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Don't get me wrong..if this was a crack head tripping out weidling a knife, I'd take a different stance, but it wasn't, so I'm not.
Am I to assume that you're missing quite a few qualifying criteria in this scenario?
For interest here's a report on how selection processes worked during Covid and the recruitment of the first tranche of 20000 new police numbers.
It was necessarily rushed and had flaws including a "lack of two-way communication" with candidates and didn't place "them in a challenging encounter."
But there was support for an assessment model that incorporated more face-to-face and interactive aspects.
Face-to-face interviews, either in person or online, were proposed as it was felt this would allow forces to meet and better assess candidates prior to appointment. Several stakeholders felt this more personable approach would address the key limitation of the recorded interview format used within the online assessment, which was the lack of two-way communication.Role play was viewed as an important element absent from the online assessment, one that provided candidates with the closest representation of the job by placing them in a challenging encounter.
I suspect that’s where the problem starts… you do your training, you attend a call with a crack head and use force and you get a pat on the back, nobody questioning if you needed to go that far. Then you go to another call and do the same, you develop a reputation for getting in quick to get the assailant under control. Yesterday’s video described it as “a smithy special”. Then you turn up at a case which has SOME of the same characteristics and you treat it exactly the same way. That level of force might be appropriate for some situations but I’d say regardless of the amputation, age and wheel chair deploying that level of force to someone in a room alone sitting down with small knife who has not made any attempt to harm himself of you is, within 87 seconds is probably going to (should) end up with you getting hauled over the coals. I can’t decide if them both doing it means there’s a cultural issue or that once one escalates the second essentially has to follow to prevent further harm.Don't get me wrong..if this was a crack head tripping out weidling a knife, I'd take a different stance, but it wasn't, so I'm not.
“I’d just have grabbed his wrist” is easy words but he will have been trained not to get that close unless no choice. Had he ended up injured he’d have been explaining to his boss why he chose to grab his wrist.
”it contributed to the death” - the IOPC investigated as possible manslaughter and cps concluded the charges are assault. They have the facts - it’s notoriously difficult to identify where someone gets covid, it’s not like care homes are sterile. He was admitted to hospital but I don’t think he’d have been kept overnight for pava and taser - that sounds like the underlying UTI.
”people with dementia” - he didn’t have dementia, they didn’t bother to understand who/what/why there was an old guy in a room on his own with a knife making wild threats.
"He caught the covid which he died from the hospital and my understanding is that he was only in the hospital as the consequences of the action of a couple of coppers."
That is speculation.
He had some medical condition causing his aggressive behaviour which may have required hospital medical treatment as any treatment he was receiving for it in the care home obviously wasn't working.
I just can't understand the rush to tazer/spray and baton him when he was no immediate threat. IME where a threat is contained the police will wait for hours to avoid using force.
That is speculation.
He had some medical condition causing his aggressive behaviour which may have required hospital medical treatment as any treatment he was receiving for it in the care home obviously wasn't working
Now that's "speculation"! Why on earth have you assumed that the treatment he was recieving for his urinary tract infection "obviously wasn't working"?
Urinary tract infections, which often leave elderly people highly confused, are generally very treatable and don't require hospitalisation.
Maybe I am speculating too but this sentence in the article suggests a very strong link between the incident and him being taken to hospital:
Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
I think the likelihood that he was taken hospital because of a prearranged appointment rather than because he had been peppered sprayed and his frail 92 year body had been exposed to 50,000 volts are rather small.
i dont think we actually know he had been diagnosed before the incident? My experience is often the sign that gets real action is the confusion. Its certainly not uncommon for people to be admitted with UTIs once they've reached the confusion stage. If the treatment was working he wouldn't be so confused that a normally placid guy is threatening to murder staff.Now that's "speculation"! Why on earth have you assumed that the treatment he was recieving for his urinary tract infection "obviously wasn't working"?
Urinary tract infections, which often leave elderly people highly confused, are generally very treatable and don't require hospitalisation.
Maybe I am speculating too but this sentence in the article suggests a very strong link between the incident and him being taken to hospital:
Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
I think the likelihood that he was taken hospital because of a prearranged appointment rather than because he had been peppered sprayed and his frail 92 year body had been exposed to 50,000 volts are rather small.
I don't think anyone has suggested he had a pre-arranged appointment. It was reported he was taken to hospital to have the taser barbs removed But that is a 5 minute job, so even with A&E waiting times like the UK doean't explain why he was still there 22 days later. I'd respectfully suggest that since the prosecutor has not tried to draw a link that once the barbs were out the docs tried to get to the bottom of the UTI and decided to admit him (and/or the care home didn't want him back after threatening to kill their staff). There would be nothing particularly unusual about an old man getting a UTI, becoming confused, ending up needing minor injury treatment and then being admitted for treatment. Nor even for them never to leave the hospital again.
