[Closed] Possible crash for cash scam

Reported it?

They really don't want to do that in front of a bus, I don't think I'd like 7.5 tons of bus + 50 people running up my arse. Don't these morons also realise that almost all buses have 360 cctv coverage now?

So... you're driving too close to the car in front and then what happens next, sorry?

Massive crash for cash scam involving buses now on going at Manchester crown court.

How can you report non accidents,just near misses, like i said just be aware.

So... you're driving too close to the car in front and then what happens next, sorry?

Its not a case of driving too close its the scammer trying to force errors, only minor ones, a little bump, but then claiming afterwards for whiplash injuries. In the case of the bus - theres no reason to assume the claim for whiplash would come from a passenger, there doesn't need to be a collision just a sharp reaction from the driver - that the cctv will record - and someone can claim they took a tumble.

If you drive into the back of someone you were driving to close or not paying attention...

^ aaand we're off!

If you drive into the back of someone you were driving to close or not paying attention...

If you walk into me by accident your not paying attention. If i trip you up its not because you're not paying attention its because I chose a moment where I could trip you up. Your moving, I'm stationary - is it your fault?

The point of the scam is the create an incident that is incontestably the fault of the person who is being scammed, or at least a fault that the scammed driver's insurer won't bother to contest But the incident is not an accident- the scammer is creating the situation where the driver behind is too close to be able to react.

Fitted dash cams to our cars to record anything

my elderly parents have witnessed this, the crims are very, very good at delaying the court case too

Fitted dash cams to our cars to record anything

Both of the accidents in those videos could easily have been avoided. First by not tailgating. Second by paying attention!

Stupidly dangerous thing to do though.

Its not a case of driving too close its the scammer trying to force errors, only minor ones, a little bump,

If you weren't too close, how could there be a little bump?

It's just not possible. You run into the car in front, you're either too close or not paying enough attention, or both. It really is that simple, doesn't matter if they fake a signal, stop on a corner, turn into an aardvark or spontaneously combust.

It's easy to defend of course. The vast majority of people drive too close to the car in front, it's "normal". Stop doing that and this scam will go away.

Cougar, you seem to be a nice guy but I'm noticing you making lots of contentious posts lately.

Am I being paranoid? It's just ^that smacks of trolling. Unless of course you are driving perfection?

skip to 7:54 🙂

Am I being paranoid? It's just ^that smacks of trolling

Oh oh banhammer coming your way for daring to question the mods

If you weren't too close, how could there be a little bump?

It's just not possible. You run into the car in front, you're either too close or not paying enough attention, or both. It really is that simple, doesn't matter if they fake a signal, stop on a corner, turn into an aardvark or spontaneously combust.

I hope nobody ever brake tests you ! You'll be needing a nice slice of humble pie to accompany your arrogance.

D.

I hope nobody ever brake tests you ! You'll be needing a nice slice of humble pie to accompany your arrogance.
D.

If you weren't driving too close, why would they 'brake test' you?

I'm noticing you making lots of contentious posts lately.

Only lately? (-:

I hope nobody ever brake tests you !

I leave plenty of space between me and the car in front. So, I invite it, brake-test me.

Oh oh banhammer coming your way for daring to question the mods

Yeah, cos that always happens... oh, wait.

If you think a post is a deliberate troll, abusive, offensive or otherwise a bit naughty then don’t hesitate to email us at moderator@singletrackworld.com and we’ll have a look.

who checks the checkers.. 😉

I had some c u next Tuesday brake test me in the A9 after he forced his way in to abort an overtake that was about to cause a head on ! He then stood on his brakes and made lots of geaticulations. Then he forced an oncoming car off the road into a lay by! Incredibly bad driving all captured on film which I have to the police after reporting him, so had others. Black Merc, will post the plate as they deserve it!

6 minutes in 😯

If you weren't driving too close, why would they 'brake test' you?

Have you had a look at the title of the thread. There's a clue right there.

