[Closed] Police firearms training for engaging animals

Wouldn't it be great if everyone on here was as funny as they think they are...

I did like your Tanzania (Salford) joke macc. I don't think you for the credit you deserved for that!

Humane kill zones?

How do you aim for centre mass on a snake?

I'm sure Paul Atreides managed it.

I don’t think you for the credit you deserved for that!

I don't think anyone got the chance  - the thread got closed.... just after my Greenpeace one  🙂

Are engaging animals the cute ones that you see people posting short videos of on Twitter?

I know a Response Officer, I’ll ask him next time I see him.

Would they have access to tranquilizers and appropriate dart guns (and an on call vet to get dosages right) to try and avoid an animal fatality in some cases? Or is it simply the case that if you need armed response it's gotten past that point and public safety concerns override the extra effort/cost it would take to have that option?

interesting topic OP...

interesting topic OP…

From vague memory about a local zoo. The options were:
Member of staff using a tranquiliser.
Member of staff or armed response using a rifle.

Probably be specialist unit even within armed response since slightly different weapons might be required depending on the size of the animal. Normal semi auto rifle against an annoyed bull aint going to end well for the cop.

I know Durham police had & maybe still have, a .50 rifle for use on certain animals, but I think it was mainly in case a LARGE animal was on the loose. Mad cow/bull etc.

Would they have access to tranquilizers and appropriate dart guns (and an on call vet to get dosages right) to try and avoid an animal fatality in some cases? Or is it simply the case that if you need armed response it’s gotten past that point and public safety concerns override the extra effort/cost it would take to have that option?

interesting topic OP…

I don't know if they have access, but watching TV shows about Zoos I don't think they'd be suitable, it takes quite a long time to act. 15/20 mins, I agree I think by the time they have made the decision they're a threat they're just going to shoot.

As for bigger Animals, I don't suggest you watch it, but there's a video on YT of Police in the US (I think) trying to deal with an angry escaped Elephant, they fire on it with their usual Rifles, Shotguns and Pistols, it's an extremely barbaric, slow death.

From what I understand, about tranquiliser guns. I doubt anyone would want to use them except in very controlled circumstances. You need a special licence, the chemical is very bad for people, I think you need a second person on standby with the antidote in case you accidentally catch yourself with the dart. Then the dose is hard to get right so the effect can be unpredictable, anywhere between no effect, taking several minutes to have an effect, to the animal dropping dead on the spot. oh and I don't think the guns are very accurate either, so no good at long range. I've been told there are very few vets with the licence, basically some zoo vets and a few who've spent a year doing large animal stuff in africa.

If you want to take a dangerous dog down, you'd be better off hitting it with the butt 🙂

How do you aim for centre mass on a snake?

I'm pretty sure Michael Gove's physiology is the same as anyone else's

I don’t think they’d be suitable, it takes quite a long time to act

There was a case a while back at Colchester zoo where several wolves escaped. One they managed to tranquillise but the others got shot.
So its an option but with significant limits.

arent the local land rangers just brought into deal with those situations (assuming time permits)?

Also, why the hell would you need a 50 cal rifle, that wont just stop an animal (elephant aside) it would poke a hole the size of your head in it - i could understand a decent 7.62 however.

Disappointed that the thread title wasn't about a police recruitment campaign.

How do you aim for centre mass on a snake?

Two methods,
You balance it across two fingers and then draw your fingers together slowly. When they meet that will be the center of gravity.
OR
You pull it straight, shoot it at the head end and ensure the bullet comes out the tail.

Also, why the hell would you need a 50 cal rifle, that wont just stop an animal (elephant aside) it would poke a hole the size of your head in it – i could understand a decent 7.62 however.

Unfortunately most ARV officers are armed with 9mm and 5.56mm calibre weapons, which whilst good calibres to prevent over-penetration of human targets, may do little against larger animals and/or those who have more dense muscular build.

