Possible heracy* - 1100/11/11 or Remembrance Sunday, but not both.

Funny was just thinking same thing. Was in London on 11th visiting Science museum with my daughter and they sounded last post, everybody stopped and it went quiet. Very powerful. Now I’m taking a break from some DIY and having a coffee on my sofa - not sure whether to start up the drill till after 11 but surely 4 minutes is a bit much of a good thing…..

My amusing story...
My uncle was always a joker and when he was diagnosed with cancer he obviously confronted it head on. On his first trip to the hospital he arrived in the waiting room which was sat in stoney silence.
To lighten the mood he announced to the whole room that they were a miserable bunch and to cheer up...as was his way.
My long suffering auntie had to quietly tell him it was 11am on the 11th of November.

Keep both. One tends to initiate a quiet moment of reflection in the middle of normal life (at work, school, the post office, wherever), and the other allows people to organise to be together for remembrance, if they wish.

I don't remember 11/11 being such a thing in my youth, and that was with my dad being in the RAF.

Much easier to shut Whitehall and town and village centres on a Sunday.

I was marshalling the village road closure this morning - first time I've never had to explain to a driver that the road was closed and why, which was nice.

My BIL is odd. He's a Faulkland Veteran, although he wasn't posted there till after the war had finished, never saw any active service, and he was only a radio operator. It's not as though he was in the Navy all that long - what ever minimum service is. Anyway, at every 'event' he rolls out his Uniform and is there carrying the flag. My other BIL was a paratrouper who saw lots of active service, but it a right messed up ****er.

I find the religious element of Remembrance Sunday quite unpleasant after attending a couple of public ones at local war memorials when I've had the day off work. I kind of think that the one thing that a soldier who made the ultimate sacrifice would want is for it not to happen to another family, and that's what I think we should reflect on, not bloody Jesus.

I'm also not convinced that modern politicians who stand at the Cenotaph see it as anything more than a media opportunity.

But since it happens again and again and again and again, I don't think anyone is prepared to learn from it. Keep it at 11am on the 11/11 and let people reflect quietly at that time by themselves.

Keep both; +1 for kelvin's post ^^^

My amusing story…
My uncle was always a joker and when he was diagnosed with cancer he obviously confronted it head on. On his first trip to the hospital he arrived in the waiting room which was sat in stoney silence.
To lighten the mood he announced to the whole room that they were a miserable bunch and to cheer up…as was his way.
My long suffering auntie had to quietly tell him it was 11am on the 11th of November.

😁

I was up a ladder painting a window on my neighbour's house a few years ago. Had a little radio with me, at 11am the radio went silent. Across the road is an old guy with Tourette's. Well you can guess the rest... the pressure of silence must've been too much for the poor guy as he erupted into a barrage of F words. Nearly fell of my ladder laughing.

I'm happy with both, I don't think we should discard the legacy of WW2.

It isnt't "both" though it is now "all three". Some places pause on Sunday some on the 11th. Possibly some on both dates. Plus the organised Sunday events.

I’m happy with both, I don’t think we should discard the legacy of WW2.

Agree with both, but remembrance is not just about WW2 😞 over 7000 members of the UK forces have died on operations and in nearly every year since it ended.

The 11/11/11 thing is even less relevant now than it ever was* as the remembrance is now about the fallen in all wars. Just allocate the 2nd Sunday in November and have done with it.

* It didn't even mark the end of the war/dying of WW1

I think it's important to remember but it's getting very commoditized over the last few years, probably since the 2018, 100 year anniversary of the end of the first world war. Passed a Gammon pub on the way home today with lest we forget flags hanging from the upstairs windows, same pub where the landlady was prosecuted during lock down for breaking the rules. It does seem to be a lot of virtue signalling for some, probably proper sombre remembrance for others.

As a above the church can keep out of it and ideally the politicians but that ain't going to happen.

I guess if 4 minutes out of your year is a bit much, then maybe keep pootling about and doing what ever you consider more important.
Me, I was on a bike ride today and I didn’t stop at 11.
I was at a Veterans function on Friday, paid my respects and thoughts then. (We write the name of our fallen on the back of a cross, while remembering them and what they gave for this country). I then went to the cenotaph at 2pm this afternoon.