If the treatment was working he wouldn't be so confused
Why wouldn't he be? Just because the symptoms of the UTI didn't clear up as soon as he had taken his first antibiotic it doesn't mean that the treatment wasn't working.
By all means speculate that he was maybe hospitalised after the incident because of his UTI but if we are going to speculate I prefer my speculation that it was probably connected to 50,000 volts going through his 92 year old body.
Btw do coppers still carry truncheons as well as tasers? I reckon a truncheon across the knuckles would have likely loosened his grip on the cutlery similar to a butter knife, and have been potentially less dangerous.
Btw do coppers still carry truncheons as well as tasers? I reckon a truncheon across the knuckles would have likely loosened his grip on the cutlery similar to a butter knife, and have been potentially less dangerous.
They tried that, you can see it in the bodycam video on the original article. First pepper spray, then a truncheon (baton) to feebly try and knock the knife out of his hand, then taser. TBF the baton seems to the only reasonable part. The reported "hit him with a baton" doesn't mean "beat him up" as might be implied, it means gave a single whack towards the knife in his hand, at arms length.
He still has the knife. I'm concerned if we leave him on his own he's going to hurt himself
So we decided to cut to the chase and hurt him properly ourselves.,.
The nature of the interaction with the police and the subsequent, unrelated passing.
"Unrelated" is a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.
doean't explain why he was still there 22 days later.
Was he though? Is it clear that he died in hospital? I missed that if so.
We've reached the point these sorts of threads always hit eventually, which is Guesswork World. Always remember the Four Fs. Ernie seemingly knows (somehow?) why he was admitted to hospital and exactly where and when he "later" contracted covid, a disease particularly dangerous because of its long asymptomatic gestation period.
What was he admitted to hospital for? Did he already have a Cov-2 infection before admittance, did he contract it in hospital, did he contract it back at the home post-discharge (assuming he was sent home again)?
The actions of the police were deplorable, but holding them accountable for his death is moon logic. Even if he did contract Cov-2 in hospital, that's surely a "the hospital" problem. If someone got hit by a car whilst going to the shop to buy milk, would we blame the shop because if it was closed then they wouldn't have been going there, or blame the milkman for missing a delivery?
Ernie seemingly knows (somehow?) why he was admitted to hospital and exactly where and when he "later" contracted covid
If you are going to comment on what I wrote at least try to be honest 💡
I said very clearly that I was "speculating" on why he was admitted to hospital based on this particular sentence in the article :
Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
Plus my limited medical knowledge which leads me to suspect that a 92 year old who has just 50,000 volts discharged through his frail body probably needs to be checked by a doctor.
We've reached the point these sorts of threads always hit eventually
Yup, we certainly have.
I said very clearly that I was "speculating"
You said "He caught the covid which he died from the hospital and my understanding is that he was only in the hospital as the consequences of the action of a couple of coppers." That's not speculating, it's a direct statement of fact that he caught Cov-2 at the hospital followed by a belief - not a speculation but a belief, it's "my understanding" - that the police hospitalised him.
You also said "Maybe I am speculating too" - so maybe you aren't? That's hardly "very clearly" now, is it.
And you challenge me to keep it honest. Sheesh.
it's a direct statement of fact that he caught Cov-2 at the hospital
Yeah based on what the article claims the court was told.
But ffs get a grip, I am not claiming to know anything beyond what is reported in the article. I am assuming that he went to hospital after the incident in which the 92 year old was peppered sprayed and tasered because that is how I read the news report.
You are free to speculate differently, as you are that butter knives can't be serrated, or whatever other weird thing you appear to want to get wound up about.
a belief - not a speculation but a belief, it's "my understanding" - that the police hospitalised him.
It's beyond debate that the police hospitalised the 92 year old man in question.
"The confrontation was treated as a medical incident...Mr Burgess had to be taken to the Conquest Hospital to have the Taser barbs removed."
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/25180738.man-thought-dying-tasered-sussex-police/
To be truthful, neither BBC nor Sky say or don't say when he got Covid. Just that it was later.
BBC: Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
Sky: Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted COVID-19. He died 22 days later at the age of 93.
[The similarity of the reporting makes me think it's a PA syndicated report with a bit of editing]
There's an implication but no actual statement that he caught it in hospital, or how much later.
