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Count Zero - a knife is much harder to do mass killings with than a gun. Its an arms length weapon v a distance one
Yeah, right…
#rollseyes
What a stunning counter argument. Think about all those scenarios and how they would change if the criminal had access to firearms.
Lets just take London bridge. How do you reckon a fire extinguisher and a narwhal tusk would have done against an Ar-15 variant. My money is on the AR-15 user.
Sure you still get nutters but the risk they pose is greatly reduced if they are waving a knife from argos vs a modern semi auto rifle with large capacity mag.
He did correct a spelling mistake though so that's me told.
@tjagain could you cite a source outside of the US which, culturally, has an hideously toxic relationship with firearms. Quite frankly you're being insulting in your assertion that gun ownership is some sort of fetish. I enjoy shooting because of the discipline and self control required, not because I see it as some sort of willy waving exercise. Quite frankly anyone who finds empowerment behind a gun doesn't deserve to handle one much less own it.
If you still want to talk about power play kinks go find a BDSM group, I'm sure you'll have quite the education.
There is a guy repeatedly letting off his shotgun in the garden next door. About once every 30 mins. Asserting his rights? We’re about 15 miles from Plymouth. There can’t be much sport to be had, it’s not that big a garden.
You may find it insulting squirrelking but its all over the literature
Its all about feeling powerful and in control for many people. Thats what the research shows.
Its also obvious in the way folk on here and in other places talk about guns and knives.
you may be an outlier but that is what its all about for many folk
There is a guy repeatedly letting off his shotgun in the garden next door.
You sure its a shotgun? Would seem odd using it in not that "big a garden". Chances of it being safe or legal unless you have a decent amount of land to play in is fairly low.
Yes, it is odd, that’s why I brought it up. And yes, it is a shotgun.
Oh, I’m not against the ownership of shotguns, my mum has working gun dogs… but why does anyone need one at home? Never mind someone living in a city, like Plymouth.
Yes, it is odd, that’s why I brought it up. And yes, it is a shotgun.
I would be tempted to phone 111 or whatever that nonemergency number is and ask for the firearms licencing units opinion on it.
but why does anyone need one at home?
If you spend your weekend claypigeon shooting where would you keep it? I guess at the club but then that gives a nice target for criminals and also means they need to invest in decent security. Or if you shoot at several clubs then what?
I am not sure there is an easy answer. Maybe start with raising the requirements for a shotgun licence to match a section 1 firearm licence? Depends on what comes out of the review into how he got the licence restored I think.
‘guns don’t kill, people kill’
= People kill using guns.
I should think by now we've all pretty much accepted this as fact, which also ends the argument right there.
No need for the public to own firearms, and if they want to shoot them, then they can only do so in a gun club.
Of course that doesnt defend against the owner of the gun club being the one who goes loopy, nor of an incident occurring inside a gun club.
The vast majority of shotguns are owned by normal everyday people.
But pump action? What for?
Hmmm- I seem to have lost a post
Squirrellking - remind me again what sort of shooting you do?
There is a guy repeatedly letting off his shotgun in the garden next door. About once every 30 mins. Asserting his rights? We’re about 15 miles from Plymouth. There can’t be much sport to be had, it’s not that big a garden.
I think that needs reported, unless your idea of a garden is an estate or something.
Air licence holder, shotgun curious (the club has several ranges) and shot .22 target and 5.56mm cadet rifles at school which, honestly, would be my preference if I lived close enough to a range and had the time to sit probation.
Pump action has been explained, it corresponds to the maximum number of barrels and thus loaded shots for a gun. Any more than 3 and its a section 1.
Should also note that firearms departments are hideously under staffed and have been for years. I know one guy who's been waiting on his shotgun certificate for 2 years and that was kicked off long before covid. This shouldn't have happened and people should be held to account but be under no illusion that throwing legislation at it will cure the underlying problems.
Fair enough squirrellking.
This shouldn’t have happened and people should be held to account but be under no illusion that throwing legislation at it will cure the underlying problems.
Of course gun legislation (which is already place) won't cure mental health illness.
I still remain surprised that a sound reason is not required (farmer, gun club etc, rather than I would just like a gun because)
I could no doubt get a gun very easily even though I have no need for one at all. Just seems odd but I can live with that when putting it in perspective of the risk/low incident rate.
Whoever gave that guy a "pass" grade on the anger management course must be having a wee think about that
Surely the technology exists to have non lethal guns for target shooting. That would also solve the problem of access to shooting ranges.
Quite frankly you’re being insulting in your assertion that gun ownership is some sort of fetish
Insulting to fetishists. I don't recall groups of people being killed by leather daddies wielding nipple tassles. They'd be horrified to be bracketed with gun nerds.
It's a yes and no, on the technology thing, but mostly a no IMO.
It's not as simple as swapping to laser style guns as they don't replicate ballistics, and the effect of gravity and wind on the round, or shot in flight. Neither would they replicate the kick and other charictaristics of a firearm. I know they are sometimes used in sports where a short range pistol would originally have been used, but even there I'd argue an air-pistol would be a better subsitute.