I was with a handful of falklands veterans (among guys from other wars and conflicts) at the function on Friday. Always interesting to hear what they went through. Especially the guy who was shot in the guts and has lived with a colostomy bag the rest of his life. My dad was shot twice, one bullet clean straight through him the other one hit his armoured vehicle and he now has 100’s of tiny pieces of metal inside his left hand side of his body. While he was serving, it was actually a snake bite (cobra) that almost killed him.
My best mate, former Royal Marine Sgt, poor guy isn’t too good. Blames himself for a number of his troop not making it home from Afghan. One of the guys stood on an IED, my friend was badly injured in that, lost lower leg, skin all over his body was badly burnt. But I think having to crawl around on the floor trying to find the body parts of the boys your responsible for must have been terrible.
I could go on. And I know 4 minutes is a massive inconvenience, so on behalf of the other soldiers, sailors and airmen, please accept my apologies. Hopefully the government will listen to your comments and reduce it so your only impacted for a single 2 minutes out of your incredibly busy and important lives.

It’s obviously not about the actual time spent in silence.

Remembrance has always made me feel uneasy as it’s partly remembering those who died in horrific circumstances, but often it feels equally like it fetishises war and British jingoism, especially when politicians fall over themselves to wear poppies earlier each year (perhaps that particular trend has eased recently?).

I say this from a position of ignorance not really knowing anyone (except long-dead grandparents) who served in wars. So honestly I don’t really know what to think about it all. A lot of people seem to think it’s very important so I go along with it without ever really understanding it. A lot of modern life is like that, come to think of it.

Keep both but don't use it as a reason to show off the militaries latest weaponry.

Should be 'remembrance' for the horrors of war, not "look what terrible things we could do with this lot!"

I'd also think of banning military uniforms and medals.

I guess if 4 minutes out of your year is a bit much, then maybe keep pootling about and doing what ever you consider more important.
Me, I was on a bike ride today and I didn’t stop at 11.
I was at a Veterans function on Friday, paid my respects and thoughts then. (We write the name of our fallen on the back of a cross, while remembering them and what they gave for this country). I then went to the cenotaph at 2pm this afternoon.

I was with a handful of falklands veterans (among guys from other wars and conflicts) at the function on Friday. Always interesting to hear what they went through. Especially the guy who was shot in the guts and has lived with a colostomy bag the rest of his life. My dad was shot twice, one bullet clean straight through him the other one hit his armoured vehicle and he now has 100’s of tiny pieces of metal inside his left hand side of his body. While he was serving, it was actually a snake bite (cobra) that almost killed him.
My best mate, former Royal Marine Sgt, poor guy isn’t too good. Blames himself for a number of his troop not making it home from Afghan. One of the guys stood on an IED, my friend was badly injured in that, lost lower leg, skin all over his body was badly burnt. But I think having to crawl around on the floor trying to find the body parts of the boys your responsible for must have been terrible.
I could go on. And I know 4 minutes is a massive inconvenience, so on behalf of the other soldiers, sailors and airmen, please accept my apologies. Hopefully the government will listen to your comments and reduce it so your only impacted for a single 2 minutes out of your incredibly busy and important lives.

Well said, that man.
If you can’t be bothered - fair enough. But you are being disingenuous about where you freedoms today came from.
Those who have died were ordinary folks hoping they were doing the right thing - they weren’t the establishment singing “I vow to me, my country “
People gave their lives - and gave up their chances of a living legacy so that everyone on here can moan about tories / heating/ car drivers / gender / the price of stuff/ Brexit/ Scottish referendum

I find the religious element of Remembrance Sunday quite unpleasant after attending a couple of public ones at local war memorials when I’ve had the day off work. I kind of think that the one thing that a soldier who made the ultimate sacrifice would want is for it not to happen to another family, and that’s what I think we should reflect on, not bloody Jesus.

Our service always talks about praying for it never being needed again, but courage, discipline and compassion if it comes to it. No real "preaching" as such, quite thought provoking. Especially as the ladt vicar was German.

