[Closed] Possibly moving to Geneva or very close: tips

I cant tell you anything about living there, but I can tell you that Geneva is around 2 x the cost of living in the UK (outside london/SE). So 100k CHF sounds alot, but thats equivalent to 45k in say Sheffield, for the both of you.

That wouldn't stop me as I would assume I'd figure it out when I got there, you're not going to go bust on that money, but you're also maybe looking at a significant drop in saving/free cash after your bills are paid.

I'd heard from a friend that little fact and I checked it out here: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/calculator.jsp? Seems to agree.

Some folk live in France and commute into Geneva as its much cheaper to live there.

Some folk live in France and commute into Geneva as its much cheaper to live there.

.

According to the employer that is no longer an option. All non-eu working in Switzerland have to reside there now.

 

living in the UK (outside london/SE). So 100k CHF sounds alot, but thats equivalent to 45k

How do you know my life so well? we have a sheffield post code and she earns about that much currently.

Although I ear too.

Most people who live in Geneva go to France regularly to buy food (meat, wine etc) due to prices being cheaper.

I paid 30 CHF for a double rum and coke in the Ibis. I remember trying to really really savour it.

100k CHF really isn't much. A lot of teachers get that over there.

The obvious challenges are the cost of living, the cost of the admin/docs if you want to stay long term, the language barrier (French area is easier to live in), the undercurrent of racism, the overt politeness and rigid societal structures, the fact that you might need to have a referendum in order to have a fart. By far the biggest challenge would be the general smugness.

Love Switzerland, not a fan of the locals. Zurich probably worse than GVA.

I hope it works out for you guys. Road biking is excellent around there. The Jura mountains are very close as it's the border..lovely place. Annecy is just 1hr away.

How do you know my life so well? we have a sheffield post code and she earns about that much currently.

Why did I guess Sheffield? This is STW!

My friend mike lived there for 5 years. Gained citizenship, or the right to live in France and commute over the border.
He now lives near LaSeleve. The mountain with the gondola sw of gva
Amazingly expensive shops, and he works in oil expo.. Some strange laws that we dpnt have
Traffic getting round the lake is a nightmare. His wife works in the Australian consulate and her drive is between 1 and 2 hr each way. I would cycle it in under an hr but thats me
He pays his cleaners more than i earn per hr
Can get really cold for weeks in the winter. Stunning scenery though

I have friends who did similar about 5 years ago. However She is getting paid a LOT more.

He has really struggled, French as a 1st language is a requirement for most jobs he’s tried to get, he’s fluent and still struggles to get interviews. He doesn’t really need to work but there’s only so much spare time he can kill.

They live 20km up the road from I’m Geneva, have a pretty nice semi detatched house with a view of the mountains/lake and it was over £1m 5 years ago! They do nip over the border for food shops.

They have a really nice life out there as they both enjoy the mountains, biking in the summer and skiing in the winter.

Don’t underestimate how expensive EVERYTHING is, you might not notice in short trips, but stuff is at least double the cost of UK prices.

So if stuff is double the cost and she's earning more than double now and we have a house sale with a decent bit of capital. I think the maths are fine.

I wouldn't use the proceeds from a house sale to fund day to day living myself, but each to their own.

So if stuff is double the cost and she’s earning more than double now and we have a house sale with a decent bit of capital. I think the maths are fine.

NO, really no.

ElShal said a lot if good things in his post.

My fag packet calculation would put that 100 grand at about £40k UK gross based on the fact that I used to get around 2.5 Chuffs to the pound in the past when I skiid there. Even then it was acceptable rather than cheap. But that is gross salary, you need to deduct a huge chunk for tax and healthcare..... those amazing Swiss trains and infrastructure have to be paid for somehow....

100k only seems a lot as the chuff has soared in value compared to GBP, first due to being a safe haven after the banking crisis and then due to Brexit.

week ski pass in Zermatt is currently £372. Seems expensive to me, but it was quite reasonable when I last went before the pound tanked again.

