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😀 I don't think Sagan cares, whatever he can get a hold of!
[i]What if she was fit and intelligent?[/i]
Sales
(More seriously, to go all flag-waving-outraged on a forum is actually a bit naff. Women nowadays have voices, choices and don't need you lot to say what's good for them).
Rather the point I was trying to make, maybe a bit clumsily, perhaps.
Considering these are possibly the best athletes in the world; would it be appropriate for an average looking girl to be kissing them on the cheek and handing them a bunch of flowers?
actual lol 😆
One for the professionally offended I think. `
I think this idea that anyone who thinks we should sack off podium girls is 'offended', or wants to ban anything they don't agree with, or wishes to dictate to women what they should do with their bodies, yak yak yak, is lazy thinking (and rather ignores what people are actually saying. The only people mentioning banning are the ones slapping down the idea of banning).
You don't need to be 'offended' by podium girls to find the whole concept a bit embarrassing and think we should probably give up. In the same way that you may find it slightly depressing that Jim Davidson still has a career, but that's not necessarily because you 'can't handle it' or want to censor him. It's just because it's tedious old guff.
So the issue then is respect, isn't it. It's the line - and really, it should be more of a motorway - between being able to look at a pretty girl / guy and think "oh, she's pretty" and extrapolating that into them just being there to be used for our gratification. And so the solution isn't banning podium girls, it's teaching young people (ok, primarily men) not to grow up to be disrespectful arseholes.
This is right but - as you say, we still need to teach people - we're not there yet. There is still a huge imbalance in gender power relations. And until we do get to something approaching genuine equality, paying some interchangeable nameless trophy girls (note they're never referred to as podium women) to simper and fawn over famous millionaire men is going to look a bit cringey. And a bit bollocks.
And it doesn't need to be banned but shelving it for a little while might help the UCI look like it is taking women a bit more seriously.
So the issue then is respect, isn't it. It's the line - and really, it should be more of a motorway - between being able to look at a pretty girl / guy and think "oh, she's pretty" and extrapolating that into them just being there to be used for our gratification. And so the solution isn't banning podium girls, it's teaching young people (ok, primarily men) not to grow up to be disrespectful arseholes. Oh, and get some podium boys in too whilst you're at it.
Um, not respect (cos I find that word is so over-used that it's become meaningless) but rather treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself. You know, some women can be just as guilty of leering but the difference could be that they don't shout 'nice ar$e' etc.
No problem with podium boys so long as they don't look as though they've walked off the Love Island set. 🙂
You don't need to be 'offended' by podium girls to find the whole concept a bit embarrassing and think we should probably give up. In the same way that you may find it slightly depressing that Jim Davidson still has a career, but that's not necessarily because you 'can't handle it' or want to censor him. It's just because it's tedious old guff.
Absolutely agree, it's just that the ones who seem to want to bang on and on about it seem to enjoy having some thing to get upset about.
They should bring back Page Free an all.
I might sit through the bordem of lycra men on racers if there are some chicks at the end.
I might sit through the bordem of lycra men on racers if there are some chicks at the end.
Yup, makes it all worth it doesn't it?!
Also worth popping to your nearest Littlewoods, get hold of a free catalogue. The lingerie section is something else!
I don't see people anywhere coming out of the woodwork to demonise the objectification of men
Give it a few millenniums of us being the underclass and "weaker gender" and it might just happen.
Seriously you cannot think the two are equivalent- the objectification of women and men is just not a fair comparison.
Like you I am torn if they want to do it is there choice but the fact they are asked is down to men wanting it and its just not needed.
I would not be having podium girls were i ever to be organising an awards night YMMV
You don't need to be 'offended' by podium girls to find the whole concept a bit embarrassing and think we should probably give up. In the same way that you may find it slightly depressing that Jim Davidson still has a career, but that's not necessarily because you 'can't handle it' or want to censor him. It's just because it's tedious old guff.
This is it. The stage ceremonies are total bobbins and need shaking up. Bin the birds - add nothing to it. Rider and their bike are elevated on to the stage by rising hidden platform to music of their choice. A bit of dry ice. A massive screen behind them showing the money shot of them being awsums. Quick interview on stage about how god like they were by someone with personality. No random podium girls, no flowers, no stupid lion cuddly toy, no line up of awkward looking great and the good of TDF stage right.
