[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

I made chilli last night, after partaking in this thread yesterday I thought I'd try to semi replace the meat in it, made about twice as much as normal with the usual amount of mince, added in more onions, peppers, tomatoes, kidney beans, spices and lobbed in some sweetcorn and mushrooms as I had some to hand.

Tasted like padded out chilli, the mouthfuls that contained meat were lovely, the ones that didn't were nice and spicy and flavorsome but just not quite there 🙁
But I guess like the irish directions joke, I'm not starting from the right point. Meat filled dishes are the staple and everything gets compared to that. Ho hum.

If you want recipes you only need to ask 😉

IN all seriousness [ for one post anyway] it took me a long time to get used to eating veg rather than meat or meat type dishes and you just need to actually eat different food/have a different diet

I do think that the flavour of meat is so strong [ and tasty to be fair] that you need to take some time to educate your palate...in my case years.

WHilst there is some delicious food out there that is vegan no one is going to give up a bacon butty to eat a cous cous salad on taste grounds.

Given so much [traditional]indian food is meat free I would imagine that is a better place to start
What about veggie soups?
Cakes plenty of those are veggie

D0NK - Member

I made chilli last night...

veggie chilli is one of my staples, and i'm not even a vegetarian.

kidney beans, green lentils, and a handfull of (frozen) peas* when it's nearly ready, and there's plenty of 'substance' to keep it satisfying.

(along with the onion, peppers, courgette - which all turn a bit mushy after a good simmer)

(*might just be me, but they seem to offer a nice contrast against a good hot smokey flavour)

serve with chips/wedges/jackets, not rice.

you need to take some time to educate your palate...in my case years

Indian may be a better shout, like I said did give it a go but it wasn't quite right. Need to learn to cook some proper nice dal (dhal?). I do a few nominally veg soups which are good but a lot contain meat stock or some dairy. It's mainly the health reasons I want to replace some of the meat I eat rather than moral ones 😉

*admittedly half arsed

serve with chips/wedges/jackets, not rice.

and it turns out i have no maximum limit on dahl.

(interesting fact about dahl: there are more recipes for dahl than the number of humans that have ever lived, almost all of them are jolly tasty.)

I made chilli last night, after partaking in this thread yesterday I thought I'd try to semi replace the meat in it, made about twice as much as normal with the usual amount of mince, added in more onions, peppers, tomatoes, kidney beans, spices and lobbed in some sweetcorn and mushrooms as I had some to hand.

Any particular reason you wouldn't just replace the mince with veggie mince (not quorn, that's horrible, go for supermarket own brand veggie mince)? IMO chilli without some form of mince is just spicy tomato soup. I've come across people using lentils instead of mince but I can't stand lentils so avoid them.

But I guess like the irish directions joke, I'm not starting from the right point. Meat filled dishes are the staple and everything gets compared to that. Ho hum.

Not really, there are plenty of vegetarian dishes that stand on their own. I can't imagine tucking into shakshuka and wanting meat in it or a veg curry and wanting chicken. We're not vegetarians but we eat very little meat and generally only at the weekend (we have leftover chicken and salami this week though... I have great sandwiches). We do eat a fair bit of fish and I'd wrestle a bear before giving up cheese though.

Basically I think people have problems with the labelling of diets, it instantly makes them sound a bit "other" and even a bit evangelical in a way that just saying "I don't really eat meat" doesn't.

Plus i don't think its 100% possible to avoid products that use animal products. So where do they stand then.

we do what we can.

but thanks for your concern.

dazh - Member
I can't stand lentils so avoid them.

red lentils can add an odd 'gritty' texture, so i wrote off lentils for years.

dark green/speckled lentils don't turn to mush - there's something left to 'chew', and have a subtle peppery flavour, a bit like bay leaves.

i reckon they're bloody great in a chilli. I even add them to our occasional non-veggie chillies.

I can't imagine tucking into shakshuka and wanting meat in it

or a veg curry and wanting chicken.

