[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

What I don't understand is how people cannot grasp that fact that you can treat an animal well, you can love the animal; then you can kill it, butcher it and make money out of it.

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

Its the kill part that some are uncomfortable with

HTH

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

I'm guessing there's not much point in trying to explain the concept of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism ]speciesism[/url] at this point 🙂

What I don't understand is how people cannot grasp that fact that you can treat an animal well, you can love the animal; then you can kill it, butcher it and make money out of it.

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

What I don't understand is how people cannot grasp that fact that you can treat an animal well, you can love the animal; then you can kill it, butcher it and make money out of it.

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

However, now I have gone down this path I would still remain vegan if all meat were obtained in the fashion you describe.

Junkyard - lazarus

She declares that "meat is murder" - perhaps,

I think we can all agree we kill it to eat

I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made - one or more chickens died to create that dish. It's pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that's it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered - BUT, if they weren't, they wouldn't have lived in the first place - 7 weeks life, or no life - although she doesn't see it that way - as far as she's concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn't eat them.

In humans terms you would be arguing that the infanticide of a 7 week old child is kinder than it never having been born then you have to say we killed it to eat it.
FFS you really want to argue this

Its a terrible argument

Most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don't have much luck - male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing - Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal - but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they're a few days old, but for the animals that it's financially worth raising for meat

So basically they dont treat them well they just try ot make money out of them No offence but you have failed to make your own point there and just made a long list of things where they dont treat them well

I am not surprised she does not respond well to your version of reason

Killing an animal isn't murder, killing a human is sometimes murder, but not always.

So no, by any legal definition meat isn't murder. I say "perhaps" for the sake of being tolerant to other peoples opinion, but it's factually incorrect to call it murder.

It's also not infanticide, whilst a 7 week old human is a baby, a 7 week old Chicken is not a chick. We shouldn't humanise animals, they are not humans.

I personally think it's a perfectly valid argument - it's a chicken, not a human - we are the dominant species. Humans have always eaten other animals, even before Humans evolved our genetic forefathers were omnivores - given how many humans are alive today it would be unethical to source our meat from 'the wild' species would be hunted to extinction and hunting and killing animals is far less humane for the animal.

Cows, Chickens, Pigs and the less common domesticated livestock today exist, because Humans created them and whilst it's not a deal that they had any part in, animals don't have emotions like humans do - they exist to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species - domesticated livestock species will continue as long as we keep consuming them so their goal is aligned with ours.

Ital is vital (Yes you know that I'm a farmer)

for the sake of being tolerant to other peoples opinion,

It's also not infanticide, whilst a 7 week old human is a baby, a 7 week old Chicken is not a chick. We shouldn't humanise animals, they are not humans.

As for the rest you have just got to be trolling - their goals align with ours 😆

Okay so following on from the comments on the previous page... I'm thinking that vegans who agree, in principle, with what I said (i.e. reasonable people) would do more good for condition, and in fact the public perception of farming for meat, if they were to only eat meat from animals that had been loved/cared for properly.

This would mean that instead of being marginalised, misunderstood and generally looked upon as having a bit of a screw loose they would be seen as normal people, but principled and who care deeply for animal welfare i.e. the sort of people that one might hold in high regard and look up to.

It strikes me that veganism is too extreme, too detached from the norm, to garner the respect of those who maybe need a little help to see the error of their ways. More good would be done if they campaigned for greater access to (or even just bought into) high welfare meat and the abolition of intensive farming. As it is I can't see what good being vegan is doing for all the animals that are still suffering.

LOL so reasonable people agree with you and vegans should campaign for a nicer way to kill animals 😕 that is like arguing that those opposed to the death penalty are better off arguing for a kinder method of it being carried out.

TBH I dont want anyones respect and I am not trying to persuade anyone to do anything eta what you like it has **** all to do with me.

Hopefully this statement will help me on the road to rehabilitation where someone like you, and I really do care what you think of me, wont see me as an extremist with a screw loose

TBH these threads always end up like this where it hard to tell whether folk are just trolling or they really are this dense.

Well thanks for that, apart from a few helpful posts the majority of posts have been a flaming argument.
I only asked what Veganism was not for you lot to start a bloody row!

And if anyone says "this is STW what do you expect?" I'll make sausages from them!!!

Jamz > And you're also assuming everyone is vegan for exactly the same reasons, which is fallacious.

