[Closed] Pork DNA found in halal chicken sausages...

about as far as it did last time?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21312004

really its an interesting legacy of christianity(old testament)/judaisms/islams shared origin as a desert religion

Anyone who thinks it's fine not to stun animals before being bleed out on an industrial basis deserves everything they get in my opinion.

There's a good reason it's illegal (well, to those not playing the race/religion card).

christianity(old testament)

Does not compute. The Old Testament and the Torah are closely aligned. The New Testament is where Christianity is all about.

the koran is word for word same as old testament in places as well

old/new its all in the bible right?

IBFL...

How far is that teddy gonna get thrown!?

Depends what it's name is...

Anyone who thinks it's fine not to stun animals before being bleed out on an industrial basis deserves everything they get in my opinion.

There's a good reason it's illegal (well, to those not playing the race/religion card).

How do you think animals have been slaughtered throughout human history? What if you lack the means to stun animals?

I think you should read up on Halal and Kosher butchering, before making such stupid statements.

Whatever your own personal beliefs, the fact is that people have been deceived, and it's that deception (unlike the perfectly legal slaughter of animals) which is really quite disgusting. I hope those responsible are found, and suitably sanctioned.

What if you lack the means to stun animals?

Don't kill them, then?

We've had the 'ability to stun animals' for years. What a bizarre thing to say. We've done plenty of things throughout history; 500 years ago we were still burning witches.

As a veggie I've no issues with people killing animals for food. I see no earthly reason why we have to torture them in the process.

I think you should read up on Halal and Kosher butchering, before making such stupid statements.

Well, in his support - I've stood in the room three feet away from the operator while its been done

and bearing in mind that I've killed hundreds of animals in the course of my own work, and been present for the death of many more - frankly, I think that unstunned halal and kosher is ****ing barbaric, its a travesty that we have not banned it.

Depends what it's name is...

Let's say for the sake of measuring your level of pedantry the teddy in this instance is called 'Pedro'...Now what?

before making such stupid statements.

Stop frothing at the mouth and wind your over-stretched neck in lad.

Don't kill them, then?

We're naturally omnivorous. In many parts of the world, meat is a vital source of protein. Ergo, we need to kill animals.

We've had the 'ability to stun animals' for years. What a bizarre thing to say. We've done plenty of things throughout history; 500 years ago we were still burning witches.

Total non-sequitur. Pointless statement.

As a veggie I've no issues with people killing animals for food. I see no earthly reason why we have to torture them in the process.

'Torture'? Have a read up on the requirements of Halal and Kosher butchering. Specifially the bits that relate to 'saving the animal from suffering as much as is possible'.

Then go and have a word with cats; they like to play with their quarry before killing it.

I've stood in the room three feet away from the operator while its been done

I've witnessed Halal slaughter in a countries and places where the kind of equipment used to stun large animals is not available. I didn't see the animals suffering too much. They were dead within seconds. Contrast this to the 'assembly line' nature of an abattoir, where all the other animals get to hear the terrified noises of those slaughtered in front of them. I've been in an abattoir and seen animals defecating in fear, and injuring themselves trying to escape.

Seeing both sides gives you a better perspective.

Stop frothing at the mouth and wind your over-stretched neck in lad.

Why not actually get involved in the discussion; after all, you started this thread. For what reason, may I ask? Was it to actually discuss the issues (something you so far have failed to do), or was there another reason?

stupid statement or not it was followed by a crass smiley

and just to clarify, halal/kosher is cruel imo though im not sure that animal welfare is much better in large parts of the globe, china for example has a bad rep
the horsemeat trade here has shown up how poorly regulated the industry is, who know what else goes on

I didn't see the animals suffering too much.

God help us! 🙄

I think that unstunned halal and kosher is **** barbaric, its a travesty that we have not banned it.

I've witnessed Halal slaughter in a countries and places where the kind of equipment used to stun large animals is not available.

What, they don't have access to a poleaxe?

I mean, they're hardly 21'st century high cost technology are they...

Infant circumcision anyone?

Male or female? After all, one is socially acceptable, the other is an evil throwback to past times and is banned...

ahem!

Why not actually get involved in the discussion; after all, you started this thread. For what reason, may I ask? Was it to actually discuss the issues (something you so far have failed to do), or was there another reason?

Still rabidly frothing I see...

Like the spoilt bratty-child you are go and stand in the corner until you have learnt how to behave and control your anger.

