[Closed] Political Correctness (Gervais, Twitter, possibly offensive word content)

Nope - gervais deserves everything he gets for this - he should have apologised and that would be the end of it. Instead he has tried to justify his use of an offensive word

there are other, more overtly offensive words that could be used in a Gervais context

(BTW, how do we all feel about "cretin" then ?)

I agree. He would have been better to say sorry and shut up about it. Instead, his legion of followers have insisted on perpetuating the use of the word, in particular targeting a disability campaigner on twitter.

I still call people a Joey 😳

Gervais has to be the over rated smug ****t of all time.

(BTW, how do we all feel about "cretin" then ?)

Not a word I use tbh. What's the etymology (I'm on a phone in non 3G)?

Cretin - a very oldfashioned term for a level of learning difficulties -

Deadly:

Word Origin & History

cretin
1779, from Fr. Alpine dialect crestin, "a dwarfed and deformed idiot" of a type formerly found in families in the Alpine lands, a condition caused by a congenital deficiency of thyroid hormones, from V.L. *christianus "a Christian," a generic term for "anyone," but often with a sense of "poor fellow."

I will never use the word "cretin" again!

TBH I think the word would be Garvais' best defence (assuming he's going for "Ah, but words change...")

(assuming he's going for "Ah, but words change...")

That is his defence indeed.

I will never use the word "cretin" again!

Theres a difference between what a something means now and what it meant in a specific alpine community 200 years ago. With a word like cretin, in common usage neither anyone who says it or anyone who hears it is thinking of hereditory throid conditions.

If you traced every derogatory word back to it origins and worried about it.... well you'd never have a bad word to say about anyone. And then where would we be? Eh? Knobjockey.

My late aunt who lived with us for 20 years had Down's Syndrome. Cant say Id ever heard the derivative of mongoloid in that context until some years after she died. There's no denying that using mongoloid as an adjective is not specifically incorrect, since it describes a physical characteristic. The fact that it assumes an incorrect origination of the physical characteristic is really the only fault.

Like any word that PC has deemed not to be used, the automatic presumption by the high and mighty is that insult is always intended when it's often just a combination of ignorance (did a memo go out?) and lingual inertia.

And who's being slighted most, the mentally handicapped or the Asian orientals?

Mmm! I once used the term whilst on a stag do totally flippantly, when describing someone who'd been on the weed all day, I referred to him as being "totally monged" a term used very readily as far as I was aware when describing dope smokers! However one of the lads overheard this, he has a downs daughter an he went a little postal! I explained it had no reference to downs in this case and left it at that, however some of the group wouldn't let it lie and accused him of making it into an issue! I felt guilty, but I don't know why?

as far as I'm aware mong was in heavy use in the early nineties as a term for being very very stoned and later just very very mellow or stupefied by drugs or booze..

I then watched the children of those 90s users bring the word back into popularity for describing someone behaving stupidly.. those kids wouldn't have ever heard of mongoloids..

So.. in my experience it's a derogatory word for an idiot derived from watching your idiot parents and their mates getting wasted..
due to the out of touch knee jerking from middle aged reactionaries the word will have now been recharged with it's more offensive energy..

good work

yunki, don't forget the consequent raising of RG's profile

yes, well done [i]everyone[/i]

"smug self-serving immature git fails to see point" shock horror

Without debating the rights and wrongs of using the word in conversation, i'm sure Gervais would have been aware that there would be fallout

As he he implies, using a word as an insult doesn't mean that the dictionary definition applies to the victim.

It's interesting how we've moved away from the 'sticks and stones' attitude of my childhood-the victim is no longer the recipient of the insult, but the broader population where the word originated.

wrightyson - Member
I referred to him as being "totally monged" a term used very readily as far as I was aware when describing dope smokers!

Used it, and still use it, not just for the stoned descriptor, but also in general for a feeling of being tired, lethargic and generally out of it. I will be quite glad when the general population realise Gervais is a self-serving ****tard and someone pushes him under a bus.
Nowt to do with the twitter thing, the guy just pisses me off.

Blimey! You learn something new every day! I sometimes think i must be incredibly naive or just ignorant or stupid or something else.

