[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

I'm wondering when I last managed a day without eating some form of meat or fish

This is in no means an attack, but I do find it really odd that some folk have to have meat with absolutely everything. It's like an addiction. Don't you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of 'meat' (as opposed to thinking of it as something you're going without)? Because essentially that's what it is, it's a convenient way of packaging protein. Quorn can be hit and miss, but their peppered steaks are nice, and I'm quite partial to the frozen 'chicken' burgers. Or if you can find them (I think H&B still carry them), Tivall hotdogs are indistinguishable from the Plumrose ones I used to have before I was veggie. Plenty of options where you can eat broadly what you normally eat, not eating meat doesn't have to equate to eating your own bodyweight in lettuce leaves.

And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don't think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

This is true, however as general rules of thumb, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles have very simple rules which do not require much research on the part of the follower which is why they are popular with people seeking a more ethical lifestyle. You could say the same about the organic/local/fairtrade movements too. It would be preferable for everyone to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, but it's not suprising that many don't.

what about falafel instead of burgers?
Some curries are veggie anyway - Dahls and the like
I assume veggie mince in Bolognese sauce or similar

Not fan of meat substitute as it is both expensive and heavily processed

Don't you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

I can't believe people eat veggies every day! Doesn't the same food get boring?? 😉

You could say the same about the organic/local/fairtrade movements too.

Indeed. I was listening to a podcast recently and they were talking about research showing that in some instance it's 'greener' to buy food that's been flown/shipped in from far away places than buying locally produced stuff - if they have climatic conditions/soil etc that are much better suited to growing the stuff than we do then it actually uses more energy for us to grow it than to import it.

There's quite a few criticisms of Fair Trade also - not sure what to think on that one. It seems on balance to probably be a good thing but it's by no means certain in all cases.

The nuances of the issues involved seem to cause some people to just throw their hands up and say 'well it's all too complicated so I'll just not bother' - I'm not advocating that.

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of 'meat'?

I should do more veg stuff but it's a laziness/tastiness thing. I've done some pretty decent veg curries in the past (as a veggie work colleague taught me a fair bit about making curries) but almost all of them you thought "yeah this is really good.... but adding some chicken/lamb/prawn would top it off a treat".

I assume veggie mince in Bolognese sauce or similar

One thing I've found is that Quorn mince takes considerably less cooking than its meaty brethren. You can't simmer it for hours like you can (AFAIK) with meat, it disintegrates. If I'm doing a chilli (say), I'll fry it off first to give it a bit more bite, then chuck it into the chilli maybe 10-15 minutes before the end of cooking. I'd guess a large percentage of people who've tried Quorn mince and said they've not liked it have probably overcooked it into slurry, done properly you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

[quote=Cougar ]This is in no means an attack, but I do find it really odd that some folk have to have meat with absolutely everything. It's like an addiction. Don't you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

There's quite a lot of variety in meat! Given I do eat meat, I don't really see the point in meat substitutes - as I mentioned I did used to do meat free months (ISTR doing it for lent, but let's not go there!) which is more than most people manage, and I did that without eating Quorn burgers or whatever. I get all the issues about eggs, but not going to stop eating them, and thinking further we do sometimes have scrambled eggs and beans on toast for tea. I was going to suggest quiche, but we usually have the one with bacon in! Maybe should see if I can sneak a veggie curry past the kids.

Less meat might be more realistic - if we'd had this discussion a couple of days ago I might have bought just the one pack of lamb for our curry and topped up with veg rather than thought it was a bit less meat than we usually use and bought a second with plans to freeze some.

I can't believe people eat veggies every day! Doesn't the same food get boring??

Touché (-: I guess we're back to the good / crap diet argument. It's probably just as easy to be imaginative or boring irrespective of being veggie / carnie.

the mycoprotein used to make quorn comes from fungus grown on a petrochemical feedstock. nice.

An omnivore can eat all that

This. Why the assumption that if you eat meat, eggs, and dairy that you don't eat fruit and veg?

It could be very different though.. I'd much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds.

What makes you think that (even more) scots pine and birch or reintroduction of wolves would be of greater ecological value than protecting a (largely artificial) environment that gives us black grouse,lapwings, hen harriers, sundew, bog asphodel, dor beetles or round mouthed whorl snails?