I shot a fair amount in my youth, on an ATC shooting team, then University OTC team and finally in the TA (as it was). I wasn't brilliant but I did find it very enjoyable, when having a good day it was a similar feeling to when you have flow in any other sports. I get why people want to shoot and enjoy shooting - there's nothing there about power over others as part of that. I've seen people act far more irrationally and dangerously when out cycling and finding walkers blocking their descent that I ever saw with anyone on a range with firearms.
These days I only shoot air-rifles and pistols, and not very often. My local range has lanes out to 50m for sub 12 ft/lb air-rifles which provides a nice challenge, but doesn't compare to the fitness, skill and fun of doing a proper Service Rifle or Pistol style of competition.
I've done a few clay pigeon shoots and thought about applying for club membership and a SGC as I really enjoyed it, but TBH at the moment I'd sooner spend money on my bikes and other hobbies.
As for UK firearms laws and the process for applying for certificates. IMO they could do with a massive overhaul and the management of certificates given to a national agency better resourced and aligned to deal with them than the police. The laws in their present state are somewhat of a mess and can be illogical - especially when air weapons, airsoft and paintball guns are also factored in. I've known police officer mates be at a complete loss as to what I'm legally permitted, what I must have a certificate for, or is out right banned.
Unfortunately as the number of shooters is comparitively small I doubt there would be a proper, and sensible, overhaul of firearms laws and the certifcate issuing process and just more knee-jerk reactions to show that 'something was done' to silence the press. After this one I expect demands to inspect the social media history of all SGC/FAC applicants - never mind the fact that the local FAO is already swamped with a backlog of work, and not all nutters openly talk about their nuttiness on the web...
I still remain surprised that a sound reason is not required (farmer, gun club etc, rather than I would just like a gun because)
I could no doubt get a gun very easily even though I have no need for one at all. Just seems odd but I can live with that when putting it in perspective of the risk/low incident rate.
Whilst the difference between the licences has been described well its not just as simple as that. It depends on the force in question, the firearms officer in question and their attitude towards the process. Some make it easier, others are super strict. When the Air Weapon Licence came in up here there were doctors that refused to write a report and PS used that as grounds to refuse a licence. Pragmatically, you could argue those people had been no danger for years and the danger posed by a legal air weapon is minimal but they chose to err on the side of caution, no doubt fearing a repeat of the event that started the whole sorry process.
Insulting to fetishists. I don’t recall groups of people being killed by leather daddies wielding nipple tassles. They’d be horrified to be bracketed with gun nerds.
So now anyone who shoots is to blame and just another killer in waiting? Does that mean I can say sadists are mentally abusive? Furries are closet zoophiles? I could make a lot of demeaning generalisations about things folk get up to but that would just make me a dick. You also clearly need to go read up the difference between a kink and a fetish.
squirrelking
A fetish is not necessarily sexual
An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices.
An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence.
I can't say I've met any UK shooters that really applies to, not to say there couldn't be a few. But, speaking with some Americans... you realise there are some who own a lot of guns, and stock piles of ammo, but don't appear to be all that interested in actaual shooting or the application of the principles of marksmanship.
Now, that's not to say that some people are far more into the mechanical side of things - like building their own guns, or making their own ammuniction which sounds a bit like an art in itself. But I have occasionally spoken with the odd person who seems like they look forward to the day someone breaks into their house.
Without getting into the semantics, surely a gun is the most fetishistic of things, a completely magical object.
The handle or stock is invariably shaped like a womans body, the contours rewarding the hands in the most tactile way. And surely you can't deny the phallic nature of a gun barrel?
Conjoin the two and you literally have a sex sculpture as the sensuous forms of the butt of clasps onto a rigid shaft of hard metal whilst the finger tickles the clitoris... I mean trigger.
The thing ejaculates too.
Bigeared - whereas I have seen that in many UK folk when they talk about their guns and knives on here as well as other places.
I think its simply that it is so normalised amongst those who have guns few people notice it
What on earth do you think the mass slaughter on grouse moors is about?
TJ, my point exactly. The poster I was replying to seems to have his words mixed up.
I remember a fair few STWers having an enthusiasm for archery. I wonder how people feel about compound bows and arrows being capable of 7x the legal maximum energy of an air rifle (taking it into FAC territory)? Which works out about half of the energy of a .22 or .32 round and many times more than an individual shotgun pellet (at all but the extreme end of sizing). With absolutely no licensing in place.
But that's okay because it's a civilised middle class hobby with none of those "gun nerd" fetishists. Never mind the fact there is no need for a person in the 21st century to own a medieval hunting/fighting weapon capable of killing multiple people at range.
whereas I have seen that in many UK folk when they talk about their guns and knives on here as well as other places.
I've seen a few discussions on here but yet to see anything like you describe. What I have seen is folk hijacking them with a load of OMG KNIVES GUNS SADDOS agenda driven nonsense rather than either having a sensible conversation or just buggering off and leaving people to discuss a shared interest in peace.