If we want to play at speculating, what damage would be caused to a frail 92 year old by being hit (on the hand or lower arm) by an modern extendable baton? Could that be why he was taken to the hospital after the incident? Is a tazer and pepper spray possibly a safer option for a pensioner who may have brittler bones than the usual recipient of a baton strike?
I get UTI/bladder/kidney infections all the time, increased temperature leads to irrational behaviour and confusion can follow.
Failure of the care home to successfully treat his symptoms as sepsis can rapidly set in with uti infections and is a major cause of deaths in care homes, failure on the police officers who attended as they were woefully ill equipped/trained for such a situation and their behaviour was utterly unacceptable and certainly contributed as a major factor leading to his ultimate demise in hospital.
TBF the baton seems to the only reasonable part.
Not that simple. As the theotherjonv says (to paraphrase) ****ting a 92yo with a baton hard enough to disarm them stands a reasonable chance of giving them a broken/fractured/severely bruised arm needing hospital attention.
All of the choices can have outsized problems depending on the health of the victim eg pepper spray someone with lung issues and its problematic whereas someone else with a dodgy heart might shrug that off but not do well with a taser.
I've never wrapped my head around the former getting through the process, I don't think the 'standard' is as high as people think it is, or would like.
I am guessing both of these were in the army? So both got through army selection before the army found out one of them was a muppet?
Given the restrictions nowadays on giving an honest reference especially when not doing so might make a "you" problem a "them" problem it seems to be a general recruitment issue. Some people are great at bullshitting.
Having had to do some interviews recently its always a relief doing it for contractors where if I know if we are fooled its far easier to bin them off.
In Sept 2019 Boris opened police recruitment up to a target 20,000 new officers
Or rather Johnson as opposed to his popular name (by all accounts he uses his actual first name Alexander or Alex for his friends) and it is replacing the 20,000 officers sacked during tory austerity.
Phrasing it how you have buys into the Johnson myth making and hides the damage caused by the tories.
I am guessing both of these were in the army? So both got through army selection before the army found out one of them was a muppet?
Aye, but the bar is very low. With 8ish years of opportunity and development one was a ****wit, the other quite exceptional.
Unfortunately testimonials are very generic unless you got yourself into trouble or were exceptional.
I wouldn't trust the former to find his own arse with a map.
If he appeared on a BBC news segment tasering an disabled OAP, it wouldn't shock me.
Phrasing it how you have buys into the Johnson myth making and hides the damage caused by the tories.
That's me told. Enlighten me with a source evidencing "20,000 officers sacked during tory austerity."
Maybe they retired/resigned/transferred/were sacked with good reason, which is a somewhat different thing.
Recruitment didn't match leavers in England and Wales for many years:
2010 (Conservative Y1) 6,912 recruits 6,825 left
2011 (Cameron) 2,197 recruits 6,664 left
Recruitment stayed below leaver numbers until:
2019 (Boris Y1) 9,428 recruits 8,727 left
2020 (Boris Y2) 14,518 recruits 8,546 left
what damage would be caused to a frail 92 year old by being hit (on the hand or lower arm) by an modern extendable baton? Could that be why he was taken to the hospital after the incident?
No.
"The confrontation was treated as a medical incident...Mr Burgess had to be taken to the Conquest Hospital to have the Taser barbs removed."
THEARGUS.CO.UK
Police officers found not guilty of assault.
I would like to hear the reasoning!
Police officers found not guilty of assault.
I would like to hear the reasoning!
Well its enshrined in law that juries don't have to justify their decisions. All they needed was a reasonable doubt that it was assault, or to believe on the balance of probabilities that it was reasonable force.
Whilst we heard all the prosecution evidence things dried up a bit when we "should" have heard the other side, so its always hard to know what was said to the jury. However there is some expert witness evidence here in support of them acting in line with their training: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce80z8zy339o this report https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/im-not-trigger-happy-tearful-officer-tells-court-after-tasering-amputee-92/ says the male officer hadn't seen the wheelchair and was fixated on the knife.
But the jury heard ALL the evidence and saw the accused in court, they heard the judge's instructions and spent 2 hrs discussing it and were UNANIMOUS. I think it is entirely possible for Jurors to think they overreacted but don't deserve to be criminalised for it. Jurors are always reluctant to convict police officers who are faced with snap decisions on courses of action.
Jurors are always reluctant to convict police officers
I remember many many years ago a copper being interviewed on the telly saying how even with overwhelming and indisputable evidence jurors were reluctant to find coppers guilty. He was explaining how frustrating it was when so much work had been put into providing evidence against a dodgy copper.