There are some who want to change the world, and for some of them you may be right. Some view that eating meat / dairy is still taking advantage of animals for our benefit; as an analogy, would slavery be ok if the slaves were well kept, looked after, loved and happy? And some simply don't want to eat meat etc because they're uncomfortable with consuming animal products.

There's a logic to what you're saying, but I'm afraid it's just not that simple.

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Thanks Nostoc, end of thread.

I only asked what Veganism was not for you lot to start a bloody row!

You'd have been better off asking Jeeves then, not STW.

I'm thinking that vegans who agree, in principle, with what I said (i.e. reasonable people) would do more good for condition, and in fact the public perception of farming for meat, if they were to only eat meat from animals that had been loved/cared for properly.

I'm going to get flamed here...

You're missing the point. Many vegans, not all, maybe not even a majority of them, fundamentally believe that the ethics of whether or not to inflict suffering, pain and death on an animal should not be determined by it's membership of a specific species, but instead on it's ability to suffer pain and stress. It may be a logical leap too far for many, but if you take the species aspect out of it, and accept that non-human animals can feel pain, suffering, and stress, then the justification for inflicting that does not exist from an ethical point of view. That's why many vegans will not accept that it's ok to kill an animal for human consumption no matter how well it is treated, as they believe that human and non-human rights are equivalent.

inflict suffering, pain and death on an animal

Well most people, vegan or otherwise, would not want to inflict the first two - steps should be taken to minimise that at all times. This is why I buy free range grass fed everything, incidentally.

A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's instantly stunned and killed - does it actually suffer?

A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's instantly stunned and killed - does it actually suffer?

Yes and if you follow the speciesist logic you'd ask why the same doesn't apply to humans. The philosophical and ethical side of this is quite interesting. The classic thought experiment often cited is that using this logic, if a superior alien species were to come and start farming humans for meat, would we as a species simply accept our part in the natural order, or would we think it unethical?

[i]A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's [b]instantly stunned and killed[/b][/i]

Is the ethical and moral problem for most of us (veggie/vegans). I differ to dazh the alien issues is the relevant argument.

A somewhat leading question about a happy and fulfilled life

then again imho a happy and fulfilled lives does not end your death in an abattoir and your carcass being eaten.

Daz its wasted explaining tbh and a vegan cannot eat meat even the ones that were happy right up to the point we killed it to eat it.
as fr the aliens I believe we should be thankful for what they do for us as those 7 weeks of life will be blissful and without them we would potentially be extinct and wishing them to stop is far crueler. I dont like the species arguments personally. Its just cruel to kill things that can feel pain and suffer no matter how stupid they are.

molly you cannot rear and slaughter in a nice way though you can do it in a less bad way. If buying happy cows is enough for you then that is your choice

I dont like the species arguments personally.

From a philosophical viewpoint I'd say they're logically consistent, but not a very effective way of getting the message across. The idea is just too off the wall for many to accept or understand. Try explaining to people that it's potentially more ethical to do medical experiments on newborn babies than adult chimpanzees and you're probably onto a loser 🙂

then again imho a happy and fulfilled lives does not end your death in an abattoir and your carcass being eaten.

How does being eaten after death affect your life?

Yes and if you follow the speciesist logic you'd ask why the same doesn't apply to humans

Well the thing about humans is that they get very upset when people they know get killed. How much does that apply to other species?

Its just cruel to kill things that can feel pain

But there IS such a thing as a painless death, even for a human. If someone came up behind me and shot me in the back of the head, I'd be none the wiser.

How does being eaten after death affect your life?

How much does that apply to other species?

here IS such a thing as a painless death,

There are many forms of human cruelty, the one that ends up with meat in my pan doesn't bother me that much, in fact hardly at all.
And yes, if allowed I would raise, slaughter, butcher and eat it myself.

Good.

Why aren't you allowed?

@ Junkyard, with regard to your earlier reply so my second post, please have a look at the replies of Cougar and dazh - this is how adults conduct a fruitful discussion - no need to swearing, self indulgent babble or calling other people 'dense'.

I suppose I was assuming that all vegan's would have the animals best interests at heart. I stand by the point that only eating higher welfare meat and setting an example for other people to follow is a better way of improving the quality of life of farm animals.

But, as Cougar and dazh have pointed out, the issue goes deeper than that. So we're basically saying that vegans are not comfortable with humans taking advantage of animals in any way. This notion of enslaving the animals is one that I had not considered.

Interesting... so would a vegan ever keep a pet dog?