Loads of people used to use the term 'mong' - "you're such a mong" when I was at school and uni, generally for people who had just done something a bit stupid or clumsy. I don't think any of us knew the real meaning & history of the word.....

In fact, I think sometimes I probably still say to someone in conversation something like "yeah, this evening I'll just be monging out on the sofa, watching telly....."

My mom still refers to people with Downs Syndrome as 'Mongols'. I think it was only in the late 1970s that the World Health Organisation banned the term in medical literature, partly due to objections from Mongolia.

Gervais is an amateurish **** who has been told by unknowing hollywood types and the media that he's a genius. Far from it, he just got lucky.

I wonder if Gervais would use the term in front someone with Down's Syndrome, it would be pretty presumtive to assume that the person would find it funny and see the 'irony' in its use, as it would calling, for example, a Chinese person a Chink.

Oh the genius in his irony, only those on a higher plain of understanding can appreciate the hilarity.

Gervais is more like David Brent than he likes to admit, maybe that's how he played the character so well.

Never thought of it as a nasty word for down syndrome . As an ex full time skunk abuser it was always used to describe the look or feeling of being mega stoned. Most people of my age use the expression Joey, as mentioned above after the star of Blue Peter. Why all the outrage if you called someone a spastic? If they were a spastic would they take offence ? Or is it only others who would take offence for you . As there was a spastic society I assume it was a term used to describe a disability .

I think he's in the wrong here and I'm not a fan at all, but I would admit that it is hard to know where to draw the line.

By the same logic shouldn't we object to people saying that certain brands of bike shoes look "special needs"?

Gervais - what a spakker 😉

scaredypants - Member

there are other, more overtly offensive words that could be used in a Gervais context

(BTW, how do we all feel about "cretin" then ?)

Yes, or idiot, imbecile, moron and so on.

the office was good.

the rest was so so.

edit: Interestingly in the above sentence, my phone tried to auto-spell 'rest' as 't*at'. How apt.

Gervais is a bit of a tit, but words do change. I was surprised to find that idiot used to be a 'medical' term.

Psychology. (no longer in technical use; considered offensive) a person of the lowest order in a former and discarded classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

There are places marked on old maps as 'idiot colony' - ie what we would now call some kind of care home for people with learning difficulties.

Well, I have learnt a new word this morning as a result of the reporting of this story. Disabilist [disableist?]. Apparantly that's what Gervais is being, according to a lady representing disabled groups who was speaking about the issue on a radio report earlier today.

"Dear fans. Don't give the haters any attention. Those people aren't really offended by the things I say - they are offended by my success."

Oh dear, what a self-important arsehole.

'Spastic Society' changed to 'SCOPE' as people kept using the word 'spastic' as an insult.

Now the kids use "scopey"....

Words change over time, and some get replaced by the PC crowd when a word is deemed 'offensive'.

Still, society still manages to turn the 'new' word into an insult.

( 'cack-handed' apparently means 'left-handed', from when kids were forced to write with their right hand, even if they were naturally left handed. My dad's now ambidextrous because of this.. )

Mongoliod? Whoever originally came up with the term hadn't met my friend Muhnksetseg?

[img] [/img]

I must admit I use cretin quite often, but then I do live in England and spend time on STW.

Stewart Lee sums up my feelings on political correctness pretty well.

When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories fought an election campaign saying "if you want a **** for a neighbour, vote Labour," and he drove me around saying, "this is where all the ****s and the coons and the jungle bunnies live." And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one Asian boy in the class, he would say, "is the Black Spot in".

And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made.

+ 1 Lee

xiphon - Member
'cack-handed' apparently means 'left-handed', from when kids were forced to write with their right hand, even if they were naturally left handed. My dad's now ambidextrous because of this..

Woooo! I'm a cack-hander!! People call me it quite often & I take it as something to be proud of....a mate of my brother used to always wind me up about it, then one day I noticed he was also cack handed....! 🙂

EDIT - although thinking about it, my Nan was left handed, but wrote right handed as she was forced to at school.

left handed is also sinister.

Time for my 2nd favourite pie chart
[img] [/img]

So do Mongolians get pissed when people with Downs Syndrome are refered to as Mongs? Probably not.