Then expand on how you think the perpetrators should be punished.

I didn't see the animals suffering too much.

So their suffering was within the limits of what you consider acceptable then? Why didn't you say so before - that makes it all ok.

pork is delicious, any religion that doesn't like pork isn't the religion for me.

Killing of animals in the halal way is vile and abhorrent. How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me. It should be banned immediately

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

We're naturally omnivorous. In many parts of the world, meat is a vital source of protein. Ergo, we need to kill animals.

So? We don't live in those countries. I haven't eaten meat in over two decades and I'm doing ok. In the UK we kill animals by choice because, well, we like meat. It's far from a 'need' at all.

Pointless statement.

You started it.

the bits that relate to 'saving the animal from suffering as much as is possible'.

That may well be the intention, and halal butchery may well have been the best means of achieving that in the annals of time. But not in the UK, and not today.

Then go and have a word with cats; they like to play with their quarry before killing it.

And you pull me up for a non sequiteur! How is that in any way relevant to anything? Are you a cat?

I've been in an abattoir and seen animals defecating in fear, and injuring themselves trying to escape.

So that needs addressing too, of course. Your argument is essentially, "this method of torturing animals is better than that method of torturing animals"; mine is "hey, how about not torturing them at all?"

How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me.

It's that religious privilege thing that people were arguing a few days back didn't exist.

Houns - Member
Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

Don't be so utterly ridiculous. I could turn that question around, why do you think industrial slaughter processes are so much better for welfare?

My uncle runs a slaughterhouse. In the last few years he has had to introduce halal because as an independent it's what most of his customers now ask for.

He hates it- it's very upsetting for his staff compared to more modern methods, the animals clearly suffer more and it's very messy and gory. However without it he'd not have a livelihood. I have absolutely no time for anyone that thinks it's an acceptable way to kill animals now more humane alternatives exist.

As for not eating pig, I know it's religion and that, but get over yourselves 🙄

I agree with cougar, the whole journey needs to be improved. However my point and question about the death still stands and is not ridiculous at all

there was a documentary years ago, possibly horizon or something, about a woman who could talk to cows, think she was on the autistic spectrum somewhere and she made a decent living by being employed by big cow places in america to redesign their systems to make the experience less scary for the cows as they were being led up to be stunned/killed.

EDIT -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/temple.shtml

this is the woman

So their suffering was within the limits of what you consider acceptable then? Why didn't you say so before - that makes it all ok.

Personally, yes. A quick, deep cut to the jugular and it's all over in a matter of seconds.

Killing of animals in the halal way is vile and abhorrent. How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me. It should be banned immediately

Some interesting reading for you sensitive souls:

Hopefully this will allay some of your fears and unfounded prejudices.

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

What if a gun and bullet isn't available?

Your argument is essentially, "this method of torturing animals is better than that method of torturing animals"; mine is "hey, how about not torturing them at all?"

I'm talking about killing animals for food, not 'torturing' them. have a read up on the definition of 'torture'.

What if a gun and bullet isn't available?

Again, this is moot. In the UK at least, availability of tools to comply with legislation is a non-issue.

In some far-flung third world country where the options are halal butchery or punching it in the face for an hour, sure, it's obviously preferable. But here, it's utterly irrelevant unless we're sourcing cheap meat from those countries, which we shouldn't be if their practices don't comply with EU law.

I'm talking about killing animals for food, not 'torturing' them. have a read up on the definition of 'torture'.

Wow, you're resorting to semantics as a defence now? That didn't take long. Ok, try "inhumanely killing" or "butchering with unnecessary, avoidable cruelty" instead. I was just trying to be succinct and you know full well what I mean.

Halal and Kosher slaughter complies with UK and EU law. It is not considered to be 'inhumane' or to cause 'unnecessary suffering'. That discussion is dealt with. So can we now move on, to the real issue at steak, which is that the express wishes of UK citizens have been ignored, and that laws have been broken in deceiving them?

Because that would be a bit more useful than people ignorantly ranting about things they don't fully understand.

As for not eating pig, I know it's religion and that, but get over yourselves

I know! I'm going to have a prosciutto ciabatta for lunch. 🙂

I'm not meant to eat shellfish. Trouble is, I'm too selfish.