Surely stress, pain and death are all a natural part of life? They're gonna catch up with us all at some point. And with regard the alien example - the animals are not conscious of the fact they're being farmed, so to them all is well. I'm failing to see how you draw parallels there. Obviously if I was living with the knowledge of my impending death, that would not make for a very good quality of life, but the animal is not conscious.

Although you don't need to be licensed to slaughter your own animals for personal consumption, you do need to comply with local food hygiene regulations. The cost of compliance makes it unfeasible for very small scale husbandry, so I stick to a bit of wild rabbit and game these days.

@ Junkyard, with regard to your earlier reply so my second post, please have a look at the replies of Cougar and dazh - this is how adults conduct a fruitful discussion - no need to swearing, self indulgent babble or calling other people 'dense'.

so would a vegan ever keep a pet dog?

Although you don't need to be licensed to slaughter your own animals for personal consumption, you do need to comply with local food hygiene regulations.

Interesting... so would a vegan ever keep a pet dog?

You won't be surprised to know that many vegans have 'companion' animals. This isn't surprising as many are also animal lovers. Personally I'm not that fussed by animals, but in our (mostly vegan) house we have 4 rescue cats, which are neutered/spayed and have bells on them in an attempt at stopping them killing other animals (not always successful sadly). Other vegans I know have rescue animals, but like me are completely opposed to pet breeders, pet shops and other elements of the pet industry. In an ideal world we wouldn't have pets but there are lots of domesticated animals who need homes. The important bit is to stop them breeding in an attempt to stop more of them being dumped or mistreated by irresponsible owners/keepers. Having said that I'm not opposed to companion domesticated animals on principle. The reality is that even if everyone turned vegan tomorrow, domestic animals are here to stay. The key thing is that they are allowed to live out their natural lives without exploitation or cruelty.

the animals are not conscious of the fact they're being farmed, so to them all is well.

Is that not an assumption you've made? There's a fair amount of evidence that animals are psychologically stressed by farming practices. Not least by their offspring being removed from them prematurely. They may not understand that they are being exploited, but again if you follow the speciesism logic, would an infant human child? (I'm not particularly advocating the speciesism stuff BTW, just raising it as another thing to consider)

If I kill you tonight so I can eat you do you think this might impact on your life and happiness

My happiness or otherwise ceases to become a valid concept once I'm dead. Death is pretty meaningless to me (as a conscious entity); knowledge of death is the problem.

There's a fair amount of evidence that animals are psychologically stressed by farming practices.

Depends on the farming practice. Lambs are slaughtered at 1 year, aren't they - is that not adolescence for sheep? Isn't it the point at which they'd be leaving anyway?

Really? That seems odd.

Covers stuff like disposal of carcass, containment of blood/body fluids, potential contamination of land/water etc.
In a semi urban area where I now live I'd get away with scragging a few chickens now and then, but something like a small ruminant carcass would be a bit OTT for the green bin

Molly its not really controversial to say things dont want to die and being killed makes them less happy then when they were not killed.

Its 6- 8 months for lambs

As for leaving herd animals dont to leave and not when they are fenced into a field

Dazh apologies if this has already been covered but do you see any issue feeding animal protein to your cats?

This is why I buy free range grass fed everything, incidentally.

A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's instantly stunned and killed - does it actually suffer?

Being grass fed and free range would assumedly include sheep?

I've worked on farms producing 'high-end' lamb - (destination: undisclosed supermarket chain). The sheep are happy in the fields for the most part. They are also transported regularly in trailers, they slip in panic, they can get cut up badly, in thetrailers, yards and pens they often shit massively in fear, liquid, not like the stuff they do in the field, and then slip in that too. Same in the crushes where they get checked and medicated, tailed, etc. Have seen a few get suffocated, and farmers kicking some hard (in the face/head) should they poke a head out underneath the run.

Not saying this is typical, but it was my experience. Made me feel sick. Sheep get confused in panic, overworked stressed-out farmers can lash out or at least cut corners refarding welfare. Mileages vary etc.

I find it difficult to buy and enjoy lamb since.

Molly its not really controversial to say things dont want to die and being killed makes them less happy then when they were not killed.

Might not be controversial but it's not very philosophically astute, or even correct.

Its 6- 8 months for lambs

Might not be controversial but it's not very philosophically astute, or even correct.

