Police Lost the Plot Again

I suppose contacting local farmer was to difficult.

Is there a 24hr local farmer rapid response hotline?

Although that looked more like a calf than a full grown adult, they are big animals and considered dangerous.

300+kg of frightened animal(calf weight)-(1200kg average weight for an adult) running about the streets with members of the public, kids, babies in prams. Cops made the best decision.

I suppose contacting local farmer was to difficult.

Who would’ve done what exactly?

Yep lazy opportunity to bash the police, we weren't there, we didnt have to make the decisions. Let's leave judgment to the IPCC. Must be a nightmare being a cop wondering if every split second decision you make under stressful and difficult circumstances is going to be overly judged by arm chair dwelling internet warriors and police haters.

You would think they'd have a procedure for this, but no Police hate from me until all the facts come out.

I'm usually the last to back the police but on this occasion I think the inappropriately-named Cleverly should have kept his trap shut. Runaway cattle can be dangerous beasts and unless the police routinely have a big game hunter with a tranquiliser gun on standby to deal with this sort of scenario, their decisions might have been the best option in a difficult situation. NB I'm not saying it was definitely the right thing to do, maybe others have better suggestions.

Is there a 24hr local farmer rapid response hotline?

I'm not sure how the fact that there isn't, prevents you for asking if one might help anyway?

Not an observation on whether that would actually achieve anything btw. I just thought it was an uncharacteristically facetious reply from a normally sensible poster that maybe wasn't merited

I’m not sure how the fact that there isn’t, prevents you for asking if one might help anyway?

Bit confused what some random farmer is going to achieve with someone else’s cow that’s been supposedly running wild for hours, before we even get to the question of liability should a member of the public (random farmer) be injured. Surrey police would’ve got less grief if they’d just shot it.

Bit confused what some random farmer is going to achieve with someone else’s cow that’s been supposedly running wild for hours

No a lot probably, that wasn't my point.

I saw that video on Twitter this morning alongside thousands of outraged replies, a pile on to the police.

As above though - spooked cattle are stupid and dangerous. If it had gone trampling through a crowd of people, there'd be calls asking why the police hasn't stopped it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Been aware of this crazy incident for a day, but not long been aware the calf didn't die.

Is there a 24hr local farmer rapid response hotline?

I believe he's not been suspended, just given a wee calf....

Is there a 24hr local farmer rapid response hotline?
I’m not sure how the fact that there isn’t, prevents you for asking if one might help anyway?

Just my experience of having to find who the nearest farmer is, and then once you have, being able to contact them, aren't really things you can often do in a hurry. Last time I had to do it, it took weeks.

You'd presume the owner of the cow couldn't have been all that far away - or rather the farm can't have been far away. But that doesn't make the farm identifiable or the farmer, who could be anywhere, contactable.

I don’t understand why a vet with a tranquilliser gun wasn’t called. Or, worst case, armed response deal with it humanely. Battering it with a car seems stupid.

None of us have the facts.

My understanding is that armed officers can be called to shoot animals in these situations,  so the fact that the cow was recovering in the last report I saw suggests it got away lightly.

I came across 8 loose cattle one day riding home from work. They were a few hundred metres away from getting properly loose on the road.

Not a single.member of the public who I asked to help me was prepared to do so. I managed to corral them in a neuk, and kept them there but literally waving my arms and talking to them.

I called 999 and 3 Police officers attended, and we managed to return them to a field with similar looking cows in it.

Everybody I spoke to about it said "Why didn't you call the farmer?"

Aye, I've got the number right here, as I looked it up on www.random-farmer.com. Halfwits.

My only relevant cow experience was on a club ride on Exmoor, we were (legally) crossing some field tops from gate to gate when 'the farmer' flagged us down at a gate and asked us, as his hands / sons were driving some bullocks through the set of fields would we mind waiting. And in fact, if we lined up along the track at the top, then instead of going through the gate into the field and dispersing, and then needing rounding up again, we'd be able to keep them up on the top track.

Yeah right. It was like ****ing Pamplona, these nigh on half tonne adolescent bulls full of adrenaline from being chased halfway across Somerset by a couple of blokes on quad bikes were definitely going to look at me waving at them and decide to go the other way. Anyone that says get off your bike and get it between you and the irate beast - it doesn't provide a huge amount of comfort.

I've actually seen a bullfight in Madrid (not proud, wouldn't do it again) but one thing I'll say, IDK how the matadors manage to get their balls into those tight suits of lights that they wear. Palms are still sweating now.