*looks like a damn fine breakfast too (link I saw said it's an israel breakfast dish), not sure I'd be able to convince the rest of the family to replace their shreddies with it tho 🙂

<edit> just noticed the comments on [url= http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1014721-shakshuka-with-feta ]this[/url] shaksuka recipe page (first google hit) lots of people suggesting adding bacon/meat to it 😉

I was talking hypothetically.

Hereafter simply referred as the Cardiff Defence

Curries are definitely a great place to start for non-meat dishes. When I ate meat I didn't like curries, but became a huge fan once I'd turned veggie. It just seemed to work better.

Middle Eastern stuff is also a really good option for veggie stuff (if you can get past the kebab thing) with stuff like mezze, falafel, halloumi (if you're eating cheese) etc.

Generally I find any type of 'foreign' food to be more interesting for veggie stuff.

Generally I find any type of 'foreign' food to be more interesting for veggie stuff.

When I ate meat I didn't like curries, but became a huge fan once I'd turned veggie. It just seemed to work better.

Agreed - never been really happy with a veg dish unless it's chilli, bean or curry related.

<edit> just noticed the comments on this shaksuka recipe page (first google hit) lots of people suggesting adding bacon/meat to it

It really doesn't need it - I use [url= http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/apr/16/yotam-ottolenghi-shakshuka-recipe ]Ottolenghi's recipe[/url], and it's pretty close to perfect as is. It takes bloody ages to cook, though - if you do want to have it as a breakfast / brunch type meal I'd suggest precooking the sauce, then when you want to eat you just need to get it up to heat before adding the eggs.

Obviously not vegan, though 🙂

Other veg stuff we have a lot that doesn't leave me wanting meat - not even close to being vegan though:
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/mar/03/world-pancake-recipe-okonomiyaki-japan ]Okonomiaki[/url]
[img] [/img]

[url= http://hostthetoast.com/zucchini-feta-spinach-fritters-garlic-tzatziki/ ]Courgette and Feta Fritters[/url]
[img] ?resize=670%2C1011[/img]

[url= http://ediblephilly.com/recipes/entrees/spaetzle-with-asparagus-gouda-and-ramp-hazelnut-pesto/ ]Spaetzle with Asparagus, Gouda and Hazelnut Pesto[/url]
[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/02/cauliflower-cake-recipe-yotam-ottolenghi ]Cauliflower "Cake"[/url]
[img] [/img]

Plus endless salads, roasted veg dishes and so on...

Edit: just realised the Okonomiyaki has fish flakes on. We usually use seaweed.

Yet the vegans still feel the need to post pictures and videos of animals suffering in a graphic way blah blah blah...

They're vegans in the same way ISIS are muslims, they're an extreme minority. Most vegans are probably as tired of them as the omnivores, I for one am weary of being tarred with the same brush (as demonstrated repeatedly on this thread).

dark green/speckled lentils don't turn to mush - there's something left to 'chew', and have a subtle peppery flavour, a bit like bay leaves.

i reckon they're bloody great in a chilli

+1. All lentils are not the same.

Vegan chilli? Also not a vegan yet love food - spent ages perfecting a vegan chilliI to enjoy with better half.

Much care and prep making a tasty sauce with fresh toms, proper smoked paprika or mesquite, good dried chilli peppers (toasted in pan then steeped to make a stock to add to sauce), plenty fresh garlic, chopped sweet peppers, fresh oregano and ground cumin seeds, tom puree, some water to adjust consistency, simmer until delicious. Add sugar or something sweet to taste, add seasoning.

Then use a good veggie stock with yeast/B12 flakes for the lentils which cook separately in that stock first, add fave beans (I use red kidney and haricot) . A little marmite, a little mustard - and (for the nice bite and fill) stir in some cooked pearl barley, combine all simmer for a while, then stuff face with crushed tortilla chips on top. (Salivating now)

It's what we're having tomorrow, yum.

