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Are they sex objects? Or just a bit of feminisation and eye-candy in an otherwise male-dominated sport? Is there a difference? I think there is, but not everyone treats it as such.
I agree, it is outdated, and should probably be done away with. However, taking things to an extreme: I'm not sure if asexualisation of the whole of society is particularly good for it, or us, as a species.
It a false dichotomy[ and ludicrous] to suggest the options are
1. NO podiums girls and we are all asexual
2. Podium girls and we will continue to reproduce
TBH we are hard wired [ though not all of us] to reproduce so I think we can leave that one largely to nature. All species are sexual[ reproductive] or they are extinct.
What i find odd/OTT is the need to "sexualise" things that are just not sexual in nature like riding bikes or cars or food or diet coke or well the list is endless.
BIllhicks perfect advert
NSFW not even close hence not embedded
It a false dichotomy[ and ludicrous] to suggest the options are
1. NO podiums girls and we are all asexual
2. Podium girls and we will continue to reproduce
1. I didn't say that.
2. I didn't say that, either.
Always see the same posters all over sexism threads!!! Personally I see some sects of society trying to blur the line between women and men. And it's not a good thing.
JunkyardWhat i find odd/OTT is the need to "sexualise" things that are just not sexual in nature like riding bikes or cars or food or diet coke or well the list is endless.
[devilsadvocate] We play sports to compete. We compete to improve. We improve so we can display our dominance. We display our dominance so we can impress a mate and pass on our genes [/devilsadvocate]
[b]glasgowdan[/b]. Really?!
It is possible to love the differences between men and women, and see that having podium girls is lame, lazy, and very last century. Of course if you find the idea that women might be different but equal, slightly threatening, you might well think podium girls [i]are[/i] a good thing...
Of course if you find the idea that women might be different but equal, slightly threatening, you might well think podium girls are a good thing...
Threatening?
[b]jamie[/b] he's setting up a strawman equating dislike of the casual sexism of having podium girls with a perceived blurring of the line between men and women. Which isn't happening, but he thinks is, and it is a bad thing. What actually is happening is a slow move towards equality, and perhaps that is what he doesn't like?
But if I have to explain that, I've failed.
Stoatsbrother....a perceived blurring of the line between men and women. Which isn't happening, but he thinks is, and it is a bad thing. What actually is happening is a slow move towards equality, and perhaps that is what he doesn't like?
Feel free to go down the rabbit hole of Fourth Wave Feminism and the movement to "smash the patriarchy" along with the wider culture of "justice" movements emerging in recent years.
Scroll back a few pages and read Peyote's comments on this thread where he alludes to "white privilige" or "white male privilige" and notice how he repeatedly asserts that we are all racists. Yes, all racists. And the repeated allegations go pretty much unchallenged. Presumably we're all misogynists too but it's not even necessary to state that since "racist" is now a banner term you apply to anyone you disagree with on social or political issues. It's all part one giant smorgasboard of extreme leftist identity politics. You can say that glasgowdan was creating a strawman, or that he was using hyperbole, or was he actually aware of wider social changes that are generally taking place online and with the youth of today?
The elephant in the room in this context is the extreme misogyny, abuse and degredation suffered by women in places like Saudi Arabia and ****stan. Or the [url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/england-fgm-cases-recorded-2015-2016 ]6000 girls in the UK who were subject to female genital mutilation[/url] last year. That's okay because at the extreme left end of the spectrum of identity politics you have to infantalise anyone with a darker skin tone and you have to acquiesce to the idiosyncrasies of every culture other than that of the white, privileged, western, capitalist, patriarchy.
The fact that FGM and other bad shit happens and is horrendously awful does not mean that we have to forget about lesser issues close to home. In this case the culture is changing, it is the TdF that is lagging behind.
GD sees opposition to this casual sexism as a desire to see the sexes as the same. It isn't that.
*non-binary interpretations also exist, but let's just not go there... it doesn't mean we are all becoming the same, just all equal,
Stoatsbrother - MemberThe fact that FGM and other bad shit happens and is horrendously awful does not mean that we have to forget about lesser issues close to home.
Genuine question, which is closer to home - women and girls in the uk suffering female genital mutilation, or professional podium girls in France presenting trophies? One was a major story in CH4 news a few days ago and, as above, a story on the Guardian's website so not exactly under the radar in STW terms but not a peep here. Podium girls however....12 pages and counting.
you have put this in quotations as if it is not demonstratable fact. Why ?Peyote's comments on this thread where he alludes to "white privilige" or "white male privilige"
I have not read the post to which you allude or not read it like that. was he not arguing that society was thus rather than all individuals within. Again its hard to deny sexism and racism dont actually exist in society. Assuming you do accept this you re left accepting that white male is the best group to be in. I am happy to see your negation of this if you have one to offer.and notice how he repeatedly asserts that we are all racists. Yes, all racists.
