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I wasn't aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?
I guess this is the bit where a middle class white bloke finds it hard to see the differences, like being judged on looks, having to be more qualified for a job among other things.
jambalaya - Member
It's France, they have a different attitude
Speaking for the entire of France again?
Bustaspoke - Member
They're currently discussing podium girls on ITV4's TDF coverage.
Ooh, we should discuss that sometime! 😀
something like this
So hair covered, baggy fleece and jeans.
Meanwhile the blokes can be bare headed and wear t-shirts.
Are you actually in the Taliban?
and what would I like?
something like this
The big difference being is that the EWS, while enjoying sponsorship revenues and is a commercial entity, isn't anything like the scale of the TdF. For ASO to sell high ticket price sponsorship to global brands (that pay for the event and the required profit levels to deliver to investors & shareholders), they need the large scale "show/spectacle" elements like the presentations etc as that's the stuff commercial sponsors like.
It's no good saying "ASO shouldn't have it" unless there's a viable source of replacement funding to replace the media exposure that sponsors pay for - and sponsors like things like awards, prizegivings etc.
it was about 3c, point being organisers handed the prizes to the winners on the podium, the podium was about the winners, nobody else needed to be up there to help them feel special or make it more of a spectacle
It's no good saying "ASO shouldn't have it" unless there's a viable source of replacement funding to replace the media exposure that sponsors pay for - and sponsors like things like awards, prizegivings etc.
then we get back to are the sponsors actually asking for that? Catch 22?
Given how little the coverage I see actually has the podiums on it's nowhere near as much as the racing or the massive banners elsewhere. Other people manage really well with out it.
I thought he explained it quite well OOB:
Grown up, people celebrating and no need for some extra totty
No need to bait with Taliban etc. comments surely?
No need to bait with Taliban etc. comments surely?
I think there's a direct link. He's posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face. (...and I suspect those pictures are taken somewhere colder than France in mid-summer.)
Meanwhile the blokes are in t-shirts.
Double standards?
I can't wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.
I see where you're going here, and I certainly think there's an element of society that are striving towards exactly that, but they can probably be filed as vocal minority at the more extreme end of the viewpoint. Every demographic has them.
Thing is, I don't see any harm in acknowledging that men and women usually have their differences, embracing it even, so long as it's with the caveat that we also acknowledge that were equals. Many folk don't, and that's the problem.
Similarly, I don't see the harm in someone using their attractiveness as an asset any more than someone using their brain. Rather, the problem comes when people start to see women as a life support system for a pair of breasticles. If someone is beautiful but thick as mince, is it fair for us to be judging them on that, or shutting down their career choices?
So I suppose the question is, are the podium girls sending a positive or a negative message? Are the spectators seeing them as positive role models who add a bit of glamour to the occasion, or as gratuitous T&A to be perved over?
I think there's a direct link. He's posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face
Seriously, you are trying hard there.
The pic was showing people who had finished racing receiving the prizes with no need for models to wave them around or kiss them. That is what I am thinking in case you're struggling there.
I think there's a direct link. He's posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face. (...and I suspect those pictures are taken somewhere colder than France in mid-summer.)Meanwhile the blokes are in t-shirts.
Really? You don't think you're jumping to conclusions and making some pretty dodgy assumptions there?
I see people dressed in normal clothes celebrating.
edited to add - bin dun
Similarly, I don't see the harm in someone using their attractiveness as an asset any more than someone using their brain. Rather, the problem comes when people start to see women as a life support system for a pair of breasticles. If someone is beautiful but thick as mince, is it fair for us to be judging them on that, or shutting down their career choices?
You make a very good point here Cougar, the attitude towards someone based on their attractiveness, and the judgement of how intelligent/worthy etc they are reflects more on the judger than the judgee. Perfect case in point, I'm long term mates with someone who was a grid girl/PR girl for an energy drink. She funded her degree by doing it and is now their European marketing manager.