I expect things have changed in recent years but that the bar is still set pretty high for coppers.
Jurors are always reluctant to convict police officers
I remember many many years ago a copper being interviewed on the telly saying how even with overwhelming and indisputable evidence jurors were reluctant to find coppers guilty. He was explaining how frustrating it was when so much work had been put into providing evidence against a dodgy copper.
I expect things have changed in recent years but that the bar is still set pretty high for coppers.
I guess that depends on the type of "dodgy" - taking bribes or fabricating evidence, I can't see a jury being sympathetic. Overreacting (not trying to downplay this incident) in the heat of the moment, when you might need a copper to overreact at some point to protect you from someone with a knife, I can see greater leeway.
Not suggesting either is right, but I can see how it could affect a jurors view
By dodgy I mean any copper who shouldn't be a copper.
Like Constable Savage
Although I have no doubt that coppers like Constable Savage are now a far greater rarity than they were when that sketch was made. Likewise there isn't the level of police corruption that there was during the time of the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad or the Porn Squad.
Why aren't they trained to deal with that sort of confrontation? I would have thought that it is very much part of their job, certainly more so than the average copper.
Control and restraint is a specialised role requiring specialised training. A tiny moinority of nurses are trained in control and restraint Folk with the training have to be retrained every year ( IIRC) Its time consuming and expensive to train staff in C&R. I would expect policy to be to call in police if the nurses cannot talk the person down if they have a weapon
Tackling someone with a weapon to disarm them is probably outwith the training anyway
Its far more a coppers role than a nurses
Just because he is 92 and in a wheelchair does not mean he is incapable of hurting somone. I have seen a nurse get a tooth knocked out by a old man in a wheelchair.
Or even wait till he got thirsty and give him a drink with a cheeky sedative in it?
Illegal and unethical
Well exactly... I'm not professionally trained in this kind of thing at all... But I'm 100% confident I could have just grabbed his arm with one hand and put a pressure hold on his hand and simply taken the knife off him with pretty much zero fuss.
I am professionally trained including high level control and restraint and I doubt I could have done. Its absurd for you to be that confident - thats how people get hurt. Have you ever tried to restrain an adult who is fighting mad? I have. Its not easy at all even if they are old and have impaired mobility.
3 staff minimum to attempt this all of whom need specialist training
I am professionally trained including high level control and restraint and I doubt I could have done. Its absurd for you to be that confident - thats how people get hurt. Have you ever tried to restrain an adult who is fighting mad? I have. Its not easy at all even if they are old and have impaired mobility.
This.
There was an old woman across the road who my gran - no spring chicken herself - used to check in on and help out, she must have been in her 90s. She lost her marbles and started turning up on the doorstep at 3am complaining that my gran had stolen her teacup or some such nonsense. One time I thought, "right, I've had enough of this" and tried to escort this 'frail old lady' from the hallway. It was like trying to shift a pillar box, I was shocked at how strong she was.
It's easy to react emotionally with "poor 92-year old man in a wheelchair being abused by the pigs," not least of all because some people want it to be true because they're predisposed to hating the police (and sometimes with good reason), but looks can be deceptive.
Cops not guilty of assault.
Gross misconduct hearing to follow.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r1pyxy09zo
Well that ^^ link finally shows what the weapon looked like, not exactly the most fearsome looking murder weapon I have ever seen.
I guess it could have caused someone a bit of damage, had they approached the one-legged disabled 92 year old wheelchair user. But then he could probably have also hurt someone had he grabbed pretty much anything from the kitchen, such as a bottle of ketchup.
I am still struggling to believe that dialing 999 was the most appropriate course of action. It will be interesting to see what the gross misconduct hearing decides.
I do know theres a multitude of ways a situation like that can be easily handled more humanely before resorting to battons, pepper spray and tazers.
such as? I have been in very similar situations and once on my unit the staff had to call police to deal with a patient in a very similar state.
I do love all the folk on here with zero experience of these sort of situations saying there were other avenues
There is policy and proceedure to follow and a weapon is a weapon. could easily take an eye out with a blunt knife for example
I am still struggling to believe that dialing 999 was the most appropriate course of action.
Well it was. the police may have over reacted but a patient with a weapon that you cannot talk them out of waving around is a police matter not a nurses job.
I was trained to train folk in the basics of management of aggression / control and restraint and even at the intermediate level i was trained to disarming someone with a weapon was not something I was taught. Policy would be to isolate them and call the police.