I doubt it but do you think it exists ? Are podium girls part of this or not part of this ?You know lest stay on topic.Presumably we're all misogynists
I am fairly confident no one has been called a racist for their views on podium girls so the "extreme leftist identity politics " is just a demonstration of your need to vent - could you not just have said PC gone mad its briefer ?"racist" is now a banner term you apply to anyone you disagree with on social or political issues. It's all part one giant smorgasboard of extreme leftist identity politics
Good question. [b]jimjam[/b]
Thing is, I think pretty well everyone on STW would agree FGM is bad. And I get training every 2-3 years in what to do if I encounter it, or someone at risk of it. It's a real thing. Not exactly going to be a debate about that though.
Whereas there are lots on STW who seem to think that podium girls are harmless fun, and lots who don't. Therefore arguments...
If things had changed so that the length of arguments had to be proportionate to the seriousness of the issue, I must have missed that memo.
.
Women are being employed for being pretty alongside their other qualities, therefore it's the same as genital mutilation?
I don't think I can take part in this discussion any further.
Err... who said it was?
Stoatsbrother - MemberGood question. jimjam
Thing is, I think pretty well everyone on STW would agree FGM is bad. And I get training every 2-3 years in what to do if I encounter it, or someone at risk of it. It's a real thing. Not exactly going to be a debate about that though.
Whereas there are lots on STW who seem to think that podium girls are harmless fun, and lots who don't. Therefore arguments...
If things had changed so that the length of arguments had to be proportionate to the seriousness of the issue, I must have missed that memo.
Well sorry for mentioning it a third time for anyone who is reading the thread but I'll say it again anyway, what bothers me about eliminating (via any method) podium girls is that it is easy. Political/media pressure - job done. But it doesn't fix anything.
Many posters commenting here how they feel that these girls make the TDF appear old fashioned or cringe worthy, I don't. Now obviously this is my white male privilege at work and my unconscious bias coming to the fore as I'm part of the patriarchy, but I'm sorry, I just don't. I just see part of the TDF.
Strangely though, as a member of this racist and mysoginyst group I do find things like Keeping Up With The Kardashians, Real Houswives etc and many pop groups highly objectionable because of the aspirational images they convey to the young women who they have captive in their audience.
But this is a much more difficult thing to parse. Similarly, the FGM issue is an extremely thorny issue and by its nature difficult to discuss with clarity. So, sorry if I am guilty of whataboutery top trumps or hyperbolic straw men but really it's all on a spectrum and it's certainly worthy of note that the low hanging fruit of podium girls is threadworthy but fgm is conspicuous by its absence.
People are talking about podium girls at a cycling event rather than female genital mutilation, for the same reason they're talking about podium girls at a cycling event rather than at the tractor pulling. It's the cycling connection that brought it up
Junkyard - lazarus
Peyote's comments on this thread where he alludes to "white privilige" or "white male privilige"you have put this in quotations as if it is not demonstratable fact. Why ?
Because the concept of "white privilege" or the idea that you can ascribe certain traits, behaviours, or indeed blame for the actions of previous generations is an inherently racist and frankly stupid idea. It's not a demonstrable fact - it's complete stupidity.
I have not read the post to which you allude or not read it like that. was he not arguing that society was thus rather than all individuals within.
No, but whilst I'm sure Peyote will (if he chooses) reverse and say he meant society the one of the main concepts of White Privilege is that you, the individual are, whether you know it or not, and actual racist. And unless you undergo racial bias awareness re training in order to make you aware of your own underlying subconscious racism, then you're probably a racist. Generally.
Sorry I appear to have inadvertently won the whatabouterry top trumps of 2017. I'll leave it at that, await my three week ban and enjoy the comments in the morning.
*Edit: In my defence I had (ad nauseum) commented that the real "femenist" issues of morally barren female tv celebrities damaging our children worries me much more than TDF podium girls, so this is something of a continuation on that theme. But still.
Women are being employed for being pretty alongside their other qualities, therefore it's the same as genital mutilation?
Not long ago it was the same as trafficking prostitutes from Eastern Europe so things are going from bad to worse.
Because the concept of "white privilege" or the idea that you can ascribe certain traits, behaviours, or indeed blame for the actions of previous generations is an inherently racist and frankly stupid idea. It's not a demonstrable fact - it's complete stupidity.
You live in a society that is predominantly run by white men, it's not a surprise if a white man gets his own way (imagine how much news a black female Dr who would be) it is easier for a white male is western society, there are fewer barriers and subconsciously people accept you in a position much faster and easier than if you were not.
is this like when folk say a good beating never did me any harm? Ie we get used to things?I just see part of the TDF.