Alsoz as ElShal said, the Swiss are quite weird. Very conservative and selfish/strict as a nation. She's got loads if stories from years ago of colleagues only being able to have elderly parents live with them for six months at a time then getting deported back to Germany, of people finding the police on the doorstep the day after their contract ended etc.

You know how the English proles view Germany, that's how the Germans view the Swiss...

Quite likely we'll move there at some point, and I'm sure it is amazing of you have the funds, but IMHO 100K is nowhere near enough. YMMV

You'd get some good input on Snowheads too. Loads of people there who live in Switz, including a smattering with lovely second homes in the mountains ...😉

Lived in central Switzerland for 5 years, gorgeous place and great outdoors life. But the Swiss are a bit odd and not too fond of foreigners.
That said I made good friends there and see them often.
Very officiously so learn the rules including the cultural ones.

We lived there for 2 years 2008-2010, although it seems fantastic to tell the stories now of Morzine / Les Gets every weekend I never really made any friends or close connections and my overwhelming real memory of been there is of been a bit bored? And hungry, food is all bland and restaurants are super expensive and crap. The super anal organization of everything definitely got to me in the end.

We basically decided to move once our youngest daughter was school age and we realised the school fees would bankrupt us (public schools impossible to get in to and private schools charge a percentage of your gross income!!!)

Also if you are moving there with a company you have to make sure they have covered you for all the potential costs in the expat package. My wife had an operation for appendicitis and the health insurance we had covered the private hospital - all very nice - but then it turned out that you have to pay the bills first and then reclaim them. When the first CHF 6,000 bill arrived, I thought ok, paid it, will claim that back... then over the next week about CHF 25,000 more in bills arrived....

Lived in NW CH for 13yrs, just moved back to Scotland.

It’ll be an amazing experience if you jump in and embrace it.

Re. Money - take all your worst case estimates of Cost of living and add another 50%. The most important thing you must consider is the cost of private healthcare. You need insurance, and then you still pay for almost everything else on top. Dental is not covered and is unbelievably ****ing expensive.

E.g. In our first year There (2007) I needed root canal and crown after a molar exploded. That was 4.5K. Bang went any holidays that year!

One thing that will define your experience is: are you prepared to live by the Swiss rules without question. If you desire freedom, living your life the way you want, and resistant to living and working only in the path pre-determined by authorities and banks, then it will drive you mental.

A 2 bed house in or around Geneva is about 7k pcm rental. Your wife's take home will be around 6.6k.

A flat will be about 3.5k chf

Monthly living costs are about 1500chf per person ex rental.

Food is expensive. (1doz eggs is 6-7chf at a supermarket)
Health care is expensive
A social life is eye watering. (the above 30eur a drink is not an unusual price, a McDonalds value meal thing is 15chf.)

I'm not saying you're sums are wrong but check your numbers. It's not 45k in Sheffield it's 45k in London.

I'd expect you could live for that but not have a life. You'll barely be able to afford to leave the house, given you won't be working that's really not good.

I’d go to live in France, I have some friends who lived in Challonges (sp) and went to work in Geneva every day just to get some value.
My brother’s gf lives there whilst he’s in Zurich and he says it’s pricey compared to his place. He spent 10 years in Tokyo and reckons Switzerland in more expensive

EDIT but def give it a go, I would in your position got to be better than the UK for the next couple of years!

Also I used to get threatening letters from the residents association about my hedge been 10cm too wide and things like that, every single thing has a rule. Its serious, they can get you kicked out of your rental!

I've lived near Lausanne for the last 15 years so feel free to PM me if you have any questions. Firstly, Geneva isn't really Switzerland to most Swiss, it's pretty cosmopolitan. French speaking Switzerland is way more relaxed than the German speaking part too. Whilst the Swiss can be a bit odd, the horror stories about neighbours ruling your life are more of a Zurich problem imo.