I leave plenty of space between me and the car in front. So, I invite it, brake-test me.

As I said...arrogance.

the scammer is creating the situation where the driver behind is too close to be able to react.

This, the scammer creates a situation that relies on you not paying attention, best way to avoid it is to pay attention. If you hit a stationary object then 99%* of the time it's your fault. Best advice to anyone on the road, expect the unexpected, assume all the others are idiots and pay attention to what you are doing in a large lump of metal.

For Scammer you could swap kid running out if you want.

*Excluding things like an object dropped off a bridge in front of you or the Tardis appearing.

assume all the others are idiots

I find that works in all aspects of life.

Only lately? (-:

I'll throw my hat into the "I drive a heroic journey daily" defendant stance.

I do drive about 40k a year work only and every day I cover the most accident-prone motorways in Britain (M60/M62/M61/M6)

I am very fortunate I get paid for the time I spend driving and a nominal amount for fuel, so I have no reason at all to drive quickly, aggressively and certainly not too close to another car. I rarely leave the inside lane and travel at safe distances, at a steady 70.

It's not sexy.

However I could easily get wrapped up in a crash scam.

I know you're smart enough to realise that's entirely possible, so stop being an arse.

I probably put the same in on those motorways before I left.

However I could easily get wrapped up in a crash scam.

I know you're smart enough to realise that's true, so stop being an arse.

Basicly youre driving along and indicate a left turn, car in front then swerves left,with no indication and then about 20 foot round the corner the car suddenly indicates and stops dead suddenly with the car behind almost hiting them, and strangely its been women drivers who are the ones not indicating and braking fast. In Liverpool

Honestly having lived on the outskirts and been in and out the city this just sounds like normal Liverpool fwit driving. Nothing out the ordinary, if you don't clock that the driver who swerved is unpredictable then you need to sharpen up a bit.

As I said...arrogance.

(over?)confidence.

I know you're smart enough to realise that's entirely possible, so stop being an arse.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No, unless I'm driving badly.

Pathetic.

For some reason you're trolling over last few weeks. I don't know why, but I can say it's not just me that thinks that.

It doesn't suit you, please stop it.

I try to keep a good distance behind the car in front in normal traffic. And as I was taught, when I stop in a queue (eg, at a roundabout) I try to leave enough gap that I can see the tyres on the vehicle in front, so that we can all move off promptly when the traffic on the roundabout clears…

So on this occasion, the traffic clears and we all move off; 2 car lengths in, the guy in front stops dead, halfway across the give way line. Slow speed impact, minor damage, legally my fault. We swap details, he's [excessively] friendly, he and his passengers say they're fine. Various other details don't seem quite right. A week later he's claiming whiplash x 3. My insurer is suspicious and it all becomes clear to me. In hindsight, I suspect he'd taken the bulbs out of his brake lights.

So, how closely do you follow the car in front when pulling away?

butcher - Member

Both of the accidents in those videos could easily have been avoided. First by not tailgating. Second by paying attention!

Don't be so obtuse...in the first clip, the driver leaves enough space to come to a complete standstill on the outside lane of a dual carridgeway. He's then hit from behind by another car, forcing him into the car in front.

I'm not knowingly trolling.

Beyond that, I couldn't say.

Don't be so obtuse...in the first clip, the driver leaves enough space to come to a complete standstill on the outside lane of a dual carridgeway. He's then hit from behind by another car, forcing him into the car in front.

Surely car overtakes pulls in front 3m away and brakes, you aint stopping. Its a forced crash.

So he shouldn't have stopped?

Perhaps he could have bunny hopped him?

I'm with Cougar in this one. If you give yourself an adequate gap between you and the car in front then no matter what they do you will not hit them. What if their engine seizes and their gear box locks at the same time - i happens so you might as well be far enoguh back to avoid it. The guy in that first video up there should have looked behind him and done an emergency lane change. Hey presto no crash.

If you give yourself

But if you cant, its your word against theirs.

But the guy in the first video stopped in good time.