The really retarded bit of all this is, as thx said, it's rooted in good intentions, you're supposed to respect the animals that provide us with food and minimising suffering is what halal is supposed to achieve. In the modern Western world, techniques and technology have improved in the last fifteen hundred years, but aspects of religion haven't been as dynamic. Perhaps if they'd had the foresight to write "... or better" in their holy books we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm all for multiculturalism and integration, but I really despise the idea that established laws can be conveniently ignored if you don't like them. That's a little scary. I wonder how far I'd get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

We have EU imposed animal cruelty laws which are waived for religious reasons. IMHO if your superstitions are in conflict with law, it's really not the law that needs to change.

Halal and Kosher slaughter complies with UK and EU law.

No it doesn't. It's exempt.

It is not considered to be 'inhumane' or to cause 'unnecessary suffering'.

That would appear to be a matter of opinion rather than fact.

to the real issue at steak

Lets not bring cows in to this eh?

No it doesn't. It's exempt.

It is not 'unlawful'. End of.

That would appear to be a matter of opinion rather than fact.

Of course. As would yours, mine and and others' statements on here.

So, this illegal deception thing..

It's not unlawful, no. That's not the same thing as being compliant with the law. An exception is made; the law isn't enforced if they play the god card. You can handwave it, but it's an important distinction.

Of course. As would yours, mine and and others' statements on here.

Excellent, glad you changed your mind.

So, this illegal deception thing..

There's two issues isn't there.

a) food contains things we weren't told about, like the horsemeat thing earlier. Whether this is "deception" or accidental cross contamination isn't clear - the report said "traces of DNA" rather than "slabs of pork" so it's perhaps more likely to be the latter?

b) this causes a particular problem in contrast to horsegate, in that it's something its target audience choose not to eat. It'd be like finding lamb in my veggieburgers.

So, this illegal deception thing..

I'm all for multiculturalism and integration, but I really despise the idea that established laws can be conveniently ignored if you don't like them. That's a little scary. I wonder how far I'd get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

We have EU imposed animal cruelty laws which are waived for religious reasons.

That's not the same thing as being compliant with the law.

Jews and Muslims in Europe predate the EU by centuries.

I know this but I don't think I get what point you're making?

We aren't exactly wholly indigenous in the UK, we're a mongrel race of indigenous Celts, Romans, Norse, French, whoever else has come over here over the years either by force or invitation. That's not a bad thing.

Law and culture has evolved similarly. If you don't like those laws, you lobby for reform, you don't seek an exclusion clause.

I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view (and yes, I know for a lot of people it's not a choice). It's kinda similar to when Brits go on holiday and then spend all their time in the "Rose & Crown" English themed bar eating fish and chips. I just don't get it. When I go on holiday, I try and see the 'real' country and integrate as well as I can even if it's just for a couple of weeks. I went to France and thought "fantastic, I can brush off my GSCE French" and spent two weeks asking people to talk to me in French so I could practice it.

Perhaps it's just me that's weird like that. The world is a diverse place, and I quite like that.

I can't find a link but a few years ago the RCVS made an observational study of slaughterhouse practices - they found that something like 15% of cows tried to get back up on their feet after their throats were slit for halal slaughter - because of veins on the back of the neck on cows it can take several minutes for them to die using that method.

For me that's enough to never eat halal food and boycott places that places that sell / serve halal meat without being honest about it - Waitrose, Whitbread, KFC, Subway and others no longer get my custom.

It's not unlawful, no. That's not the same thing as being compliant with the law.

Actually it is. 😆

Excellent, glad you changed your mind.

No; I've stated that it's my opinion all along (regardin g the percieved 'suffering of animals during slaughter). 😕

There's two issues isn't there.

a) food contains things we weren't told about, like the horsemeat thing earlier. Whether this is "deception" or accidental cross contamination isn't clear - the report said "traces of DNA" rather than "slabs of pork" so it's perhaps more likely to be the latter?

b) this causes a particular problem in contrast to horsegate, in that it's something its target audience choose not to eat. It'd be like finding lamb in my veggieburgers.

a) It doesn't matter if there is 90% or 0.0000001% pork DNA present; the law requires it to be 100% free of non-halal meat. Which it wasn't. It's either Halal or it isn't. And it's illegal to sell meat that is labelled as Halal, if it isn't.

b) No, we're back to a). The target market have specified something that must be satisfied in law. They specified Halal meat, and were instead given non-Halal products. This is deception (whether intentional or not) and illegal. The seller has a legal obligation to ensure the products meat legal standards. They didn't.