Back to Staines/Feltham. I don't know if I'd have run it over but I wouldn't have got out of the car either. And the only farms I think the police are aware of in that area are 'urban arable' IYKWIM, and I don't know what use a group of stoners are for cattle wrangling.

Answered my own question - seems there must be a rapid response farmer squad. Is it just me or are policemen looking younger theses days?

mmmm roadkill burgers

Udderly ridiculous. Clearly someone has a beef with the police. They had tried everything to moove it.

Not a cow apparently, a 10 month old heifer.  Anyone know the breed, may help envisage the size.  I once used a bike to stop up two ends of a lane to hold a small herd of Ayrshires at about that age.  I had come across them on the A449 dual carriageway on the way to work, just north of Wombourne. Got them into the lane off the main road before any polis could mow them down, or too many cowphobes got triggered. Then I had to hold them before help could arrive, this not easy on your own.  As I had the bike I was able to ride down the A449 and block them off at the bottom of the parallel lane.  There was then a stand off until their owner turned up - a right grumpy sod who did not appreciate my interference.

I hope he appreciated his next insurance quote.  You don't get stockmen on bikes in Wolverhampton. A very lucky farmer.

A white cow would have been let off with a caution.

There's footage if you care to look for it, it's not pretty, I can see why they suspended the cop, regardless of the rights or wrongs of it, it wasn't 'by the book'

They were probably on a steak out

You would think they’d have a procedure for this, but no Police hate from me until all the facts come out.

they almost certainly do, it doesn’t involve ramming it with a car - it involves an armed officer shooting it, if necessary.  Now presumably not every cop knows every procedure so the question is should someone have provided clear instructions, did he ignore clear instructions, or was there some reason the “standard” procedure was perceived as too big a time / safety risk.

Answered my own question – seems there must be a rapid response farmer squad.

those police liveried tractors and jcbs are provided by the manufacturers to promote initiatives around site/rural security.  They seem to be an interesting way of public engagement, and if only by the number of people getting angry about them spending money on tractors - it certainly results in engagement!

I don’t understand why a vet with a tranquilliser gun wasn’t called.

I'm imagining Mike from Spaced, but with a vetinary science degree.

I think the Police just wanted burgers. 🍔

I remember the fire brigade saving a bunch of piglets in a barn fire. Few months later the farmer turned up with a bunch of sausages to thank them.

I wasn't there (we weren't there) but having once been an AFO who was authorised to shoot animals, all I can say is its not so simple as wandering up to a rampant beast and putting a round in its head. They don't tend to stand around waiting for you! You need to be at a safe distance with a safe backdrop. It's very likely a 9mm wouldn't incapacitate it. If you are very very lucky .223 may put a cow down, it may just make it even more angry and frightened. What you really need is a .308 or a rifled slug. Problem is if you miss!.........This situation was in an urban / built up area. The round if it misses the cow has to stop somewhere. There isn't the space for it to fly across fields or bury itself in a grassy hill. More than likely it'll bury itself in a building or vehicle. Now have a consideration of the negative publicity that would occur if that were the case. Someone in a photo pointing at a bullet hole in their living room wall!! Stopping a wild beast in full flow with no fields in which to coral it isn't easy. Perhaps giving it a couple of nudges was the only option available at the time.

Time will tell.

so the fact that the cow was recovering in the last report I saw suggests it got away lightly.

I can't believe it's not battered.

argeeFull Member
I believe he’s not been suspended, just given a wee calf….

👏

Or, worst case, armed response deal with it humanely. Battering it with a car seems stupid.

I've been hit with a car a couple of times. I'd rather that than be shot.

With all the caveats of not having all the facts and sympathy for people trying to do a difficult job... what I see here is people trying to deal with a situation from a position of total ignorance. Hamish MacBeth would have had that sorted in jig time.

Missed opportunity for the rural policing team...

Tranquilliser dart sounds so easy but like shooting a runway cow, it’s not a simple as that. Like the bullets needed to stop a running cow, the drugs used in tranquiliser darts are equally lethal. Accidentally stick yourself with some and there had better be someone at hand to administer the antidote and get you to hospital asap. Don’t really want to miss or have the cow knock it out  and have that flying off somewhere to be found by a random child.

Not many vets carry a licence both for a gun suitable and the drugs needed. Never mind the public liability insurance for operating it in a town and not out in a more controlled environment.

in time we will find out if the correct protocols were followed and who gave the orders to use a car to stop it but till then it’s pretty much just speculation.