Most nurses have no training in control and restraint
What do you think the care home staff should have done?
but a patient with a weapon
I am not convinced that it was a weapon. Yes I know that he was claiming that he would take great pleasure in murdering people with it but it was an easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis or Parkinson's
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315420412290
What do you think the care home staff should have done?
Well I was thinking along the lines of probably nothing and waiting until he had fallen asleep whilst making certain that he was left alone in the meantime.
What do you think that the care home staff should have done after the police had hit him with a truncheon, pepper sprayed him, tasered him, and got the dinner knife off him?
After bidding farewell to the coppers who had helpfully wrestled the knife off him what did you expect the care home staff to do with the old man?
I am not convinced that it was a weapon. Yes I know that he was claiming that he would take great pleasure in murdering people with it but it was an easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis or Parkinson's
Having now seen it I would agree, I'm not convinced either.
Well I was thinking along the lines of probably nothing and waiting until he had fallen asleep whilst making certain that he was left alone in the meantime.
New headline, "care home staff lock confused old man in room without access to food or water."
What do you think that the care home staff should have done after the police had hit him with a truncheon,
Did they hit him or try to hit the knife? That wasn't clear to me, the video cuts out before the strike.
Gross misconduct is probably a reasonable charge, along with a training "opportunity" to ensure that it's handled batter - uh, better next time.
New headline, "care home staff lock confused old man in room without access to food or water."
Who suggested doing that?
Is it standard protocol for a care home to dial 999 if they have a confused old man?
I am professionally trained including high level control and restraint and I doubt I could have done. Its absurd for you to be that confident - thats how people get hurt. Have you ever tried to restrain an adult who is fighting mad? I have. Its not easy at all even if they are old and have impaired mobility.
I'm not, I have zero training or experience in the sector, but 100% convinced I could have taken the butter knife off the 92 year old wheelchair-bound amputee without pepper spray, taser or baton. I'm equally open to the idea that I'm wrong but on the evidence as presented - not a problem.
Is it standard protocol for a care home to dial 999 if they have a confused old man?
I've no idea. What is the standard protocol for a care home when faced with a confused old man wielding a knife and saying he wants to murder people or hurt himself?
100% convinced I could have taken the butter knife off the 92 year old wheelchair-bound amputee
... only after first ascertaining that it's a "butter knife." Excuse me chief, can you not be murderous for a minute whilst I get close enough to check whether the weapon you're waving about is dangerous or not? Thanks.
Of course it's a factor, don't be silly. We're three pages in on here before we've discovered the nature of the knife, let alone started to assess it.
People keep using the word "amputee" I presume to add emotion into the equation, but the loss of a leg doesn't hinder the ability of someone to suddenly try to shove it through your eyeball if you get too close. At which point, whether it's a butter knife or whatever else it was you said may suddenly become quite relevant.
I too condemn the actions of the police, based on the evidence provided it seems heavy-handed. I'm less sure than you are though that a civilian such as yourself with (I assume) zero training could safely remove a knife from a murderous pensioner. If it were that simple, the care home staff would've already done so.
Is it standard protocol for a care home to dial 999 if they have a confused old man?
It is if he has a weapon and cannot be controlled by the care staff
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
Whereas I who has been trained in this area and has actually been in very similar situations know that is not so
I've no idea. What is the standard protocol for a care home when faced with a confused old man wielding a knife and saying he wants to murder people or hurt himself?
Call the police.
Whereas I who has been trained in this area and has actually been in very similar situations know that is not so
Get in the sea with your real world qualified experience, that has no place here ................
Call the police X 3 TJ, yeah we’ve got that, but this reminds me of my late dad’s American wife who justified the LAPD’s handling of Rodney King. It’s ****ing procedure she cried! They got away with it as well.
Get in the sea with your real world qualified experience, that has no place here ................
Oh but real world qualified experience is really interesting. Another person with 30 years experience as a care worker has suggested :
You generally have to retrain every few years. Sadly the training/ retraining people get for that has deteriorated over the last 10-12 years.
And of course just because something is the correct existing protocol it doesn't automatically make it the best protocol. Dialling 999 to deal with the consequences of an elderly disabled man with a UTI doesn't sound like the best use of scarce police resources.
Maybe care homes should have their own trained rapid deployment teams to deal with incidents of confused elderly residents, and a ready access to pepper spray and tasers?
If we are saying to leave it all to the qualified staff to deal with it then why the hell are we involving coppers?
The police clearly massively over-reacted in this case, but TJ is right, care staff - and I'm including GPs and receptionist in this case are trained to a degree in defusing these situations, but beyond a certain point, the training is to call the cops - which normally brings things to an end. Violent patients infrequently threaten staff, but it happens probably more often than folks would assume, and the consequences can be devastating.
