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Signage is replaced according to natural wastage.
I don't think that's the case, they replaced all the ones in my neck of the woods at once, giving translated gaelic names to places that have never had a gaelic name, which is a verly large amount of places indeed. I'm sure there's an foi about how much it all cost.
Drac - bog all to do with the English. This is one Scot commenting on what they saw. It's true as well, all Gaels are bilingual. They're absolutely welcome to their language too but even in Ayrshire (seeing as people like to bring it up so much) at least 200 if not 300 years have passed since it died out.
This is a bit like men deciding what feminism should be, or white people telling black people about racism – isn’t it?
Very much. Only not in the way you imagine. You're the one telling Scots how to run their affairs despite "only just coming round" to believing Scots is even a language. Do you have any idea how ignorant that comes across as? THAT is what gets Scots backs up, ignorant English/others commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
And my point about Gaelic, the second one.
I think some of you are missing the point. It's not because a Gaelic speaker might make a wrong turning, or mistake the police for the butchers van, it is about a more gentle "equal respect". And the tourists love it. We need them. Now more than ever
bigjim
I don’t think that’s the case, they replaced all the ones in my neck of the woods at once
Yep, that's how they generally replace road signs- they'll replace individual damaged ones or outdated ones as-and-when but otherwise they're more or less fleeted and get replaced in blocks, to save on crew time and traffic disruption.
We were on South Uist a couple of years ago & went to the museum near Lochboisdale, a load of schoolkids came in with the teachers & all the kids/teachers were speaking Gaelic (mind you it couldv'e been Icelandic for all I knew) But It sounded absolutely wonderful, in the fact that they were speaking the language of their fathers & therefore retaining part of the the history of their land.
Spot on hels. 👌🏻
They’re absolutely welcome to their language too but even in Ayrshire (seeing as people like to bring it up so much) at least 200 if not 300 years have passed since it died out.
Seems a good idea to revive it then.
Drac
And this is why some Scottish people have a dislike for the English.
Squirrelking
Drac – bog all to do with the English
Then
THAT is what gets Scots backs up, ignorant English/others commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
On this, as said the cost won't be high. I have no issue with road signs and other Gaelic branding. I can see why it is done.
From my point of view I don't feel a strong attachment to it as a language and don't feel it is something I should be learning. I would rather see my kids learning a language which would be more beneficial to them or others they confer with on a more regular basis. From the point of view of societal integration, Scottish kids might be better served learning Polish.
Isn't this a case of an English guy (Drac) telling a Scot (Squirrelking) what the Scots think of English people and about Gaelic? #britsplaining
Or have I misunderstood who's who?
Or ignorant non-Gaelic speakers commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
Only not in the way you imagine. You’re the one telling Scots how to run their affairs despite “only just coming round” to believing Scots is even a language. Do you have any idea how ignorant that comes across as?
Before you get your back up at 'arrogant English' you should see the results of a Scottish Government survey looking into Scots language in 2010. 64% of respondents did not feel that Scots was a distinct language.
The demographic was only 1000 people but shows how easy it can be for others to make a mistake if Scottish people are unsure of its status.
Or ignorant non-Gaelic speakers commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
This^ Squirrelking is the most scathing of Gaelic here, and certainly does not appear to be an authority but then clasps onto it when an Englishman ventures an honest opinion.
The thing about a supposed democracy isn't that the minorities should be crushed.
For example a lot of road users think too much money is wasted on provision for cyclists, and they're dying out - there's not as many as there were in 1959 for example - so why should we waste money on their past-time?
On that basis, let's not listen to the people who cycle and just listen to the people who hate them instead...
hopeforthebest - Correct, except it wasn't Drac I was having a go at.
Athgray - Drac had said THAT incident was why Scots hate the English. I was saying that in THAT particular case it was one person commenting honestly on what they had seen. My ire was reserved for Molgrips who seems to be equating everything with Wales when the two are nothing alike.
Seems a good idea to revive it then.
What about Pictish? Or Saxon? Or middle English? Or Latin? Where does the buck stop? What's the point in reviving something that is effectively dead other than for sentimental reasons?
On this, as said the cost won’t be high. I have no issue with road signs and other Gaelic branding. I can see why it is done.
And I also said that at the start. It looks nice but IMO is nothing more than a PR exercise.
Or ignorant non-Gaelic speakers commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
Which is also a fair point. I can however comment as to the extent that Gaelic has touched my life and that of my family which is to say none at all. Whereas most folk I know have enough understanding of Scots as to get by.
I'm not saying it's an either or thing, only that one dying language is being pursued in favour of another, more relevant one.