Pretty jerky behaviour by the cow if you ask me. She was pelting hell for leather down that road. You can't mince your words if you're faced with that dilemma - you just have to take decisive action at the moment you filet will make the difference. The boys will be ribbing him back at the station but they can hold their tongue. In the long run, he'll have a great oxtale to tell.

Newspaper headline - "Pig Attacks Cow"

So that's how they make Smash Burgers.

Or, worst case, armed response deal with it humanely. Battering it with a car seems stupid.

Given the choice I think the heifer would opt for bruised ribs over being shot dead.

People aren't familiar with farm animals these days, I'm not surprised the police behaved as they did and frankly don't think it deserves punishment. Whilst unorthodox their methods worked and nobody got trampled.

I ride horses so I'm aware of how frightened some (a lot) of people are of them. And how some people put themselves where they really shouldn't or make fast close passes. Keep well away from the back end of a horse you aren't very friendly with and be wary of the front. So the police staying safe in the car and using it as a battering ram neither shocks nor surprises.

Keep well away from the back end of a horse you aren’t very friendly with and be wary of the front.

“Dangerous at both ends and crafty in the middle.”🤣

🙂

I seem to recall about 10 years ago a copper got a commendation for running over a guy threatening people on New Mills high street with a knife, so maybe it is standard procedure

I don’t understand why a vet with a tranquilliser gun wasn’t called

Because tranquiliser darts don't work like they do in the movies.

You need to inject the correct amount of drug, it doesn't work instantly, if it only partly works it can make things far worse, and as Bruk has mentioned, very few vets are actually qualified and have the equipment. And I'd very much doubt those vets would even have access to anything capable of stopping such a large animal, as it's not exactly a regular requirement to tranquilise several hundred kilos of animal from a distance.

And as has been said, accurately shooting such a large moving target isn't simple, or without other risks.

The only practical option is usually containment, but doing that in a built up area isn't easy to do. Lots of people seem to think rampaging cattle are an easy thing to handle, but you're talking animals who will quite happily jump over or ram there way through gates/fences/walls/cattle grids if they want to, and have a surprising amount of stamina for something that is usually fairly docile.

Ongoing for several hours and then they decide to end it like this.

Not unsurprising though, with the urban city public and police officers as they are.

maybe some more evidence of how agile cattle are. I was on my way to a job on a farm, chatting to the farmer and the bull got spooked, from a standing start, it jumped the fence, landed on the farm track then instantly jumped the next fence and charged off through a crop.
they're big beasties

There are sharpshooters on-call for some (all?) zoos in case of an escape, but they are few and far between.

I’ve had to heard a few loose cows from the fields around us.  The thing is, they’re scared of you (waving your arms and shouting, moving toward them) until they’re suddenly more scared of something else and then it’s like you’re invisible and they come thundering toward you.  You’re left thinking “what’s going on?” They’re not, they’re just running and if you don’t react quickly enough, it ends very badly, very quickly.

I used to write policies / standard operating procedures for how police vehicles should be used. I also ran a police driving school for three years. At no time did the subject of herding, nudging or disabling livestock ever feature in either role. You just can't account for every scenario or the rules and associated training would be endless.

Sure, police control rooms can call on AFOs to dispatch animals but a heifer ain't an XL Bully and the firepower needed for a clean kill on something so ..err, meaty is hugely unwelcome in an urban environment. Police control rooms do have 24 hour hotlines to call out vets, the military etc etc but tranquilisers are way too slow and that's not what the military are for, especially when the police have their own AFOs.

I'd guess the control room will have called the keyholders for the nearest farms, without success, before the decision was taken to **** the beast with a patrol vehicle. I've seen it done to people armed with axes, swords and knives (pre-taser days) and it's way less lethal to the subject (and potentially any bystanders) than being shot. Having often seen the carnage that sheep, deer, cattle and horses can cause when running loose on the roads, the outcome to this 'high steaks' situation was very much towards the least worse end of possibilities.

Pearl clutching, hand wringing nonsense.

It staggers me how the vast majority of folk will cheerfully pop to McD's on the way home from work (and will be actively hostile towards those who don't), yet when a copper thumps into a burger-precursor outrage erupts from the bottom half of the Internet.

Rank hypocrisy with a side order of any excuse for the bottom half of the Internet to have a pop at the police.

Of course some countries are much better prepared for this sort of thing…

Coincidentally we have highland cattle ‘running wild’ on Minchinhampton Common right now and no one feels the need to get the police to knock them over. Complete over reaction.