Never thought to use barley in - well, anything if I'm honest. Does it work well, then?

its ok* think of a cross between a bean and massive cous cous

* IMHO all carns taste of basically nothing ALso used to make

Never thought to use barley in - well, anything if I'm honest. Does it work well, then?

I don't think so... I would make that without them.

Barley-wise: Not vegan though easy to adapt (contains feta) but we really like this: http://kahakaikitchen.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/barley-risotto-with-marinated-feta-by.html
[img] [/img]

Never thought to use barley in - well, anything if I'm honest. Does it work well, then?

Yep. Taste of nothing really, adds carbs and bulk and a really nice texture that goes well on its own, or as I use in mince recipes along with either TVP or lentils.

Just remembered had a nice barley/tarragon risotto recently. Albeit with fresh mackerel. Could be adapted with mushrooms, seaweed etc.

*EDIT ^. I forgot the diced onions in my chilli mole/sauce recipe. So - diced onions and oil to start. Dark chocolate is a good addition too. Have even put coffee in.

Anyone got any red dragon pie recipes? Friends cooked us one once and it really was good. Addictively so 😈

We use pearl barley in our vege chillies, have done for years, it gives a good texture to the meal. there are various other grains that work quite well in soups as well, cracked wheat, ebly, etc.
Its only in the last couple of months that I've cooked meat at home, after herself decided that business travel to foreign countries was so getting her down - cheese omelette and fries every night for 3 weeks does tend to make you go slightly mad - and so has started in a limited way to eat meat. 95% of what we prepare and cook at home is still vegetarian though, just that maybe once a fortnight we'll have something meat based.

A cafe style place near us does fantastic meat curries but atleast half of their stuff is veggie, I'll have to give a few of them a go. I shall try to go into it with an open mind.

Before moving we used a local Indian restaurant (Vasai, Malvern Link) that offered many veggie and vegan options. Speaking as the meat-eating half of a marriage I'd always taste her order to see what it was about. There is one dish named 'vegetable chilli garlic'. Holy crap I would hurt someone to get my hands on that recipe. It became my staple, yes, even tastier than any meat curry I've ever eaten - incredibly rich, hot, satisfying, and with a peculiar gunpowder taste that was/is completely addictive. Have tried to replicate, failed many times, spent hrs online to no avail. I need to grab a few and freeze them when next visiting family. Think the chef would give me the recipe? What are the chances? The thought of possibly never tasting it again makes a small part of me die inside.

Disclaimer - this is not advertising copy, taste is subjective etc...

vegans or religous nuts. I'd struggle who to shoot first. I really don't care what people eat but I can't be arsed with all the shite they have to tell you about.

I suggest you read the rest of the thread to irk out which side of the fence has been the most preachy. STW imitates life, or something. But thank you for your useful and insightful contribution.

why?

He was politely saying you were wrong as the meat eaters were preachy and the vegans said eat what you want

I am very surprised to discover that you dont want to let the facts get in the way of your hatred nor do you want to reduce your stupidity

Do trolls eat meat or do they survive just on the attention?

Trolls eat Christians, don't they?

Nicely completes the circle 🙂

😆

STW imitates life, or something

In many years of being vegan, no one's ever threatened to shoot me for it so I guess you're wrong on that 🙂

Neither do newborn human babies, yet quite rightly we don't kill and eat them.

They're little different to unborn babies then - but we kill those and I'm pretty sure you would support abortion.

They're little different to unborn babies then - but we kill those and I'm pretty sure you would support abortion.

I never quite understand the obsession with abortion of meat eaters who feel the need to deconstruct other people's eating habits. Is it because you're so desperate to have a go that you'll use any avenue of argument available irrespective of how silly it is? Just what is it about what we eat that annoys you so much? It's genuinely baffling.

I never quite understand the obsession with abortion of meat eaters who feel the need to deconstruct other people's eating habits. Is it because you're so desperate to have a go that you'll use any avenue of argument available irrespective of how silly it is? Just what is it about what we eat that annoys you so much? It's genuinely baffling.