Keep both but don’t use it as a reason to show off the militaries latest weaponry.

I have never, ever, seen that at a Remembrance Parade. Even when we lived on RAF bases.

If you can’t be bothered – fair enough. But you are being disingenuous about where you freedoms today came from.

Couldn't agree less!

You can be perfectly aware of the history of the UK, the many wars and the deaths and still be ambivalent towards remembrance day.

You can be perfectly aware of the history of the UK, the many wars and the deaths and still be ambivalent towards remembrance day.

You can also have been involved in a war and be ambivalent about the ceremonies rather than the silence, not all veterans put on their medals and parade.
To my knowledge, my father who is a Korean War veteran has never done so, indeed I don’t think he has ever been to any reunion or any organised event of any kind including Remembrance Sunday since leaving the army in 1954. He does observe the two minutes on the 11th mostly but it was always left to us to choose growing up and I am the same as him.
I have his medals which have not left their boxes, along with his fathers’ WW1 medals.

Here’s my reason for a bit of silence. Same name as me too, my Grandad. Durham Light Infantry.

https://flic.kr/p/BMqXVP

I Remember when I was a kid in the scouts during the mid to late 70's we attended remembrance Sunday.

The way I remember it is that many people taking part would have lost people they would have known. So as much as it was a collective remembrance, the real meaning of the event seemed to be about more personal connections to those who had died.

There are so few people left w/o can actually remember the world wars, and far fewer people have died in subsequent conflicts so I understand why those who have a connection to subsequent conflicts might find solace with rmemberance day but that isn't most people.

I had a couple of great uncles who served in WW2 and only found out a few weeks ago that one of them had had a hell of a time in Normandy, my own father was ground crew in Aden and saw some grizly things but never told me about them.

I don't think either of them expected me to remember on their behalf. I also don't remember the 'others dying for our freedom' narrative being as strong back in the day. As I said, I think remembrance Sunday was something more connected to grief.

There is a danger that we are being asked to remember something we never knew. Knowing about something is not 'knowing' it.

My dad survived WW2 - just. He was RAF ground crew in Singapore when it fell to the Japanese and he was incarcerated in Changi. He never talked about it, but there was a paperback book about it around the house, which I read when still quite young; he died when I was 13, and the level of brutality was unbelievable, he was extraordinarily lucky to survive it. My step-brother survived his ship being bombed in the Falklands, but I do have one family member who never saw it through, and I try to make a point of marking his grave every year.

It’s difficult to make out now, but it says

“Also of DICKIE BATES

KILLED IN ACTION AT ARRAS

9 APRIL 1917 AGE 20

I have his pocket knife, which he probably had most of his short life, judging by the wear on the blade, and which is engraved with his name and date and location of his death. These are real, personal and tangible things which are worth remembering, of just one out of millions, every one of whom left grieving families behind. And continue to do so.

Rememberance is not just for the distant dead, it’s also for the recent and the present, due to the actions of power-hungry despots and psychopathic narcissists who kill and maim for their own personal aggrandisment.

‘Twas ever thus.

That’s all my family in that grave, except my mum and dad, going back over a century, in a tiny little village. I like to spend time there, it’s wonderfully peaceful, and I’d like to end up there myself one day.

my own father was ground crew in Aden and saw some grizly things but never told me about them.

Mine too, also served in Cyprus during the EOKA times, came out just in time to avoid being recalled to support the Harriers sentbto the Falklands.

Pondering the same. I listened to people tell kids why it's important but the messages were very mixed. It is a valid question, should remenberance Sunday become the day/time the nation remembers?
When I was in primary school a WW1 veteran came and spoke.
But we are about a decade away from the equivalent being a Falklands veteran. The armistice was a very important point in history but how relevant to people is it. I do feel it muddies the waters somewhat.

I Sort of Happened to end up observing both, was near a local war memorial on Friday so stood for that, they were actually pretty rapid about it, only really took up 10 minutes there wasn't really any religion to the proceedings, there were still plenty of cars whizzing about 15 meters away so it had no impact on those who were not so bothered.

Sunday I just shut up for a couple of minutes, again no great imposition, but I didn't feel the need to attend anywhere.