I've never paid 30€ for a cocktail and my root canal last year was just over a grand. Health insurance is expensive, I pay 400chf a month but Swiss healthcare is very good. One thing to be aware of is that if you are unemployed, you will need accident insurance as well, this could be expensive, employers pay it for their employees, but not normally spouses...:-(

Unless your wife needs to be very close to the office, I would guess that you will end up a little way out of Geneva. There is a small ex-pat scene in Nyon (20km) and Gland (25km) has a British shop. Rental prices can be high, and having a dog could complicate things. If you buy a house you can sell it when you like, but within 5 years you will be taxed on any profit. Prices are pretty stable so this won't be a huge problem, the biggest problem could be finding the 20% deposit...
I wouldn't recommend bringing a car with you long term, a lot of car parks are underground and ticket barriers can be an issue.

Covid restrictions notwithstanding it's a great place to live, the climate is way better than the UK, the lake scene in summer is great and of course there are mountains...:-)

If you haven't already found it, this site is a useful resource:
English Forum

Glocals is/was a social meetup site. It's a bit cliquey imo but still a good way to meet people.
GLocals

Can't speak for Switzerland but I live Norway which also has a rep for being expensive and beaurecratic. My tip for living in such is that if you do it you need to accept that living there, you'll need to live by local rules if you want to enjoy it. If you're constantly comparing costs and culture back to the UK you will inevitably spend all your time unhappy and whinging. It isn't the UK, accept it for the good and the bad. My tip to ease that is to avoid expat societies etc. - try to go local

Thanks to all. Living in France is no longer an option now we're non-EU, according to the job info that's just been updated.

Job is circa 120k and we have a big chunk in cash. I think that seems a reasonable start. Was only talking broad strokes previously.

Too many many nay sayers here for me. Also job is actually outside Geneva - Vaud.

What wbo said is very true. People struggle moving from a large city to N Wales or The Dales.

I think the naysayers are actually saying go there, enjoy it but don't be under any illusions that it will be easy to adapt and although the salary sounds great it's very expensive there compared to anywhere in the UK. Go with your eyes fully open.

It sounds great. Have fun

Too many many nay sayers here for me.

Classic STW. Ask for input, then reject it. 🙄

Anyway, as ElShal says :

I think the naysayers are actually saying go there, enjoy it but don’t be under any illusions ... although the salary sounds great it’s very expensive there compared to anywhere in the UK. Go with your eyes fully open.

Great scenery - AWFUL people.

We (me, wife 2 kids) lived in Switzerland for 2.5yrs a while back. We were in Basel (German-speaking part of CH), but we travelled around a lot - to every part of the country.

As Beanum said, GVA is VERY much more cosmopolitan than the rest of CH.

We found living there really hard. As others have already said, the Swiss are insular, very regimented/hierarchical, not that open or friendly to foreigners, and often quite racist.

We've lived in 5 different countries and had no problems fitting in in 4 of them, but our overriding impression of the Swiss is that they are culturally, politically, geographically and philosophically hemmed in.

These days we have 3 kids who were born in 3 different countries, we speak 4 languages and have lived in 5 countries. We'd definitely move overseas again. But Switzerland? NO WAY!!!

The Swiss are all, without question, insufferable trolls!

the Swiss are all, without question, insufferable trolls!

Ten years being a member on here seems like the perfect training then.....

I thought Trolls were Scandi folklore not Hansel & Gretel styli??

The Vaud is a nice area but the best thing is their cars all have VD on the reg plate..... juvenile I know but makes this rapidly approaching 50yo idiot laugh

the undercurrent of racism, the overt politeness and rigid societal structures

Sounds like Kent

insular, very regimented/hierarchical, not that open or friendly to foreigners, and often quite racist.

Or could be Sussex

Very conservative and selfish/strict

Possibly wouldn't apply north of Watford

a bit odd and not too fond of foreigners

Pretty much anywhere in the UK

freedom, living your life the way you want, and resistant to living and working only in the path pre-determined by authorities and banks

Is this how it works in Sheffield?

Traffic getting round the lake is a nightmare

M25 anyone?

You’ll barely be able to afford to leave the house

Find out what you can and cannot do

culturally, politically, geographically and philosophically hemmed in

Quite normal when you live on an island.

Edit: Also, what wbo said.

Job is circa 120k and we have a big chunk in cash.

Are you suggesting you are happy to burn that cash?

I know someone who lived there for the best part of 15 years in Lausanne. She earned a lot working for Olympic Committee, which also gave her a bit of a play ‘girl’ lifestyle.