If someone is so blind as to say she a: shouldn't have had the PR/grid girl role as the job shouldn't exist b: it's a job for fit but thick people, I'd argue that reflects worse on them than someone who makes a slightly leery comment, as it suggests they think they're somehow intellectually or socially superior based on a first glance judgement.
The pic was showing people who had finished racing receiving the prizes with no need for models to wave them around or kiss them.
Ok, so what *do* you you want? Are you saying you want the podium to be exclusively for competitors plus one single prize giver? Can that prize giver be attractive? Female?
Are you saying that you'd be happy with attractive scantily clad women on the stage as long as they have a formal role in the proceedings that you approve of - like handing out bottles of bubbly?
I see people dressed in normal clothes celebrating.
Triffic. So what would you regard as abnormal clothes and what action do you want to prevent the wearing of abnormal clothes at events?
They're currently discussing podium girls on ITV4's TDF coverage.
Not much racing happening then?
Actually I think the TdF podium girls look very nice. Well dressed, not tarty. Now the Giro...
it's a job for fit but thick people
...and, of course, thick people need jobs too. Once you start banning jobs because they're beneath people who draws the line? Is toilet cleaning unacceptable?
Ok, so what *do* you you want? Are you saying you want the podium to be exclusively for competitors plus one single prize giver? Can that prize giver be attractive? Female?
For people to hand out prizes, for the podium to be about the racers and for the people to be there for something more than looking a bit nice...
The most refreshing bit that day was seeing men and women up there together with both events given equal status.
I'd like to see the role of women in the tour respected for what they do like being a doctor, or working for a team and that sort of thing. For the women in the tour to be role models and not to promote a single idea of a body image that is male derived. For the money spent on totty to be invested into women's racing and promotion of women's sport.
Now do I need to illustrate with pictures?
Evolutionary psychology? I'm not sure how accepted that is in scientific circles these days.
Evoltionary Psychology is a difficult subject. There is some serious accepted research in the area and i think it has a lot more to contribute. Unfortunately a lot of it is buried under people trotting out rubbish to support whatever stereotypes they have fixated out.
With regards to the claims about women vs mens roles from my understanding the research currently indicates its a load of bobbins. The studies of those tribes which are closest to prehistorical conditions dont have the simplistic breakdown that is claimed.
Cougar
I can't wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.I see where you're going here, and I certainly think there's an element of society that are striving towards exactly that, but they can probably be filed as vocal minority at the more extreme end of the viewpoint. Every demographic has them.
Thing is, I don't see any harm in acknowledging that men and women usually have their differences, embracing it even, so long as it's with the caveat that we also acknowledge that were equals. Many folk don't, and that's the problem.
Similarly, I don't see the harm in someone using their attractiveness as an asset any more than someone using their brain. Rather, the problem comes when people start to see women as a life support system for a pair of breasticles. If someone is beautiful but thick as mince, is it fair for us to be judging them on that, or shutting down their career choices?
[b]So I suppose the question is, are the podium girls sending a positive or a negative message? Are the spectators seeing them as positive role models who add a bit of glamour to the occasion, or as gratuitous T&A to be perved over?[/b]
Pretty much a solid and very valid post Cougar. For the last part, I don't think it has to be an either or scenario but a grey area somehwere in between. But what I see as more important and which alluded to earlier is that this a very small and relatively innocuous aspect of this "horrible oppressive patriarchal system of female oppression".
If you watch Keeping up with the Kardashians I challenge you to not be shocked and depressed at just how horrible, self obsessed, vacuous and generally unpleasant a bunch of millionaire women can be. Then consider the reach and the influence they have over young women. It's infinitely more widespread and invasive across all media and more damaging than TDF podium girls could be.
I realsie there might be something of a failure in my logic here, certainly on the surface - ie that podium girls are just one tiny part of a society that champions the Kardashians but I don't believe that is the case. I would not be embarrassed if my daughter decided she wanted to earn some money on a TDF podium but I would be horrified if she acted in the stupid, self centered and completely cosmetic superficial level the Kardashians do.