I just have a psychotic dislike for double standards/poor logic. It annoys me on a deeply personal level, like someone dragging their finger nails across a blackboard.

Either kill things based on their level of conciousness or don't kill anything at all.

Is it because you're so desperate to have a go that you'll use any avenue of argument available irrespective of how silly it is?

Because sometimes, reducto ad absurdum is a very good way of highlighting the central tenants of an argument.

Yeah, it's odd. I've just realised, I generally tell people I'm veggie not because I want it debating but because I [i]don't[/i] want a lengthy discussion.

Back when I was a kid, I'd often be offered food by well-meaning parents who wouldn't take "no thanks" as an answer presumably because they thought I was just being polite. It's ok, it's no trouble, are you absolutely sure, everyone else is having one, I can do you a bacon buttie, etc etc whilst I was sitting there in a panic and wondering how I can get away from the stench of frying flesh without offending anyone.

As an adult, "no thanks, I'm veggie" curtails that line of discourse but often ends up with the person I'm talking to launching into a monologue about how much they love meat and how they could never be a vegetarian and so forth. I really don't get it either, I'm not expecting anyone else to do anything they don't want to do and couldn't care less what anyone else eats, I just want to get on with having my lunch in peace.

Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they're getting in the first punch, or what? Very confusing. Some folk are genuinely interested and that's absolutely fine, and I'm happy to discuss it with people who want to know more (as per the OP), but some just seem hell bent on point-scoring about how wrong I am, usually with some broken logic about how we're 'supposed' to eat meat or something.

Because sometimes, reducto ad absurdum is a very good way of highlighting the central tenants of an argument.

Only if the only options are binary, otherwise it's a very good way of highlighting your own ignorance. By that argument, if we eat lamb then we should either also eat kittens, cockroaches and each other, or take up a raw food diet.

Well, if you told people you were a scientologist or had converted to Islam then you'd get the same reaction.

People ask questions and challenge each others views all the time, you can't expect to go through life without people questioning your choices.

Only if the only options are binary, otherwise it's a very good way of highlighting your own ignorance. By that argument, if we eat lamb then we should either also eat kittens, cockroaches and each other, or take up a raw food diet.

I've not got an issue with people eating kittens, the only reason we don't is that people in the west have humanised them/value them as pets.

Eating each other can be dismissed from a utilitarian perspective, it wouldn't be very good for society. Killing kittens isn't going to cause western society to turn into Papua New Guinea.

Holoumi, i can't spell it. but gosh that stuff's delicious.

i'm not a vegetarian, but i'll take Hollumi over bacon any day.

(under the grill, and when you think it's done, just give it another minute or so)

Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they're getting in the first punch, or what?

Well, a lot of veggies are on moral grounds. A lot of meat eaters love meat so they assume all veggies are doing so on moral grounds. So that sets up an unintended conflict between the veggie and the meat eater.

A lot of people are insecure in one way or another, and conflict and competition run throughout many people's lives - people are always trying to put each other down, so the reaction to this is to compete to put yourself back up and the other person down. Of course, social niceties mean that this is usually not overt, and within families and friends it's often completely un-noticed by anyone, including the people themselves. Which is why you get small scale passive-aggressive behaviour so often in workplaces and so on.

So when someone says something that could be considered morally superior, people react by justifying their own perceived inferior position, or trying to reduce the perceived superior position. So it's either effusing as to why they eat meat, or it's criticising vegeterianism. See this thread 😉

It also happens when you tell people you don't drink, if you pick up a plastic bottle and look for a recycling bin, sometimes when you arrive in a Prius. You get either people being apologetic about their gas guzzler; people mocking you accusing you of thinking you're saving the world when you're not; or people telling you how they are in fact worse for the environment than a Hummer. See STW for many examples of that too 🙂

Well, if you told people you were a scientologist or had converted to Islam then you'd get the same reaction.