What are you saying he did wrong?

The guy in the first video didn't look behind him. If he did he could have taken evasive action. i.e. changed lanes or aimed for the central barrier.

In the first video he is busy shouting and swearing at the guy in front who was either trying to cause a problem or had something go wrong. You can hear the driver getting irate and probably paying no attention to what was going on behind him, the sensible thing to have done as with any situation is to put yourself in a position not to be in danger, the distance he had left at the start of the clip was too short, that meant he had no choice but to end up stopping behind the car, more space would have given him the chance to change lane into the big gap that was on the inside.
One of the biggest things I was taught on various defensive driving courses was to avoid trouble by giving yourself room to maneuver.

The guy in the first vid could have changed lane but I think that's just getting a bit demanding really. Now the dude [i]behind[/i] must have been asleep, he got far more warning then absolutely clobbered the dude with the camera.

But in the OP's example, if someone turns left in front of you at a junction then stops and you hit them, you've screwed up. It's all low speed, changes of direction and the other car's even acting erratically in the first place. I'm not going to say I never get too close to another car because tis human to err but that, I'm confident I wouldn't hit them in a hundred retries personally.

I suppose, if I was going to cash-to-crash I'd pull in closely in front of someone then brake, take away their braking room. That, there's no realistic defence against. And ironically, it seems like if you do try and leave proper gaps on the road, some **** will fill it.

wanmankylung - Member
The guy in the first video didn't look behind him. If he did he could have taken evasive action. i.e. changed lanes or aimed for the central barrier.

You are not actually serious are you?

If it was a scam that was very nicely executed because it was the car 2 behind that "caused" the accident. I'm not 100% convinced that was a scam. I've been in the scary position of having a car die totally unexpectedly in the overtaking lane. "He" did brake - but actually that warns the car behind so isn't necessarily worse than coasting.

The second video is also not something I'd assume is a scam automatically. I've seen last minute panic lane changes / missed junctions like that - and always assume it is just incompetence. Why a complete stop? Perhaps a stall / missed gear / idiot thinking they'd reverse!

If you wanted someone to hit you surely you'd disconnect your brake lights!

(...)surely you'd disconnect your brake lights!

It would be better to fit blown bulbs.

Do not understand the people on here saying the guy that stopped was somehow at fault as I thought we had established that it is nearly 100% the guy that crashes into the backs fault, guess what someone crashed into the back of him yet somehow he is still to blame, you gotta love the driving gods on here.

Do not understand the people on here saying the guy that stopped was somehow at fault as I thought we had established that it is nearly 100% the guy that crashes into the backs fault,

Edit
It goes back to the "Died on the moral high ground" tombstone, you can be in the right and still end up dead or seriously injured. Sometimes being right isn't that important.

but he could have done more than moan and swear at the car in front

Not really a car went up the inside of him at the same time he was rear ended that was the only place he could go(hit the car then he is at fault), plus by the height of him I suspect he was in a truck which ain't as manoeverable as a car.

He was too close initially, there were 2 long gaps at the point that he was swearing away at the car in front. If he had been further away, paying attention behind and inside and thinking a bit more there was something he could have done. It doesn't excuse blame.

agreed he was too close initially but he did manage to stop, if he was further away this could still have happened because it is only with hindsight that we knew he was coming to a complete stop and lets face it if someone is stopping for no good reason on a fast road it would probably surprise you how many people would not use the other lane, as I said before there was 4 seconds between the last car passing and the next one coming(the same 4 seconds that he is wondering why this guy is slowing down) then he is going too slow to pull into the inside lane safely as the car is motoring up it.

I'm not knowingly trolling.

It's a bit like bullying then. It isn't how you perceive it. It's how others perceive it.
Your trolling always seemed a bit more subtle, but I'm not working so hard to spot it these days.

I had a woman try this on with me at a large roundabout and am firmly in the camp that anyone could be sucked in.