We've had podium girls and page 3 girls long before there was anything like the Kardashians or Little Minx or whatever. One didn't create the other nor is one a symptom or indicator of the prevalence of the other.
I think trying to eradicate podium girls in the name of equality when it doesn't seem to "offend" anyone is as misguided as trying to force gender eqaulity on societies which are essentially equal when there are many in which women are actually oppressed.
For people to hand out prizes, for the podium to be about the racers and for the people to be there for something more than looking a bit nice...
Something more? Like what? Would you allow women to hand out additional prizes, like bubbly? What if they were attractive local tri-athletes would that be enough to warrant them being on stage?
For the money spent on totty to be invested into women's racing and promotion of women's sport.
I suspect there wouldn't be any money saved because without easyontheeye women to get the photos in the media they'd have to think up another gimmick which wuold be more expensive than paying a few students to stand about.
Now do I need to illustrate with pictures?
Words would help. You're just writing out a vauge wordy wishlist of wollyness. From what you've written there would be nothing to stop the organizers hiring two sexy team doctors/nurses, putting them in skimpy outfits and having them on stage getting recognition in photos with the Winners for being great medics. Except the real reason they'd be there would be to get the pitcures in the media.
Except the real reason they'd be there would be to get the pitcures in the media.
Well honestly we might as well ditch the cycling and just get Spearmint Rhino to organise the podiums then.
Perhaps you find it hard to imagine that people would be interested without the girls up there but it seems to work in most other sports.
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Evoltionary Psychology is a difficult subject. There is some serious accepted research in the area and i think it has a lot more to contribute. Unfortunately a lot of it is buried under people trotting out rubbish to support whatever stereotypes they have fixated out.
My experience of this is the exact opposite. Myself and my peers are all desperate for our kids to break out of what we regard as gender stereotypes and are frustrated that they won't. Far from wanting these roles to be fixed by nature we want them to be fixed by nurture. I've spent years trying to train my daughter to be interested in aviation and motorsport with no luck. Meanwhile my son got openly excited by cars and aircraft before he could walk. Conversely my wife wants to make cakes with both kids - guess which one's not interested.
With regards to the claims about women vs mens roles from my understanding the research currently indicates its a load of bobbins.
...and yet there's a news story today about women who can't find husbands willing to commit to marriage so they're freezing eggs in th ehope they will find a future husband. Pretty strong evidence that women are far keener to settle down and have kids than blokes.
...and yet there's a news story today about women who can't find husbands willing to commit to marriage so they're freezing eggs in th ehope they will find a future husband. Pretty strong evidence that women are far keener to settle down and have kids than blokes.
Or that men can reproduce safely later in life and women can't so are using technology to help even the score.
Can that prize giver be attractive? Female?
Of course they can but they shouldn't be employed in the job on those two criteria alone.
Well honestly we might as well ditch the cycling and just get Spearmint Rhino to organise the podiums then.
Would you ban Spearmint Rhino?
Perhaps you find it hard to imagine that people would be interested without the girls up there but it seems to work in most other sports.
You do realize I don't organize prize giving events, don't you? I'm just trying to work out exactly what rules you want in place of the current ones. If you simply just clearly stated the rules you want we could have a debate.
Of course they can but they shouldn't be employed in the job on those two criteria alone.
Great, so they could be very keen amateur cyclists who happened to be attractive & Female? That shouldn't be too hard to arrange and then everyone would be happy.
I think outofbreath has lost it, I really do. Have absolutely no idea what his view on the subject is, except to bait and argue the toss with what everyone else says.
honestly, time to give in and watch the conclusion to what could be a very exciting stage, who knows there might be a little bit of bikini action on a warm day to liven up the dull dull racing 🙁
I think outofbreath has lost it, I really do. Have absolutely no idea what his view on the subject is, except to bait and argue the toss with what everyone else says.