There are bigger issues to worry yourself with, this isn't one of them.

whenever i find myself impaled upon the horns of a moral dilema such as this, i ask myself.....................

what would polly do ?

[img] [/img]

I've used mong as in "monged out" to describe myself when your absolutely shattered, didn't really think about the source of the word. But then again, if it's just me saying it to one other person (whose not downs) is that offensive? Sara and me both sometimes use the word gay to describe something that's a bit lame, but there's a girl in the office who uses it and it sort of winds me up.

Doesn't take away from the fact that gervais is a bit of a tit. (no offence to breats 🙂 )

Time for my 2nd favourite pie chart

I'd classify myself as 'morally helpless'

So what sort of people are fans of Ricky? I did like The Office and Extras but get the impression that they were good due to the writing more than Ricky's performance - and Steven Merchant was the funny on really. So now we see Ricky in Hollywood films but can he act? I don't think so or indeed particularly amusing in these roles if his comic appeal can take away from his lack of acting talent. I watched a film recently about a museum where the exhibits came alive at night, it was a pretty good family film really and he had a minorish role in that but why? Any actor could have done what he did.

As the very proud dad of a little 'un with learning difficulties, I've got bigger things to worry about than some overpaid / undertalented luvvie spouting juvenile crap then attempting to justify it. Yes, I get mildly irritated by these sort of comments, but as I said, there are bigger issues to get wound up about.

Time for my 2nd favourite pie chart

Does your favourite one relate to graphic designers by any chance?

I think we also need to be careful about the way we refer to people with disabilities or special needs.

It is not appropriate to refer to someone as 'downs'. e.g. 2someone who is downs" That someone [i]has [/i]Downs Syndrome or even Downs as a short form. People are not 'special needs' they [i]have [/i]special needs. To refer to a person by their disability removes their humanity, a bit. It focuses on the disability, not the person.

There's a lot of sense in what Stewart Lee says but at the same time I think there's a big difference between language and the intention behind language.

Yes, the term Mong would be offensive when used to describe someone with Down Syndrome but wouldn't it also be offensive to call someone with Down Syndrome an idiot?

At the same time, why is it OK for me to call my friend an idiot for doing something stupid but not OK to call him a mong?

For a lot of people the original definition for mong has been lost. I'm thirty and I had no idea it was used to describe people with Down Syndrome until I read this thread. Mind you, I don't think I've ever used the term mong at all. I prefer ****tard.

But yes, Gervais is being a ****.

Does your favourite one relate to graphic designers by any chance?

Sadly the term "Mong" seems to be used increasingly in schools. My son has had it used against him. He wasn't upset but when I reminded him that his friend's sister has DS he recognised that is was not a term that should be used.

But it is a hard thing to know where to draw the line - looney, special needs etc. All of these terms are derogatory and best avoided. But comedy often feels the need to tread on these kinds of toes.

On the PC issue and comedy. I noticed that Mock the Week did a joke section on the Bible. Can you imagine if this had been about other religious works. Why is acceptable to joke about the Bible in isolation? Either all or nothing, surely?

So do Mongolians get pissed when people with Downs Syndrome are refered to as Mongs? Probably not.

"The World Health Organization (WHO) officially dropped references to mongolism in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate"

Yeah, I think they did get a bit miffed (earlier than I thought, thought it was the late 1970s).

I'm reporting a number of people on this thread, including myself. Expect bannings people! 🙂

The implication of calling someone a mong is that it is that to have Down Syndrome is to be deserving of ridicule. Most of us wouldn't laugh at someone with Down Syndrome but people do - mostly kids perhaps but we're supposed to grow out of it right?

For a lot of people the original definition for mong has been lost. I'm thirty and I had no idea it was used to describe people with Down Syndrome until I read this thread.

I'm thirty too and I did know the association.

At the same time, why is it OK for me to call my friend an idiot for doing something stupid but not OK to call him a mong?

I think the difference is that idiot has gone much further in losing it's original meaning - whereas for many people mong hasn't. I also think as someone mentioned above talking to your mate is different to broadcasting things on the internet. Something people often seem to forget on here too.