The cop didn't really seem to have a plan other than knock it over though, they had plenty of opportunity to at least try and box it in but they just waited (it then recovered and walked off, amusingly startling some guy walking past obviously as he had headphones on). Not sure if he expected to kill it (or at least incapacitate it) with the ramming and I guess it might have looked dead from where the driver was as it was motionless half under the front of the car for a bit.

Coincidentally we have highland cattle ‘running wild’ on Minchinhampton Common right now and no one feels the need to get the police to knock them over.

Minchinhampton Common:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xnf54tX1hDs1c6sbA

Raleigh Rd, Feltham:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UaUuDRht4gs5gpsZ6

🤔

Coincidentally we have highland cattle ‘running wild’ on Minchinhampton Common right now and no one feels the need to get the police to knock them over. Complete over reaction.

A common. Not a suburban street.

We don't deserve a Police force. They spend all day dealing with all sorts of unusual, highly individual situations, are expected to make tough judgement calls, and then face trial by (social) media rather than a proper "what can we learn from this".

If it was so ****ing easy, why aren't all the critics signing up to do the job?

It staggers me how the vast majority of folk will cheerfully pop to McD’s on the way home from work (and will be actively hostile towards those who don’t), yet when a copper thumps into a burger-precursor outrage erupts from the bottom half of the Internet.

Because being shot in the head before being eaten is generally preferable to having ones legs broken needlessly before being shot anyway?

Given the choice I think the heifer would opt for bruised ribs over being shot dead.

Not sure about that. Yes we don’t know the full facts but the poor bugger was scared , running around in an environment it’s not used to , got hit several times by a police car, it’s going to be traumatic plus it’s injuries

The bit of footage I did see I thought ah they are going to ram it and then the armed police kill the poor thing. Nope they ram it then stand around looking at it

Ive seen Police been called to and shoot animals in distress.

Ive seen Police been called to and shoot animals in distress.

Presumably not an option here after quite a long time period. For any number of possible reasons.

We've already heard from a former Police driving instructor. We have an ex armed response officer on the forum, not sure if they've posted as yet.

But we've had enough of experts, eh?

It’s rammed pretty hard but the footage only shows about 90 seconds of the full story.

The usual gobshites mouthing off at emergency services whilst they try to do their job is what caught my attention. One of many reasons I don’t miss my job.

...they had plenty of opportunity to at least try and box it in

And take four vehicles off the road for repairs while the calf injures itself, any fewer and the calf jumps into a shop frontage to escape and injures itself.

It's really not that simple, @downshep +1

BITD the police were responsible for overseeing sheep-dipping (best job ever!) and also wrote out animal movement licences for sales, etc. That lasted into the late-80s I'd guess, but it meant that the contact book for farmers was full

IME any nearby farmer would come out for straying livestock, because next time it could be their stock and the favour returned

These days in Surrey, who knows?

I'm pretty militant on animal abuse / cruelty / sport killing but even I can see suspending that officer in this case is a complete over reaction.

It staggers me how the vast majority of folk will cheerfully pop to McD’s on the way home from work (and will be actively hostile towards those who don’t), yet when a copper thumps into a burger-precursor outrage erupts from the bottom half of the Internet.

Rank hypocrisy with a side order of any excuse for the bottom half of the Internet to have a pop at the police.

Oh interesting, I had assumed those making a fuss were the very people who like to preach at others about eating burgers and drinking milk being murder and destroying the planet?  Cos, your see there's highly emotional voices on all sides of the topic.

I’m pretty militant on animal abuse / cruelty / sport killing but even I can see suspending that officer in this case is a complete over reaction.

I think suspending an officer who has intentionally used a police vehicle to exert potentially lethal force is not a particularly unusual or draconian action.  It does not follow that "suspended" = "will be punished".  Its not bad that police officers have in their head - "if I do this extreme thing, which I believe to be correct, I will need to account for it at an internal investigation".  Even ignoring the cow - it presumably did some reasonable damage to the car.

they had plenty of opportunity to at least try and box it in

Box it it in?

You do realise cattle will climb/jump over a vehicle?

I think suspending an officer who has intentionally used a police vehicle to exert potentially lethal force is not a particularly unusual or draconian action.  It does not follow that “suspended” = “will be punished”.  Its not bad that police officers have in their head – “if I do this extreme thing, which I believe to be correct, I will need to account for it at an internal investigation”.  Even ignoring the cow – it presumably did some reasonable damage to the car.

What's the point of suspending them though? Incase they do it again to the next cow?

Suspending makes sense if there's some reasonable grounds to suspect they're incapable of doing their job.  And even if there was an argument that was the case a putting them behind a desk would seem more proportionate.