I don't mind Quorn but I'm not sure about the ethics of it. They use free-range eggs (in the UK at least) but then unless someone knows otherwise I'm pretty sure large-scale free-range egg producers are still going to be killing all the male chicks, and hens that are past peak productivity.

I get all the issues about eggs, but not going to stop eating them

You could probably find someone with a few hens and get proper free-range non-intensively produced ones - they're much nicer also.

A wee dod of Marmite gives Quorn mince a meatier flavour. Cooked properly (ie not over-cooked) most folk struggle to tell the difference

Can a vegan drive a car running on petrol? Dino juice..

Cooked properly (ie not over-cooked) most folk struggle to tell the difference

Difference to what?

Fillet steak, turkey mince, liver, bacon, alligator?

Given I do eat meat, I don't really see the point in meat substitutes

That's my point really. Don't look at it as an anything substitute, rather as just another option. You wouldn't say "given I do eat beef, I don't really see the point in beef substitutes like chicken," would you. Rather than categorising it as meat / not meat, it could be yet another protein source. Put a positive spin on it rather than a negative, if your mindset is that you're missing out on something then you will find it much harder to deny yourself.

Anecdotally: I went out with mates a couple of years back, stopped off at a greasy caff for lunch. One friend ordered a veggie sausage sandwich. "Oh," says another, "I didn't know you were vegetarian?" "I'm not," replied Dave, for that was his name, "I just like them." Sometimes he ordered the vegetarian sausages, sometimes the pork ones, or whatever else he fancied that day.

That always struck me as a wholly sensible approach to food, rather than mate #2 who seemingly hadn't realised that vegetarian offerings could be eaten by someone who wasn't vegetarian. It's almost the exact reverse of one of the common Vegetarian Bingo lines; "if you call yourself an omnivore, why won't you eat things that don't have meat in?" (-:

as general rules of thumb, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles have very simple rules which do not require much research on the part of the follower which is why they are popular with people seeking a more ethical lifestyle

or alternatively, the majority of belief based diet systems encourage their followers to just follow the [i]simple rules[/i] with the minimum of investigation/research into the deeper implications of their decisions

I was going to become a vegan a while ago and asked a mate round to give me some advice on it (he's been vegan for 20+ years). He turned up in a Bentley... knob.... decided it wasn't for me there and told him to do one.... 😀

Difference to what?

One thing I've found is that Quorn mince takes considerably less cooking than its meaty brethren.

This. Why the assumption that if you eat meat, eggs, and dairy that you don't eat fruit and veg?

Rash generalisations are annoying, aren't they.

Can a vegan drive a car running on petrol? Dino juice..

The answer to which is of course, "if they have passed the required test and are insured then yes they can."

If the question you actually want to ask is "would they..." then you'd have to ask them all. I doubt many would object given that dinosaurs weren't all murdered off by the petroleum industry back in the late Cretaceous, but some people will believe any old nonsense.

I once made chantenay carrots out of some cocktail sausages by adding orange food dye. The vegans I had round for dinner suspected nothing

This is obviously with them being so accustomed to substitute products, they can no longer tell the difference.

On the one hand I felt sad for them, but on the other, even though they didn't know: I'd done them a favour

[quote=Cougar ]Anecdotally: I went out with mates a couple of years back, stopped off at a greasy caff for lunch. One friend ordered a veggie sausage sandwich. "Oh," says another, "I didn't know you were vegetarian?" "I'm not," replied Dave, for that was his name, "I just like them." Sometimes he ordered the vegetarian sausages, sometimes the pork ones, or whatever else he fancied that day.
As options have improved over the years, I've found that ordering the veggie choice at weddings, corporate meals etc usually results in a better meal than the standard, over-done roast beef/chicken or whatever other standard is being served up.

an omelette?

Agreed. My wife is a pescatarian, we have fish/non-meat meals all the time. Falafel is delicious, couscous, veg curry, veg pizza, soups, even some good veggie BBQ stuff. I can't do quorn though, I really don't like it, quinola is another thing I can't eat. I can't stand any form of offal either

Yup- if nothing else, it's more likely to be cooked to order. I get the same with gluten free, in my work canteen you get a dude making it fresh and paying attention, everyone else gets something out of a bucket that's been keeping warm for up to a month.

