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I don’t know if anyone else has seen this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42523045
But the police statement seems absolutely terrible
Trained officers fired a single shot (1 shot multiple officers) killing an unarmed innocent man, and it’s the fault of the person who made the prank call!?!
Well that’s quite what the story says now is it.
Terrible incident though.
They said one round was released by officers after the 28-year-old failed to comply with verbal orders to keep his hands up, and appeared to move his hands toward his waist multiple times.
I think if multiple armed officers were pointing guns at me and telling me to keep my hands up...
sounds about right, aye.and it’s the fault of the person who made the prank call!?!
I think if multiple armed officers were pointing guns at me and telling me to keep my hands up...
I think if I went to my front door to be confronted by a heavily armed swat team screaming at me, I might be a bit confused.
The militarisation of police response tactics and armaments in America is shocking. The politics that have created the police as a homeland military force is as responsible as the "prank call".
The police had to treat it as a real threat, and probably did so according to their training. They might have mishandled the situation, they might have done it by the book.
The American police often lie about incident such as this. Until they provide video footage then I suggest they just shot him when he opened the door, and that if they did shout to put his hands up he didn't hear or misunderstood. Anyhow American police = trigger-happy cowboys.
But nobody forces any of us Europeans to go to the US, Saudi, Nigeria, Mexico or any other ****ed up place.
Read that earlier, the Police are saying with a straight face that it’s the fault of the ‘prankster’...
It’s typical of their risk adverse nature these days, they get an unconfirmed report that someone is armed and dangerous that’s enough to justify shooting and killing an unarmed, innocent man.
There is footage on the [url=
Police Facebook page.[/url].
Cop with an Itchy trigger finger and a guy who moves his arms with fatal consequences.
It’s a ‘thing’ called ‘swatting’, where morons call in hoax calls about an armed siege or whatever, in order to get an armed police/SWAT response, a bit like phoning in hoax fire calls, but with the likelihood of a really tragic outcome with trigger-happy cops.
Thankfully far less likely here.
Read that earlier, the Police are saying with a straight face that it’s the fault of the ‘prankster’...
They say the incident was caused by the prankster, I can’t see where they say the shot him because of the prankster.
The video edit is to short to draw any conclusion other than the Police murdered a man.
Crooks kill a lot more deliberately!
It seems to happen quite often where the person who is shot is moving their hands towards their waistband. There was one recently where someone had been asked to crawl towards police but had reached to pull his shorts up and had been shot. Not clear what solution is as US police really are at risk but balance looks wrong at moment
If the good guy had a gu... oh, no, wait, nows not the time to talk about that.
Could they not have called the house to verify or used a megaphone? Knocking on a door, when there’s allegedly a man with hostages and a can of petrol in there, seems a bit unprofessional IMO.
Tragic loss of life in a supposed civilised country that sees far too much of it.
Could they not have called the house to verify
“Hi, we’re just calling to see if you’ve killed your entire family and are planning on burning the house down is that right?”
“No.”
“Ah! That’s Ok sorry to trouble you.”
they shine a bright torch in his face looks like he raises a hand to shield his eyes from the glare and gets shot for his trouble. Shot first ask questions later gets pranked it would be funny if it wasn't so bloody tragic.
@Drac - Or more likely, establish contact before resorting to physical entry. But that would be a sensible conclusion to draw. 🙄
Drac - Moderator
Read that earlier, the Police are saying with a straight face that it’s the fault of the ‘prankster’...
They say the incident was caused by the prankster, I can’t see where they say the shot him because of the prank
A quote in the article
Due to the actions of a prankster, we have an innocent victim. Had the false police call not been made, we would not have been there.
This is where my original claim of blaming the prankster came from
Due to the actions of a prankster, we have an innocent victim. Had the false police call not been made, we would not have been there.
Seems a fair point to me.
Or more likely, establish contact before resorting to physical entry. But that would be a sensible conclusion to draw.
Maybe but not convinced a phone call is the way to do it.
I suspect the original Twitter user will be a bit worried now. They may have tried to hide their location but if they've been using the same account for any length of time they are bound to have made a mistake. That's what caught the PayPal hackers a few years ago. It only takes one mistake now
Holding your hands in the air is not a natural position. If you are confused and let you hands drop from the door handle or move them to you hips you get shot. If you move your hands from your side in any way other than the perfect way you get shot.