Yes the reasons you are ok with it lie , at least partly, in the fact you are conditioned to find it acceptable. It does not mean you are a great oppressor of women just that you , like us all, live in a sexist climate where we get attuned to the sexism so it is normalised and some of we dont object to s it doe snot even register as sexism to some.
I notice you did not try to rational deconstruct my point you just ranted on [ all bet it rather well and rather funny- genuine compliment] instead of negating the points
IS the world racist?
Is the world sexist?
if the answer to both of those is yes then it is a "privileged to be a white male"
Feel free to attack the premises.
We can then discuss whether growing up in a society conditions you to its norms 😉
the other point about white proveledge is you never notice it
As a white male council estate kid I never feel the joy of this freedom.
Now do it this way
Can you recall an incident of racism?
Can you recall an incident of sexism?
Ask your non white non male friends and compare the answer
It does not mean all white males are racist sexists.
It does mean our society is and we need to ask whether certain things help or hinder this.
I've not seen many air hostesses who aren't immaculately turned out, with their hair and make-up polished to the n'th degree. Is this vastly different? (That's a question not a statement, I don't know as I have the answer.)
I would say, not vastly, no; the purpose of cabin crew is to help passengers feel at ease, give them help when/if necessary, be professional and well turned out and to be polite to every passenger regardless of how they behave, which probably wouldn't be far off how PG's have to operate.
I know a girl who was [s]an air hostess[/s] cabin crew for a while, she's vivacious, has tremendous poise, is bright and intelligent, and I can see exactly why she would be good at that job; I could also see her doing a stint as a PG, there are probably far fewer incidents of drunk, obnoxious or demanding arseholes* she'd have to deal with on a TdF podium so she'd possibly find it a lot of fun to do.
*Difficult to say with certainty, she flew with Etiad and Emirates, so their level of tolerance of bad behaviour may be lower than other carriers, their standards of dress among staff may well be higher, for religious/sociological reasons, their female staff are not there to be sexy.
No, but whilst I'm sure Peyote will (if he chooses) reverse and say he meant society the one of the main concepts of White Privilege is that you, the individual are, whether you know it or not, and actual racist. And unless you undergo racial bias awareness re training in order to make you aware of your own underlying subconscious racism, then you're probably a racist. Generally.
Having worked in London, for a few companies that were dominated by non-whites and being married to someone who is non-white. White privilege is definitely a thing, under certain circumstances and in certain companies. It's also about class though, a guy got ahead in a company that I know of as he had European royalty connections ....meaning he could bring in wealthy clients. However, my previous company, was an Indian one - dominated 95 percent by Indians. No Muslim, Tamil or Far East Asian got any further than the lowest ranks and during my time there I heard plenty of abuse directed at Tamils and Muslims. I'd continually have to put up with comments like "Oh but your white, for you it's easy" - so I'm fairly cynical about it all - my wifes Asian friends are all rich as **** private schoolers/international school types - who've had it way better than a lot of my white friends.
When I hear one of her "Daddy paid for my gap year, degree, masters, living expense and internship in New York" friends complaining about it or coming out with for example... the line "[i]We all know that historically Europeans are the oppressors of the rest of the world - but like did you know...sometimes Asians can be a but prejudiced towards black people. Seriously guys.[/i]" and ignoring/never giving any thought to how her own countrymen have ****ed over I don't know.... the indigenous Aeta people of the Philippines....I have a small aneurysm from the stupidity and pointlessness of it all.
So whilst I agree that it exists and that social mobility in ethnic minorities should be addressed, don't think for a second that if the situation were reversed - people would give a **** about you. People are self-serving, selfish cockwombles who only usually care about equality if affects them immediately - they rarely care unless forced to.
I do wonder how London being the main economic area of the United Kingdom - and the decreasing number of white people owning property there is going to do to the concept of white privilege as well.
It's just brand association and advertising really isn't it.
Sex and sexiness sells- even to women.
I'd be pretty gutted if my company had invested millions of pounds getting a top athlete into the most prestigious jersey in the sport and my brand was beamed across the world lined up next to a fat, snotty, yellow toothed tramp with ketchup down his shirt 😆
As usual, Family Guy has the answer:
😀
No, but whilst I'm sure Peyote will (if he chooses) reverse and say he meant society the one of the main concepts of White Privilege is that you, the individual are, whether you know it or not, and actual racist. And unless you undergo racial bias awareness re training in order to make you aware of your own underlying subconscious racism, then you're probably a racist. Generally.
Nope, I stand by what I wrote. I think it's the human condition to favour those like themselves. I also think it's wrong. So while I recognise that my default assumption is prejudiced I try to take that into account the way I live my life. Both society and individuals are racist, sexist, etc.