Now, that’s not to say that some people are far more into the mechanical side of things – like building their own guns
I think one of the biggest users of ammo I know of never fires more than 3 feet and spends more time on his lathe than the range.
I agree - its not just guns and knives - all sorts of weapons are a fetish object to people
If you are satisified to shot low power air weapons than it probably doesn't apply. If you "need" a weapon far more powerful than is actually needed for your hobby or a collection of weapons then its probably is
Mind you I do fancy pistol crossbow. 😉
I’ve seen a few discussions on here but yet to see anything like you describe.
Have a reread of the "everyday carry knives" thread Its full of this
My guess is its normalised for you so you do not notice it
I know plenty of UK folk that are nerds about their hobbies, really getting into the nitty gritty of the equipment, what differences a certain tweak will make and so on. That's no different for shooting as it is mountain biking. It's not a fetish, unless this is a cycling fetish forum? Maybe best not to answer that. lol.
You are alluding to people who revere their weapons because it gives them the power to take a life - albeit game and not people. Not all people shoot game, and certainly not all shooters are Walter Mitty types who sit at home dreaming they are Rambo - well, I assume they aren't - I can't read minds. Most of the people I've met through shooting air-rifles seem about as interesting as the local cycling club membership. The same for my neighbour who shoots clays. Thousands of ordinary people shoot in some form or another, just like thousands enjoy cycling. I think you are over-playing this whole 'power to take lives fetish'.
I agree – its not just guns and knives – all sorts of weapons are a fetish object to people
If you are satisified to shot low power air weapons than it probably doesn’t apply. If you “need” a weapon far more powerful than is actually needed for your hobby or a collection of weapons then its probably is
Mind you I do fancy pistol crossbow. 😉
Ah, now I think I'm with you. It's hard to judge though, do you need 6" of travel for a tow-path kind of thing 😉
Yes - thats basically it.
Its just the fetishising of weapons is dangerous to society.
What a stunning counter argument. Think about all those scenarios and how they would change if the criminal had access to firearms.
But my response was to someone who maintains that multiple stabbings can’t occur because everyone can just run away from the perpetrator, which is clearly wrong as shown in the links I posted. And as far as the scenarios changing if the perp had access to firearms, yes, possibly, but the element of surprise doesn’t last for long when people start hearing loud bangs going off, and others running away - a knife is a silent weapon, people don’t even know they’ve been stabbed quite often, they think someone punched them.
And my other point would be that there have been far fewer mass shootings in this country due to our generally tough laws on gun ownership, it’s very, very easy to obtain a sharp weapon that’s easy to conceal and walk up to people and stab them and then another, and another, before they cotton on to the fact that someone is trying to kill lots of people.
I do quite clearly remember Dunblain and Hungerford, but I also remember the school massacre in Wolverhampton in 1996 when three children and four adults were attacked with a machete in a school playground. But I guess your counter-argument would be, oh, it might have been so much worse if he’d had a gun…, yes, it might, but he didn’t because of our more stringent gun laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverhampton_machete_attack
And I’d still like to know just how someone can get hold of a pump-action shotgun in this country; there is no legitimate reason I can think of for having one, it’s basically a close-quarters combat weapon.
But that’s okay because it’s a civilised middle class hobby with none of those “gun nerd” fetishists. Never mind the fact there is no need for a person in the 21st century to own a medieval hunting/fighting weapon capable of killing multiple people at range.
Say what now? Can you find any instances of someone going out with a bow and shooting at people? For a start, nocking an arrow, drawing it and releasing it takes time, unless of course you’re a medieval Welsh archer with a six-foot warbow, who can fire upwards of six a minute, but that’s volley shooting, not precision aiming.
There are compete dicks who happily buy crossbows to shoot animals with, but those, and target bows, don’t shoot arrows with a warhead - that makes a big difference.
But it’s a really daft argument to try and make, archery requires skill and a great deal of practice and patience to do well. It was also a legal requirement once upon a time.
Strength comes into it as well, I’ve tried drawing a yew warbow, I couldn’t get it to draw more than a third of its full draw length.
Lots of people hide their mental health issues
It can’t be something that just disqualifies you for chunks of life
Plenty of people will be hiding non-mental health issues because they know it would disqualify them from their job due to the health issue potentially posing a danger to the public. Given that, I'd see no reason to be more accommodating towards hobby gun ownership.
Say what now? Can you find any instances of someone going out with a bow and shooting at people?
Not in the UK, no. But guess where I can?
For a start, nocking an arrow, drawing it and releasing it takes time, unless of course you’re a medieval Welsh archer with a six-foot warbow, who can fire upwards of six a minute, but that’s volley shooting, not precision aiming.
Does it matter how precise it is if its into a crowd? Or just one person. 80ft lb draw is a lot, certainly enough. How many rounds a minute do you think you could get through with a bolt action breech loader or a section 2 shotgun? Probably not much more than your archer tbh.
But it’s a really daft argument to try and make, archery requires skill and a great deal of practice and patience to do well.
And shooting doesn't?
The fact you think shooting is unskilled (or implied as much) is either because you are a sniper god from the boathouse or you've never shot in your life. Find a 10m rifle card, have a look at the scoring then tell me its easy. If you've done archery I'm sure your skill set will come in useful.