So?

Eating each other can be dismissed from a utilitarian perspective, it wouldn't be very good for society.

Not even if they were free range people who'd been bred specifically for the purpose, wouldn't have been born otherwise, fed on healthy organic feed, lived a happy if short life and were slaughtered humanely? What's the problem? They wouldn't know any different. We could even hang the brown ones up by their ankles and slit their throats in the traditional manner.

[i]I just have a psychotic dislike for double standards/poor logic[/i]

Have you missed all the posts telling you that not all veggies choose not to eat meat for the same reason?

A lot of people are insecure in one way or another,

You may well be right there. At the risk of making a rash generalisation, perhaps a lot of people do things because they always have and don't give it much thought. I'd hazard, as a random example, that there will be a much higher percentage of religious types who have been brought up by religious parents than those who convert / see the light in adulthood. I doubt there aren't many Sikhs whose parents were devout Muslims.

Many (though clearly not all!) meat eaters will have been brought up that way and perhaps never given it a second thought, it's just the way of the world in the same way that our culture dictates that it's perfectly normal to eat lambs and abhorrent to eat kittens; whereas most veggies / vegans will have thought a lot about it and consciously made a perhaps difficult lifestyle change. So then when folk are unexpectedly made to consider something about themselves they see it as a challenge / threat and get defensive. Maybe.

Who knows, maybe all that red meat makes people more aggressive. (-:

Junkyard - lazarus

He was politely saying you were wrong as the meat eaters were preachy and the vegans said eat what you want

like I said I don't care if you are a meat eater, a non meat eater, a vegan or some other type of eater. Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me (goes for meat eaters too).

[quote=ahwiles ]Holoumi, i can't spell it. but gosh that stuff's delicious.
i'm not a vegetarian, but i'll take Hollumi over bacon any day.

Interesting. Halloumi I think. Not terribly helpful for vegans though.

[quote=Tom_W1987 ]I've not got an issue with people eating kittens, the only reason we don't is that people in the west have humanised them/value them as pets.

So do you eat kittens? You seem happy enough to throw around the hypocrite argument because some other people don't eat all the food options available to them. Yet it seems neither do you.

Still wondering what kittens taste like.

[quote=poah ]Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

I'd appreciate a link or a quote to the people doing that on this thread so that I can tell them off - I also find that irritating.

Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they're getting in the first punch, or what?

Plus what Molly said (good post) I was going to say something about that but I think he has covered it better than I would.

So then when folk are unexpectedly made to consider something about themselves they see it as a challenge / threat and get defensive

It's not even that complicated. People *subconscously* see it as you saying you're morally superior to them.

This behaviour is absolutely endemic in society, by the way - not deliberately, in most cases I'm sure. It's just how people are brought up. Perhaps a sociologist or psychologist can come to the thread and give it a name?

Still wondering what kittens taste like.

Still wondering what kittens taste like.

It's like a mix of frog and chicken.

So then when folk are unexpectedly made to consider something about themselves they see it as a challenge / threat and get defensive. Maybe.

I'll probably be accused of sitting on a high horse here, but it's probably because they are insecure about their own eating habits as deep down they probably agree with the vegetarian but can't bring themselves to make the lifestyle change required. No one likes being confronted by uncomfortable truths, even passively.

I often find that those who doth protest too much, are those who are most conflicted. It's funny because whenever I've encountered people who work in the farming or meat industries, they tend to be the people I get least hassle from. The explanation for this probably being that they don't harbour any guilt or insecurity about their own eating habits, so don't feel the need to go on the defensive.

it's probably because they are insecure about their own eating habits as deep down they probably agree with the vegetarian

In this particular case, it's possibly because they don't like killing animals and have pushed it to the back of their mind as they munch on delicious bacon. So yeah quite possibly.

but it's probably because they are insecure about their own eating habits as deep down they probably agree with the vegetarian but can't bring themselves to make the lifestyle change required.