@ andy that is from this thread- info graphic
From experience i reckon its three months

Just googled and we are way off

A lamb is a sheep that is under one year old, and is known for its delicate flavour and tender flesh. Young lamb is slaughtered between 6 and 8 weeks - it is the palest of all lamb. Spring (also called early or summer lamb) is 3 to 5 months old.

Dazh apologies if this has already been covered but do you see any issue feeding animal protein to your cats?

Yup. It's a total contradiction and one I cannot square. I'd rather not have the cats myself but we were doing some mates a favour in taking them on as we had more space. We've tried veggie cat food. Unsurprisingly they're not interested. Dogs are easier from this point of view, they'll happily eat veggie dog food.

the meat is not seasonal, but lambing most certainly is.
and it's not called or sold as mutton until 2 years old.
from 6 months or so, I'll believe. but most definitely not all (which is what that seemed to hint at)

Yes and if you follow the speciesist logic you'd ask why the same doesn't apply to humans. The philosophical and ethical side of this is quite interesting. The classic thought experiment often cited is that using this logic, if a superior alien species were to come and start farming humans for meat, would we as a species simply accept our part in the natural order, or would we think it unethical?

The term "speciesist" is such a bollocks word, thrown about by people with no real grasp of the concept. Different forms of life have different levels of consciousness of their own imminent demise, humans or monkeys (or any number of other higher order animals, eg dolphins and elephants) being sent to a slaughterhouse would soon work out what their fate was. Sending chickens or even 7 week old babies 😈 to a slaughterhouse.... is different..... they do not understand the circumstances, have no agency and won't know what hit them before they are rendered unconscious. Value cannot exist in the absence of consciousness.

A superior alien race would understand this basic concept....

[quote=Junkyard ]a vegan cannot eat meat even the ones that were happy right up to the point we killed it to eat it.

Not even this one?

How many vegans here are pro-abortion?

Might not be controversial but it's not very philosophically astute, or even correct.

We've tried veggie cat food. Unsurprisingly they're not interested.

Cats are carnivores. I may be misremembering, but I seem to remember it's considered animal cruelty to feed them a vegetarian diet.

Also, they need taurine or they go blind (something to do with the optic nerve IIRC). This is why you can't feed them on dog food - it doesn't have taurine, cat food does.

How many vegans here are pro-abortion?

I know there's a lot of random hate for vegans, but suggesting they eat their young is a bit much.

[i]Sending chickens or even 7 week old babies to a slaughterhouse.... is different..... they do not understand the circumstances, have no agency and won't know what hit them before they are rendered unconscious.[/i]

I take it you've never been to a slaughter house then...It doesn't take the sheep, cows, pigs, long to work out what's going on in their world.

Chicken plant where a friend works recently fitted a Co2 tank to render the birds unconscious before they're stunned...stops them thrashing about so much, and they've managed to increase through put by about 5% on a good day...4/5th largest plant in the UK (can never remember), and the (edit) process about 2.5 million birds a week.

can anybody explain this forum ? people ask about bikes or rides and there's a few responses.Somebody asks a practicl question abvout his daughter's diet /health and theres nine pages of argument about the content of each other's stomachs .

great isn't it?

can anybody explain this forum ?

Imagine the entire subscribed readership of 'Horse & Hound' and 'Top Gear' clamouring down the local pub, all half-cut after having spunked a small fortune on a new niche bike, air rifle and VW van.

And then a bearded vegan walks in...*

*See also that video clip of cyclist appearing on the Alan Titchmarsh show. 😉

I know there's a lot of random hate for vegans, but suggesting they eat their young is a bit much

I declined explaining that if i was to start eating meat I would not be starting with her placenta. They were moderately offended by my refusal. FWIW a few meat eaters declined as well. Apparently it was not that nice anyway.

They did not eat the baby[quote=mr potatohead opined]can anybody explain this forum ? people ask about bikes or rides and there's a few responses.Somebody asks a practicl question abvout his daughter's diet /health and theres nine pages of argument about the content of each other's stomachs .

There are still more posts on bike than chat

It may be that we all tend to agree on what is good riding but we do get tons on wheel size or man made v natural and where tp put your bik on the road

I take it you've never been to a slaughter house then...It doesn't take the sheep, cows, pigs, long to work out what's going on in their world

I was talking hypothetically.

Also, they need taurine or they go blind (something to do with the optic nerve IIRC). This is why you can't feed them on dog food - it doesn't have taurine, cat food does.