Strength comes into it as well, I’ve tried drawing a yew warbow, I couldn’t get it to draw more than a third of its full draw length.
As I remarked on the Olympic topic, a rifle isn't exactly featherweight especially when used in a standing position.
Ultimately you have failed to understand and demonstrated my point well. Bows are many times more powerful than air rifles and yet are unlicensed and seen as civilised because they are shot by athletic skilled types. Guns on the other hand are scary things only used by unskilled nutters and should just be banned. About right? Why? Archery and target shooting are as near as damn it the same in terms of strength, training and discipline. So why is one treated with utter disdain and the other seen as aspirational?
I remember a fair few STWers having an enthusiasm for archery. I wonder how people feel about compound bows and arrows being capable of 7x the legal maximum energy of an air rifle (taking it into FAC territory)? Which works out about half of the energy of a .22 or .32 round (at all but the extreme end of sizing). With absolutely no licensing in place.
But that’s okay because it’s a civilised middle class hobby with none of those “gun nerd” fetishists. Never mind the fact there is no need for a person in the 21st century to own a medieval hunting/fighting weapon capable of killing multiple people at range.
If someone really wanted to they could hurt someone with a bow, but it's most likely to be at short range and unless they are a real practitioner more likely to injure than kill (target v broadhead for starters). They'd better off running up to you and trying to beat you to death with the bow than shoot you with arrows
Compounds are great if you don't have a fast moving target, simply because the whole shooting cycle is pretty ungainly. Sighted can be very accurate, unsighted then it's lots of practice
High powered recurves are capable of taking down a moose but you would need to be close, again a slow or still target, arrow choice matters as it does for compound
Arbalists are different, more akin to rifle shooting, would need to be practiced, arrow choice matters, but you are still relatively close, 60-70m is the max really. Most animal injuries are from arbalists. But they are very slow to shoot
As for middle class, some archery is usually the target variety, they shoot at the same thing constantly. They can put a knitting needle in you at 70m but not much else, field archery tends to be full of pensioners or working class looking for their arrows, warbow lot shoot clout (essentially area shooting) it's very hard to be accurate with their shooting cycle
As for the energy in a single shotgun pellet comparator, the issue is most pellets have friends on a similar trajectory
As for reasons, it's a sport and culture, it's the former national activity and a almost lost part of our history. It's hard to do so idiots get bored and there is little if any issues in real life (arbalists are a different matter). Finally it's fun.
The fact you think shooting is unskilled (or implied as much) is either because you are a sniper god from the boathouse or you’ve never shot in your life. Find a 10m rifle card, have a look at the scoring then tell me its easy. If you’ve done archery I’m sure your skill set will come in useful.
Shooting is easily learnt, I should know I ran enough ranges. Most archers couldn't hit the 100m target that was the closest on the rifle shoot
The archery shooting cycle is completely different, try shooting a bow from prone, when stood up the point of release is the point of maximum tension, the opposite of what you aim to do with a rifle
Bows are many times more powerful than air rifles and yet are unlicensed and seen as civilised because they are shot by athletic skilled types.
You really have never been anywhere near a archery shoot have you
Archery and target shooting are as near as damn it the same in terms of strength, training and discipline.
No they are not
So why is one treated with utter disdain and the other seen as aspirational?
Archery seen as aspirational, LOL
Plenty of people will be hiding non-mental health issues because they know it would disqualify them from their job due to the health issue potentially posing a danger to the public.
Like the guy who wiped bunch of folk out with a bin lorry in Glasgow thanks to an undisclosed heart condition? I seem to remember many calls for better checks between doctors and DVLA and heavy sentencing. And yet...
If only we campaigned as hard against unfit driving,how many threads on here around the infamous discussion with an elderly relative who refuses to give up their licence? Where are the vigils and national newspaper campaigns against those people? Or is it easier to target the "others"? I mean everyone drives don't they? But only a few lonely weirdos shoot, who cares what the statistics say?
I'm not saying its an either or situation,but what I am saying is that people will apologise all day long for poor driving (loss of independence/hardship/etc) and do nothing about it. They will stand and watch as someone loses their ability to safely drive but if that person was shooting in their garden you bet they'd be on the phone.
Yet in this case someone either wasn't, or was ignored. It's tragic, utterly needless but running around pointing at everyone else who shoots doesn't fix ANY of this. We need to be pointing fingers at the ones who cut funding to the police. The ones who cut mental health services. The ones who drive demand for mental health services. We need to be holding all of them accountable. Not a bunch of random other folk who had as much to do with it as you did and are just as horrified by it.
But my response was to someone who maintains that multiple stabbings can’t occur because everyone can just run away from the perpetrator, which is clearly wrong as shown in the links I posted.
That's not what I said at all. That'd be absurd, there's tragic incidences every few months of somone with severe health problems going off the deep end and getting stabby, let alone the more high profile terror things. I said that knives are less leathal than firearms - being able to run away from them is only one reason! I was amused that in the first link that was intended to refute this 'only' two people were *wounded* and *nobody died*.