Religion is bollocks

In your [i]opinion[/i]. 😉

You're not being half as smart as you think you are.

Ad hominem *checks* Just need three more for a line now.

I don't think I'm being smart. I think I'm having an interesting discussion. I don't claim to be an expert and wasn't aware it was a competition.

I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view

the law requires it to be 100% free of non-halal meat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware Halal has no specific protection in UK law, so I'm not seeing how (legally) this is any different to the horsemeat issue. Morally, sure. Is that a recent change?

Do we have to move to India because it has more vegetarian or to a buddhist country?

Well, no, a better analogy might be that I'd look to move to a Buddhist country if meat consumption suddenly became mandatory by law in all the others.

thx1138 - Member
So their suffering was within the limits of what you consider acceptable then? Why didn't you say so before - that makes it all ok.
Personally, yes. A quick, deep cut to the jugular and it's all over in a matter of seconds.

Killing of animals in the halal way is vile and abhorrent. How we, as modern country allow this to happen is beyond me. It should be banned immediately
Some interesting reading for you sensitive souls:

LAWGAZETTE.CO.UK "http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/files/Animal_Welfare_0.pdf"

Hopefully this will allay some of your fears and unfounded prejudices.

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?
What if a gun and bullet isn't available?

Your argument is essentially, "this method of torturing animals is better than that method of torturing animals"; mine is "hey, how about not torturing them at all?"
I'm talking about killing animals for food, not 'torturing' them. have a read up on the definition of 'torture'.

The teddy's name is 'Pedro' - Now what? I know you're a bit busy making a fool of yourself but answer the question... 😆

as I'm aware Halal has no specific protection in UK law

He's on about Sharia, which as far as I am aware *just checked and I'm correct* isn't enforced or even recognised in the UK, therefore I've taken the liberty of putting his comment down to a symptom of the rabies he seems to be suffering from.

might be that I'd look to move to a Buddhist country if meat consumption suddenly became mandatory by law in all the others.

Anyone my broader point is folk keep aspects of their culture when they move be it brits having roast beef and reading the sun in Spain

My ciabatta is actually bressaola, not prosciutto as I'd specified. 😐 Now, where's that stuffed toy animal..

I can't find a link but a few years ago the RCVS made an observational study of slaughterhouse practices - they found that something like 15% of cows tried to get back up on their feet after their throats were slit for halal slaughter - because of veins on the back of the neck on cows it can take several minutes for them to die using that method.

I'd be interested in seeing that actually. Is it the result of a study of all slaughterhouses using Kosher and Halal slaughtering methods, a sample, or just one?

For me that's enough to never eat halal food and boycott places that places that sell / serve halal meat without being honest about it - Waitrose, Whitbread, KFC, Subway and others no longer get my custom.

If they're not being honest about it, how do you know they sell Halal food? 😕

Law and culture has evolved similarly. If you don't like those laws, you lobby for reform, you don't seek an exclusion clause.

You are aware of course that the practice Kosher slaughter at least, in the UK, predates parliament? As Jews have been around here for rather a long time. And even Halal slaughter has probably been carried out here before animal welfare laws were written up. I am unaware that Jews and Muslims have sought any 'exclusion clauses' for their preferred method of slaughter.

I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view

So why do you continue to live in a country that permits the Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter then? 😕

I don't think I'm being smart. I think I'm having an interesting discussion

This is excellent! 😀

Anyone my broader point is folk keep aspects of their culture when they move be it brits having roast beef and reading the sun in Spain

Yes, but very often some aspects of other peoples culture are agreed to be incompatible with the country they move to.

A bit like Brits being arrested for shagging on Dubai beaches.

I think sex in public is illegal here as well but I get your broader point.

I'm wondering how long it takes before the pic of Blair and Bush Jr. gets posted...

Shouldn't be too long teethgrinder. 😉

Yes, but very often some aspects of other peoples culture are agreed to be incompatible with the country they move to.

In what way is Halal and Kosher slaughter 'incompatible' with the UK?

my broader point is folk keep aspects of their culture when they move be it brits having roast beef and reading the sun in Spain

... which is what I was meaning. I don't get it. Food's tricky for me for reasons you're well familiar with, but that exception aside if I was that desperate to read the Sun over a pint of dog, I'd save my money and holiday in Devon or something.