Unfortunately Pictish is already extinct, and very little is known about it. So it would be very difficult to revive in any form. It is unclear how it was related to Gaelic, but seems some of it has been absorbed into modern Gaelic. ie there are a few Gaelic words of Pictish origin, and probably some of the grammar.
Latin is quite widely taught/read/spoken around the world, so no danger of it dying out anytime soon.
Am I right in thinking that the language spoken in Scotland at the time of the Roman invasion is considered to be similar to Welsh?
I'm sure I heard that in some late night documentary I watched at some point.
Oh, the above isn't a dig at anyone, I'm just checking my facts! Lol
Am I right in thinking that the language spoken in Scotland at the time of the Roman invasion is considered to be similar to Welsh?
The Picts probably spoke a variant of the Brittonic language so yup related to Welsh (and Cornish).
It’s worth bearing in mind that there are still Scots alive today who were beaten at school for speaking Gaelic. As a language, it didn’t simple ‘die out’; it was actively repressed to encourage cultural homogeneity. The money spent on encouraging it as a spoken language is as much about retaining that culture as it is about the language itself. Not a speaker myself, but think it’s a beautiful language that has intimate connections to the places it’s spoken and well worth the money spent on keeping it alive.
It’s not very expensive and the tourists love it. It’s branding/marketing, not an attempt to convert people.
If Scots want to encourage tourism and get it up to Irish levels, I'd suggest there are places to start other than road signs.
What about Pictish? Or Saxon? Or middle English? Or Latin? Where does the buck stop? What’s the point in reviving something that is effectively dead other than for sentimental reasons?
Well now you're being silly but I did Latin at school and it's used today in science remember. It isn't a recent language such as Gaelic which as mentioned has been used daily in many parts of Scotland.
If Scots want to encourage tourism and get it up to Irish levels, I’d suggest there are places to start other than road signs.
I'm pretty sure that's not the only thing they do.
Yep, that’s how they generally replace road signs- they’ll replace individual damaged ones or outdated ones as-and-when but otherwise they’re more or less fleeted and get replaced in blocks, to save on crew time and traffic disruption.
It was pretty new signage that was replaced for no other reason but the gaelic lettering initiative, trust me it's been my homeland of 40 years! It was the cause of much local derision as the roads themselves were (and still are) in terrible state but they kept replacing hundreds of road signs for no real reason at great cost.
Looks like a police car to me. More than some:
Wha... Bu...
Surely it should be Polis and Poileas?
Hell of a lot of money wasted on restoring castles as well. & don't get me started on the money spent by the NHS on keeping old people alive! Let em die ffs.
Can anyone tell me what the extra cost of having Gaelic on the roadsigns is?
The OP doesn't actually care about the cost. It's simply a means of having a bash at the current government.
Is this the numpty SNiPs?
The extra cost would be minimal, the Gaelic Board are happy enough with Gaelic added during scheduled replacement. (They approve all Gaelic language plans) I know this as I did one for a big Scottish NDPB I worked for some years ago. To this day I don't know why they asked me to do it, but it was fun to work on something a bit different.
Fwiw my kids* get taught Spanish and French at primary school off the back of an SNP government policy. I'm sure the OP wishes it was Gaelic to beel(beal?)a wee bit mair.
* Parents too if they wish to attend.
FWIW my kid got taught German at primary school off the back of a French government policy and now lives in Berlin.
These kinds of opinions - the complaints about bilingual signs - are the emotive remnants of the British Empire.
It's an arrogant and infantile view of the world, one which still dominates British/English life.
It's sold as being pragmatic and economic and all about 'common sense' thinking. But it's not. It's mostly a feeling.
It's about the past - the glory days of empires and wars. Something lost.
When life was simple and the whole world undestood the superiority of British/English language and culture.
It's what UKIP, Daily Mail, 'Tommy Robinson' et al succesfully tap into.
copa
These kinds of opinions – the complaints about bilingual signs – are the emotive remnants of the British Empire.
It’s an arrogant and infantile view of the world, one which still dominates British/English life...
Well said.
It comes from the same bitter and twisted well as racism and sectarianism IMO.
WTF do so many people want the culture of a substantial part of the people of Scotland eradicated?
Just evil arseholes really.
What copa sez. The sort of sentiment expressed, deriding the desire of local governments to encourage the advancement of regional languages comes straight out of the playbook of the Chinese government, where all ethnic diversity has to be absorbed into greater Chinese society. The same thing is being done in Malaysia, small ethnic groups are being *encouraged* to abandon their entire way of life, or else lose any modern benefits enjoyed by the greater population, things like power, communications, etc.
Agree with ditch_jockey as well.