Could you honestly tell me that if you had the choice, you'd be equally worried to be faced with someone with a shotgun as a with a knife?
Anyway, seems we agree in the end, as theres little need for anyone to have had such a lethal weapon.
If only we campaigned as hard against unfit driving
Can you point me to where people are campaigning hard against current gun licensing as I haven't seen any. It also has nothing to do with driving and what campaigning are you doing against elderly/unfit drivers if that is such a big problem for you?
Events like this just get people like me (no interest in guns and no knowledge of firearm licensing) to look at it and ask some basic questions.
Personally I would still think a sound reason for actually wanting a gun in the first place would make sense. There are not many incidents but I still think a lot of that is luck and probably helped by people not realising how much easier it is to get a gun than they may have thought combined with the fact it is not a very gun loving country.
When the Air Weapon Licence came in up here there were doctors that refused to write a report and PS used that as grounds to refuse a licence
I'm not getting involved in the rest of the post, but if my Doctor was approached (I live in Scotland and have an airgun licence) I'd be surprised, and even more surprised by what they said - as only met them once (about 5 years ago to go over an xray).
I agree – its not just guns and knives – all sorts of weapons are a fetish object to people
Agree, the Santa Cruz ebikes charging up the fireroad at Thornielee yesterday 🙂
Surely the technology exists to have non lethal guns for target shooting. That would also solve the problem of access to shooting ranges.
There are shooting ranges and shooting ranges. Disclaimer - My stepfather is captain of Devon shooting club. I do the occassional shooting and my favourite is 10m air pistol, also clay pigeon (I am hopeless at that!). The technology and kit involved in 22 rifles (which he started shooting at the school range) has much in common with cycling. All that specialist clothing, extra sights, parts, custom stocks... But ultimately, it's putting small projectiles into paper at a (considerable) distance. Quite a skill and very egalitarian. Of course the distances involved (50/100m) require suffcient projectile energy, rather than lasers (which obviously aren't affected by atmospheric conditions). There is also pistol shooting, although this is outlawed in the UK.
I view the Plymouth shootings as a failure of a system that seems to work well. But utterly tragic nevertheless.
Events like this just get people like me (no interest in guns and no knowledge of firearm licensing) to look at it and ask some basic questions.
As should we all be. And if someone was letting of a shotgun in their back garden near me, I'd call 111 immediately. The point about shooting is not what you aim at, it's what's behind it - a train line in the case of my garden.
Nice to see that this thread has descended (entirely predictably) into discussing the relative merits of implements used to kill people, thus missing the point completely.
It's not about HOW he went about killing people we should be looking at, it's WHY?
It's too easy to casually dismiss it as mental illness, but there's much more than that to this event. The person responsible was an adherent to a violent misogynist agenda that is deeply disturbing and growing all the time among disaffected young men who blame women for their own social and sexual failings and alienation, and believe that they have a very worrying entitlement to women, who they seem to regard as property.
Certain smirking shysters like Jordan Peterson are making a nice living lending these violent social misfits an air of legitimacy by offering them easy excuses for their numerous inadequacies. It's not you at fault, it's all the fault of the women who reject you.
The INCEL movement is effectively morphing into a terrorist organisation, if it isn't technically one already. This is not an isolated incident. Its a violent and disturbing ideology that will seek to continue violent actions like this
It’s not about HOW he went about killing people we should be looking at, it’s WHY?
I would say its both. The easier it is made to something the more likely one of these idiots will do it. The guns are the same as a longbow is the standard crap trotted out ignoring the fact that they arent. There is a good reason longbows lost out to even muzzle loaders.
On the other hand yes that Incel movement really is becoming dangerous with multiple mass murders associated with it in the US and Canada. Whilst their sites do get shut down (mostly when they are directly associated with a mass murder) they seem to have plenty left and do seem absolutely poisonous and designed to push people over the edge with the advice being always to blame the other.
Quite frankly you’re being insulting in your assertion that gun ownership is some sort of fetish
For many people, I think he’s absolutely right. You must have come across people who have a Rambo-esq encyclopaedic knowledge of guns and all that does with me is raise a red flag.
I hope that the rest of society agrees with me.
There are still millions of guns in the wild. People like Jeremy Clarkson own shotguns and he’s publicly boasted of wanting to kill people who trespass on his land, along with demonstrating that he’s unable to control his temper.
Surely the technology exists to have non lethal guns for target shooting. That would also solve the problem of access to shooting ranges.
I did this before the pistol ban in the late 90's, didn't know they had came up with an airsoft alternative, it would certainly be cheaper
I’m not getting involved in the rest of the post, but if my Doctor was approached (I live in Scotland and have an airgun licence) I’d be surprised, and even more surprised by what they said – as only met them once (about 5 years ago to go over an xray).
It was a specific section where you had to list any mental health conditions and provide doctors details if it applied. Entirely voluntary. You can see why that is an issue in itself (report honestly, get nothing for it).
For many people, I think he’s absolutely right. You must have come across people who have a Rambo-esq encyclopaedic knowledge of guns and all that does with me is raise a red flag.