The woman was in front of me, plenty room between my car and hers. Nothing coming and she pulls off at a decent lick. It's a difficult junction so I follow at the same speed. Suddenly she's completely stationary and I skid to a halt. A little further round and she does exactly the same thing again. Had it been wet or had I not been completely switched on, it's entirely possible I could have tapped her bumper.

Car was a shitty old banger and so was the driver from what I could see.

I'm with Cougar on this one. Leave enough room and keep your eyes open and you won't have any problems. However I seem to be in a minority nowadays when I keep to the speed limit and leave proper stopping room. I find it amusing that people get so irate when you do this though, tailgating, weaving around looking to overtake in increasingly dangerous places as their rage increases. I do a lot of miles and I bet one of those people have been one of the STW driving gods. 😉

Cougar's right, you should leave a good gap and not crash into someone pulling an emergency stop. That's why there is presumed liability.

Only issue is that, on a motorway, that gap is big enough for a car to pull into. This happens to me often and I'm no longer leaving enough space between me and the (new) car in front.

If they then pulled an emergency stop soon after pulling in I'd go into the back of them.

This is happening more and more. I have a family member who works in insurance fraud and she was saying that reports of this have risen 600% in the last 2 years.

I had it happen to me in March of last year. I was driving along the A34 towards Oxford, very early in the morning and a small van pulled out of a layby just up ahead of me the road was dead quiet and I indicated and moved into the outside lane (dual carriageway) to overtake. Just as i got within a few car lengths i would say i was doing 70-75mph and he was doing about 55-60mph he suddenly swerved into the outside lane and did an emergency stop. Having only just previously looked in my rear view mirror when overtaking anyway i knew there was nothing behind so was able to swerve into the inside lane to avoid him. There was nothing to do with speed or stopping distance or gap to the car in front that the haters can through at this, he was clearly trying to get in an accident. I reported it to the police with his numberplate but never heard anything back.

If you give yourself an adequate gap between you and the car in front then no matter what they do you will not hit them

Nonsense. M8, M90, M9 - leave the right amount of space at peak times and someone will pull into it whether you're in inside or outside lane. Back off to create space, same thing happens again. It isn't just what you do - it is what other people do.

Rubbish - it is what you do. There is no excuse for not leaving an adequate gap. Being surrounded by ****s doent mean you should become a **** yourself. Peer pressure at its finest....

(...)surely you'd disconnect your brake lights!
It would be better to fit blown bulbs.

Not saying every accident gets investigated, but this trick is easily spotted if it does get even a cursory investigation.

Bulbs that are working at the time of the accident leave traces on the inside of the plastic lens when it breaks as they are hot. Bulbs that aren't working don't.

That relies on a decent impact obviously.

I had a woman try this on with me at a large roundabout and am firmly in the camp that anyone could be sucked in.

. . . if you're not paying attention.

Seriously, it's very unlikely (not saying impossible), but very unlikely that anyone could get taken in by this if they're paying attention and leaving sufficient room to the vehicle infront. I pay just as much attention to the rear view mirrors when I'm driving as whats infront or to the side of me. That way if something like this happens I'll know exactly where other vehicles are around me and can take appropriate avoiding action, whether that's braking, swerving, or accelerating sharply as second nature and without even thinking about it - the plan has been thought about already. If you're not confident you could avoid this sort of situation, then I'm sorry but you should really consider taking some more training.

Not saying every accident gets investigated, but this trick is easily spotted if it does get even a cursory investigation.

Bulbs that are working at the time of the accident leave traces on the inside of the plastic lens when it breaks as they are hot. Bulbs that aren't working don't.

That relies on a decent impact obviously.

Well that can't be too hard to simulate either, but I'm not going to do their homework for them!

A couple of months ago, there were 2 cars doing this at the roundabout off the M54 junction by RAF Cosford. I am overly cautious with my braking distance as it is.

wanmankylung - Member

Rubbish - it is what you do. There is no excuse for not leaving an adequate gap.