I suspect if you ever eat in an almost entirely vegetarian place, the meat option will be the same 😆

[quote=Cougar ]You wouldn't say "given I do eat beef, I don't really see the point in beef substitutes like chicken," would you.

No, because chicken doesn't pretend to be beef (I think I already mentioned that there is quite a bit of variety in meat). Given I do like variety, if I'm going to eat something which isn't meat I prefer to eat something which isn't pretending to be what I'm not eating.

I've quite often claimed to be vegetarian when booking flights, given my perception that the in flight meals are better (as vegetarians without the choice you'll probably say that's not the case!)

edit: a bit slow, clearly I'm not the only one with that perception - it's great being an omnivore when you can choose whether or not to eat meat!

[quote=binners ]an omelette?
[quote=scotroutes ]as options have improved over the years 😆

It could be very different though.. I'd much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds

Why, so you can go "ooooh look fluffy bear....ooooh ahhhh...doesn't it have such big teeth".

10,000 years ago, bears and wolves etc were the bane of our very existence. Hundreds of thousands of years before that, countless ancestors of ours, would have been predated by big cats and killed in utterly horrific manners.

**** them all! The planet is our bitch now - we need to mold it to suit our own needs. Whether we have peat bogs full of game birds, or rewilded wolves is entirely up to what we collectively value more as entertainment.

I've found that ordering the veggie choice at weddings, corporate meals etc usually results in a better meal than the standard,

Yeah, it can be. It varies of course, sometimes you get what's clearly an afterthought (eg, same as everyone else only without the centrepiece). But there's been many times where (after the inevitable "you're vegetarian? But whhhhhyyyyyy? I could never be vegetarian, I like meat too much" etc etc discussion) my food's turned up and everyone comments about how good it looks and how they wished they'd ordered it now.

The Mrs's is a Veggie, I'm not. She's a fairly strict adherence to it, I'm about 80% with it. Her choice is based on Animal welfare, mine too. If I know where it comes from and killed in a humane way and local (the prime decision point for me) then I'm happy, if not I choose veggie too.

We have two farms in the family, one Beef cattle and one Lamb. Both organic and took nearly 7 years to get hold of the certificate. Damn it's good meat, I know where it comes from, who looked after it, who killed it, get all the choice over what I eat in the world yet very rarely do I come home with any.. I made a pact with the Mrs to not eat meat in the Appt we have, but when home I'll eat what I choose to.
Works for us.

Suggest you make your own decisions on what you eat and not be swayed by anyone elses view you don't trust/believe.

But there's been many times where (after the inevitable "you're vegetarian? But whhhhhyyyyyy? I could never be vegetarian, I like meat too much" etc etc discussion) my food's turned up and everyone comments about how good it looks and how they wished they'd ordered it now.

As a vegan I tire of this happening as well 😉

hmmmm, early genus of the species Homo (like Erectus that managed to survive 2 million years) probably didn't have the brain mutation that caused "conciousness" and thus didn't feel "bad", still managed to co-operate however, as do troops of Baboon and Chimpanzee today. I don't think there's much evidence for co-operation as a result of selfishness. (as opposed to self interest)

Chimps are little different to humans when one realizes that actually..... chimps have theory of mind, so yes, they can conciously empathise with each other.

No, because chicken doesn't pretend to be beef (I think I already mentioned that there is quite a bit of variety in meat). Given I do like variety, if I'm going to eat something which isn't meat I prefer to eat something which isn't pretending to be what I'm not eating.

Heh. One of the most common complaints I hear from omnivores about meat "substitutes" is their perception that they're not sufficiently similar to their meat counterparts; I've only ever heard vegetarians say they don't like them because they're too similar, that's a first. You like variety, yet are actively rejecting yet more variety. (-:

Perhaps chicken and beef was a bad example. How about comparing a shepherd's pie with a cottage pie? They're basically the same dish with different meats, one's not "pretending" to be the other. Why should a veggie mince pie be treated any differently?

I've quite often claimed to be vegetarian when booking flights, given my perception that the in flight meals are better (as vegetarians without the choice you'll probably say that's not the case!)

Difficult to say as I've never been in a position to compare. I have heard others say the same thing though. Either way, I guess if I weren't veggie there'd still be an argument for ordering vegetarian in situations where the quality of the food / preparation couldn't be relied upon. I've always advised people to go veggie for the weekend at festivals, for instance (you really don't want to have to spend all day in a festival portaloo).