It may not be the intention but I'm sure you can see how it can be taken as such.

(I'm quite happy being amoral pondlife, I'd quite happily kill cook eat given the opportunity - and have done - but like I said feel I should probably eat less meat for health reasons and can see/agree a lot of valid points for going veggie/vegan)

I've also had similar when people excuse themselves for a smoke. They get all ashamed about it cos they're told it's wrong all the time. They wouldn't do it if you went with them to smoke.

I've even seen it when you have something health for lunch and they come back with sausage and chips.

(under the grill, and when you think it's done, just give it another minute or so)

This can be improved! Dredge the cheese in semolina first and shallow fry it. Serve it with warm honey and toasted sesame seeds. I would happily eat this ever single day.

Cougar - Moderator

....Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they're getting in the first punch, or what? Very confusing

Maybe a little insight to how the forum people of faith feel whenever the gobby atheists kick off, might even help your moderating skills 😉

Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

Does that happen to you a lot? Or have you just made it up in order to sound like you have a point?

for most people it's seems a very strange choice so I think many are genuinely interested and wondering why. Despite knowing that it's a pet peeve for most, sometimes I still can't help asking vegan people "well what about animal X in situation Y, would you eat that?", in that case I'm not trying to trick them or call hypocrite I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

Oh, sure. And I mentioned that in my previous post I think. I totally understand why someone would want to know more when presented with something they don't understand. Gets a bit tedious after a while when you're having the same conversation twice a week with different people (eg, communal eating areas at work) but mostly it's something I'm happy to talk about. It's when folk launch into what a massive mistake I've just made that I want to give up being veggie so that I can eat my own spleen.

And to answer my own question, "does that actually happen", it does. Most people don't really care beyond passing interest or making conversation, but every now and then you get someone who has been saving up all their arguments ready for this special moment.

I guarantee there are more preachy omnivores than preachy vegetarians simply because Maths. For a start meat eaters are a large majority, and also they hardly ever have to bring up in casual conversation that actually they do eat meat and thus risk sparking an argument.

Feel free to prove me wrong but I simply don't accept that there are that many preachy veggies; they're a minority within a minority and - I'll let you into a little secret - most veggies probably hate them more than you do because they're giving us a bad name.

Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

As for evangalising this is how it goes

Get a brew at someones house or out or at work. I ask for soya milk - they almost never have it- or have no milk

Person asks me why I dont have milk or why i asked for soya

I say I am vegan
they ask me why or what I eat

I am now evangalising and throwing it at them and preaching.

Person offers me food - I day what is it?
I either say no and look potentially rude or say sorry I cannot eat that. they then ask why? I am now preaching again.

Its pretty hard to avoid saying it as think how often you eat something!

No one wants to hear anyone evangalis about anything - it why we only talk about bikes to other cyclists as it bores the shit put of everyone else - but folk probably think you are evangelising when you say you commute by bike to work
PersonallY I love preachy veggies because they are easy to wind up and the ace up the sleeve of being a vegan is a nice one to unleash 15 minutes into the debate. The diet equivalent of only owning one bike or only riding trail centres 😛

Hmm, I can't think of any 'campaigning organisations' for meat eating that send letter bombs to mushroom farms or hold protests at the docks opposing long distance banana tranport.

Gets a bit tedious after a while when you're having the same conversation twice a week with different people

[quote=ninfan opined]Hmm, I can't think of any 'campaigning organisations' for meat eating that send letter bombs to mushroom farms or hold protests at the docks opposing long distance banana tranport.

You need the countryside lobby for that sort of crazy shit as each community has their extremists eh 😛

Maybe a little insight to how the forum people of faith feel whenever the gobby atheists kick off, might even help your moderating skills

Yeah, the irony isn't lost on me. I've used, I think being veggie as an analogy on some of the, ah, 'theological debates' previously. I do at least [i]try [/i]not to be hypocritical. (-:

Not sure how that has anything to do with moderating though. From a moderation standpoint, I try to be impartial and will moderate personal attacks but not differences of opinion (and having an opinion that someone is an arsehole is not a loophole!). Censorship is a slippery slope. But please don't confuse / conflate that with my personal opinions and debating style as a user, the two are separate (I try to explicitly differentiate <mod> comments, when I remember).