Police are trained to shoot first and question later because everyone might be carrying a gun. The entire gun culture and the fact everyone is afraid of everyone else is ****ed to be honest.
Many of the pro gun conservatives I know say that you should respect the police and do whatever they say without question... they also think that this type of policing and "respect" is what keeps them free
The "Swatting" thing is a phenomenon I've heard of a few times over the last couple of years. In addition to online gaming (or forum or reddit) disputes it's apparently something which people use to attack people in they public eye the disagree with like journalists or youtubers.
Back in the day, the "confidential telephone no" for tips against terrorists in NI was apparently used in similar fashion as a tool to annoy or victimise people you had a grudge against. At least, that was the rumour.
“Hi, we’re just calling to see if you’ve killed your entire family and are planning on burning the house down is that right?”“No.”
“Ah! That’s Ok sorry to trouble you.”
You think someone who has doused a house in petrol, killed his father and has his remaining family members at gun point would be calm and collected? Not so sure myself. It would still beat knocking on the door and then murdering an innocent man.
It would still beat knocking on the door and then murdering an innocent man.
Which didn’t happen either.
Which didn’t happen either.
How would you describe it then? Manslaughter, honest mistake, lawful killing, tragedy that’s the fault of the one making the call and not the over zealous American police force who would appear to do this sort of thing on s regular basis?I’d definitely call the shooting of an unarmed, innocent man murder regardless of who’s doing the killing.
Edit - sorry, they didn’t even knock on the door. The poor bastard just walked out
America, where they ban people from being cops because they are too clever.
sorry, they didn’t even knock on the door. The poor bastard just walked out
Yup.
Shot him before they could confirm. 🙁
Well at least the incident and officer involved will be investigated by an impartial and independent body with full oversight and it's findings made public............aahh no, my bad. 🙁
Why do they shoot to kill straight away? why not in the leg or something?
the over zealous American police force who would appear to do this sort of thing on s regular basis
“Hello, Police, there’s a bloke just left the pub, he’s got an Irish accent and he’s carrying a sawn off shotgun in a blue plastic bag”
A bit more background on the assholes responsible:
https://boingboing.net/2017/12/30/murder-by-cop.html
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/after-swatting-death-in-kansas-25-year-old-arrested-in-los-angeles/
America, where they ban people from being cops because they are too clever.
Drac
Seems a fair point to me
Due to the actions of a prankster, [s]we have an innocent victim. [/s] Had the false police call not been made, we would not have been there.
Due to the actions of the police officers, we have an innocent victim
Just beacause the police are there doesn’t mean they have to kill somebody
Bullets don't mess around, if you shoot at someone, you are shooting to kill.Why do they shoot to kill straight away? why not in the leg or something?
Why do they shoot to kill straight away? why not in the leg or something?
You think life's a film set? I guess you aim at the torso as it's the biggest target.
moving their hands towards their waistband. There was one recently where someone had been asked to crawl towards police but had reached to pull his shorts up and had been shot.
I saw that, it was as if they wanted to trick him into making a mistake so they had a reason to shoot him.
"LIE FACE DOWN ON THE GROUND. IF YOU DON'T DO EXACTLY AS I SAY I WILL SHOOT YOU. PUT YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD AND INTERLACE YOUR FINGERS. NOW GET UP ONTO YOUR KNEES. I SAID KEEP YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD. NOW CRAWL TOWARDS ME. I SAID KEEP YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD. CRAWL TOWARDS ME. KEEP YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD."
I understand the word crawl to mean something like this :
[img] 
[/img]
To be told to simultaneously crawl AND keep your hands on your head by someone who's said he'll kill you if you don't do exactly what he says must be terrifying.
A suspension on full pay will learn him. This one was a bit weirder though.
Oh great. I’m going there next week and it’s bad enough worrying about whether I’m going to get shot going to the loo... 🙄
Rachel
You think life's a film set? I guess you aim at the torso as it's the biggest target.
I think that a highly trained swat team at close distance should be able to shoot their gun accurately and perhaps more importantly not just shoot it at any person that moves their hands.
But maybe we cant understand because we dont live in a country where anyone could actually have a gun on them.