So why do you continue to live in a country that permits the Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter then?

Last I checked it's not mandatory. I'm vegetarian, I can live in a country that permits halal in the same way as I can live in one that permits football. I don't particularly like it, but it doesn't impact any of my lifestyle choices.

You are aware of course that the practice Kosher slaughter at least, in the UK, predates parliament? As Jews have been around here for rather a long time. And even Halal slaughter has probably been carried out here before animal welfare laws were written up. I am unaware that Jews and Muslims have sought any 'exclusion clauses' for their preferred method of slaughter.

Burning people at the stake existed before parliament. We have now found a more humane method and it's illegal to burn people to death anymore.

In what way is Halal and Kosher slaughter 'incompatible' with the UK?

In the same way that forced marriages, female circumcision and stoning people for adultery are!

The teddy's name is 'Pedro' - Now what? I know you're a bit busy making a fool of yourself but answer the question...

🙄

I'm too busy 'making a fool of myself' to respond to your nonsense I'm afraid. Sorry about that. I just didn't consider it important enough to warrant the effort required to do so. Obviously the same as how you treated my question of you.

Last I checked it's not mandatory. I'm vegetarian, I can live in a country that permits halal in the same way as I can live in one that permits football. I don't particularly like it, but it doesn't impact any of my lifestyle choices.

So, what's your point then?

😆

I just didn't consider it important enough to warrant the effort required to do so.

My ciabatta is actually bressaola, not prosciutto as I'd specified. Now, where's that stuffed toy animal..

hello elfinsafety 🙂

In the same way that forced marriages, female circumcision and stoning people for adultery are!

None of these things are legal in the UK. So I'm not sure quite why you've mentioned them at all.

So, again:

In what way is Halal and Kosher slaughter 'incompatible' with the UK?

[i]"Around 90% of Halal slaughter involved pre-stunning"[/i]

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlblob&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=RSPCABlob&blobwhere=1109267162636&ssbinary=true

That link is very interesting THX,

Effectiveness of the Stunning technique

There is empirical evidence shows the butchering of animals after stunning may not necessarily reduce pain or suffering. The scientific community has also produced evidence there is a strong prospect of brain tissue contamination in the consumption of meat that has been killed after post stunning. It is part of the growing consensus that the stunning method may not be as watertight in preventing the pain to animals and risk free diet to humans.

…

Laboratory testing of sub conscience animals

The results were laboratory tested and showed that the claim that the Capital Bolt Pistol stunning method was least painful was not factual. Their findings were as follows:

Slaughtering with a sharp knife:

1. [b]The first three seconds from the time of the slaughter (in the Islamic Method)[/b] as recorded in the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter, thus [b]indicating that the animal did not feel any recognisable pain during or after the incision.[/b]

2. [b]During the following three seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deeps-sleep-unconsciousness.[/b] This is due to the large quantity of blood gushing out of the body. The sudden and profuse bleeding from the incision on the neck causes a shock resulting in a state of unconsciousness due to severe shortage of blood supply to the vital centres located in the brain,

3. [b]After the above mentioned six seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.[/b]

4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal chord) driving out maximum bloody from the body, thus resulting in hygienic meat for the consumers.

So, what's your point then?

Point? I was answering your question. Is "discussion" such an alien concept to you?

Wow. Just wow.
[img] [/img]

Point? I was answering your question. Is "discussion" such an alien concept to you?

The concept of discussion is not alien to me, no. Your point of stating "I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view" is though, as I'm wondering to whom you are referring there.

That link is very interesting THX,

What, you mean the study which used scientific methods to try to discover the truth, rather than unfounded prejudice and ignorance opinion? 😉

Pt2:

Captive Bolt Pistol (CBP) Stunning Method:

1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.
2. But EEG showed severe pain after stunning.
3. The hearts of animals stunned by CBP stopped beating earlier as compared to those slaughtered by the Islamic method, resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.

[b]The findings testified to the fact that the slaughter of an animal with a sharp blade is the least painful of the two methods of killing.[/b]

The concept of discussion is not alien to me, no. Your point of stating "I guess I don't really get why you'd choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with your world view" is though, as I'm wondering to whom you are referring there.

People who choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with their world view?

People who choose to live somewhere which is incompatible with their world view?