Hmm, I can't think of any 'campaigning organisations' for meat eating that send letter bombs to mushroom farms or hold protests at the docks opposing long distance banana tranport.

You are aware of the concept of "extremists" and how they don't generally represent the views and desires of the majority they claim to represent, yes? I've explained this on this very thread at least three times now, possibly more, so either you've got your browser set to write-only again or you're trolling.

Here's a handy link, it might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremism

I'll let you into a little secret - most veggies probably hate them more than you do because they're giving us a bad name.

I've met more than my fair share of vegan nutters. Like the girl who intended on converting everyone to veganism through conceptual art. Also the woman who knocked a tray of ham sandwiches out of the hand of a kindly old man in the pub who was offering round the leftovers from a darts match. That was actually quite funny that one because it covered another vegan who was with us in bits of ham :D. Then there was the girl who 'liberated' a bucket of maggots from a fisherman. I could go on, but the eejits on here will probably recite these as concrete proof that all vegans are mentally deranged.

[I'm not for or against eating meat, I don't really care either way. I care more about the arguments being used to justify the support of either side.

Not even if they were free range people who'd been bred specifically for the purpose, wouldn't have been born otherwise, fed on healthy organic feed, lived a happy if short life and were slaughtered humanely? What's the problem? They wouldn't know any different. We could even hang the brown ones up by their ankles and slit their throats in the traditional manner.

Even if they were humanely killed, there are all sorts of utilitarian arguments against killing members of your own species, eg like a lack of respect for human life - meaning that society considers people disposable. It would probably lead to more intra and inter group agrression etc etc and it would spread Kuru.

Basically Papua New Guienea 30-50 years ago.

That's not to mention that I've alrady implied that I think the cut off point is defined by psychological agency - so there are a lot of species on the planet that I disgree with killing before I disagree with abortion. There are decent utilitarian arguments against infanticide - basically at least my way of viewing the world has a modicum of logic to it - half you lot are using raving appeals to emotion to justify your diet.

Well done, you guys managed to remind me of this video.

I'm not for or against eating meat,

at least my way of viewing the world has a modicum of logic to it

I've met more than my fair share of vegan nutters.

Not being an apologist in any way, but I think at least a couple of those you're describing there are simply nutters. What I mean is, knocking over someone's dinner simply isn't normal behaviour regardless of your motives, it's rude and totally unacceptable behaviour.

I've met people like that over the years, quite often the cause is immaterial, the important thing to them is that they have one. I knew a girl at Uni (previously unmentioned until just now because I'd completely forgotten about her, yay confirmation bias) who was variously a revolutionary vegan / feminist / christian / lesbian / whatever other cause du jour she latched on to. She'd obsess about something for a few months, then when she'd bored the tits off everyone to a point where nobody could be arsed to argue about their diet any more she'd find god and go back to the beefburgers.

FWIW i have had people pour meat gravy on my food deliberately so there are nutters on all sides.

My kids have had similiar issues at school

well you either eat it or you dont so that is just not true.

I don't care one way or the other whether people eat meat or not, I just dislike the arguments being used to justify peoples choices.

at least my way of viewing the world has a modicum of logic to it - half you lot are using raving appeals to emotion to justify your diet.

Point of note, in case it was too subtle, is that I was using the logic you yourself claimed to be using (reductio ad absurdum) in order to demonstrate that actually it's probably not as valid an argument as you think.

Oh, and, we're not feeling obliged to "justify" anything, we're perfectly happy thanks. We're just answering questions. If you want to discuss it then great, if you don't want answers then don't ask. It's broadly fruitless anyway as several people don't actually appear to be listening to any answers and are busying their straw men instead. But it was ever thus.