Yeh I'm bemused by that last post, no idea what point he's trying to make?
Have absolutely no idea what his view on the subject
no idea what point he's trying to make?
I don't really have a dog in this fight. When someone tells me what rules they want to replace the existing rules I'll have a think but it's very hard to get traction on what form a ban would take and who would be banned and on what grounds.
It is a sad relic of another era from an organisation which has failed to keep with the times.
And young women growing up have enough on their plate with hypocritical media standards and norms of "beauty", with perceptions of what women's roles are, without these girls being on the podium for no other reason than to titilate or to draw attention to sponsors products solely on the grounds of their appearance.
Just sad.
it's very hard to get traction on what form a ban would take and who would be banned and on what grounds.
Doesn't need to be banned, just needs to stop, it's not relevant, its 'old fashioned' and its completely unnecessary.
In some countries they even have pensioners exploiting themselves in this shameful manner.
Doesn't need to be banned, just needs to stop,
Sigh. Ok, so lets replace the word ban with the word stop.
Who are you going to stop from doing what?
Stop them on the basis of what they wear? On the basis of how involved in the sport they are? Or the validity of their role on the Podium. Would you apply it to women only, or men too?
Yes
Things like this shouldn't need a ban.
They should just stop happening. You wouldn't need to design a ban to stop Rolf Harris or Jonathan King from being invited to be on the podium. And sooner or later they will stop. Because they are lame and actually alienate many of us - even blokes.
In some countries they even have pensioners exploiting themselves in this shameful manner.
I think that says it all. If you came back with 'Ahh, she's interested in horse racing' then why shoudn't the Podium Girls just claim to like cycling. It's a very hard thing to ban. (Sorry, I mean stop).
Nope, still not a clue.
Things like this shouldn't need a ban. They should just stop happening.
ITYF that 'ban' is a word that means "stopping something happening"?
No banning something and something stopping happening because its no longer needed are not the same.
Looking up the yellow pages to find a plumber wasn't banned, it just became an outdated way of doing something so for most it's stopped happening. (although why they keep publishing the yellow pages is beyond me).
I think you're confusing 'something stopping happening' and 'stopping something happening'.
[s]No it isn't. Ban is to block something, like a higher authority puts in a rule saying it will not be allowed. For it to stop, like the Ozzies did, is to just not employ the totty anymore.[/s]
Yeah, what Gary_M said.
So if it just stops because they don't do it any more, are you happy with that?
Are you for or against podium girls being used for sexist reasons, or are you just against the wording used in the Singletrackworld Chat Forum?
No banning something and something stopping happening because its no longer needed are not the same.
If it's not needed it will deffo stop and there's no need to stop it. Problem solved.
Looking up the yellow pages to find a plumber wasn't banned, it just became an outdated way of doing something so for most it's stopped happening.
Well that's fine then. I'm all for people voluntarily stopping doing things they regard as needless. What are you disgreeing about?
So if it just stops because they don't do it any more, are you happy with that?
Yup.
Are you for or against podium girls being used for sexist reasons, or are you just against the wording used in the Singletrackworld Chat Forum?
I'm against telling women what they should or shouldn't do and what they should or shouldn't wear based on critera that are totally in your head and that you aren't even prepared to state. You might have a point but unless you're prepared to say who you would allow on podiums and why it's very hard to know.
I think the Queen picture says it all. My guess is that you would allow her because a) You think she's a minger and b) She was born royal. If she was 23 and (in your eyes) born stunning rather than being born royal you'd be banning her from the podium. Which seems mental to me.
You obviously missed my (one sensible) post on this thread. Totally wrong battle mate.
mikewsmith's mum earlier ...
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Hope that just a shit joke Dr J.
they shouldn't be employed in the job on those two criteria alone
What criteria should they be employed under, out of interest?
Lol - some pretty idiotic arguments here.