Wow. That's quite a leap. First EDL then "evil"?
Perspective maybe? Nobody is proposing shipping them out or executing them.
Perhaps if you're talking about bitter and twisted in the same post you should reread that.
An uninformed view is absolutely not the same as sectarianism or racism.
This thread makes me almost miss the self appointed STW Hammer of the Scots...I like the dual signs,and know the tourist do so am all for it, but could chuck in an SNPBAD! if that helps?
@Scotroutes That's why I asked the question.
Several claims about the extra cost but no actual figures
@Scotroutes That’s why I asked the question.
Several claims about the extra cost but no actual figures
Freedom of information request below with attached pdf letter puts the cost of a fairly extensive signage upgrade to include Gaelic at £2 million. A82 signage upgraded and many trunk roads to some main west coast ports. £115,000 was spent on signage at the Crianlarich bypass. A good chunk of that though would be on excavation work for pillars and the cost of pillars themselves.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/gaelic_road_signs
Thanks for the link Athgray. The actual extra cost incurred by having Gaelic on the signs would seem to be minimal
squirrelking
An uninformed view is absolutely not the same as sectarianism or racism.
It becomes of the same ilk when you persist with it after have the opportunity to be informed.
And I didn't say it was the same, I said "It comes from the same bitter and twisted well as racism and sectarianism"
plus the folk like me epicyclo - h don't mind the gaelic signs but think them a piece of nonsense in the lowlands. I don't object, I don't make false claims about cost. I just think its silly as it does nothing to advance gaelic culture it just looks daft to be making up gaelic place names and words for place and things that never had them.
All languages have to evolve, you either use foreign words or "invent" your own. Just looking around me there's a Magnétocassette which is a combination of magnétophone and cassette; un ordinateur, un scanner pour numériser les documents; un casque sans fil pour écouter la musique; un clavier; une souri; un appareil numérique; un téléphone portable; un amplificateur, une télévision...
IMO it's better to invent a word than adopt one no-one understands. The Germans are particualarly good at this. I watched an amusing programme on rbb. Passers by were asked what American slogans used in marketing blurb meant, the majority of people got them wrong and the guesses were sometimes very amusing. Anglizismen und Denglish nerven mich! I do like "handy" but "shoppen", "joggen", "chillen"... Idioten.
tjagain
...I just think its silly as it does nothing to advance gaelic culture it just looks daft to be making up gaelic place names and words for place and things that never had them.
Sadly, that belief is a testament on how successfully Gaelic was eradicated in many areas.
I am not an expert on the place names, but there cannot be many places in Scotland that did not originally have Gaelic names, eg parts of the Borders and the Northern Isles, but most of the vituperation about the Gaelic names is coming from parts of Scotland which definitely did have them, and it is stirred up for the reasons I have given.
The cost of the signs are peanuts in the grand scheme of things, and is not the true reason for the most of the objections.
Why should the Gaelic people have to fight against so much hatred for the protection of their culture and language in their own country? The objections to the road signs are just the tip of the iceberg.
BTW here's a Gaelic map of Scotland by someone who has researched placenames
But why focus on Gaelic? If this was an effort to show off Gaelic in areas where it is active, or was more prevalent recently, or that has a lot of gaelic history then that would be something I'd probably support.
Police cars in Edinburgh with Poileas is getting a bit silly though. Edinburgh (and its original name) predates the Gaelic language being spoken here and, if memory serves, the Gaelic name for Edinburgh is a translation from another old language.
Scotland has a rich and diverse history, including our languages. Gaelic has been singled out to the exclusion of other aspects of this and turned into something it is not.
It’s involved a lot of research, trawling through place names books to discover the Celtic etymologies of Scottish place names, and translating English and Scots names, in order to turn them into a form of Gaelic that’s acceptable to modern speakers of the language.
so inventing place names in fake gaelic for places that never had them and also conflating celtic and gaelic culture
There is ( IIRC) much debate amongst historians if there ever was a "celtic" culture and peoples. If there was it was an awful lot wider spread than just scotland.
As I said I have no objection to doing this where it makes sense. It just makes the country look silly when trying to invent something that either was never there or died out hundreds of years ago. Thats my view / opinion.
Police cars in Edinburgh with Poileas is getting a bit silly though.
There is (regardless of your political views on the matter) a single police force in Scotland now. It makes a lot of sense that if you have a single force you leverage the buying power so that you order one fleet of vehicles all liveried the same way rather than incur special costs for the vehicles on the western isles where nobody would question Gaelic markings. One graphic design. One artwork setup fee. One order template. One fleet of vehicles you can move around the country to cover breakdowns, resource changes, cycle the vehicles that get used least. Reinforcing a message/culture of one unified force to the staff and public. Now justify to me why you would spend MORE in times of austerity to run two “brands”?
tjagain
...There is ( IIRC) much debate amongst historians if there ever was a “celtic” culture and peoples. If there was it was an awful lot wider spread than just scotland...