Just beacause the police are there doesn’t mean they have to kill somebody
Of course not. 🙄
The reports suggest they thought he was a threat so shot him. They’ve still not blamed the prankster for the shooting just the event leading up to it.
Americans are awful. Shocker.
Line them up with al-baghdadi and Dubai and spend time in Copenhagen instead.
Doesn't help the poor dead **** but...
But maybe we cant understand because we dont live in a country where anyone could actually have a gun on them.
I think this is probably the crux of it. Cops here almost never go to incidents expecting to get shot at. Even though there are plenty of incidents involving bad guys with guns, I think that's seen as creating a risk of getting shot, not an expectation. American cops go around expecting to get shot, so their whole thought process is probably completely different. The whole place is screwed up.
A bit off topic and hardly a reliable rag...
Personally I'm not sure if having an SAS sniper looking down on me if I were out NYE is something I would want to experience!
[img] 
[/img]
I've actually been held up at gunpoint (along with my son who was 17 at the time) on an overnight coach in Peru 4 years back.
The whole coach was jacked and driven down a dirt track with all the tourists on board.
Having a revolver put to your sons head then my chest brings a moment of clarity. Any heroic ideas from watching too many movies over the years dissipates in milliseconds I can tell you.
It still feels like a bad dream and doubt I had much of any hand and arm coordination at that point.
Guitarhero, try look up how many shootings in Cooenhagen in the last year
Soldiers on the streets for NYE? There's been plenty on the streets with PTSD, substance abuse issues and homelessness for years.
rene59 - Member
Soldiers on the streets for NYE? There's been plenty on the streets with PTSD, substance abuse issues and homelessness for years.
Yeah, used up then forgotten like so many other poor sods.
Edukator - Reformed TrollThe American police often lie about incident such as this. Until they provide video footage then I suggest they just shot him when he opened the door, and that if they did shout to put his hands up he didn't hear or misunderstood. Anyhow American police = trigger-happy cowboys.
But nobody forces any of us Europeans to go to the US, Saudi, Nigeria, Mexico or any other **** up place.
Absolutely this.
Vote with your feet and don't bother with these barbaric nations.
Its actually surprising that the officer was able to hit his intended target at that distance.
Being the hopeless aim we see from a number of US videos
See that sun headline, that is the kind of shit that had brought America to the state its in. The idea that we need snipers on roofs, tanks at airports, a military force in every town to protect us. That headline normalises concepts of a militarised "protection" force that really isn't needed at all.
I've seen a very good point made elsewhere. The police arrive, a guy with no visible weapon walks out of the front door looking confused. They shine a spotlight on him and he raises his hand to shield his eyes. They shoot him.
If it was a real hostage situation, what are the odds that the police have just killed one of the hostages who's been sent out by the hostage-taker to speak to the police?
I imagine being a cop in the States must be pretty scary TBH, and I'm not surprised this sort of stuff happens (innocent people being shot at) . I mean you go to any crime, any incident; knowing full well that the odds are that some-one will have a gun and may very well try to have a go.
Mad society.
I think that a highly trained swat team at close distance should be able to shoot their gun accurately and perhaps more importantly not just shoot it at any person that moves their hands.
How many shots were fired at Jean Paul de Menezes from close range and how many hit him? He was sat down at the time.
11 fired with 7 hits. Now move the shooters away and see many more miss. This was on a brightly lit tube train.
mattsccm - Member
Crooks kill a lot more deliberately!
Well yes, they are dedicated law-breakers, not someone whose motto is "To protect and serve" 🙄
Why do they shoot to kill straight away? why not in the leg or something?
Bullets don't mess around, if you shoot at someone, you are shooting to kill.
Disagree with that latter comment. It can be a case of a shoot to stop. Imagine someone about to bring an axe down on another's head. You can shoot to stop that axe person carrying out the action.
A consequence yes might be that the person could die from the injury .... But that was not the intention of the shot being taken in the first place. The intention being to stop the axe being plunged into another's head.
The Dutch and French police have a good record of shooting people to stop them doing harm, "mettre hors état de nuire" without killing them. Some American police do too. There was a video that went viral of a "suicide by cop" contender having a gun shot out of his hand.
In this case the guy wasn't on a tube train and even with the tiny amount of range shooting I've done I'd have been confident of hitting the guy's lower leg with a rifle at that range. I'd compare it with the shooting accuracy needed on a biathlon but without the oxygen debt, pounding heart and need to shoot five times against the clock.