I don't think racial bias awareness training is necessary (it focuses purely on one prejudice for a start), I just think people need to empathise a bit more with others who have different experiences than their own (so that covers all -isms). It's not easy, and I'm not claiming to be whiter than white, but I recognise I've been dealt a good hand and many others haven't.
People are self-serving, selfish cockwombles who only usually care about equality if affects them immediately - they rarely care unless forced to.
A harsh way of viewing the world!
13 pages?!?!??
I won't be reading all that crap.
[I]loddrik - Member
It's bad enough at motor shows, but the type of people who are 'into cars' probably have that type of mentality.[/I]
Although I hope someone spotted the irony of the OP.
Also, 😆 at STW forum script for replacing the "[I]I'm not reading all that shit[/I]" acronym.
With an insult.
Classy 😆
Most of the 13 pages are the same 4-5 people though. Skip their posts as I have and you get a decent read!
A harsh way of viewing the world!
But very true. A lot of the correct behaviour is only performed because folk want to be seen to be doing/saying/writing the right thing.
[i][It's] the greatest treason, to do the right deed for the wrong reason[/i]
At the end of the day they are just people doing a job they have chosen to do and which they have the skills or attributes to do well.
They can all stink out the bathroom in the morning like the rest of us
They probably use VIPoo. I would imagine...
They probably use VIPoo.
Doughnut shaped shits?
But very true.
Perhaps, I'm in no position to judge.
A lot of the correct behaviour is only performed because folk want to be seen to be doing/saying/writing the right thing.
How do you tell the difference between someone motivated by their conscience and someone wanting to look like they've been motivated by their conscience?
Actually, scratch that. That kind of conversation should be had at 2am after 10+ single malts!
I'm in no position to judge.
Of course you are - you're posting on STW.
Of course you are - you're posting on STW.
Yeah, but I shouldn't be.
It's weird how some aspects of sexism just seemed to have passed people by completely. Not even a comprehension of it. Sign o the times I suppose.
Yeah, but I shouldn't be.
In a position to judge or on stw?
It's weird how some aspects of sexism just seemed to have passed people by completely. Not even a comprehension of it.
Agree. I don't even understand why this topic should need to be debated in 2017.
[i]I don't even understand why this topic should need to be debated in 2017.[/i]
It does though - because of the times- because the internet has changed views so much since the 80s!
I've just texted my girlfriend on the subject and she has no problem with podium girls/paddock girls etc. Member of the labour party, incidentally, has 2 daughters. Views are not what I expected. It's interesting (hence 13 pages!)
In a position to judge or on stw?
Both, but mostly the latter!
I've just texted my girlfriend on the subject and she has no problem with podium girls/paddock girls etc. Member of the labour party, incidentally, has 2 daughters. Views are not what I expected.
It's interesting, my wife is the same. Yet, my views come from other women who I've spoken to who appear to have different (or should that be more radical) views. Listening to the female perspective is something that should be a given.
Bizarrely, (or maybe even ironically) I only really started hearing about the feminist side of things after helping out with the Tour Series in Woking in 2009/2010, back then the podium girls caused a bit of debate too. I was pretty ambivalent about it then.
Asked my wife (and mother of my daughter) - she said she sees nothing wrong with podium girls, Grid girls etc, but DOES have a problem with the reality TV types being role models to modern girls, who are (her words) "empty headed shallow tramps who thrive on creating drama and have no control"!!
If I were to ask my MRs she would roll her eyes and ask what those ****s on the forum were saying now
imagine how much news a black female Dr who would be
??? I'd better ask my GP then ....
Weirdly you just made me think of her in those terms... previously she was just my GP... now she's a black-female GP...
yet plenty of females don't share that perspective... are they to be forced or does their opinion not count?It's interesting, my wife is the same. Yet, my views come from other women who I've spoken to who appear to have different (or should that be more radical) views. Listening to the female perspective is something that should be a given.
I only really started hearing about the feminist side of things after helping out with the Tour Series in Woking in 2009/2010
Weirdly I just thought that British Cycling's female perspective is way way deeper ingrained due to an event in Woking...
No-one told a diminutive under 8 she was competing in the girls so she trashed all the boys from the 3 local clubs... (and I mean trashed some of them are 1-2 yrs older and much much bigger and her TT was way faster)
I have heard similar before at other races and not really thought about it... such and such won the girls and incidentally also had the fastest time of everyone... in this case though it wasn't even pointed out she had beaten all the male club riders or more accurately had the fastest time of all club riders*.
What [b]message [/b]is that giving young girls?
*Sorta Disclaimer it was an open event in our town and Jnr didn't have any other races that day so turned up anyway just for fun but since we are not part of a GoRide club he's not counted as "club rider"