Unfortunately most ARV officers are armed with 9mm and 5.56mm calibre weapons, which whilst good calibres to prevent over-penetration of human targets, may do little against larger animals and/or those who have more dense muscular build.

tis true, but im sure you ve seen like i have that a 50 cal is well over the top.. that said it doesn't stop US cops walking around like robocop.. "Dead or alive you're coming with me!"....

Unfortunately most ARV officers are armed with 9mm and 5.56mm calibre weapons, which whilst good calibres to prevent over-penetration of human targets, may do little against larger animals and/or those who have more dense muscular build.

I think the point was .50 is probably over-kill. (god I watch too much shit on YT) .50 BMG rifles are typically anti-material rifles, used for disabling vehicles and machinery. They're big hulking heavy things and not amazingly accurate (by the standards of 'sniper' rifles). There are other smaller .50 bullets that were designed for killing Hogs, or Boars as we call them.

7.62mm 'battle riles' aren't really the right thing. They're designed for killing people.

Rest assured that horrible people who like to kill big animals for fun have designed all manner of specialist guns and ammunition to do so, that's not to say that if a Police force wanted a massive killing machine in case some massive animal escaped one day they might be able to secure an ex-military job on the cheap.

Would tazers work on animals? - or would you just end up with a very angry bull?

Would tazers work on animals? – or would you just end up with a very angry bull?

I wonder if they would.

They have a very short range though, 5m away from an angry ranging Bull, no thanks.

I wonder if they would.

They have a very short range though, 5m away from an angry ranging Bull, no thanks.

that will be the new Sport in Catalonia in no time...

im sure you ve seen like i have that a 50 cal is well over the top..

Having unfortunately seen what .50 BMG does to humans I'd say it's likely overkill for many animals but similar calibre pistol rounds are often used in 'stopping pistols' by hunters.

It’s a specialist area and most forces will have folk trained in suitable calibre firearms that can be called upon should the need arise.
As has been said, armed response officers carry 9mm pistols and a 5.56mm carbine. The carbine would be sufficient to humanely dispatch an animal the size of a dog under urgent/emergency circumstances. Don’t conflate it entirely with military rifles though, the police moved to the 5.56 to give them a range of ammunition to defeat ballistic vests and other defences which the previous 9mm carbines couldn’t.

Police snipers these days use the civilian equivalent of the 7.62mm. A.308 round can again be loaded for different scenarios. Considered sufficient stopping power for the larger game species in the UK, a .308 would suffice against farm animals. Just. I know officers who have had to despatch bulls, and it isn’t easy.

They’re big hulking heavy things

So are elephant guns. Hence why the designs tended towards double barrels since they werent suitable for bolt action magazines.
Probably safer as well since they unlike .50 they arent designed for range and penetration (dont tend to be very pointy) but just to stop something in its tracks when that track is going to end on top of you.

No idea if you can get a .50 cal round designed to deform for hunting? Most big hunting rounds are blunt lead (mostly) projectiles designed for fairly short range use and deformation rather than powerful pointy rounds designed for long range use like a .50 cal?

So I wonder if the "animal" envisaged is perhaps hiding behind a wall or driving a lightly armoured vehicle?

Would tazers work on animals? – or would you just end up with a very angry bull?

Or a very aroused eel.

I know Durham police had & maybe still have, a .50 rifle for use on certain animals, but I think it was mainly in case a LARGE animal was on the loose. Mad cow/bull etc.

Someone has been winding you up.

I've never heard of .50 BMG being used. The biggest round we have is a .338 Lapua

I know what you're thinking: "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do you, fido?

Bobbies around here have access to a tactical shotgun type thing that can fire a range of rounds, including a solid slug. It’s apparently for lock obliteration but I would imagine it would work on a bull. Wouldn’t fancy the job, mind you...

Shooting larger game with air rifles (50 cal) is becoming more popular oversea.
Not pretty, but effective. Watched one where they killed a buffalo.

My mate (who is an RFD) has occasionally been called on to deal with cows on railway etc..