And who are they?

robdixon - Member
I can't find a link [b][handy][/b] but a few years ago the RCVS made an observational study of slaughterhouse practices - they found that something like 15% of cows tried to get back up on their feet after their throats were slit for halal slaughter - because of veins on the back of the neck on cows it can take several minutes for them to die using that method.

For me that's enough to never eat halal food and boycott places that places that sell / serve halal meat without being honest about it - Waitrose, Whitbread, KFC, Subway and others no longer get my custom

What about the study in the link THX posted which shows, after monitoring brain activity during slaughter, that the 'Islamic Method' is both less painful and more hygenic that the stunning method?

if they're unconscious, are they aware of the pain... just because the EEG picked up signals doesn't mean the animal is aware surely?

Is "discussion" such an alien concept to you?

PHIL without your earlier link re the "animal" talking woman i would not have believed what you were saying

wonder how far I'd get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

1st) 2 wrongs don't make a right

2nd) You can drink in some of the hotels, so maybe.

3rd) Before spouting off, think it through, the divinity of Mr J Christ is in each of the bread and wine, it's not actualy nececary to take both, ergo no restriction on your faith.

it was an excellent documentary junky! well worth trying to obtain a copy 🙂

if they're unconscious, are they aware of the pain... just because the EEG picked up signals doesn't mean the animal is aware surely?

True, but then you've got to prove the negative, there's no proof it's not pain, whereas the islamic method had proof there was no bain activity (and therefore presumably no pain?). Thats how i read it anyway.

If all the evidence points to Halal slaughter being less less-humane than stunning would everybody who's objected to Halal on welfare grounds in this thread start eating it?

wonder how far I'd get drinking communion wine in Saudi?

Lifer - Member

If all the evidence points to Halal slaughter being less less-humane than stunning would everybody who's objected to Halal on welfare grounds in this thread start eating it?

I'm assuming that is a typo...

But if all the evidence did point to it being more humane then yes - I for one would change my view. However given that a single study from 1978 inconclusively suggests it might be less painful and only when administered properly - I'm sticking with my view that it causes suffering - and that suffering is unnecessary...

I'm too busy 'making a fool of myself' to respond to your nonsense I'm afraid

You have responded^^^

I'm too busy 'making a fool of myself'

It's never usually too late to try and redeem yourself, I say [i]usually[/i] as in this case you're about 7 posts too late.

Good work. 😉

I'm sticking with my view that it causes suffering - and that suffering is unnecessary...

But if all the evidence did point to it being more humane then yes - I for one would change my view. However given that a single study from 1978 inconclusively suggests it might be less painful and only when administered properly - I'm sticking with my view that it causes suffering - and that suffering is unnecessary...

Great. More healthier, more humane Halal and Kosher meat for those of us that do want to continue eating it. Feel free to provide scientific evidence that it's less humane though, please.

You have responded^^^

Oh do shut up. You've provided nothing of any value to this thread, other than creating it. And I suspect that was only to have a veiled pop at something/cultures you are ignorant of and prejudiced towards. Probably because you lack the balls to actually come out and say exactly what you mean. If you wish to discuss things like an adult, like Cougar and others have (and I must say, Cougar has provided an excellent counter perspective), then do so. Otherwise, shut up and go and find something else to do, if intelligent debate is beyond you.

Anyway, folks; I must be away. I have to collect a Kosher chicken (we have guests this weekend), and Shabbos is almost upon us. Plus my wife would kill me if she found out the reason I didn't get any smoked salmon was because I was debating on the internet. 😆

Anyone who supports this ask yourself one question. If you were to be killed right now and you had a choice of your neck being slit or a single shot to the head, what would you choose and why?

This^^

A close friend who works in animal welfare (actual science not loony animal rights rubbish) was in a slaughterhouse in Germany where pigs were gassed and then had their throats slit to bleed out. After lunch they forgot to turn the gas back on and the pigs had their throats cut whilst conscious, apparently it was totally horrific, with them screaming and panicking as they bled, and that's coming from someone who's been in a lot of slaughter houses around the world. Probably happens quite a lot as well as in halal slaughter houses.

thx1138 - Member
Oh do shut up. You've provided nothing of any value to this thread, other than creating it. And I suspect that was only to have a veiled pop at something/cultures you are ignorant of and prejudiced towards. Probably because you lack the balls to actually come out and say exactly what you mean

I think you're right, especially regarding his reference to Sharia law when you were talking about exemptions from EU law...