This guy nearly killed a GP and some receptionists because he couldn't get an appointment.
Always amazes me when we have experts in a field on this forum being told they are wrong by keyboard butter knife warriors.
If we are saying to leave it all to the qualified staff to deal with it then why the hell are we involving coppers?
Because beyond a certain point the coppers are the only qualified option. Care home staff will be very unlikely to be trained in control and restraint at all and certainly not to the level of disarming a man with a weapon
We can only speculate on the level of risk to staff here but over my career ( and I never worked in secure psychiatric units) I have seen multiple nurses be injured by patients very similar to this and have been left bleeding myself
I just do not get why you think nurses should put themselves at risk in situations they have no training for
I'm predisposed to taking the opposing view to both Ernie and TJ so this thread has me spinning like a dropped cat with buttered toast strapped to its back... 🤣
Maybe care homes should have their own trained rapid deployment teams to deal with incidents of confused elderly residents, and a ready access to pepper spray and tasers?
Coming soon to UK Gold ‘Care Home SWAT’ starring Troy McClure as Tazer O’Pepperspray?
Because beyond a certain point the coppers are the only qualified option. Care home staff will be very unlikely to be trained in control and restraint at all and certainly not to the level of disarming a man with a weapon.
So you have repeatedly pointed out, I am not sure that anyone has suggested otherwise. However I am suggesting that it might not be the best use of scarce police resources and emergency call handlers.
If the police can be trained to deal with confused elderly disabled people then why on earth can't care home staff? It seems to make little sense.
And btw I wouldn't describe the very small easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis as "a weapon", I think "an object" would probably be a better description, although granted any object can be a weapon, including a sink plunger.
If the police can be trained to deal with confused elderly disabled people then why on earth can't care home staff? It seems to make little sense.
Because this is not just a confused elderly disabled person - thats within our remit and training. this is a man with a weapon ( and yes it is) threatening staff.
To train all care home and nursing staff to the level that they are able to disarm someone would be extremely onerous and expensive and for some staff not practicable. Its a fortunately very rare situation - one I have seen once ( other incidents did not involve weapons). Many staff would go their entire careers without seeing this. Police are trained to deal with violent people brandishing weapons, nurses are not
The training I did was 3 days full time and that still was not to a level where I would be trained to tackle someone with a weapon. If you operate outside your training and are hurt you have no comeback on your employer, If you hurt the person you would be liable for that.
To train all care home and nursing staff to the level that they are able to disarm someone
Who suggested all staff? I am suggesting that instead of dialling 999 perhaps phoning someone else, ie, not the police.
You do realise that the two coppers involved are facing gross misconduct charges don't you? Which suggests that even if they were not guilty of assault using pepper spray and a taser might not have been appropriate.
It's fine for you to say this is the correct protocol but it doesn't seem to have worked very well in this case does it? Don't you think that it might be worth looking at it again?
Who suggested all staff? I am suggesting that instead of dialling 999 perhaps phoning someone else, ie, not the police.
So you want some sort of rapid response unit that is on call 24/7? Whoi is going to train and supply these people? How many teams would you need?
NO I don't think its worth looking at again.
I don't know where my post has disappeared to - I can see it's been responded to!
I'm less sure than you are though that a civilian such as yourself with (I assume) zero training could safely remove a knife from a murderous pensioner. If it were that simple, the care home staff would've already done so.
That's fine, we don't have to agree on this. But I maintain, based on that short video, that I could take that knife from that man without inflicting anywhere near the damage on him that the police did. And please don't think this is a dissing of the care home staff - it's more a condemnation of the officer involved.
I am explaining from real experience that calling the police would be the correct action from the care staff.
I totally acknowledge your training and experience, I don't doubt what you're saying for a second.
Always amazes me when we have experts in a field on this forum being told they are wrong by keyboard butter knife warriors.
Please don't include me in that - I'm saying I think I could take the knife from the man, that's not a criticism or contradiction of anyone saying the correct thing to do was call the police.
Pondo - have you ever had to disarm or even restrain someone who is fighting mad? Its not easy at all. I had to do this once with a frail old lady ( not armed) I ended up bleeding, one of my colleagues got a punch in the face, she ended up with bruising and that was with 3 properly trained staff doing the restraint
NO I don't think its worth looking at again.
Why not ? Two coppers ending up in court on assault charges and then facing gross misconduct charges suggests that the system might be flawed, I am assuming that your expertise doesn't extend to policing ?