Could be wrong but I think the point was that you can only create a gap, you can't stop other people taking it- all you can do then is create another which someone else may take. Sometimes it feels downright sketchy with people swarming to get into your 2-car-lengths.

I've heard of the roundabout one where the scammer pulls away, driver behind moves forward now looking to their right, scammer then slams on, bump whiplash etc. Yes that's victim driver not paying attention.*

Surely car overtakes pulls in front 3m away and brakes, you aint stopping. Its a forced crash

Either way, intending to cause a crash is complete ****tery and the scammers should be in a lot of trouble.

*my mate suffered from this, dunno if it was a scam or just one of those things, either way since then in traffic I make a point of not even bothering to look for a gap to my right until I'm at the front of the queue.

Could be wrong but I think the point was that you can only create a gap, you can't stop other people taking it- all you can do then is create another which someone else may take. Sometimes it feels downright sketchy with people swarming to get into your 2-car-lengths

I don't see how Bruneep's second vid is cash for crash. A driver didn't know which way to go and slowed before the exit. The following driver slowed too and was hit by the third who wasn't paying attention.

I'm sure it's easy to get someone to hit you from behind, even someone as careful as Cougar, but the risk is they have a dashcam - and in the case of Bruneep's first vid a lifetime driving ban for the driver of the blue car that caused the crash by stopping in the outside lane for no reason seems appropriate.

the exit swerve was an engineered incident. both cars were iirc operating as a pair.

with a bit if luck the scammers will try some more 40 ton truck rear shunts, and instead of the N x £2000 that insurers dish out no questions asked, will find that a week in ICU with several broken bones is quite painful.

have has a few on the autobahn. overtake, cut in with seriously less than one car length, then oddly slow right down to 90kph from ca. 120. scam? dunno. but there's a point where the gap between me and the car in front is way less than a highway code 270ft, and it's 100% not my fault.

fast lane for me with 270ft gap between me and all cars in all lanes in future 🙄 then I can be sure I have stopping distance to everyone 🙄

edit: PS and a road angel. Most of the seriously insane driving is scooters.

the exit swerve was an engineered incident. both cars were iirc operating as a pair.

BTW - No surprise that many on here are blaming the victims - fairly typical of any STW 'accident' threads.

BTW - No surprise that many on here are blaming the victims

Depends on the definition of "victim"

If I'm driving along, and the car in front stops suddenly, and I run into it, it's my fault.

I may still be the "victim" of a crash for cash scam, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still my fault

That's the whole point of it surely.

If it wasn't my fault, I'd be claiming off them, and it would be a totally shit scam.

They engineer a situation, but it would rely on poor driving by the "victim" for it to play out the way they want.

I'm sure it's easy to get someone to hit you from behind, even someone as careful as Cougar

I think I may have misrepresented myself here, I'm not claiming to be perfect. We all make mistakes; I have at times driven too close to the car in front, though I do make a conscious effort to try not to. But I recognise that as my failing when I do.

I've been caught out by exactly the roundabout situation D0NK describes (I don't think it was a scammer, just an old duffer who'd started pulling out onto an empty roundabout and then stopped dead a couple of yards ahead for no discernible reason), you live and learn. It'd be easy to argue that it was their fault for driving erratically, but the blame rests wholly for me for being too close, looking round the roundabout rather than in the direction of travel, and foolishly assuming that the other driver wasn't Bellender Carlisle.

Point is, you have to assume that anyone else on the road could be about to do something randomly batshit mental. They might well be scammers deliberately trying to cause an accident, but if you plough into the back of someone else then you have to accept a degree of responsibility for that. You were going too fast, or were too close, or not paying attention, or quite probably a combination of those factors. If you weren't, the scam wouldn't work. I've done it myself many years ago, drove into the back of them at a fairly low speed. Why? I wasn't paying attention; I was trying to work out something that was going on behind me, took my eyes off the road for a fraction too long and the traffic in front of me stopped abruptly and I didn't quite get to the brake fast enough. It's so easily done, this is why braking distances are so important (and presumably why the scammers are so fond of it), if I'd have given myself more room that day then I'd almost certainly have avoided an accident.