The Queen is on the podium beacause of who she is. Same as if Laura Trott or Victoria Pendleton were presenting a trophy. They are already famous or high acheveirs in the sport and their looks are irrelevent.
Podium girls are on the podium as eye candy pure and simple and it is starting to look very dated. No they didn't get forced to do it and I'm sure they are loving their moment but its the 13 year old self harming in the school toilets because she can't conform to a ridiculous media fetish ideal or the women trafficked from eastern europe, raped and then dumped in a back alley who ultimately lose from all this.
the women trafficked from eastern europe, raped and then dumped in a back alley who ultimately lose from all this
You're right - the sooner we eradicate sexual thoughts, the happier everyone will be.
In the meantime, I'm going to insist that my daughter doesn't go out of the house looking attractive. We don't want that human trafficking on our consciences.
[b]Winston [/b]- exactly. +1
You're right - the sooner we eradicate sexual thoughts, the happier everyone will be.
Nope your just being objectionable then. Guessing you failed to read my points earlier and just went for cheap shots. Well done have an Internet point.
What criteria should they be employed under, out of interest?
A valid reason for being there, local sports people, town council folk, anything non-fluff related, you know that anyway.
I think it's insulting to everyone frankly - like we all need some decoration for our eyes to light up what is really an exceptionally boring ceremony only for the sponsors to get their logos on't tele. Oh, hang on...
They could have jugglers or something. Wild animals - who doesn't like a panda bear ?
They could have jugglers or something. Wild animals - who doesn't like a panda bear ?
Most Pandas can't juggle.They also complain incessantly.
It'd be pandemonium.
They could have jugglers or something. Wild animals - who doesn't like a panda bear ?
Only if the jugglers are town council folk, apparently.
Are the spectators seeing them as positive role models who add a bit of glamour to the occasion, or as gratuitous T&A to be perved over?
Agree entirely with this.I see it as the former, and as such not an issue.
I'm guessing some posters see it is as the latter
Are the spectators seeing them as positive role models who add a bit of glamour to the occasion, or as gratuitous T&A to be perved over?
I'm guessing some posters see it is as the latter
And isn't that a sad indictment of the "anti podium girl" people? It suggests they can't see beyond the girls' looks, making judgements on their value/intellect/worth on the very criteria they are moaning about.
worst troll ever
What do you think podium girls attributes for the job are if not their looks?
Do you think they only recruit form mensa and local charities and its all about what is inside ?
Dumb and sexist what winning combination 🙄
worst troll ever
What do you think podium girls attributes for the job are if not their looks?Do you think they only recruit form mensa and local charities and its all about what is inside ?
Dumb and sexist what winning combination
Far from trolling. From experience knowing a: the (female) owner of a highly successful PR girl agency (herself an ex PR girl) and b: the previously mentioned grid girl mate of mine who is now EU marketing manager for the brand she was a grid girl for, it's not just looks - they need to be able to carry themselves well in terms of social interaction, engage with the client at events around the presentation (the podium/visible to the public bit tends to be just part of the job), report back to the brand/employer on interaction numbers/metrics like samples given out, and any number of other things too.
Making an unqualified judgement of "she's just a podium girl" is as demeaning to them as saying airline cabin crew are just waitresses in the sky.
Like I say, speaking from actually knowing people in this line of work and seeing how good they are at all the elements of the job, not "just looking pretty for titillation" as some would like to think.
Nice bit of sexism justifying fifth-form level logic, TPB and ARM... try harder...
Lovely to see how "pro podium girl" people skip the key issues, which have been stated here. None of this is about empowerment, and it is an embarassment that it continues.
Yes, in a fundementally patriarchal system they can [i]choose [/i]to do this negative irrelevant demeaning job. That doesn't mean the job should exist. This isn't about portecting [i]them[/i], it is about moving towards a better society which values women more, and gives young girls good examples of what they can achieve.
