but they then failed to enforce this.
Let's say in anything else you get a contract (lets say a LBS that leases bikes) .. and you have a contract say's it will be maintained every x weeks and sealant replaced and bearings changed, fork/shock serviced etc.
They subcontract part of this.. and have a contract with TFT says if a fork service takes longer than 2 weeks they get £75 after 6 months or a year you still don't have your bike, you are still being charged the lease and you just want to get the forks dine and pay yourself but they are making £75 every 2 weeks by NOT providing that bike back to you.
I'd say they have an obligation to tell you that they are the beneficiary of £75 every fortnight they keep your bike.
How much money are we talking about?
Had the council collected the penalties .. 45,000 households with a collection every 2 weeks.
We are leafier than you so lets just say 1/2 those 45,000 have green waste collection .. 45,000*0.5*0.5*£75 = £843,750 per week over a year = £43,875,000 (you can divide that by 10 and its still a considerable amount)
Obviously AMEY wouldn't have paid that as they had plenty of alternatives... they could buy a fleet of Class C, hire other waste companies etc. etc. but instead they were allowed to just not pay hence did nothing whilst the portfolio holder lied for them and failed to enforce the penalty (or obviously even say they would).
On the off-chance AMEY actually did pay then that's £43 Million off our council tax not into the pockets of the special vehicle company set up between the councillors and AMEY!
***************
So what would you propose instead?
Honestly, it's as simple as asking the question and not accepting the answer EVERYONE WILL DRIVE A CAR.
See the Royal Surrey ... easy to get to by bus, train etc. could do with safer bike parking but at least I can take a bus.
Council recycling ... they need to provide pedestrian entry (that allows pushing a bike or wheelbarrow).
Same thing .. not everyone wants to pay electronically or use a phone etc.
If people WANT to use an electronic service then that's fine but they shouldn't be penalised or cut off for not doing.
Cougar
Based on, what, their long-standing track record of stealing customers’ money?
You may have not been affected by the 2008-2009 crisis but surely you remember it?
If that's not enough than its only a week since banks were proposing stopping people withdrawing money.
Do you suppose that Bill Gates keeps his money under the mattress in $100 bills?
He certainly doesn't keep it in banks...
You may have not been affected by the 2008-2009 crisis but surely you remember it?
If that’s not enough than its only a week since banks were proposing stopping people withdrawing money.
All the cash you see has probably been in and out of a bank anyway, so it's not going to make much difference unless you do away with banks entirely. Then be prepared to fight off gangs of thieves at the end of every month when you run the gauntlet trying to get home with several thousand in cash. This is the reason banks were invented in the first place.
Preventing usage of funds depending on political climate or agenda and certain organisations exactly like PayPal did just a few weeks ago.
The cashless payment systems will have to become a variety of nodes sat on a massive public network.....it wouldn't be long before before some troublesome spotty teen.....or another nefarious party brings that to a standstill. Nothing is impenetrable.
We don't live in China....not yet we don't. 😉
Cash is still physical and could still be used easily enough. They managed absolutely fine in the 60's.
Bill Gates - that would be some mattress! Almost as big as mine...almost! 😉
He certainly doesn’t keep it in banks…
Really???
Go on then..... is it in giant piggy banks?
Preventing usage of funds depending on political climate or agenda and certain organisations exactly like PayPal did just a few weeks ago.
Paypal prevented access to funds?
The cashless payment systems will have to become a variety of nodes sat on a massive public network…..it wouldn’t be long before before some troublesome spotty teen…..or another nefarious party brings that to a standstill. Nothing is impenetrable.
"become" - what do you suppose payment systems are right now?
We don’t live in China….not yet we don’t. 😉
Well, that's a whole other argument isn't it. Our civil rights are being torn up hand over fist.
Cash is still physical and could still be used easily enough. They managed absolutely fine in the 60’s.
We don't live in the 60s. This is the same woolly argument used by brexiters, "we were alright before we joined" (we weren't at all but that's not the point here). Times have changed, tills aren't mechanical devices with shillings on them. We're simply not equipped to deal with manual processes any more, if I buy a sandwich and a bottle of milk from the bakery round the corner they reach for a calculator to add the two numbers together.
If you buy something in a shop today it almost certainly goes through some form of EPOS - Electronic Point Of Sale - system. That's true whether you pay by phone, by chip & pin, by contactless debit card, by cheque, by cash, or by two goats and a chicken. If you're concerned about... christ, I don't even know, some sort of Russian cyberterrorism attacking the retail networks, then that ship has already sailed my friend.
You may have not been affected by the 2008-2009 crisis but surely you remember it?
If that’s not enough than its only a week since banks were proposing stopping people withdrawing money.
Don't you see the irony here? You want to use cash because if everyone wanted to use cash then there wouldn't be enough cash so... what, best get in there first? Have you got barrels of petrol in your garage too?
It's this sort of hysterical mass muppetry which causes the problems in the first place, not the banks.
He certainly doesn’t keep it in banks…
Really???
Go on then….. is it in giant piggy banks?