I wasn't aware of that, but I've never tried to feed them dog food anyway so it's a moot point. I'm not sure how it would be cruel to give a cat veggie cat food ([url= http://store.vegancats.com/vegan-cat-food-c1.aspx ]there's a lot of it about[/url]) if you can get them to eat it. We tried years ago, and found that the average cat would rather starve to death than eat it, so now we don't bother.

I was talking hypothetically.

How many vegans here are pro-abortion?

i don't think many people are pro-abortion.
i'm absolutely pro-choice.

Please explain Veganism to me

Then...

I did get invited to a placenta party of a vegan couple I know

That's explained it!

I've been following the production of synthetic meat with interest, as a vege for nearly 30 years I wonder whether I would eat it or if I could not get past the association with a piece of a being.

Junkyard - lazarus

for the sake of being tolerant to other peoples opinion,

that was clearly what your post was all about you really have to be taking the piss here

It's also not infanticide, whilst a 7 week old human is a baby, a 7 week old Chicken is not a chick. We shouldn't humanise animals, they are not humans.

Are you being deliberately thick here?
I never said that I simply pointed out that if i did this with a child you think it is kinder than not having the child at all as they got the 7 weeks of life before i kill them . Very few, if any, would think what I did kinder than not having a child. Your argument is crap.

As for the rest you have just got to be trolling - their goals align with ours

Nope, no trolling here, but I'm happy to discuss the issue without resorting to petty insults.

Have you fully considered your position, have you really considered what an Animal is? Do you think they have emotions, hopes and dreams for the future, do they understand the concept of life or death, because animals at Livestocks levels don't - it's easy to humanise them, bestow attributes on them that they don't have. They don't care about dying, because they have no concept of it. What they can feel is pain, the stress of being hunted, hunger and thirst - none of which livestock suffer.

[quote=molgrips ]I was talking hypothetically.

Ah, I imagine being hypothetically killed in a hypothetical slaughter house is a lot less stressful than the real thing.

P-Jay - Member

...have you really considered what an Animal is? Do you think they have emotions...

yes.

...do they understand the concept of life or death,

yes again.

('animals' and 'they' covers quite a lot of ground, an understandable short-cut for the purposes of typed conversation, i hope you'll accept my simplistic answers)

They don't care about dying, because they have no concept of it.

Neither do newborn human babies, yet quite rightly we don't kill and eat them.

There are still more posts on bike than chat

Actually, I can answer this.

The bike forum attracts more threads than the chat forum; just a shade under double the amount. However, the chat forum tends to have longer threads, which stands to reason as it's more likely to house lengthy discussions; the average thread length is almost double.

As the mathematicians amongst us will have worked out, that equates to the a similar of posts on both forums. They're actually startlingly close - three [i]million [/i]posts on both forums. There are more posts on the bike threads but not by much, there's a few thousand in it.

I'm happy to discuss the issue without resorting to petty insults

Okay so following on from the comments on the previous page... I'm thinking that vegans who agree, in principle, with what I said (i.e. reasonable people) would do more good for condition, and in fact the public perception of farming for meat, if they were to only eat meat from animals that had been loved/cared for properly.

This would mean that instead of being marginalised, misunderstood and generally looked upon as having a bit of a screw loose they would be seen as normal people, but principled and who care deeply for animal welfare i.e. the sort of people that one might hold in high regard and look up to.

It strikes me that veganism is too extreme, too detached from the norm, to garner the respect of those who maybe need a little help to see the error of their ways. More good would be done if they campaigned for greater access to (or even just bought into) high welfare meat and the abolition of intensive farming. As it is I can't see what good being vegan is doing for all the animals that are still suffering

What you are is one of the folks who insults folks then mounts a high horse of indignation when they insult you back.

Have you fully considered your position, have you really considered what an Animal is?

Do you think they have emotions, hopes and dreams for the future, do they understand the concept of life or death,

They don't care about dying, because they have no concept of it.

They really do "care" about not dying. Every species tries to avoid this on either the individual or the collective level. Their whole existence is geared towards the prevention of death. Of course they are not sat around worrying about being farmed and imminent death, then again neither would a baby. However sheep know they are prey. they do get startled. They do move from the woods at night to the open field to avoid prey. Are they worried ? No idea but they do react. IMHO ignorance of what is coming does not make it less bad when you kill something. You are free to not care but your naive view that they are happy and their survival is aligned to our interest is naive at best.

What they can feel is pain, the stress of being hunted, hunger and thirst - none of which livestock suffer.