Uh huh. What about Shimano groupset numbers? Mini part numbers? Vices? People geek out about all sorts, doesn't make them a problem.
I hope that the rest of society agrees with me.
I don't. Because if you ban one thing people obsess over (unobtainable weapons) you have to ban them all on the same merit. How about the ones that fancy themselves as an F1 driver with full VR driving rigs, obviously can't be trusted with a driving licence.
Can you point me to where people are campaigning hard against current gun licensing
See above. Also note I said as hard, it was a comparison, not quantification. I also said it needn't be an either/or thing. My point was that as a society we get completely bogged down on a handful of deaths (33 for 2019) from a heavily licenced section of society (despite what you believe) whilst ignoring something else that literally kills thousands (1752 road deaths for the same year).
Have a reread of the “everyday carry knives” thread Its full of this
My guess is its normalised for you so you do not notice it
Well since I can't see it you'll have to show me some examples. Personally I'm looking forward to your fetishisation of multi tools, pens and torches. They're rather boring otherwise.
You really have never been anywhere near a archery shoot have you
Try reading it again in the sarcastic tone in which it was wrote 😉
Nice to see that this thread has descended (entirely predictably) into discussing the relative merits of implements used to kill people, thus missing the point completely.
Oh NOW you want to have a grown up discussion, done with gun safes on council estates are we? Nice view up on your horse?
Anyway...
Everything you said has been said before but its worth repeating if only to get this back on track. As I said before, we should be pointing fingers at those that enabled us to get to this point, you can add your incels and grifters to my list.
Oh NOW you want to have a grown up discussion, done with gun safes on council estates are we? Nice view up on your horse
Well it sure beats thwapping off about firearms, Rambo
Binners - thats a little uncalled for
Squirrelking does not appear to be a Walt
Well since I can’t see it you’ll have to show me some examples
A good few on this current thread. see if you can spot the ones with a fetish about knives
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/knives-multitools-and-other-edc-thread/
I wasnt familiar with this whole incel culture. Truly fascinating..
Basically it strikes me as a load of really sad blokes sticking their hands up and admitting they're a total loser that cant get laid...
Probably while jerking off frantically in their mums basement
Why would anyone be so willing to associate themselves with that culture??
Basically it strikes me as a load of really sad blokes sticking their hands up and admitting they’re a total loser that cant get laid…
Probably while jerking off frantically in their mums basement
Why would anyone be so willing to associate themselves with that culture??
Because it gives them support? Because they don't know how to find a way out? Because it is how they can help to identify what is 'wrong' with them?
Are you totally without empathy?
Why would anyone be so willing to associate themselves with that culture??
Because it allows them to blame other people - namely women - for the fact that they lack even the most rudimentary social skills to coexist with the rest of society, particularly the female part of it. It tells them that they are entitled to have sex with women and women should just accept that and give in to their demands. Its little more than justification for violence against women as cover for their own inadequacies
And they have a champion in Jordon Peterson who poses as an intellectual to add credibility to their ridiculous violent misogyny.
Until recently we had one of his fan bois on this forum (now thankfully banned) who posted up all his misogynistic crap and defended it as an actual justified argument. To say that he had his own 'issues' with women would be understating things massively.
Rather than a discussion about weaponry, I think it's pretty much agreed that "relatively" easy access to weaponry of any sort will result in unnecessary death. I'm not one for banning guns per se, and I think calling each other names for wanting to shoot recreationally is probably unlikely to resolve much
Once again I think we (as a community) need to make sure that folk who've domestic violence charges against them, recent mental health issues, and drugs use/abuse shouldn't have access to guns, that seems at the very least moderate thing we should do. I think on the whole we get it right in the UK however the "weaponisation of unreality" (the Incel Movement for example) on line is going to cause more and more of these sorts of folk who're becoming dangerously detached from an agreed reality and society, our priority ought to be there rather than how easy it is to kill some-one with a car/bow and arrow/gun
Basically it strikes me as a load of really sad blokes sticking their hands up and admitting they’re a total loser that cant get laid…
No it's entirely 180degs the opposite of that. It's blokes sitting in their basements agreeing that if it wasn't for feminism or any other other -ism you want...they would have got laid by now. It's not them, it's other folk.
shouldn’t have access to guns
And those of us that do have access to guns, shouldn't have them sitting at home in a residential area. Yes, people have made it clear that it is inconvenient to have to keep your gun at a secure location away from your neighbours and family, and that those locations might become a target for criminals... but ultimately, even as someone who used to shoot targets competitively in my youth, with family members involved in game shooting... I do not want my "seemingly stable" neighbour armed at home. Full stop.
Bows are many times more powerful than air rifles and yet are unlicensed and seen as civilised because they are shot by athletic skilled types. Guns on the other hand are scary things only used by unskilled nutters and should just be banned. About right? Why? Archery and target shooting are as near as damn it the same in terms of strength, training and discipline. So why is one treated with utter disdain and the other seen as aspirational?