If I find a comedian funny, he can say whatever he/she wants in the context of his/her act and I'll laugh. I see no place for political correctness in good comedy.
Other people might and that's their choice.
By the same token, if I don't find a comedian funny, I don't f*^ing listen to them, so I cannot be offended by what they say.
For example, if Patrick Kielty used "Flid" in his act, I wouldn't complain, cos I wouldn't KNOW ABOUT IT. Not until all the internet whingers came out and made it news. Then I still wouldn't complain, because he's crap and I don't care enough about him to be bothered.
Christ, the World is pathetic these days. I'm getting off.

Of course the other part of this is that Gervais was doing this with what he called his 'mong face'. I wonder what he thought the face was meant to represent? probably not someone too stoned to move. As others have said, there may be some contexts in which 'mong' is acceptable, but it sounds to be that here he was mimicking someone for laughs. That's just not defensible.

wow the serious side o Dr CM and he is correct
Not a phrase or term i would use

Then again i dont refer to rubbish things as gay o rwish I could still but gollywogs.

I suspect when most people use these words they dont mean the offence that is actually there.

I interrupt this thread for my favourite pie chart:

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We now return you to your normal programming.

I think the difference is that idiot has gone much further in losing it's original meaning - whereas for many people mong hasn't. I also think as someone mentioned above talking to your mate is different to broadcasting things on the internet. Something people often seem to forget on here too.

Isn't it better to allow these terms to lose their original meaning over time? Language changes all the time and I think we spend too much time concentrating on the language rather than intention. If I knew someone who used every un-PC term going but never used them to cause harm to someone else then I wouldn't have a problem it.

Someone who religiously avoided every un-PC term but did their best to make people with Down Syndrome feel like their lives were less important I would have serious issues with.

Dear fans. Don't give the haters any attention. Those people aren't really offended by the things I say - they are offended [s]by my success[/s] because I'm an untalented t**t

So its true he has disappeared so far up his own arse he cannot even see reality.
He probably actually believes that what a shame

f I knew someone who used every un-PC term going but never used them to cause harm to someone else then I wouldn't have a problem it.

Someone who religiously avoided every un-PC term but did their best to make people with Down Syndrome feel like their lives were less important I would have serious issues with.

The chances of this occusring are very slim.
It is far more likely that someone who uses derogatory terms agress with these attitudes [ but not always.
If someone call someone a **** what would you think for example?
You are correct though we[ me and my fellow PC brigader thought policers] are trying to eliminate attitudes not words. Words do often refelct your attitude though

If someone call someone a **** what would you think for example?

Well, if someone calls someone from the Asian sub-continent a **** then it's probably meant to be offensive.

I've never heard of anyone calling someone a **** in any other context.

I've never heard of anyone calling someone a **** in any other context.

I'm quite dark and was called a **** occassionaly in my youth. And 'Gadaffi's son' when we were angry with him in the 80s 😉

So do Mongolians get pissed when people with Downs Syndrome are refered to as Mongs? Probably not.

"The World Health Organization (WHO) officially dropped references to mongolism in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate"

Yeah, I think they did get a bit miffed (earlier than I thought, thought it was the late 1970s).

Wasn't the name of the Mongolian delegate Downs? So, they named the syndrome after him.

Another interruption, one of my favourite pie charts:

[img] [/img]

Why is acceptable to joke about the Bible in isolation? Either all or nothing, surely?

Christians tend not to send in bombers when you criticise their religion (outside of Northern Ireland, anyway).

"The World Health Organization (WHO) officially dropped references to mongolism in 1965 after a request by the Mongolian delegate"

Isn't that where offence is actually justified? We've got this arse-backwards. Referring to Down's Syndrome as "mongolism" because sufferers allegedly resemble people from the Mongol Empire must surely be [i]way[/i] more offensive to people hailing from, say, modern day Mongolia.

If we started referring to jaundice as "Japanism," I'd expect the Japanese might have more to say about it than the jaundiced.

I'm with Stewart Lee on this, but it's also about context: there are words that I'll use in some situations, but not in others.

Of course, if I were a massive self-publicist I might deliberately use a word that I know will be controversial knowing that the people who buy my books/DVDs will think I'm a genius for being "anti-PC".