[img] [/img]

three million posts on both forums

Would that number skew it to chat?

Just wondered assuming you can answer that but its an academic point

Dunno TBH. I might see if I can work it out, but in the grand scheme of things it's probably a very small percentage.

Feeding a cat a vegetable diet is problematic because the amino acid balence in vegetable proteins causes alkaline conditions in the digestive system and leaves te cat vulnerable to urinary tract infections. If a food is properly formulated to avoid this (and contains synthetic taurine, as all commercial catfoods do anyway)then there is no nutritional reason why a cat can't eat a vegan diet. However, they are fussy buggers and possibly wouldn't eat it (when they can go next door). (Personally, I wouldn't keep a cat anyway.)

Trying to claim that animals in industrial meat production don't suffer or fear dying is pretty ridiculous. However, what about game?

It gets to lead a pretty happy life living wild, then gets shot in the head unawares (most of the time). I reckon that's got to rank as pretty ethical and is arguably a better way to go than old age/disease. Especially if they are being killed to manage overpopulation and the meat is almost a by-product.

I'm not going to get into the moral implications of someone being vegan but owning four cats (275 million prey animals including 54 million birds a year killed by domestic cats - I bet a fair number tortured before death too) because no doubt I'll get accused of being an awful person. 😉

I'm not going to get into the moral implications of someone being vegan but owning four cats

Yup, like I said it's a contradiction. In an ideal world stupid people wouldn't allow their pet cats to breed, and breeding them commercially would be banned. However it's not and people are stupid so we are left with lots of cats who need homes. At the end of the day it's not the cat's fault there are stupid/greedy humans who think it's a great idea to bring them into the world.

Better than that grum, game meat is often a necessary crop protection by-product of vegetable and grain production.

Rabbits, deer, hares, wood pigeon - all of them need controlling in order to provide food for vegetarians and vegans, and what's best is that killing them can provide hours of bloody good fun too 😀

Of course, that's before we get in to the widespread poisoning of rodents and the ecological disaster of fertilisers and pesticides sprayed around the countryside in order to make sure these veggies get their dinner.

What does cat taste like?

What does cat taste like?

Saltier than golden eagle, but a bit more pungent than hen harrier.

😆

I heard it was like a cross between a baby robin and a childs face

Also, they need taurine or they go blind (something to do with the optic nerve IIRC).

Ninfan did you miss the bit at the beginning when pretty much every veggie/vegan on here said they couldn't care less what you lot eat? Yet still you feel the need to display your meat eating credentials in the most graphic and provocative way possible. Carry on though. It's quite amusing.

Eh? Nowt to do with what I eat - it's what has to be killed in order to provide your vegetables that is the issue.

Don't you get it? Not eating meat yourself doesn't stop animals being killed in order to put food on [b]your [/b]table - in fact it's absolutely widespread, your moral highground is built on the corpses of dead animals.

Yet the vegans still feel the need to post pictures and videos of animals suffering in a graphic way blah blah blah... I'm assuming those that posted such photos of chickens in a macerator don't care that I eat the chickens that got diverted the other way?

I don't care what people eat. I've eaten rat, armadillo and tapir.

But if people are going to cut out something from their diet, and someone's teenage daughter has chosen to do the same... how about giving suggestions as to what easy, tasty nutritious options there are as a replacement? so they don't end up on a toast+jam diet whilst claiming to be vegan.

To repeat what daz said two posts ago we dont care what you eat

http://www.viva.org.uk/going-vegetarian-vegan

WOw the internet what a resource and I fell certain that a caring, intelligent and sensitive person like you will be giving it lots of thought

your moral highground is built on the corpses of dead animals.

I'm not claiming any moral highground. Funny though that you perceive it that way. You can forgive the vegans and veggies who do claim the moral high ground though as they are constantly being told by the likes of you that that's the case. 🙂

I really couldnt imaging life without the likes of bacon, lamb, juicy steak, sausages and not to forget crackling. Oh and black pudding thats some good eating. I'm hungry now.

Each to their own, but i do get the feeling that vegans/vegetarians do try to push it on others.

Plus i don't think its 100% possible to avoid products that use animal products. So where do they stand then.

I really couldnt imaging life without the likes of bacon, lamb, juicy steak, sausages and not to forget crackling. Oh and black pudding thats some good eating. I'm hungry now.

Each to their own, but i do get the feeling that vegans/vegetarians do try to push it on others.