And, [b]Andyrm[/b], so why aren't there podium boys as well? Or do a load of perhaps predominantly male sponsors prefer age-inappropariate girls to "interact" with? 😡
that will be why we see such a cross section of sizes, shapes and ages then its because they value people skill so much 🙄it's not just looks
Clearly they only use attractive ones so you can try and deny this as much as you want and ludicrously suggest its only the detractors who use this criteria but its not even close to a credible description of reality and its self evidently untrue.
[i]it's not just looks - they need to be able to carry themselves well in terms of social interaction, engage with the client at events around the presentation (the podium/visible to the public bit tends to be just part of the job), report back to the brand/employer on interaction numbers/metrics like samples given out, and any number of other things too.
[/i]
If this is true, I'd like to see a job description! 😆
Crikey ... some of the replies ...
Mr Woppit - Member
chewkw - Member
If all the podiums/grid girls are banned, what are they going to do?
Help you with your mealtimes and potty training.
Poor standard of response. In fact very week. I can better that many times. 🙄
You have not thought this through have you?
What alternative employments do you intend to create for them if this is the extra income they enjoy?
So are you saying you want to take away the rights of the podiums/grid girls to earn their income?
🙄
that will be why we see such a cross section of sizes, shapes and ages then its because they value people skill so much
it's not [b]just[/b] looks
The funny thing is, the guy in the middle of the 2 podium girls is there purely because of physical attributes as well- I suppose the difference is that to an extent his attributes can be acquired through training. So there's an element of discipline and dedication to training,and society agrees that that's something we can admire and aspire to.
[i] So there's an element of discipline and dedication to training,and society agrees that that's something we can admire and aspire to[/i]
So when you actually started typing this bit, you didn't realise the first bit was meaningless? 😆
why aren't there podium boys as well?
There are - been posted in this thread.
If this is true, I'd like to see a job description!
I bet you it doesn't just say 'pretty'. You can bet they want articulate people who are cheerful. They're representing the organizers, even if you regard it as quite low down the hierarchy. The last thing the organizers will want is miserable podium girls rambling incoherently. But does that make any difference to your argument? If 13yo girls are self harming because the podium girls are prettier than them they will also self harm if the podium girls are more articulate than them, or if they see a female doctor or documentary presenter who's academically brighter than them. To solve this problem we should surely only see the very worst examples of mankind in the media.
The Queen is on the podium beacause of who she is.
So are the podium girls.
that will be why we see such a cross section of sizes, shapes and ages then its because they value people skill so much
*All* the decent pubs near me employ relatively attractive people (male and female) for front of house work. That's not their only attribute, but it's certainly one.
the 13 year old self harming in the school toilets because she can't conform to a ridiculous media fetish
Wheras the physical attributes of TdF winners can be easily replicated by us all!
They could have jugglers or something. Wild animals - who doesn't like a panda bear ?
Both would get my vote. But wouldn't Badgers start self harming because they weren't as cute as the Pandas?
Um, not respect (cos I find that word is so over-used that it's become meaningless) but rather treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself. You know, some women can be just as guilty of leering but the difference could be that they don't shout 'nice ar$e' etc.No problem with podium boys so long as they don't look as though they've walked off the Love Island set.
So... that's exactly "respect" then, no? Those "some women" are appreciating the male form, but are managing not to make it personal, not to make it invasive or aggressive.
Apologies Cougar for not replying, bit of a rubbish day. OK, I had a look in my (Oxford English) dictionary to clarify this word "respect". So we have "feeling of admiration for someone because of their qualities or achievements" and "consideration for the feelings or rights of other people".
So, yeah, I'd go for the interpretation of the second. To continue my nitpicking, should a word have two such different meanings?
[b]OOB[/b]
If 13yo girls are self harming because the podium girls are prettier than them they will also self harm if the podium girls are more articulate than them, or if they see a female doctor or documentary presenter who's academically brighter than them. To solve this problem we should surely only see the very worst examples of mankind in the media
If you were close to a teenage girl with an eating disorder and body image issues, you woulldn't spout such utter self-justifing piffle. 👿
Apart from G_C and a couple of others that may be lurking, you know you're trying to determine what's right for women, a wide range of women at that, without consulting them?