Why is acceptable to joke about the Bible in isolation? Either all or nothing, surely?

Presumably, the comedian was from a Christian background, as were most of his audience? If he made a joke about the Muslims and their massive golden horse, the audience wouldn't have got the joke.

Well, if someone calls someone from the Asian sub-continent a **** then it's probably meant to be offensive.

I've never heard of anyone calling someone a **** in any other context.

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

I wonder if this problem would disappear if we replaced the term "political correctness" with "common decency"?

Try reading some of the above comments and substituting the latter for the former.

if someone calls someone from the Asian sub-continent a **** then it's probably meant to be offensive.

This is a classic example, isn't it.

"****" is a contraction of ****stani, ie, someone from ****stan. Nothing more, nothing less. It's no more offensive in and of itself than calling someone from Scotland a "Scot."

The problem stems from it being commonly preceded by "f---ing" and succeeded by "bastards" by racist halfwits in the 80s. So now it's deemed to automatically be a racist slur, which is frankly bloody stupid.

You are correct though we... are trying to eliminate attitudes not words. Words do often refelct your attitude though

Excellent way of putting it. Words are just words. Except when they aren't.

Mogrim, that's more of a tart than a pie isn't it?

Sorry, I mean a sex professional.

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

A sikh shop?

🙂

miketually - Member
Of course, if I were a massive self-publicist I might deliberately use a word that I know will be controversial knowing that the people who buy my books/DVDs will think I'm a genius for being "anti-PC".

I don't think he is that clever - I think he genuinely does not understand.

Couldnt agree with you more chakaping. It's too easy to act like an offensive nobber, and then attempt to justify it by accusing people of being 'pc', as though they're the ones in the wrong. Even so, I'll stand by my earlier comment that I have bigger concerns than the juvenile remarks of a smug chancer.

Idiot is a Greek word meaning person with no professional qualification

In ancient times used to imply someone with no interest in politics IE civil life. so stupid and self centered .

It's a term of abuse I'll carry on with.

As a teenager cretin was my favorite insult till i went on exchange to France and started to mortally offend people i liked.

The origin of Mong is really not that obvious today but once you know it's origin it is hard to ever justify using it.

The stuff about attitudes is dead right.

Whether or not Ricky Gervais meant any offence, his loyal followers certainly did when they started flaming people who expressed their offence with the same insult. That's just nasty and disrespectful.

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

Fair point, hadn't though of that.

However, if it had just been used to describe the shop then I don't think anyone would have been offended, any more than referring to a Norwegian as a Noggy is offensive now. As mentioned above though, it was so often used in an offensive way that the word itself became offensive.

The problem stems from it being commonly preceded by "f---ing" and succeeded by "bastards" by racist halfwits in the 80s. So now it's deemed to automatically be a racist slur, which is frankly bloody stupid.

You cannot ignore the way a word is used from its actual meaning.
I am not sure the n word was actually derogatory to start with either and was meant to be descriptive but it use has led to it being what it is ....deemed so offensive we only say the n word.

Other examples include the way we often hear word stupid woman [ probably stupid bastard for a man I assume??/], bloody women drivers rather than just stupid or bloody bad drivers

Clealry they convey something about the speakers views.
Yes we should be able to use **** like we use Scot but we cannot for the reason you state.
My white mate [teacher in a primary school] working in Burnley is on a one man mission to reclaim it though...it has not worked yet.

Blimey! You learn something new every day!

*wonders about the etymology of thick

Is there a shop near you run by a dark-skinned guy with a turban? What's it called? What was it called in the 70s/80s?

Are you saying all corner shops are run by Asians? Racist.

You refer of course to the "**** shop,"(*) or corner shop. What are it's distinguishing features? Well, it's a shop, it's on a corner, and it's run by a gentleman from ****stan. Why is one of those facts offensive and not the others? Are we suggesting perhaps that there's something inherently wrong with being from ****stan?

I went to the Chinese chip shop yesterday. At the weekend I might go for an Indian. Why aren't these offensive terms when '**** shop' is?

(*) - Incidentally, when I was little, we always referred to the shop in question as the 'offy' or off-licence.