We live in a time (and place) where women have absolute social, economic and political agency and are more than capable of using the abundant legal recourse available to them if there is any exploitation or abuse.
The problem with stating that and assuming the job is done is the gulf between theory and reality, as demonstrated by the gender pay gap.
As had been said above, it's not something that should be [i]banned[/i], but something that the organisers should just choose not to keep on doing.
Fine, the girls up there have chosen to be there, are being paid, etc etc. The issue is the fact that it's yet another little signal to [b]all the other girls[/b] especially the young ones that that's the way things should be: chaps do heroic things, you just stand there looking pretty.
I'd rather the dozens of everyday-sexism hints weren't thrown in the faces of our kids: this seems like an easy one to fix.
Without trawling through five pages, could someone please post an image, or even better - a collection, or gallery, if you will of these 'podium girls'?
I can then come to an informed opinion with which to join the discourse.
Thanks.
Query: Who actually watches cycling on the Telly?
Who actually watches cycling on the Telly?
Not many worldwide. Official figures put it around the 4....billion*. About the same as Countdown I recon.
*it seems a funny way of counting but if you watch it every day for 3 weeks you would be 21 of the 4 billion. So it's only really 175 million people a day so a tiny figure hardly worth counting.
CountZero - Member
I find it interesting that there are so many people indulging in a hand-wringing exercise in getting offended on behalf of other people, in this case women who happen to be both attractive and intelligent, and suggesting that those people should be banned from being paid well to do a job that they seem to enjoy, on the basis that they find those jobs demeaning, which I can't help but feel is both patronising and sexist.
Offended isnt the right word, all the way back the page 1 where there was a great explanation from tour down under and South Australia, they stopped hiring them because it went against all the other things they were doing. Of all the women involved in TdF 99% of those you will see are podium girls.
Not the team people, docs, physios etc. It's saying we ignore this and the only ones who are important do nothing say nothing and look nice. It's just sad.
I'd much prefer local junior riders be up there on some sort of merit.
If all the podiums/grid girls are banned, what are they going to do? 😯
Um, not respect (cos I find that word is so over-used that it's become meaningless) but rather treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself. You know, some women can be just as guilty of leering but the difference could be that they don't shout 'nice ar$e' etc.
So... that's exactly "respect" then, no? Those "some women" are appreciating the male form, but are managing not to make it personal, not to make it invasive or aggressive.
chewkw - Member
If all the podiums/grid girls are banned, what are they going to do?
Help you with your mealtimes and potty training.
Perhaps having podium girls in niqab is the compromise solution?
We've not done Ruth Davidsons tweet of Gillian Anderson yet?
sockpuppetI'd rather the dozens of everyday-sexism hints weren't thrown in the faces of our kids: [b]this seems like an easy one to fix[/b].
I think in a slightly counter intuitive way this is what bothers me about the whole thing. Yes, it is an easy one to fix. Just apply the correct amount of media pressure or political pressure to the TDF organisers and it'll most likely get the practice stopped. But then what?
Correcting a culture where young women and girls only have scantilly clad overtly sexual pop stars and porn stars (I'm looking at you Kim Kardashian) is a much heavier lift in cultural terms.
But then what?Correcting a culture where young women and girls only have scantilly clad overtly sexual pop stars and porn stars (I'm looking at you Kim Kardashian) is a much heavier lift in cultural terms.
The focus of a sporting event remains the sport. Then you can also look at music and film if you want. Nothing stopping people doing both or one or the other.
Oh and perhaps the TdF could make more of the fact that in general it seems like blokes doing the cooking and cleaning of the bikes and other outdated gender role stuff being flipped around 😉
Yes, it is an easy one to fix. [snip]
Correcting a culture where young women and girls only have scantilly clad overtly sexual pop stars and porn stars (I'm looking at you Kim Kardashian) is a much heavier lift in cultural terms.
Interesting perspective. Banning scantily clad women from Cycling will make no difference to how women perceive themselves because few of them watch it. Banning scantily clad women from pop videos would have a massive effect because women do watch them. FFS, I saw a kids panto this christmas which included scantily clad ladies dancing and all the five year olds were loving it.