Sound familiar? 🙂
If you were close to a teenage girl with an eating disorder and body image issues, you woulldn't spout such utter self-justifing piffle.
So my opinion would be different if I was unable to view the topic objectively. Yes that's true. Luckily, I can.
perchypanther - Member
They could have jugglers or something. Wild animals - who doesn't like a panda bear ?
Most Pandas can't juggle.They also complain incessantly.It'd be pandemonium.
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[/img]Very well done, sir! You ought to be writing for Michael Macintyre, you're certainly a lot funnier than he is! 😀
Bellends 🙄
Thank you for that positive and insightful contribution.
None of this is about empowerment, and it is an embarassment that it continues.
In your world perhaps. However I watched the ceremony today (as I do most days) and didn't see anyone looking embarrassed. Podium girls are a bit of harmless fun that add a bit of colour to the sport. And I guess they have the added benefit of giving some people yet another thing to get worked up over.
And as someone said above, people take advantage of their genetic make-up in terms of intelligence or sporting prowess. Why shouldn't they also take advantage of their good looks?. In many ways it's no different. These girls are using their good looks and good personalities to make some money and have a fun job, so good luck to them.
So, yeah, I'd go for the interpretation of the second. To continue my nitpicking, should a word have two such different meanings?
I meant the second, but perhaps both apply and they're not all that different?
you know you're trying to determine what's right for women, a wide range of women at that, without consulting them?
I had the same thought whilst milling round Tesco earlier this evening (cos, y'know, I'm naturally a hunter-gatherer because Man). There's an irony in that (mostly) a bunch of middle-aged men are arguing about how best to defend the rights and honour of women by suggesting how they should all stop doing something they want to do because us allegedly 'progressive men' find it outdated and demeaning.
That's not the solution, it's the problem.
You ought to be writing for Michael Macintyre
Ouch.
Why shouldn't they also take advantage of their good looks?. In many ways it's no different.
I think I broadly agree.
The problem is when it's presented in a way that that's "how you should be," if you're not pretty and stick-thin, if you're not putting yourself out there for the gratification of men, then you're essentially worthless.
The elephant in the room here is, is that what's happening here? Are they vacuous dolly-birds strutting round in bikinis projecting an air of "you know, you could have me," or are they intelligent, professional young women with exceptional social and PR skills who are getting berated because they're also pretty? I've not really seen this stuff first-hand so I don't know, but from others' comments it would seem to me to be the latter.
I've not seen many air hostesses who aren't immaculately turned out, with their hair and make-up polished to the n'th degree. Is this vastly different? (That's a question not a statement, I don't know as I have the answer.)
Nice bit of sexism justifying fifth-form level logic, TPB and ARM... try harder
Eh.. What justification did I make exactly? I simply agreed with cougars point that it depends how you see it. How is that 5th form logic exactly ?
Back in your box..
I know someone who worked s one once
She was a model and she was picked from her portfolio based entirely on her appearance without an interview
She was not once assessed for her skill set in dealing with people or anything else.
When she went - Moto GP or some such as a brolly holder she said she was pawed relentlessly and told if she complained or challenged folk she would not get any more work
She did not pass a rigorous exam and interview that assessed her PR skills, her social interaction skills, her witty banter or customer service expertise
she was picked on her looks and nothing more.
The elephant in the room here is, is that what's happening here? Are they vacuous dolly-birds strutting round in bikinis projecting an air of "you know, you could have me," or are they intelligent, professional young women with exceptional social and PR skills who are getting berated because they're also pretty?
No they're just good looking women earning good money for literally nothing, and why wouldn't they?
Why does everything have to be over thought FFS?
Yeah, we're sick of these "thinkers."