I'm sure you'll find that view quite common. The history we get taught has been written in English and filtered through an Anglophone perspective. Vae victis, they don't get to write their own history, so it has to reside in the oral tradition, and if that can be killed off, then there's nothing.
If it was wider than just Scotland is irrelevant here. We're talking about opposition to the use of a native language in Scotland.
When can we start taking the English version off all the road signs in the Gaeltachd?
The debate on language in Scotland would be less partisan and induce less bad blood if the place names were covered up by sellotaping Greggs vegan sausage rolls to them.
It pains me to say it but I find myself in agreement with SOME of what epicyclo says, however it is clear some of what he says is clouded by the experiences of his youth and teenage years between the late 13th and and mid 18th century.
Scotroutes, your link was interesting, however concentrating on the history, detail and relevance of Gaelic names would have been more pleasurable but for a sensationalist title aimed at self promotion. This would only lead to a needless tit for tat exchange as seen in the comments on the page.
Language is a hot topic in Northern Ireland and certainly a true contributing factor to the paralysis suffered in government this last while. We should not be like that.
Language is constantly fluid but people act as if it is static. Would a Gaelic speaker now understand a Gaelic speaker in the 11th century? Similarly would an English speaker understand an English speaker of medieval times. Gaelic was brought by incomers to the land as was every language. Language development is like a magpie. You steal, borrow, alter bits from other languages to further your own. Gaelic was widespread in Scotland but that was almost 1000 years ago, it has declined ever since and not wholly down to conquest and a desire to defeat it. I can wholly understand most people's disconnection from it. I don't have any real urge to learn it, and have previously stated my opinion that for non native speakers there may be more useful second language options.
Gaelic's position is precarious. Numbers of speakers are low and it seems its challenges in the here and now come from the modern interconnected world and population demographics. It's place should be saved, and I suppose an SNP government is probably the best one to do so. Road signs are an easily implemented and affordable step that can be taken. They may improve tourism which will help offset costs, and you know what, if they bring a few words to non Gaelic speakers is that such a bad thing?
so inventing place names in fake gaelic
First time I've seen you obviously trolling under your new pseudo TJ. Gaelic is whatever Gaelic people want it to be and you have have no more right to call it fake than the inventions of the Académie française when they come up with a new French word.
Scotroutes, your link was interesting, however concentrating on the history, detail and relevance of Gaelic names would have been more pleasurable but for a sensationalist title aimed at self promotion.
Agree - but I did think the main part of the article was pretty relevant to this thread and didn't want to just cut'n'paste.
It’s place should be saved, and I suppose an SNP government is probably the best one to do so.
Previous Scottish governments have also made commitments to support the language, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_Language_(Scotland)_Act_2005
which makes the OPs attempt to make it party political somewhat desperate, to say the least.
If its the use of the Gaelic on signs and the Polis cars around the whole of Scotland, perhaps the correct Gaelic should be used. Strathclyde and a the Borders should be using Old Welsh. Strathclyde being the last Welsh speaking kingdom of the not yet existent Alba. Edinburgh also I believe?
You’re the one telling Scots how to run their affairs
Don't be ridiculous. I'm simply offering an alternative point of view, one which has been explored and debated extensively with exactly the same arguments down here in Wales for quite a long time.
Re the other languages, I think that people are trying to reduce the argument to absurdity. Gaelic is clearly a distinct and living language in Scotland today with many speakers, so it should be given official status in my opinion. Languages should not be left to die out after being mortally wounded by imperialism. Culture and diversity would be lost.
Imagine if Britain had lost the war, and we were all being forced to speak German? I think quite a few people would want to keep English alive don't you?
athgray
...It pains me to say it but I find myself in agreement with SOME of what epicyclo says, however it is clear some of what he says is clouded by the experiences of his youth and teenage years between the late 13th and and mid 18th century....
🙂
Re the other languages, I think that people are trying to reduce the argument to absurdity. Gaelic is clearly a distinct and living language in Scotland today with many speakers, so it should be given official status in my opinion. Languages should not be left to die out after being mortally wounded by imperialism. Culture and diversity would be lost.
You say that but that is exactly what is being done to Scots. Gaelic may have been there first but Scots has been spoken in Scotland for over 700 years having taken over from Gaelic (which in turn took over from the Brythonic and Pictish languages more in common with Welsh). People are up in arms about Gaelics status whilst roundly ignoring the fact that Scots as a language is being treated in exactly the same way as Gaelic was in the past barring a once a year dusting off for Burns night.