The argument that you can't leave sufficient braking distance because of $reason is pretty thin (and not wholly relevant anyway if you're comparing motorways with regular roads). If anything that sounds more like a lane discipline issue to me; if you're in the correct lane and someone pulls out in front of you, I'm inclined to think "so?" Someone's in front of you, big whoop.

The 'overtake' challenge someone described earlier sounds particularly terrifying though. Someone swerves in front of you and jams on when you're in the middle of an overtake, you'd really need your wits about you.

Starting to wonder which STWer was the bellend that stuffed their Audi into the back of my poor little Micra the other day.

You know 80% of people are above average at driving, I'm guessing it's closer to 95% for STW people... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0001457586900047
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority

You know 80% of people are above average at driving, I'm guessing it's closer to 95% for STW people...

I wonder how many are above average at reading?

but the blame rests wholly for me for being too close

it's the lane changers that concern me. I can leave as much space as i like for the car in front, but every single car in another lane, at some point leaves me as little as zero stopping distance. think my record low is sub 1 metre, and i think that was genuinely a dippy bint that had no feel for how large her Polo was.

(re averages) Honestly I do think I'm above average, because the average seems to be really low, it doesn't imply I'm a Driving God. I don't think you can pat yourself on the back just for being above average here.

half of that scam is based on you successfully stopping. then someone else hitting you in to them.
you only have to tickle their bumper, and hey presto 4 lots of £2000 whiplash. also evidenced by several that have posted on this very forum that got whiplash in a car park ding when not even in the car!

In which case, that's not your fault, and you can join in with a whiplash claim of your own. Everyone's a winner!

Actually, what do they gain by having you in the middle in this scenario? From a blame / claim perspective, isn't that the same as having their mates just run in it them directly?

(re averages) Honestly I do think I'm above average, because the average seems to be really low, it doesn't imply I'm a Driving God. I don't think you can pat yourself on the back just for being above average here.

+1.

I said exactly that on a Speed Awareness Course, got told that this means I'm over-confident. Completely missing the point that I genuinely believe I'm an above average driver because the 'average' standard of driving is frighteningly poor. If I thought my standard of driving was comparable to the average I'd start taking the bus.

[i]You know 80% of people are above average at driving[/i]

What the hell does that mean? 20% are shit drivers? How is it measured? Safety? Courtesy? Appropriate speed? Patience? or a Clarkson measurement of Good Driving?
Jeez.

What the hell does that mean?

it means you missed the joke...

.....on a Speed Awareness Course

....I genuinely believe I'm an above average driver

A chap I used to work with got caught out in an accident. Not entirely crash for cash but he did rear end someone that had abruptly stopped in front of him. Whilst he admitted blame, he was quite surprised to be hit by a whiplash claim for 5 people, when there were only 2 in the car at the time of the accident.

I've also been involved in a 5 car shunt where I couldn't stop in time of a line of queuing traffic. Hold my hands up, my fault* and I now drive far more carefully. However, if someone is hell bent on intentionally causing a crash (or for you to take avoiding action which would otherwise be unnecessary) with a view to claiming off you, I reckon you could be the most careful driver in the world but still get caught out.

*the police had a interesting take on that. The 2 options they gave were for the first 4 drivers to be charged with driving without due care and attention, or for us all to let the insurance co's sort it out. Needless to say everyone wanted to take the second option.

.....on a Speed Awareness Course
....I genuinely believe I'm an above average driver

Yes yes, well done, have a biscuit.

I said not a couple of edits ago that I wasn't perfect and didn't claim to be. I got speedgunned on the border of where a 50mph limit drops to a 30. I was braking but hadn't quite got down to 30mph by time I'd reached the sign, if they'd have taken the reading a second later I'd have been in the clear. Still, no excuse; do the crime, do the time I suppose.