On reflection, sporting prize givings are entertainment/Theatre. Pop videos are entertainment/theatre. Not clear to me why one is fine, and one is not.
The focus of a sporting event remains the sport.
Yeah, but awarding trophies publically isn't 'the sport', it's a bit of razzamataz tagged on to the end of the sport to jazz it up a bit.
Freedom to work as or employ podium girls outweighs the offended.
Not clear to me why one is fine, and one is not.
Stop over thinking it then... it has nothing to do with the clothes they are wearing, it's about why they are there.
There is also a big difference between banning and not doing something.
it has nothing to do with the clothes they are wearing, it's about why they are there.
They're there to add a bit of theatre, jazz the whole thing up, make it a bit of a spectacle.
Is that what you feel when you see them? Would it be different if the local junior road teams were presenting the prizes?
Is that what you feel when you see them?
I'm not really interested in trophy presenting as a spectator sport. For me trophy presenting is all about shuffling up looking slightly ashamed head bowed, shaking hands with some old bloke who used to be interested in the sport and then wandering off wishing the ground would swallow me up.
Would it be different if the local junior road teams were presenting the prizes?
There are loads of different ways to skin the same cat. Local road teams would work, I'm sure. Personally I'd watch trained lions escorting the riders, that would be cool. Or an Elephant with fireworks on it...
Kids on the podium wouldn't work at all, most are too small to land that important Kiss on the cheek, and boardering on Child Sexism and underage working rule S2997,SS3,P4 of the "Kids are too young to work, unless they're from China or Sub Saharan Africa where they're too far away to be acknowledged"
What if she was fit and intelligent?Sales
hahahahahaha, too funny.
Thanks.
I think confusion arises because a lot of us grew up in the 80s; like Spare Rib era, New Man, Germaine Greer, all that stuff - we were educated in a society where gender stereotyping was actively being contested and feminism was establishing itself. The media was full of messages that women shouldn't be judged on their appearance and those of us with an iota of intelligence, that didn't gawp at page 3 every day, took this stuff on board... however subconsciously that may have been.
Then the internet era arrives and that's all out the window as far as mainstream media goes.. we now have stuff like Love Island, Naked Dating, vapid celebs famous just for how they look etc etc and well, the whole damn Internet!
We just dunno how to think no more.
Remember this? http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/pad-times-for-sixsixone/
Hey, she was a model, getting paid! What was the fuss about?
Be good to see a Gay Guy in tight jeans and open v-neck t-shirt up there on one side, a Plus Size Woman in a smock on the other.. gawd help us if you see a Black person anywhere near the stage ...
In that case, it seems lots of folk do find podium girls acceptable. [b]Including, quite crucially, the podium girls themselves. [/b]Turns out the debate was quite simple in the end.
It's almost as if the debate has passed you by.
Those podium steps don't look very wheelchair friendly either.
We just dunno how to think no more.
It's not easy, that's true. It's also really difficult to appreciate the difference between an individual and a wider class and how the positives for an individual may impact as a negative to a wider population.
One thing I really struggled with was recognising my own (white, male, middle aged) privilege. It so subconscious and assumed that it becomes automatic. I do it with the kids all the time, and catch myself making assumptions when I shouldn't. A learned behaviour that needs to be unlearned.
I think there's also a lack of awareness as to the societal differences between genders that still exists despite the legal equality we (in theory) have. Much like the comparison between racial inequality despite legally being equal. One only has to look at the "institutional racism" of the Met Police to understand that the laws may be there, but those responsible for enforcing those laws (the police, judiciary etc.) need to understand and practice equality too.
The podium girls are just a small aspect of the wider picture IMHO.
I think confusion arises because a lot of us grew up in the 80s; like Spare Rib era, New Man, Germaine Greer, all that stuff - we were educated in a society where gender stereotyping was actively being contested and feminism was establishing itself. The media was full of messages that women shouldn't be judged on their appearance and those of us with an iota of intelligence, that didn't gawp at page 3 every day, took this stuff on board... however subconsciously that may have been.