Keep both but don’t use it as a reason to show off the militaries latest weaponry.

Should be ‘remembrance’ for the horrors of war, not “look what terrible things we could do with this lot!”

I'd be interested in examples of where you've seen that happen during remembrance? Never in my experience. Are you thinking of North Korea or Russia?

I’d also think of banning military uniforms and medals.

As a veteran my medals ONLY get worn on remembrance Sunday and never with uniform. They are a connection with comrades who served alongside me, a link to theatres and operations I served in including one where I lost several friends.  They are an important part of my remembrance. I think people who haven't served sometimes think medals are showy bling people like to show off. No one I know thinks like that. Mine make me sad and reflective and tbh a bit uncomfortable and self conscious when I wear them. But they are part of a strong bond with others who have shared experience with me. I'm sorry,  but you won't be banning me from wearing them I'm afraid.

Interesting responses - thanks.

Predictably a few contributors have rolled out their default, remembering is good/bad (delete as appropriate) response - which missed the point. And the teeth itching 'if 4mins is too much for you' guff, which could not have missed the point more if they had tried.

The point I was making was that 1100/11/11 is specific and pertinent to a single war over a century ago and then we go again on the next available Sunday. I absolutely think we should be doing something, just questioning the sense in doing it (kind of) twice if the act is to feel properly meaningful now and for future generations. I don't mean this to be demeaning to the occasion - but it's a bit like when your significant birthday falls in the week and you say you are not going to celebrate it then (but you still do a bit) but have a proper celebration at the weekend, which feel a bit fake. Neither are as good as a birthday that falls on a weekend proper or you take the day off work midweek and go large then if that's when it falls . I suppose it depends on the world you live in, but in my little world both are marked quite significantly (wreath laying, last post, sombre ties etc). For other people I suppose you may or may not pause for a couple of minutes as you walk around Tesco on 1100/11/11, or stop the office bants for a couple on minutes then crack on.

I'm also I suppose slightly conflicted with the theme. As someone who saw some active service I absolutely get the remembering of the fallen element. But the older I get (is that objectivity or passage of time?) I'd also be pretty keen on remembrance day and peace day becoming combined - a kind of 'remember the horrors and the loss; now lets celebrate efforts made to not inflict the same on our current youth' day.

I find the religious element of Remembrance Sunday quite unpleasant

Then do your remembering on the 11th? Remembrance Sunday is, after all, a church parade. Many countries France, Canada for instance do their remembrance parade on the 11th. (It's a national holiday in France i think) which seems a better option if you don't want the religiosity

Why do they show the minutes silence as part of the [i]rugby highlights[/i] programme? Baffles me that.

@convert, I get the point you are making and didn't really address it in my post above yours, which was answering points from another poster. Although I kind of agree that the 11/11 armistice is becoming less relevant, my own view is it still has a place. It is a very brief moment in the day but somehow feels like more of a collective national moment to acknowledge service and sacrifice. Something the public can participate in if they want (or not - no judgement). It is quite poignant when train stations, shops, businesses, the radio all stop nationally for 2 minutes. It is just 2 minutes during the working day and not that disruptive.

Remembrance Sunday is different in that it is more formal, and more for those who choose to go to services or parades or watch the national act of remembrance on TV. If you are not interested it is easy to avoid and that's fine. It's the more important of the two for me. In a nutshell I see armistice Day as a chance for the public to remember or pay respects  (if they want to) and remembrance Sunday for veterans, the serving and their families.  There's a place for both in my view.

Remembrance Sunday is different in that it is more formal, and more for those who choose to go to Services or parades or watch the national act of remembrance on TV.

Is it though? Is it not now the default practice to pause/go quiet from whatever you are doing, regardless of if you have gone to a remembrance event, at 1100 on Sunday too? Maybe if you are always at a Remembrance event (as that's the one that's important to you) you'd not have clocked that.

I can see the point. Armistice day is a distant, forgotten memory and let's face it, has been warped back to what the establishment wanted us to remember rather than the reality of what people came home from or not.