As I said it's not an either/or situation, there is not one language that was spoken in Scotland and I'm not sure there ever was.
Molgrips is correct if you lose a language a whole culture goes along with it.
The success of the campaign to promote Gaelic has not caused the parlous state of the Scots leid.
I was brought up to speak "properly " in the classroom and when meeting "important"people. Yet at hame and amang freens we aye spake Scots. It's that attitude that the Scots leid was incorrect or for less "important" people that has led to it's current state
Scots is in a slightly different position to Gaelic
I was brought up to speak “properly ” in the classroom and when meeting “important”people. Yet at hame and amang freens we aye spake Scots. It’s that attitude that the Scots leid was incorrect or for less “important” people that has led to it’s current state
In the classroom, there are more and more pupils in Scottish classrooms with English as an additional language. Whilst trying to come to terms with that, casual use of Scots language could provide an extra unneeded challenge. Scots words also vary dependent on locality. For occasions such as job interviews perhaps something more universal is more appropriate.
From the survey I mentioned it appears that a challenge Scots has as a language is that many Scottish people dont even consider it a language. They think Scots is 'Rabbie Burns' and 'ah cannae unerstone it, so ah dinnae really ken Scots'. This attitude needs turnt on its heid. Perhaps teaching some contemporary Scottish literature with modern social commentary would be better and more interesting in school.
It's like learning to play the violin at a young age and being given stale classical music to play. That appreciation may come later but it must be possible to retain youngsters playing instruments or gaining an appreciation for language without harking back a few hundred years for source material.
You say that but that is exactly what is being done to Scots.
That's the point I was trying to acknowledge earlier, about Scots being a language with its own heritage and culture. I've read that it's comparable to the differences between Norwegian, Swedish and Danish, however it may seem more appropriate to compare to the situation in Switzerland (as I understand it) where people are taught High German in schools however they speak Swiss German at home. Or at least it would be if Switzerland and Germany were part of a union...
Scots may be a dialect or a language but the point as made above is that it's considered improper, rather than the 'correct' way of speaking. I do wonder if or how things could change. But there are many different language situations all over the world, we only have an Anglophone perspective. For example in Finland after a certain level subjects like science and engineering are taught in English simply because of the availability of things like textbooks and support material in specialist areas. So I could imagine a hybrid approach where sciences etc being taught in English whilst using Scots for humanities or literature.
As I said it’s not an either/or situation, there is not one language that was spoken in Scotland and I’m not sure there ever was.
That's true in most countries - even England until relatively recently. Belgium, Switzerland, Italy, Finland even Canada all have multiple languages in different areas that aren't reciprocally understood.
@ Athgray agreed. Mind ye It's guid fun at oor hoose Mrs gordimhor fae Aiberdeenshire and me fae Ayrshire kin jist about mak oot whit/ fit the ither yin's meaning ath oot resorting tae Inglis nor Gaelic
there is not one language that was spoken in Scotland and I’m not sure there ever was.
There could well be in future though, and not just in Scotland but worldwide. The way young people communicate now has changed dramatically over the past 20years to the point that a number of young people find being spoken to by strangers/not well known people offensive. Not unusual now for people to have best friends they have never met and never actually spoken to. Who knows what the next 20years holds.
@ Athgray agreed. Mind ye It’s guid fun at oor hoose Mrs gordimhor fae Aiberdeenshire and me fae Ayrshire kin jist about mak oot whit/ fit the ither yin’s meaning ath oot resorting tae Inglis nor Gaelic
Funny that. I got a new phone before Christmas. It has Bixby on it, the Samsung version of Alexa. She causes a stooshie in oor hoose. I am the only person she can't understand. She picks up my 4 year old daughters ramblings but struggles with my requests. I did try the posh Cockney voice the Scottish woman does in the famous YouTube clip with Alexa and that did work better.
Presumably those who think Scots is not a language in its own right would have clearly understood the "English" of the fishing villages along the Moray coast of not that many years ago. 🙂
Dialects can be hard to understand even if they are the same language. The line between dialect and language is pretty blurry, that's why linguists are still undecided about Scots.
Scots is recognised as a distinct language in the UK:
Notwithstanding the UK government's and the Scottish Executive's obligations under part II of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, the Scottish Executive recognises and respects Scots (in all its forms) as a distinct language, and does not consider the use of Scots to be an indication of poor competence in English.
It also has it's own vocabulary and manner of speaking with words borrowed from languages other than English.