Unless you think it all went absolutely fine because the old man was successfully disarmed and that was the goal?
What I am saying is this is a rare event that police are required, even rarer that it goes wrong and that there is no one else available to deal with situations of violence beyond what the nurses can cope with
Who do you think should be called out? How are you going to organise this service? Who is going to pay for it?
You would need thousands of these control and restraint teams on standby for these very rare instances
Pondo - have you ever had to disarm or even restrain someone who is fighting mad? Its not easy at all. I had to do this once with a frail old lady ( not armed) I ended up bleeding, one of my colleagues got a punch in the face, she ended up with bruising and that was with 3 properly trained staff doing the restraint
Nope, I never have, zero training, zero experience, and all I can base it on is that horrible video. If he's mobile, different story, but based solely on that, I still think I could have taken it from him. Again, I'm not saying that the staff were wrong to call the police, I think more that pepper spray, taser and baton were hideously over the top for the scenario.
This is NOT me saying I think I could beat a gorilla in a fight! 🙂
"Which suggests that even if they were not guilty of assault using pepper spray and a taser might not have been appropriate"
The issue with use of force here was not it's use IMO but the fact it was used rapidly when there was no immediate threat.
If I can compare with firearms standoffs I was at an incident where a guy with a sawn off shotgun in a close was contained in the close for around 5 hours because he wasn't either shooting it or trying to exit the close. No immediate threat no force used.
Thereafter when he approached the armed officer covering the front door and aimed at him from 5 yards he was shot and killed
The parallel here is there was no threat. They could have waited as long as it took until he cooperated, dropped the knife, or fell asleep .
I did training for using shield to subdue violent individuals in rooms. A team of 3. Two with shields. The protocol with knives was if anyone saw one. You shouted knife and retreated out the room and shut the door.
We never trained for dealing with 92 year olds in wheelchairs but it isn't much of a threat when all you need to do to be safe is stand where you are or if he wheels slowly towards you close the door.
Okay fair enough TJ, if issues concerning confused elderly patients in care homes who become aggressive is extremely rare then sure, the occasional incident involving poorly trained coppers isn't such a big issue.
Dunno, maybe I have an unrealistic idea of how common confused elderly people with UTIs are in care homes based on my elderly mum's reoccurring UTIs whilst she was in a care home, and how despite having normally a very sharp mind it caused her to have quite spectacular hallucinations?
Okay fair enough TJ, if issues concerning confused elderly patients in care homes who become aggressive is extremely rare then sure, the occasional incident involving poorly trained coppers isn't such a big issue.
Dunno, maybe I have an unrealistic idea of how common confused elderly people with UTIs are in care homes based on my elderly mum's reoccurring UTIs whilst she was in a care home, and how despite having normally a very sharp mind it caused her to have quite spectacular hallucinations?
Confusion is common (including hallucinations and maybe aggression). Doing it whilst holding a knife (even a pretty blunt one) and threatening to murder staff does not appear to be common. For that to last over 30 minutes and the staff not to be able to talk them down appears even rarer. If this was a regular thing you would expect (1) the cops to have some specific training in it; (2) the prosecution to have brought evidence that they had this training and didn't follow it; (3) that these situations are common and easily resolved without force. The prosecution didn't do that, in fact from what has been reported the only expert witness evidence on what the cops would be expected to do seemed to support their actions.
There is a huge difference between a confused / delirious old person and someone with a weapon threatening staff. Mo9st of these incidents are well within the skills of the staff to manage - the occasional rare one isnt
Oh but real world qualified experience is really interesting. Another person with 30 years experience as a care worker has suggested :
You generally have to retrain every few years. Sadly the training/ retraining people get for that has deteriorated over the last 10-12 years.
That was me and I would just like to say that I was referring to "Crisis and Agression Limitation and Management " (CALM) which I received .The purpose of this training is to avoid any physical intervention. It did not include restraint. My employer does not allow the use of restraint,none of my employers over all my time working in social care ever have.
The original training was a full two day course with two instructors teaching a small group of roughly eight workers. It was expensive but imo worth every penny.
Social care is skint these days and there is a shortage of staff. So refresher training of all kinds is mainly done online.
I don't know much about TJ other than he's a nurse and he rides bikes, but I agree with him on this.
If I can compare with firearms standoffs I was at an incident where a guy with a sawn off shotgun in a close was contained in the close for around 5 hours because he wasn't either shooting it or trying to exit the close. No immediate threat no force used.That does seem like it would have been the best course of action in the circumstances as we now know them, I'm not sure that the officer's own evidence even contradicts that.Thereafter when he approached the armed officer covering the front door and aimed at him from 5 yards he was shot and killed
The parallel here is there was no threat. They could have waited as long as it took until he cooperated, dropped the knife, or fell asleep .