How many shots were fired at Jean Paul de Menezes from close range and how many hit him? He was sat down at the time.11 fired with 7 hits. Now move the shooters away and see many more miss. This was on a brightly lit tube train.
That just proves my point further... why put 7 bullets into someone?
Seems they all think they are the SAS in an embassy siege against known murdering terrorists... when in fact they are up against someone who [i]might[/i] be armed
In this case the guy wasn't on a tube train and even with the tiny amount of range shooting I've done I'd have been confident of hitting the guy's lower leg with a rifle at that range. I'd compare it with the shooting accuracy needed on a biathlon but without the oxygen debt, pounding heart and need to shoot five times against the clock.
Try telling that to an armed police officer who has had to shoot someone they’d laugh at you.
Targets on ranges are well known for trying to shoot back at you, of course, and so the situation is exactly the same as turning up to a suspected armed siege.
Targets on ranges are well known for trying to shoot back at you
as apposed to un-armed Brazilian plumbers?
Centre of visible mass is what I was taught. Got quite good at it too. Not sure what the police are taught though,probably the same.
They’re taught aiming at limbs is for films.
as apposed to un-armed Brazilian plumbers?
Do you actually think that's what they believed they were dealing with that day?
if they believed the phone call enough to send the swat team round then they must believe it's a hostage situation where some or all of the hostages are dead, therefore it's a stand off situation and of very little risk to the officers so no need at that early stage to put themselves in harms way so no need for them to fire their weapons. Trigger happy murderous ****wits the lot of them.
I was referring to Stockwell.
Try telling that to an armed police officer who has had to shoot someone they’d laugh at you.
They wouldn't/haven't when I've discussed use of firearms with gendarmes and CRS.
I imagine being a cop in the States must be pretty scary TBH, and I'm not surprised this sort of stuff happens
Me neither Nick.
Today in Denver..
http://www.thejournal.ie/denver-police-shooting-3775413-Dec2017/
They wouldn't/haven't when I've discussed use of firearms with gendarmes and CRS.
Aye right
So shoot to kill.Disagree with that latter comment...A consequence yes might be that the person could die from the injury
Quite.They’re taught aiming at limbs is for films.
When I was in the army we had a shooting accident at the base I was stationed at. The round hit the unlucky recipient in the forearm, and exited via his neck.
Bullets do not **** around.
"Aye", Drac.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5c2_1361304595
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42372955
Bails:
That’ll be the Daniel Shaver shooting.
Absolutely horrifying. The officer in charge gave him a series of conflicting confusing requests that had him trying to crawl on the floor with his legs crossed and hands behind his head. The guy was on the ground crying for his life.
Here is PhillyD covering it (watch from 9:30) shows the police body cam footage.
That is murder pure and simple. Policemen high on power abusing their authority to shoot a terrified unarmed man.
Edukator posting some stories isn’t the same as your original claim that you were one quite good at httting a target so could probably shoot someone in a limb. That’s the laughable part alongside comparing it to an Olympic sportsman.
Add to that fact shooting someone in a limb with a rifle poses a high risk of it being lethal.
They’re taught aiming at limbs is for films.
My stories were a reply to this, Drac. At least two European countires have poliices of shooting to remove threat and not to kill. I could link more French cases, at least one in which the gendarme specifically stated in court he aimed at the legs.
When the Americans (and from what you say British) have a shoot the middle (which eqauates to shoot to kill) policy then it should be questionned because other forces around the world only shoot to kill when shooting to maim is inappropriate, their training is not as black and white and encourages "minimum force". There are also different rules of engagement. If you Google shooting involving French police it's very often the criminal who shoots first, this may mean more police/gendarme get shot but also means there is no argument about whether police shooting was in self defense or not.
Different cultures, differnt legal systems, differnet case law verdicts to guide police in their actions. Inform yourself rather than being so adamant, black and white and a .... . But the fact is some police do aim for the legs when that is an appropriate course of action.
How does shooting an armed criminal in the legs prevent them from being a threat?
My stories were a reply to this, Drac
Aye right.
However your reply to my other comment makes much more sense than “I once hit the bullseye at the fairground and won a giant stuffed unicorn toy”
Step away form the keyboard, Drac. I am.