.338 Lap is a brilliant round but I wouldn't want to unleash one on a residential street. A bit too Jouleish if you get my drift.

I think the 5.56 coupled with the accuracy of a carbine over a pistol would enable a kill of any UK fauna with a couple of head shots.

I'm more interested in the criteria that must be satisfied to take a shot. Do they have to be authorised or is it more a case of "shoot the bastard before it gets in next door's"

OT a tad. I saw a video on YT where they shot a hippo with 600 nitro express. They fed it to local schoolchildren. The hippo meat that is. Very odd.

Someone has been winding you up.

Nope. & I'll tell you how I know.
Some years ago (90's) I had a petrol station about 5 miles outside of Durham City & next to it was a disused quarry. At the time & maybe still, Durham police firearms officers were travelling down to the ranges at Catterick to do their training. Someone looked into the idea of using somewhere closer & looked at using the quarry (It's called Running Waters FYI) There were only a handful of people who'd be affected by any noise, me, being closest, my mate who owned the pub 300 yards down the road, & the people of Shadforth village, about a mile away.
Me, my mate & some dopey councillor were invited to Catterick ranges with the police to see what the crack was (pardon the pun) & were shown what weapons Durham were using at the time. These included H & K semi auto 7.62mm rifles, H & K 9mm pistols, an Accuracy International .243 sniper rifle & the .50 'elephant gun' as they called it. Can't remember what make it was though.
During the course of the morning we were shown each weapon & even got to give each one a shot or two. Apart from the .50 which was demonstrated by an officer.

So stick that in your pipe & smoke it.

Edit, they never got to use the quarry as some specialist from the army came & had a look & mentioned an effect called 'pop over' which means that occasionally a round may go into the backstop but ricochet out of the top, so it was deemed unsafe.

When I worked at the local Safari Park the head keepers of the big bitey animals had to take their guns everywhere. As I’m not one to get a stiffy over guns I never asked them what type/ammo they used

When I worked at the local Safari Park

We've all got one.

.

My Dad was an FAO with GMP, I'll ask him if there was any set procedure for dealing with animals, should see him this week.
When he was at MCR Airport, I know he was armed with an MP5 (9mm) and a S&W Model 10 (.38).
He never said anything about being trained with a .50 cal...

You can kill an elephant with a bow and arrow

Hunting tends to be heart and lungs, animals may not die immediately, but one good hit will be enough. Stopping a rampaging animal is different.

I would imagine the majority of cases such as this very sad event mean that the police are trying to control dangerous dogs within an enclosed space eg garden or house. As such very powerful weapons are probably not needed and indeed from my thankfully limited knowledge of firearms probably more dangerous due to ricochet. If there is no time pressure then drugging dogs via food etc is probably viable (dosages can vary but at all stages the human lives would take priority so overdose would be risked)

Dart gun licences are not that common and having used them in the past to dart highland cattle the drugs are pretty scary to be using in a Controlled environment without doing it with a dangerous or attacking animal.

Trying to shoot at a rapidly moving animal eg dog in an open space is highly unlikely due to the risk of collateral damage and I imagine that police cars might well be used to run animals over if needed.

Most incidents will involve dogs rather than larger animals such as bulls etc as most cases of escaped cattle etc don’t pose a direct risk to human life once trains and motorways etc have been stopped.

From what I've seen any dogs not killed get better treatment than a human. I've witnessed a raid on a suspected drugs factory known to have dogs inside. It turned out there was two rather placid, mean looking dogs inside. In order to remove them to kennels, each dog got it's own van to transport it!!! I think it was about cubic meters of space per dog of similar.

An ex riding buddy was an armed officer- one time he had to provide armed escort to a crocodile part of the way from Kent to Scotland. I think they just had their usual firearms.

We use a shotgun and lead slug. The AFO will often take vet advice but usually its just a single shot into the head.
Standard ammo (9mm/5.56) isn't suitable.