Personally it makes me uncomfortable, not because of what it represents but the way in which it has been hijacked and/or commercialised by certain elements. A lot of the focus seems to be on remembering "them" rather than the hard lessons learnt.

the actions of power-hungry despots and psychopathic narcissists who kill and maim for their own personal aggrandisment.

This. Nobody died for our freedom in the first world war, it was a glorified family feud.

Nor Iraq. Both times.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples. Nobody really remembers, or at least not anyone in a position of power.

I think people who haven’t served sometimes think medals are showy bling people like to show off.

You can probably thank the Walts for that.

Is it though? Is it not now the default practice to pause/go quiet from whatever you are doing, regardless of if you have gone to a  event, at  on Sunday too? Maybe if you are always at a Remembrance event (as that’s the one that’s important to you) you’d not have clocked that.

You are correct, I hadn't clocked that as I'm normally at a parade. Not this year, I had knee surgery a couple of days ago and am laid up so watched it on telly. I suppose for someone who has no service connections, but who still wants to pay respects choose one or the other would be my suggestion. No need to observe both unless you want to. Personally if you want to ride your mountain bike do DIY or whatever on Remembrance Sunday I have no issue. The idea that there should be any compulsion to observe is the antithesis of what it's all about IMO.

Personally I can separate the politics of conflict from the individual sacrifice that came about because of that politics. I choose to take a moment to reflect on that sacrifice (and those willing to serve and potentially make that sacrifice), but I don't reflect on the 'glory of war' because there is none.

I choose to take a moment to reflect on that sacrifice (and those willing to serve and potentially make that sacrifice), but I don’t reflect on the ‘glory of war’ because there is none.

100% You'd be hard pressed to find a veteran parading on Remembrance Sunday who would disagree with any of that 👍

IMHO its should be 11:00 11/11 and not the Sunday. To me everything stopping for a couple of minutes is far more powerful act of remembrance than a parade and a vicar wittering on the next Sunday. I get that small local parades would be harder as many of those involved would be working most years but certainly I see no reason why events like the Cenotaph cant be on the correct day

I've always found a Sunday memorial quite moving and a chance to reflect and learn.. I've not been to one that was overly Christian preaching, but I've been to many which reflect on the sacrifice, bravery, camaraderie and hurt which conflict causes.
I personally reflect on my grandpa during the silence.
I also make a point of looking out for cap badges, medal colours and uniforms. I then look them up, learning about the people, military organisations and conflicts represented. I've always done this with my kids - unlike me, they've grown up not knowing someone in family who served.

but I don’t reflect on the ‘glory of war’ because there is none.

I've never felt this was a factor in Remembrance, to be honest. Merely the sacrifice, and the suffering

Much easier to shut Whitehall and town and village centres on a Sunday.

That actually sounds like an argument for doing it on 11/11 - convenience and getting on with business should not really be the priority.

I may be completely wrong about this but I always assume that the Sunday element was a religious memorial (not being that way inclined I've never been) and as fewer and fewer people attend church it may be that we lose the poignance of the Sunday closest to the 11th?  On the other hand when the 11th falls on a school day, every year a new audience are there to be reminded about its significance.

its should be 11:00 11/11

Why?

D-Day, VE day, VJ day are all fading away. Arguably so should armastice. But keep remenberance Sunday for all conflicts.

I feel quite ashamed as i was out on the roadbike yesterday and a complete bellend pulled out in front of me just as it hit 11 and i was passing an outdoor remembrance service. I didn't realise until too late and they will have heard very clearly a lot of coarse four-letter words hurled at the driver by me.
Not my proudest moment

This year was the first year since I can remember (35ish) I haven't attended a Remembrance Sunday parade/service/event.

With every passing year the emotional weight of the day has been steadily getting heavier as the list of my friends has got longer; this year I felt I needed a break from it so I went riding for the day.

That provoked the ire of some, many of whom have no idea I was with some of my friends in their moment of passing so 'remembering' isn't something I have any difficulty with, it's quite a regular occurance.

Acknowledge the important days, but let them be low key, and continue to mark Sunday as a day for collective remembrance.

For me the most important thing is to allow others to do what they see fit, free from judgement or expectation.