She’s been back in the UK a few years now, no money in the bank but good memories of days on the lake in sped boats etc, winters nipping out to ski

But on the money you are describing you are going to be doing lots of walking and no skiing/flash existence

I’ve spent a couple of days in Geneva itself, I didn’t like it, you can see the hills but you are not in them, kind of a bit pointless IMO

I've been investigating a Swiss move over the past year for work and my guess would be that 120k CHF would work out maybe a bit less than £45k in terms of free cash once everything is factored in. The forum Beanum linked to above was a really good resource, from reading that my expectation is that finding somewhere decent to live would be the biggest headache - limited rental stock, very expensive, and recommendations are needed.

With one of us not working I'd worked out a rough conversion factor of ~3X current salary to end up in a similar place financially, so you're maybe 15k CHF worse off. However, the folk who have actually lived there would be better placed than me to advise.

To avoid any accusations of naysaying (😉) I will add that we're still keen to do it if it works with my job (COVID put everything on hold). Neither of us is particularly sociable so the locals being frosty wouldn't really bother us too much, and the QOL improvement seems quite significant vs the UK from speaking to other people who've made the move. We don't have kids though so schooling isn't something we need to worry about.

It isn’t the UK, accept it for the good and the bad. My tip to ease that is to avoid expat societies etc. – try to go local

This is 100% correct. When I moved from Spain to the UK I did exactly this.

Too many many nay sayers here for me.

🙄🙄🙄

Actual experience of people who have done it or are close to people who’ve done it not good enough for you?

Can your modify your business so you can run it from Switzerland? Also you could consider renting your current home out whilst your away so you have something to return to in the future if that’s what you choose to do

Naysayers? Just seems to be people sharing their actual experiences!

For reference, we have lived in Holland, Denmark, United States, Panama, Colombia as well as Switzerland, so hardly “comparing to the UK” as some above are claiming!

I've never lived in Switzerland and wouldn't, but that's because I've lived/worked in four other countries which appealed more. If you're determined to learn the languages and go local, do it.

Find a good home for the dog, sell up, move out. Rent a basic appartement which is within a walk of work for your partner, be modest, keep things simple. If your partner doesn't object don't worry about not working, she will probably quite like not having to worry about shopping, cleaning, admin... because it will all be done when she gets home so you'll be free to do whatever you enjoy doing together. I haven't worked for 18 years, Madame have never pushed me to get another job and the bank balance says I don't need to.

Join in with whatever you do now locally. Join an MTB club, even a roadie club, do dance classes, join a walking/montaineering club, x-c ski... . The Swiss can be a bit dull, I know a few, but there are enough enthusiastic exceptions to drive a social scene anywhere on this planet.

My advice always to people thinking of doing this is "do not sell your UK house for 2 years" the reason being if it does not work out having your house here to come back to makes returning easy. House price inflation in the UK could easily price yo out of returning to a similar house.

House price inflation in the UK could easily price yo out of returning to a similar house.

Or if house prices fall you could come back to a bargain. Check out the long term Swiss Franc : GB pound rate. Would you bet against that?

Do it! Not often these opportunities come up. I'm currently on expat experience number 2 and often think about the life experiences I'd have missed out on by staying in the UK in my secure bubble.

As others have said, it's important that the sums add up, but there is some element of risk in everything.

Best thing I ever did was move abroad and do everything properly, like residence and state health care. I wouldn't sell a uk house though, or just buy a smaller uk one. You never know what's going to happen.

Top advice above 're avoiding expat hangouts, always go local where poss.

No idea 're Geneva but everything is priced according to local wages, so if you earn locally and avoid touristy places, it all evens out.

Good luck with the venture.

I lived and worked in Berne for a year. As everyone else has said it is expensive and everything is expensive so it is hard to take a cheap option even if you wanted to.

Also I did not find a nice local person in the entire time I was there. It was like finding yourself stuck in an old peoples home full of festering racists.

I got pulled into an argument where one of my Swiss work colleagues was explaining to some dark skinned people with beards that the new rule banning mosques was not anti-Islamic but was to retain the architectural purity of Switzerland.