Because bows and arrows don't occupy a lot of consciousness in this society's psyche, so nutters don't fantasise about offering their enemies (usually women and children) with crossbows.
And those of us that do have access to guns, shouldn’t have them sitting at home in a residential area.
If you're well controlling who has access to very dangerous weaponry, then it shouldn't matter where they keep them, as they'll be responsible about it. Look, there's no doubt that if he had not had ready access to a shotgun, he might well have set about with a cleaver, or driven a car trough the shopping mall. The danger here isn't what they use, but why are they thinking about using it in the first place.
Once again we need to look at what this guys was doing online Most (if not all) organisations who have an interest in doing so have looked at the Russian Bot Farms successes and are busily copying them, and that's far right groups, domestic terrorists, Incels, climate denying, you name it, if you really want to you can live pretty much in an entirely different world to the rest of us that has it's own truths and realities. Our world and that world can't exist at the same time in the same place...This guy' s just one more of these folks who decided to act on it, he won't be the last.
Why would anyone be so willing to associate themselves with that culture??
Because its one where they can be honest rather than lying to people about whether they got a shag last weekend or not and being pitied if they are found out?
Its worth noting originally it was supposed to be for both men and women (indeed traces back to a female student) and was about providing support to those feeling isolated.
It got corrupted over time though into the poisonous group we see today. The problem is it seems ideally designed to suck people in bit by bit pushing them down the rabbit hole.
Look, there’s no doubt that if he had not had ready access to a shotgun, he might well have set about with a cleaver, or driven a car trough the shopping mall. The danger here isn’t what they use, but why are they thinking about using it in the first place.
Wrong on two counts. He waited until he got his gun back and as above - the less lethal the weapon the less deaths
Basically it strikes me as a load of really sad blokes sticking their hands up and admitting they’re a total loser that cant get laid…
No it’s entirely 180degs the opposite of that. It’s blokes sitting in their basements agreeing that if it wasn’t for feminism or any other other -ism you want…they would have got laid by now. It’s not them, it’s other folk.
It’s far more complex and sinister than that though. Ironically ‘incel’ was a word originally created by a lonely woman
When Alana started a website for lonely people struggling to find love, she had no idea it would become linked to a community of hate and anger directed at women, which would ultimately lead to the deaths of several innocent people in her home city
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45284455
.
‘Incel’ has since been co-opted by a whole spectrum of misanthropic/nihilistic/misogynistic/suicidal/terroristic online subculture/s. Ie ‘Redpilled, Blackpilled, etc.
Internet-addicted subcultures such as these can ‘feed’ loneliness and mental illness while also preying on the lonely and mentally ill. Catch 22
as some kind of a misogynistic and misanthropic pseudoscience
My point entirely. More and more people around the world are leaving an agreed reality and are living almost entirely in an alternate universe.
If you’re well controlling who has access to very dangerous weaponry
People change. People lie. People get hurt. People get damaged. People get angry.
it shouldn’t matter where they keep them
Of course it does. If it is illegal to take your firearm in to a residential area, your home or otherwise, that allows an intervention before a shooting in a residential area. Anyone taking their gun home is immediately seen as a concern and that could be acted on, rather than the "what a shame" response to someone using their gun to kill people in a residential area.
My point was that as a society we get completely bogged down on a handful of deaths (33 for 2019) from a heavily licenced section of society (despite what you believe)
The society I live in (in the UK) is hardly bogged down by gun deaths, it only comes up in a once in a decade event like this one.
As for heavily licensed - yes you need a license, but that license is easy to get - too easy in my opinion.
And yes, car deaths are higher but this is not a discussion about car deaths. Maybe you should start one and link to all the campaigning you have done on it.
Not necessarily
You miss the broader point. Again
No, you (deliberately?) miss the point. Again. No-one is saying if all guns are banned then no-one will ever kill anyone. What people are saying is that the easier guns are to access, and the more suited to mass murder guns are compared to longbows or tandems, then the more likely it is that unstable people will commit mass murder on a larger scale.
It's striking that you pick on the Nice murders and not the Bataclan murders - possibly because the contrast dispoves your point. The easier it is for evil or mad people to get guns, the easier it is for them to kill more people.
Are you totally without empathy?
From what I can tell binners sums these folks up pretty well..
Because it allows them to blame other people – namely women – for the fact that they lack even the most rudimentary social skills to coexist with the rest of society, particularly the female part of it. It tells them that they are entitled to have sex with women and women should just accept that and give in to their demands. Its little more than justification for violence against women as cover for their own inadequacies
So to answer your question...very little empathy towards people like that I'm afraid..
I'll reserve my empathy for those I think deserve it..
Anyone taking their gun home is immediately seen as a concern and that could be acted on, rather than the “what a shame” response to someone using their gun to kill people in a residential area.