This. I honestly feel I was brainwashed. I spent my entire youth being fed the line that women are the same as men, now I feel miffed that actually women aren't the same at all, they want to give up work and have families and they want the kitchen to be 'theirs' and they want the bloke to maintain the house and cars because those are blue jobs. They want to buy makeup and go on diets & have final say in decisions relating to children. They're completely different to men.
I sat near three women in the pub last night. For the hour I was there they talked of nothing but how they looked, what made them look better, what made them look worse. Past make up disasters. My guess is they would have been pleased as punch to be offered the chance to be Podium girls.
I have the feeling that 'feminism' forgot to consult women.
PeyoteOne thing I really struggled with was recognising my own (white, male, middle aged) privilege.
Well I bet it was a shock to find out that you were completely oblivious to your own secret subconscious racism. Have you received your [s]brainwashing[/s] racial awareness training to rid you of any subconscious bias you might be harboring? If you haven't, then you're probably still a racist. Sorry to break it to you.
I think there's also a lack of awareness as to the societal differences between genders that still exists despite the legal equality we (in theory) have. Much like the comparison between racial inequality despite legally being equal.
I can't wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.
[i]For the hour I was there they talked of nothing but how they looked, what made them look better, what made them look worse.[/i]
But surely this is because they've been "brainwashed" as to how important what they look like is?! Exactly what all that 80s stuff was trying to get rid of.
Or maybe... not. 😕
DezBFor the hour I was there they talked of nothing but how they looked, what made them look better, what made them look worse.
But surely this is because they've been "brainwashed" as to how important what they look like is?! Exactly what all that 80s stuff was trying to get rid of.
Or maybe... not.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism ]Sexual dimorphism.[/url]
Have you received your brainwashing racial awareness training to rid you of any subconscious bias you might be harboring?
Nope, I think the point is that I recognise it and try to avoid it, rather than remove it. Call it, being enlightened to my faults if that helps!
I can't wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.
Wow, that was a leap! From legal and societal equality to physically being the same? Interesting, care to explain the logic here?
<snip> I sat near three women in the pub last night. <snip>
Not really a representative sample I would suggest. Besides, I'm not sure that the majority of feminists would argue that looking atrractive/make up use is intrinsically anti-feminist. Could be wrong though, I'm not a feminist!
Cycling Podcast covered this yesterday:
https://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/kilometre-0-tour-de-france-2017
Personally i don't have too much of an issue with the podium girls, they aren't scantily dressed, and they are doing a role they want to do, surely it is their choice and as stated, they serve a bigger role than just the prize giving, they are ambassadors for their town or area and are all intelligent ladies.
I think the far bigger issue for ladies, is why they are constantly treated as second class to the men on the actual bikes, why is there is no ladies Grand Tour, why do we feel ladies cycling is any less exciting?
If you look at tennis, there was a concerted drive to make pay equal the tournaments to be for both sexes and women's tennis is watched by just as many people as the men's
Team Sky should be reminded of the fact that the many millions they have, Brailsford originally stated he would have a woman's team too a few years ago. Imagine if Sky did start a women's team too as they promised and they all campaigned for proper televised racing and Grand Tours, i think they'd be taken seriously.
I think the podium girls is the last of the sports worries when it comes to the finer side of the sexes. I have a 7 year old daughter and i worry far more about the Little Mix videos she constantly wants to watch on Youtube as an example for her
But surely this is because they've been "brainwashed" as to how important what they look like is?! Exactly what all that 80s stuff was trying to get rid of.
Or maybe... not.
I think not.
Seems to me that the things that interest blokes have a lot of parrallels with male pre-historic role (hunting), and the things that interest women have a lot of parrallels with female prehistoric roles (gathering and nurturing).
I suspect blokes like riding bikes because it's a bit like chasing prey and women like nurturing children buying crap they don't need because it's a lot like gathering berries and errr... nurturing children.
I'd really love to be wrong about this but I fear I'm not.
Peyote
Have you received your [s]brainwashing[/s] racial awareness training to rid you of any subconscious bias you might be harboring?Nope, I think the point is that I recognise it and try to avoid it, rather than remove it. Call it, being enlightened to my faults if that helps!