I agreed whole heartedly that they should preserve beautiful architecture and the first two things that should be pulled down was that concrete monstrosity near the central square and that eye sore church also in raw concrete. The concrete monstrosity was the Swiss Central bank and when my colleague realised what I was saying he went white and walked off. The next day he asked to leave my team at work.

8 years is CH - moved back in 2011. Zürich not Geneva.

Geneva is slightly up its own arse - more so than Zürich. Apartments are hard to find - hence very expensive. When I was there there was a time when there was only 15 apartments for rent in GVA.
Obviously, you can live in France - but it will depend on you work permit.
You need to do more homework- medical insurance for a family will be impressive. 100k CHF seems a lot - but it’s not. A beer is around 9 Swiss, McDs is about 14 CHf...
Rent is 2500k chf per month upwards. 2.5k doesn’t get you much.
When I was there my secretary came to see me - alone with people to support, to claim she was on the breadline. She earned 80k p.a. She claimed she could not afford basic food and clothing- and HR upped her salary.
The locals are superficially friendly - but the Swiss are very odd people. Extremely money and status aware - and they will treat you as a lower class.
It is a stunningly beautiful country - the MYB , motorcycling and snowboarding was brilliant.
I was happy to have the experience- but happy to be home.
I was being paid a lot more than 100k chf.

There are some gems on this thread:

We found living there really hard. As others have already said, the Swiss are insular, very regimented/hierarchical, not that open or friendly to foreigners, and often quite racist.

But the Swiss are a bit odd and not too fond of foreigners.

Also I did not find a nice local person in the entire time I was there. It was like finding yourself stuck in an old peoples home full of festering racists.

The locals are superficially friendly – but the Swiss are very odd people. Extremely money and status aware – and they will treat you as a lower class.

You guys sure you're talking about Switzerland rather than Solihull?

Well, as someone who was brought up in Solihull , I can do a direct compare and contrast. The country side in CH is way better, the beer is a lot worse, but there is the same aloofness about cars and jewellery ....

As my Swiss colleague said one night “ I would see you as a friend, but I have all the friend I need. My school friends, my army friends and my adult friends. The trouble with expats is that they come and go, so why bother”

Just as everywhere, there was good and bad - I ended up living in a village just next to the strong hold of the SVP - in the Züri oberland. My wife was threatened by a local farmer - and I was instructed by neighbours not to involve the police.

That said, I still have friends who live there - and will remain living there for ever. But they worked in the Pharma industry - and as a result the cost of life was a minor detail.

It is up to the OP to decide - I have no regrets about living there ( twice) but I am happy to be back. But 100k CHF is not a lot to run a family on, getting a job as a support person to the main bread winner is not easy. I would suggest that you need 160k CHF upwards - depending on what you employer is offering as part of the package .

Edukator _ where do you live in CH? And which bit of Solihull did you live in?
I think if you live in the big cities life is very much the expat circuit. I know many who absolutely love it - and by now will have Swiss passports.

I have only been to Zurich airport so know nothing. Do you want an adventure or to make money or both? It sounds like you probably will not really in make much money but you could have an adventure. Personally if I was moving somewhere for an adventure I'd aim for outside Europe so that I can do short holidays to places that would currently be long haul.

The Brick makes a good point - how old you are plays an important part. If you want an adventure, then go (with some caveats).
CH is very safe - it’s a great place to raise kids.

Also go and have a look at the English Forum.ch
https://www.englishforum.ch/

As my Swiss colleague said one night “ I would see you as a friend, but I have all the friend I need. My school friends, my army friends and my adult friends. The trouble with expats is that they come and go, so why bother”

I have also heard this coming from Danes (I live in DK) and think it is probably valid for any country where Brits move to work but do not learn the language fluently and then leave after a few years. I think to get beyond the work acquaintance stage wherever you move to, you need to become conversationally fluent in the language and make a serious effort to become part of where you live, which probably very few people actually do, so end up feeling isolated. I'm sure there's an aspect of oh here's another Brit who's moved here for the better quality of life/money but will be gone in a few years and can't be bothered learning the language properly, as an additional barrier to overcome.