Not unsurprising though, with the urban city public and police officers as they are.

Yea.......nope.

The difference is that anyone actually used to cattle definitely wouldn't be getting out of their car to deal with an angry / scared one.

What’s the point of suspending them though? Incase they do it again to the next cow?

Suspending makes sense if there’s some reasonable grounds to suspect they’re incapable of doing their job.  And even if there was an argument that was the case a putting them behind a desk would seem more proportionate.

I suspect its as much to make sure they don't "contaminate" any investigation, influence anyone else, accidentally delete the body worn camera footage, etc.  As with all these things its probably more important that the force is seen to be doing things robustly and taking measures necessary to avoid claims of a cover up than actually being about protecting the public (or ruminants).

The difference is that anyone actually used to cattle definitely wouldn’t be getting out of their car to deal with an angry / scared one.

One will give you a good kicking, a flock of cows is definitely a something to be wary of

Cows are actually surprisingly docile, if curious. If you act in a slow + calm manner, they respond accordingly.

Would it have been ok if they did this to the King's horses when they escaped a couple of weeks ago? Much bigger and faster.

Not unsurprising though, with the urban city public and police officers as they are.

Yea…….nope.

The difference is that anyone actually used to cattle definitely wouldn’t be getting out of their car to deal with an angry / scared one.

I mean if this was somewhere rural, it would have been shooed towards and into some kind of semi enclosed space (even if not a field) pronto by passers by rather than being allowed to roam for hours getting itself into a distressed state. 2 or 3 people would have been enough IME. And the police would likely have some experience of animals, even if they weren't the rural specialist team, and no specific training.

It have now been reported that the cow is fine and recovering well.

At least for the next 12 months, at which point it gets eaten.

Somewhat balanced view from a farmer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg33v21weg3o

'Probably did the right thing at the time'.

The police should stand up for their decisions more rigorously but are scared to do so, understandably, because any slightly misstep is an excuse for the local idiots to come out and riot for the evening.

Most of the general public are idiots when it comes to animals and there's no action the police could have taken in this instance that would have resulted in the public not being outraged in some way.

I feel very sorry for the police these days, they really can't please anyone and people target individual officers on a personal level now which must be a bit frightening for them and their families.

Would it have been ok if they did this to the King’s horses when they escaped a couple of weeks ago? Much bigger and faster.

I was surprised they managed to get them all under control without needing to shoot any of them.

The police should stand up for their decisions more rigorously but are scared to do so, understandably, because any slightly misstep is an excuse for the local idiots to come out and riot for the evening.

The police weren't that worried on this occasion. If they had been, they'd have briefed a couple of journalists off the record that the cow was "no angel", had been wearing a bulky overcoat in summer, had shot first at the cops, was hopped up on meth and had superhuman strength...

“I had assumed those making a fuss were the very people who like to preach at others about eating burgers and drinking milk being murder and destroying the planet?”

Did you miss that the first person to weigh in with their ignorant outrage was the Home Secretary? Not exactly known for his woke views.

Good to see some rational pushback. Maybe the police could have done better, but it wasn’t an easy situation and not likely one they had extensive plans for.

Not unsurprising though, with the urban city. . .

Except in was in a medium sized town in leafy Surrey.  But let’s not let facts get in the way of our ignorant prejudices.

 police officers as they are.

How are they?  All the police officers I’ve met (mainly in leafy Surrey) seem nice people, who would have a lot of trouble dealing with this situation.

Did you miss that the first person to weigh in with their ignorant outrage was the Home Secretary? Not exactly known for his woke views.

Tories will do anything at this stage just to try to gain a few extra votes.

If they'd been ahead in the polls, he'd be applauding the police for their quick action.

a medium sized town in leafy Surrey

Ooh, Feltham sounds lovely, maybe I should go for afternoon tea on the village green this weekend!

the first person to weigh in with their ignorant outrage was the Home Secretary? Not exactly known for his woke views.

James Cleverly is actually a vegetarian except for a monthly British beef roast. In the army, he wrestled an out of control camel to the ground because it was running toward a hostile village with a pair of DShKs that were strapped to its back and he didn't want the Taliban to get them. And he is a massive Warhammer fan with a private YouTube channel dedicated to his collection.

I seem to recall about 10 years ago a copper got a commendation for running over a guy threatening people on New Mills high street with a knife, so maybe it is standard procedure

Not sure the cow was armed with a knife and threatening people though.

People can dress this up all they want to try and excuse it but it was barbaric and unnecessary.