The 1100/11/11 completely passed me by on Friday, working in my shop and it was quite busy. But that evening I made a point on watching All Quiet On The Western Front. Couldn't get all they way through, but did finish it before attending a remembrance service at the local memorial on Sunday.

I can't see an argument for consolidation of the two tbh - they both have significance.

D-Day, VE day, VJ day are all fading away. Arguably so should armastice. But keep remenberance Sunday for all conflicts.

That's an argument that could possibly convince me.

Not specifically related but another thing.......

When you do your remembering (solo or at a gathering/service), how far do you go back? I don't think I can be the only person who subconsciously only goes as far back as WWI. And I've been thinking back to a fixed point in time (and everything since) for the last 40 odd years since the concept was introduced to me as a child. But never really consider before then. For context, the Napoleonic wars were more recent history for the first Remembrance Sundays than WWI is now.

They were brought in after WW1, so that's as far back as I think about.

And most of our wars before then were about exploiting other nations, so I'm not as sympathetic to the poor bastards sent to be slaughtered, which is wrong of me, I'm sure.

It's up to you really, My act of remembrance only goes back to WW1 and a distant relative I've only ever heard stories about and seen in photos, but I've great uncles  who died in WW2 and closer relations who've passed more recently

I used to go without fail every year, but for the last couple of years, I've preferred to reflect privately. Like RM suggests; allow others to do as they see fit with judgement.

Remembrance Sunday has been the official national act of remembrance since WW2. It is was originally moved to the Sunday during the war to preserve factory production and then retained following the war. Armistice Day wasn't really observed during my youth - there was no silence at 11 am in any school I attended and my recollection is that the Sun launched a campaign in the early 90s to revitalise the observance of silence on Armistice Day which has clearly been very successful.

Interesting. Don’t recall the Sun campaign in the 90s… but do recall the silences at school… and separate Sunday parade with the cubs, in the 70/80s. Both were part of my childhood. But I am a forces child and grew up in areas where I wouldn’t be the only forces kid in the school(s).

And most of our wars before then were about exploiting other nations, so I’m not as sympathetic to the poor bastards sent to be slaughtered, which is wrong of me, I’m sure.

Either that or the usual cock waving.

Do you have the same lack of sympathy for those sent for the same reasons in modern times?

That's a rhetorical question unless you really feel like answering it, it's only to provoke thought.

Personally, I can't seperate the fallen and the politics because they are so deeply connected, I'd say there have been very few just wars.

But that's just me, as RM said we are free to observe as we see fit.

Personally, I can’t seperate the fallen and the politics because they are so deeply connected, I’d say there have been very few just wars.

Where as I come at it from the opposite direction. Those that serve in the military don’t get to pick which wars they have to fight in, or where they get stationed to try and keep the peace. If anything, I feel even more for those who sign up and end up being sent into hopeless or pointless conflicts to die by politicians and senior staff. We should remember the senseless loss of lives, not just those who die for causes we do believe in.

I like Relapsed Maldorian's post up there.

Monroe thing to consider is how modern media and particularly television has instrumentalised these events in a way in which could not have been conceived in the 40's and 50's and even with print media, it would be interesting to compare how much coverage remembrance events received back then as compared to now.

I know the thread is about the remembrance events themselves but the conversation is definitely shaped by the media. On television remembrance Sunday becomes a month of Sunday's (excuse the pun) and that can have the effect of being overbearing and instructional but it can also have a diluting effect.

Personally, I do my remembrance nn this thread, because as much as it covers some of the complex political issues involved, it encourages actual rmemberance. The things that others have written in here that have provoked more thought in me than the structured messaging that abounds.

Though I am aware that it was those structured events that provoked the OP's question in the first place!

@kelvin

Those that serve in the military don’t get to pick which wars they have to fight in, or where they get stationed to try and keep the peace. If anything, I feel even more for those who sign up and end up being sent into hopeless or pointless conflicts to die by politicians and senior staff.
We should remember the senseless loss of lives, not just those who die for causes we do believe in.

Ah, communication breakdown, that's exactly where I come from. By politics I mean those of the people sending them in, not those at the sharp end.