Definitely hold onto the house you have - renting it out will cover the mortgage.
You need a bolt hole - just in case. After a few years you can then make this decisions.

I’ve also lived (for 2 yrs) and worked in Germany for 8 yrs - which I found a much easier place to be accepted. Oddly, despite what people thing about the Germans, it a pretty progressive place. They are social, they like to party, they dress worse than us, and there is less of the racism / sexism of the state in the South.
I would have been happy to move there permanently

In true STWfashion I'd say have a go though I've only visited for holidays. Rent your house and get involved with the locals. Ex pats always seem to be money obsessed whiners or people who can accept they are no longer in the UK and have a nice time.

You feel integrated when someone is sounding off about immigration in your presence and you gently have to remind them that there's an immigrant standing in front of them.

I was living/working in Spain in 1989. Madame, girlfriend then now wife, had a house in the UK. I persuaded her to sell it. We could have bought a better house cheaper at any time in the next five years (check out a graph). In the following 31 years I doubt we've accumulated a year in the UK and the cash from the house sale helped make some very good choices.

Ich auch, ich fuhle mich wohl in Deutschland. Ich fahre oft da druben in Urlaud, mein son hat zwei jahre lang in Berlin studiert und traumt jetzt von 'n ruckzug. Der is DJ und Produzent, besserer Ecosystem gibt's nicht.

Ich bin mit BigJim einverstanden, Expats sind und bleiben zu oft Ausländer. Gibt es en art von Parrallelgesellshaft in vielen Stäten, die Migliedern sind da um Geld zu verdienen und dann verschwinden mit keine langfristige Beitrag oder investitionen. Manchmal sind sie angeber, laut und haben wenig Respkect für local Kultur und gesellshaft, nur manchmal, kein Pflicht so zu sein.

Hier bei STW gibt es die die gut integriert sind und auch Expats. Die die haben ein Stattseinbürgerung, Kinder in der Schule... . Und auch die die haben immer noch 'n gelb Nummershcild hinter.

Language is the key to feeling at home anywhere. Are watching the BBC or France 24 in French this evening Rone?

gelb Nummershcild hinter.

Are they Dutch?

😉

Language is the key to feeling at home anywhere.

Urlaud? Nummershcild?

Aus welcher Sprache stammen diese Wörter?

iolo (I can also reply in Welsh and Portuguese). - living in Austria and loving it

There's only one language I don't make typos in, and it ain't English or German, it's the one my computer spell checker defaults to. 🙂

I'm really surprised there aren't any more serious faults in there, my use of gender, genetive accuasative blah blah in German is pretty random. Living in Austria, Iolo, you probably sound horrible even if it's gramatically correct. 😉 Alpin manages to sound Bayerisch even when he types.

Und einem gelb kennzeichnen vorne? Wie denken sie über dass?

Het spijt mij, mijn duits werdt heel slecht na vier jaar in Nederland...

FWIW I agree with pretty much everything about integrating, and keeping reasonably clear of 'ex-pats'.

No point hanging on to house. There's barely any mortgage. I would sooner have the capital and option to use the money and savings if needed. I'm pretty good financially and pretty liquid. So that may suit others but not me.

Also I don't think the housing market will keep on exploding to come back to in the medium term. (I know that's speculative but so is being a landlord.) I run my own business and it's so a bit of capital is handy.

Anyway - had some great advice from someone who lives out there on the forum. Thanks for that.

I did make an error earlier and confuse the Canton of Geneva with the city. So that should make it a bit easier.

You live and learn.

I hope it all works out for you.

Once settled in, will you let STWers camp in your garden and show them the trails?

😉

will you let STWers camp in your garden

There will be a law that prevents that

Be nice !

IIRC the OP is a Crypto squillionaire, so don't think money will be a problem.

No point hanging on to house. There’s barely any mortgage.

Surely even more reason to keep it and rent it...that's your income while you don't work?

If anything should give you an insight into how half of the Swiss folk think...

BBC linky

Backward, racist, NIMBYist toss bags....well, half of them anyway.