Oh dear, someone's still a racist 😳
Seems to me that the things that interest blokes have a lot of parrallels with male pre-historic role (hunting), and the things that interest women have a lot of parrallels with female prehistoric roles (gathering and nurturing).
Evolutionary psychology? I'm not sure how accepted that is in scientific circles these days.
Oh dear, someone's still a racist
Well yes, we all are.
I'm racially dimorphic.
Evolutionary psychology? I'm not sure how accepted that is in scientific circles these days.
Sounds implausible but I'd be interested in hearing an alternative theory to explain why women and men typically like different stuff and behave in different ways.
I used to think it was all nurture but having a child of each gender made me realize they assign themselves gender roles from the year dot regardless of what parents try to instill.
It sounds quite plausible when attempting to retrofit it to what we are currently living in, and has gained a fair amount of traction over the years. Trouble is, there's very little evidence to back it up - we don't really know how cave-folk lived. It may have been a matriarchal society for all we know!
I still believe it is mostly nuture, having a child of each gender I disagree with your assertion about the gender roles from year dot. That isn't my experience. They are each individuals, and it could just be yours follow societal patterns and mine don't!
DezB - I'm racially polymorphic. Still racist though!
It's almost as if the debate has passed you by.
My understanding is the debate is about whether podium girls are "acceptable" these days. Some people think they are, some don't, and some (probably 99% of the general public) don't care.
I don't have massively strong feelings as to whether they are a good or bad thing, but do feel strongly that if girls want to be podium girls then they are quite entitled to do that job.
If I am missing something then feel free to enlighten me. Or just endlessly re-paste that one ling thing you were doing earlier. Whatever.
It sounds quite plausible when attempting to retrofit it to what we are currently living in, and has gained a fair amount of traction over the years. Trouble is, there's very little evidence to back it up - we don't really know how cave-folk lived. It may have been a matriarchal society for all we know!
Well a matriarchal society would explain why women make most of the domestic decisions. ...but I take your point there's never going to be evidence beyond circumstantial and confirmation bias is always going to be a problem.
I still believe it is mostly nuture, having a child of each gender I disagree with your assertion about the gender roles from year dot. That isn't my experience.
Well mine might be exceptions but I think the nurture has been taken out of the equation these days. Myself and all of our NCT friends (which was usually the sole peer group of our batch of babies for the first year of their life) were all painstaking in our efforts not to influence the kids on gender lines. Yet still the boys would want to pick up cars and bash them and the girls would want to make pretend cups of tea and feed dolls as soon as they could crawl and grasp something.
I'm just not convinced that I like bikes because I was brainwashed into it and my sister kids 'cos she was brainwashed into it. ...and this brainwashing is global...
Impossible to prove either way though.
Impossible to prove either way though.
I agree!
It's always going to be a bit of personal choice as to which side of the fence you choose to fall on, and please don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that there aren't any differences between men/women and boys/girls either physical or psychological. I do however think these differences are massively magnified by society and often used to create detrimental conditions for females which is essentially what I fundamentally disagree with.
Getting back to the thread title, the podium girls are just another (admittedly small) facet of the greater problem. FWIW I don't think that the individual girls (well, women) are generally exploited in this example, it's a step change to prostitution etc. I suppose it's more the principle that I have a slight issue with. Should they be banned? I don't know. I feel uncomfortable with there being an expectation for them being there in the first place.
Getting back to the thread title, the podium girls are just another (admittedly small) facet of the greater problem. FWIW I don't think that the individual girls (well, women) are generally exploited in this example, it's a step change to prostitution etc. I suppose it's more the principle that I have a slight issue with. Should they be banned? I don't know. I feel uncomfortable with there being an expectation for them being there in the first place.
If you *did* ban women from the stage at sporting events would you also ban women from the stage in theatres/pop videos? Should we go back to the Elizabethan convention that women's roles are performed by men?
If you *did* ban women from the stage at sporting events would you also ban women from the stage in theatres/pop videos?Should we go back to the Elizabethan convention that women's roles are performed by men?
I'm not sure why you would want to do either of these. If a coherent argument could be put together as to why then I'd be happy to listen to it.
It's certainly not something that I have read/heard within any feminist circles I've been party to. I guess the issues and concerns with these examples are different to those of the podium girls.