FWIW i have had people pour meat gravy on my food deliberately so there are nutters on all sides.

Oh, yeah, I've been to a barbecue where some wag has found it hilarious to make sure that the token disposable vegetarian grill gets plenty of pig juice drizzled all over it. Thanks for that, I'll just eat a dry bread roll then.

[quote=Tom_W1987 opined] well you either eat it or you dont so that is just not true.
I don't care one way or the other whether people eat meat or not, I just dislike the arguments being used to justify peoples choices.

Your modicum of logic clearly involves moving the goalposts by simply rewriting what you said and pretending you said something else entirely

Forgive me for not being convinced.

I'm not for or against eating meat,

Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

We know what you think as it is what you said originally.
Three folk have told you it has not happened on this thread so feel free to keep ignoring the evidence and just keep telling us what you think again.
PLease read the thread it is just not happening.

It's not been huge on this thread, but at least two posters have mentioned eating "dead animal" and "flesh" instead of the far more neutral "meat" - of course it's technically correct, but it's also a fairly interesting choice of vocabulary that seems (maybe subconciously) calculated to make meat eating less appetising, and a vegetarian lifestyle moreso.

yebbut they're the ISIS of vegan/vegetarianism 😉

i'm not pro or against meat eating. I just eat "food". and get my protein from "food".

Mogrim

I know folk who don't eat meat for those reasons...It is after all "the flesh of dead things"...agreed it's perhaps a bit provocative, but it's fundamentally true.

The packaging of meat in supermarkets and the absence of butchery and slaughter houses in towns I think are partly the driver behind a disassociation some folks have to what they are putting in their mouths. I think there's a good percentage of the population who really don't think about (or care particularly much) about the obvious link between animals, death, and Sunday lunch

so the best you can come up with is they used technically correct words you dont like.

As it is clearly the flesh of a dead animal do you think the term meat is used to make it more acceptable[sub consciously] to eat it?

I think there's a good percentage of the population who really don't think about (or care particularly much) about the obvious link between animals, death, and Sunday lunch

Not many folk would take their kids out for a day trip to the abattoir after the petting zoo and they would prefer to live in denial of how the meat gets there not all mind but some.

I chuckle internally when veggies try to promote vegetarian by accusing me of eating dead animals. Better than eating live ones, innit?

I think there's a good percentage of the population who really don't think about (or care particularly much) about the obvious link between animals, death, and Sunday lunch

I knew a girl at school who was "..a vegetarian. Well, sort of. Well, yeah, but like, only if it looks like an animal, you know. I'll eat burgers and sausages.."

Worst vegeterian ever.

to repeat you either do eat it or you dont so clearly that is just not true. Rewriting it wont change that

Again I am not against peoples decision to eat or not eat meat, just their arguments for doing so. Whether I eat meat is utterly irrespective of this, your reasoning is akin to "well you're an atheist so you must thus, automatically, be opposed to religion".

It is after all "the flesh of dead things"...agreed it's perhaps a bit provocative, but it's fundamentally true.

Which as Mogrim has pointed out, implies a moral standpoint - if you make your moral standpoint known then expect it to be challenged. Don't then whinge when people do, it's people like that who get upset and shoot up the offices of satirical magazines.

It's not been huge on this thread, but at least two posters have mentioned eating "dead animal" and "flesh" instead of the far more neutral "meat" - of course it's technically correct, but it's also a fairly interesting choice of vocabulary that seems (maybe subconciously) calculated to make meat eating less appetising, and a vegetarian lifestyle moreso.

some of my omnivore friends (albeit not on this thread) do the same thing. i can see how it could be considered to be possibly inflammatory or emotive, but i don't think that any of the vegetarians/vegans on this thread have that intent behind their posts. there's been far more provocation and attempted flaming from the meat eating side of the fence in here.