Male officer's evidence was he didn't see the wheel chair as was focussed on the knife (oddly the prosecution don't seem to have asked - "if you were so focussed on the knife was it not obvious it was not very sharp?"). Clearly we can criticise them for rushing in too quick, but to some extent is that not what we actually want from ordinary beat officers? We want people who are told there's a guy gone crazy waving a knife around threatening to kill staff who head towards it rather than stand outside waiting for someone more experienced?We never trained for dealing with 92 year olds in wheelchairs but it isn't much of a threat when all you need to do to be safe is stand where you are or if he wheels slowly towards you close the door.
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
What harm do you perceive they actually caused? They were charged with assault to ABH or GBH. Your approach may look less dramatic, and certainly makes less impressive headlines, but on a 92 yr old might still cause injury.
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
What harm do you perceive they actually caused? They were charged with assault not ABH or GBH. Your approach may look less dramatic, and certainly makes less impressive headlines, but on a 92 yr old might still cause injury.
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
What harm do you perceive they actually caused? They were charged with assault not ABH or GBH. Your approach may look less dramatic, and certainly makes less impressive headlines, but on a 92 yr old might still cause injury.
Whatever-it-was they took him to hospital for, I guess. I don't know if that's been detailed.
Male officer's evidence was he didn't see the wheel chair as was focussed on the knife (oddly the prosecution don't seem to have asked - "if you were so focussed on the knife was it not obvious it was not very sharp?").
We don't seem to be dealing with Sherlock Holmes here if his whole assessment of the situation was 'ARGGGGH, a knife, where's me taser?'
Clearly we can criticise them for rushing in too quick, but to some extent is that not what we actually want from ordinary beat officers? We want people who are told there's a guy gone crazy waving a knife around threatening to kill staff who head towards it rather than stand outside waiting for someone more experienced?
No, we want clear headed police who can assess a situation properly and use the correct response. I think that if we opt for your level of policing then the victim of a stabbing is likely to be tasered if they pull the knife out of the wound and these two geniuses are on call. Thankfully the few police I've ever had dealings with weren't like that, otherwise I may have been tasered myself. 😀
And of course just because something is the correct existing protocol it doesn't automatically make it the best protocol. Dialling 999 to deal with the consequences of an elderly disabled man with a UTI doesn't sound like the best use of scarce police resources.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Whilst I agree with you, if the care staff went off piste, didn't follow established procedure and then something went wrong then the question would be asked "why didn't you follow procedure?" Whereas if they stick to what they've been told to do - even if it might be an overreaction - then their arse is covered.
And btw I wouldn't describe the very small easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis as "a weapon"
In the UK it is illegal to carry a fixed/locking blade knife with a blade longer than three inches. It is - as defined in English law - a weapon. The fact that it's rather blunt and has a rounded tip doesn't factor into it. If he walked - sorry, rolled out of the home waving it about then he (probably wouldn't be but) could be arrested for it.
And as I said earlier, you'd have to potentially put yourself into harm's way in order to ascertain precisely what he had. It's easy to scoff when there's a big picture of it lying next to a ruler.
Whatever-it-was they took him to hospital for, I guess. I don't know if that's been detailed.
Given they weren't charged with manslaughter or even ABH the hospital trip was likely as much about getting the UTI sorted as the taser barbs removed. Would you have removed the knife, handed it to the staff and walked off?
Whatever-it-was they took him to hospital for, I guess. I don't know if that's been detailed.
Given they weren't charged with manslaughter or even ABH the hospital trip was likely as much about getting the UTI sorted as the taser barbs removed. Would you have removed the knife, handed it to the staff and walked off?
Male officer's evidence was he didn't see the wheel chair as was focussed on the knife
This is interesting. If the copper didn't realise he was in a wheelchair (plausible or lying, I have no way of knowing) then that puts a different slant on things. I watched a martial arts video once on knife defence (not generally my thing, it was a random YouTube suggestion), someone able-bodied with a knife can cover ground remarkably quickly. The advice - from a sensei - was to move away not towards.
Given they weren't charged with manslaughter or even ABH the hospital trip was likely as much about getting the UTI sorted as the taser barbs removed. Would you have removed the knife, handed it to the staff and walked off?
I don't think we'll know until it's detailed. And yes, unless the staff wanted a big lump to help restrain him.