I'm not sure why you would want to do either of these.
I don't want to do either I think we've got it right in the liberal west.
I thought when you said "Should they be banned? I don't know." you were considering advocating banning women from the stage at prize giving as an option. What *were* you considering advocating banning?
If I am missing something then feel free to enlighten me. Or just endlessly re-paste that one ling thing you were doing earlier. Whatever.
You were advancing the argument that as there are people willing to volunteer, then it must be ok. I thought we'd got past that, but apparently not. I guess that's why my "endless" re-pastes were mostly unanswered.
[i]If you *did* ban women from the stage at sporting events[/i]
It's nothing to do with "banning".. if they get a podium place in an event, they're quite welcome! If they crash the podium to snog the winner, no worries! This is about employing totty to stand decoratively on the podium.
I thought when you said "Should they be banned? I don't know." you were considering advocating banning women from the stage at prize giving as an option. What *were* you considering advocating banning?
I think it should be an option, but I'm not sure if banning it is something I would support. Hence my "I don't know". I'm reluctant to ban anything if the truth be told, but recognise that some things are necessary.
Ultimately, I'd like the point of them being there to be removed, i.e. them not to be seen as trophies (and other reasons as previously explained on this thread) in which case banning would be pointless as their raison d'etre would've gone.
I think it should be an option, but I'm not sure if banning it is something I would support.
Who has asked for them to be banned?
It's nothing to do with "banning". snip This is about employing totty to stand decoratively on the podium.
Yes, and I'm trying to explore how you intend to stop that. Would you allow ugly women to stand on the podium? Would you allow attractive women but only if they had a real role - like handing chanpagne to the winner or presenting the trophy. Would you allow convincing female impersonators?
outofbreathWould you allow convincing female impersonators?
[i]Oh jesus,[/i] what kind of dinosaur are you? Obviously a transphobic one.
Other sex, genderqueer, pangender, non binary, transfeminine, tri-gender, two spirit, transmaculine, bi-gender, agender and androgyne people are not "female impersonators". That's hate speech.
Someone needs to check their privilege.
I dunno, Lily Savage and Dame Edna each planting a kiss on the cheek of the winner? Sounds ok.
Who has asked for them to be banned?
We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.
We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.
It's a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it's supporting an unequal system that does require change. So, who cops it? Society, or the individual?
I think I'd err on the side of society if it was that simple.
Applying the same logic to pop videos and Elizabethan actors seems false. I suppose they have the back up that they are using skill/talent in their dancing/singing/acting rather than just being decorative. Quite nuanced though, depending on the performer and on how subjective you want to be.
PeyoteIt's a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it's supporting an unequal system that does require change.
What system is that exactly?
What system is that exactly?
The system that allows females to be treated as second class citizens compared to males.
We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.
It's a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it's supporting an unequal system that does require change. So, who cops it? Society, or the individual?I think I'd err on the side of society if it was that simple.
Well that clears that up...
I tried, what do you want?
Some titillation, dinner on the table with the washing up done?
I tried, what do you want?
You were replying to this:
We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.
We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.
Who are you speaking for?
Who are you speaking for?
All those struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.
and what would I like?
something like this
[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/33931810545_9a00e2e6b2_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/33931810545_9a00e2e6b2_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/TGrp7i ]EWS17_Tasmania_Race-2844[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/143752613@N06/ ]Enduro World Series[/url], on Flickr
[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/33546496450_70d1766c09_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/33546496450_70d1766c09_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/T7oyDQ ]EWS17_Tasmania_Race-2863[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/143752613@N06/ ]Enduro World Series[/url], on Flickr
Grown up, people celebrating and no need for some extra totty
Peyote
What system is that exactly?The system that allows females to be treated as second class citizens compared to males.
I wasn't aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?
Yeah, that would be good Mikewsmith!
They're currently discussing podium girls on ITV4's TDF coverage.
It's France, they have a different attitude. No Podium girls = no pay for them. OK it may be pocket money buts in their pockets
I wasn't aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?
I don't know, but if they echo what is happening here in Britain then there's plenty to Google. Check out the 50:50 campaign for equal representation in parliament for a start. I'd be surprised if there wasn't equivalents in France, but happy to be corrected.