If we had many shooting incidents, you might have a point. But we don't. The vast vast majority of people that own guns (for any reason they want to*) are decent people that understand their responsibilities. The last mass shooting was a decade ago. We don't have a problem with guns in this country, we have a problem with looking after people who're ill and need support
* That there is a legal, largely workable and enforceable method for folks to own guns or other weaponry is "a civic good" At the very least it demonstrates that our govt is willing to give it's citizens the benefit of the doubt. You should as well.
nickc - that does not mean that there is no need to tighten controls. I see zero need for anyone to have a gun in a residential area and obviously the checks and balances are inadequate
Pwersonally I would ban all guns of any sort except for genuine utility uses - farmers etc but I know that would have little support
If you want to target shoot then an airgun will do you fine.
Wrong on two counts. He waited until he got his gun back and as above – the less lethal the weapon the less deaths
****ing hell, i walked away from this post as it was giving me a sore head and briefly came back this morning, but clearly I can't keep my gob shut.
Is it completely impossible for you to see anyone elses point of view for even a second without resorting to "I'm cleverer than you" comments. Would the guy have committed the same amount or murders with a cleaver or a car? maybe. Can you kill as many people with a car or cleaver (or other bladed weapon)? Yes, see most terror attacks using a car/van/small truck and or knife. Would he have done it without access to a shotgun? maybe not, because we don't live in the alternative flaming dimension that you clearly have access to.
We get it, you are 100% anti-gun in all forms. There have been a lot of opposing opinions around this, mine included, and I am not 100% right or even feel 100% justified in my feelings on the matter, but whatever I say or think i would hope that I was big enough and ugly enough to at least to be open to changing my mind or seeing someone elses point of view.
I liked shooting, I was good at it, at a national level, and I was gutted when they took away my hobby, there's still a part of my that is because I've found nothing since that has given me anywhere near the same level of enjoyment that standing in a pissing wet field putting holes in paper targets gave me, call me weird or a fantasist, but hey, maybe that's what I am. It wasn't me who ruined it, or shot anyone, or threatened to shoot anyone, but I and other people who enjoyed their hobby had to give it up whether they liked it or not because someone decided in their head to go out and kill people because they were pissed off at the world about something that could have probably been fixed, but if they wanted to kill people or not, they would have done it by any means necessary whether they had access to guns legally or they didn't.
I hope that someday someone doesn't take away something you like, because we'll never hear the ****ing end of it
I see zero need for anyone to have a gun in a residential area and obviously the checks and balances are inadequate
No one cares whether or not you don't see the need for (anyone) to own a gun, it's literally none of your business. Personally I don't think the checks are adequate to single out the folk still listening to prog rock, but mleh.... At some point you've got to be able to say "As a group of adults we have to come up with a system that allows folks to do legally stuff that some others don't personally agree with"
Otherwise you may as well give up now and have anarchy.
I see zero need for anyone to have a gun in a residential area
I agree 100%. The inconvenience of having to keep your gun secure and away from residential areas seems a small price to pay to enjoy your sport, or your game shooting, or for your work in pest control or culling.
Another aspect that I don't think has been covered, but I wonder if is relevant. This guy, mentally ill as he was, incel driven, all of those things. He'd decided to end his life. But he was basically so angry that he wanted to do this first.
Once he went out and started shooting people it was virtually inevitable it would end with his death too, either at his own hands or at the hands of the firearms response team. With a knife, or even a car, far more likely he'd have been stopped by non-lethal means and right now be facing an even more miserable existence locked up for the rest of his life. As others have noted it's hard to put a knife in someone, I suspect even harder to put it repeatedly in yourself.
Lots of drama here with no substance. There is no need to store any gun away from home and there is zero harm in having one at home regardless of where you live.
They have to be securely stored and very little gun thefts from homes shows this works.
Define residential area for a start.
If you could not store a gun at home this shooting would not have occured
There is no need to store any gun away from home and there is zero harm in having one at home regardless of where you live.
whatiffery but Davison rolls up to his shooting club asking to get his gun out of the locker in an absolute rage, and with no good reason, the armourer simply says no?
If the journey to the club hasn't already lowered his anger level?
If you could not store a gun at home this shooting would not have occured
That's utter garbage.
If you want to target shoot then an airgun will do you fine.
Which incidentally are harder to get a licence* for than a shotgun.
* to own an airgun in Scotland requires a licence, for this licence you have to demonstrate a 'need' for one and that you've a 'place' to shoot. Plus be of good character etc, for a shotgun licence you only need the 'character' bit.
whatiffery but Davison rolls up to his shooting club asking to get his gun out of the locker in an absolute rage, and with no good reason, the armourer simply says no?
Naive to say the least.
How about, he rolls up quite calmly and signs a gun out ten drives a few miles and gets out and shoots folk.
What part of the report said he ran about in a rage ??
Talk about whatiffery.
https://unherd.com/2021/08/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-incels/
A more nuanced view, still doesn't change the tragedy. The issue with these things is that press like a simple story, the Sophie Lancaster murder wasn't really about anti goth sentiment https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/robert-maltby-on-the-of-his-girlfriend-sophie-lancaster-the-goth-thing-was-an-oversimplification
Would the guy have committed the same amount or murders with a cleaver or a car? maybe.
You can't say anything about this murderer in particular but as a general proposition, sure: prospective murderers go on to commit fewer murders when they have less access to guns.