[quote=bikebouy ]I made a pact with the Mrs to not eat meat in the Appt we have,

Suggest you make your own decisions on what you eat 😀

Having read NW and scotroutes veggie option posts that sounds like a good idea, common sense approach, thing is I can't ever see myself trying that because

"I could never be vegetarian, I like meat too much"

*I guess actually mean vegan here, I've had some rather nice cheese dishes, but as I** can only really see two reasons for eschewing meat, 1.animal welfare 2.being a healthy option, and cheese circumvents both of those I don't think they really count.

**being an amoral [s]scumbag[/s] omnivore

I should say - I'm not even veggie. I just like a bit of variety in my diet. Sometimes I have meat, sometimes I don't.

Thems fighting words DONK
Invites DONK for tea

I live with a Vegan. Every day is a struggle.

It's fine really - me and the offspring are pescatarian so it doesn't limit us much, and we do get to try a bunch of odd processed German things made from pressed fungus.

[quote=Cougar ]

Given I do like variety, if I'm going to eat something which isn't meat I prefer to eat something which isn't pretending to be what I'm not eating.

I don't see any conflict between those two points.

You like variety, yet are actively rejecting yet more variety. (-:

In other news I don't eat shit 😉

bencooper - Member

I live with a Vegan. Every day is a struggle.

I'm a delectamentarian.
Every day is heavenly. 😀

In other news I don't eat shit

You know what they say; one man's meat is another man's pornography, or something.

In other news I don't eat shit

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of 'meat' (as opposed to thinking of it as something you're going without)? Because essentially that's what it is, it's a convenient way of packaging protein. Quorn can be hit and miss, but their peppered steaks are nice, and I'm quite partial to the frozen 'chicken' burgers. Or if you can find them (I think H&B still carry them), Tivall hotdogs are indistinguishable from the Plumrose ones I used to have before I was veggie.

I'm vegan and I don't ask people why they're carnivore therefore why should they question my diet... it's my choice as much as their choice is
As for lacking certain nutrients, that bull.. all my blood tests taken each year are fine, the only thing that drops is colesterol counts (LDL)
The next stupid question.... 'where do you get your protein from?' - FFS from the food I eat - the ignorance that protein only comes from dead animal and the fact that your body only requires 1gm of protein per kg of body weight
Lack of energy... haha... you can look at my Strava if you want and decide if I have a lack of energy!
As for the cost of dead animal production, take a read http://www.worldwatch.org/node/549
I've not mentioned the diseases associated with dead animal consumption but that would take up too much space and time...
Eat what you want, but don't question my or any other diet unless you want to save somebody's life or health

spxxky - Member

I'm vegan and I don't ask people why they're carnivore

You don't know any.

Anyway, my strict delectamentarian diet requires me to visit the Polish deli next door.
Ciao for now!

Just checked out the ingredients of those "hotdogs"... **** grim. (No worse than shitty processed foods containing meat that've been scraped off some assembly line of course, but I don't eat those either).

Well, they're hot dogs, they're not haute cuisine. Out of interest though, I compared the nutritional information with the Plumrose ones.

Per 100g:

.		Plumr'	Tivall
ENERGY 		792kJ	560Kj
PROTEIN		10.5g	11g
FAT
Total		14.5g	8.4g
Saturated	5.0g	0.9g
CARBOHYDRATE
Total		4.5g	3.3g
Sugars		0.0g	0g
SODIUM		900mg	1g

Additionally, the Tivall ones have: Calcium, Iron, Zinc, Folic acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12.

Whilst they're still arguably "junk food" I'd hazard that they're a whole lot better than their pork (and chicken, who knew) counterparts.

Is there anything specifically in the ingredients that you're objecting to? (I was a tad surprised to read that the colouring agent is rust...!)

here's a thing, i like pigs, i think they're fascinating creatures. More than worthy of our respect and care, even fondness.

so when we kill one, i think it's important to make sure we're not wasteful. and if that means hot dogs made of lips, ears and arseholes, so be it.

being picky would be disrespectful, surely?

How can anyone not like hot dogs?

Sometimes the world I live in delivers nothing but confusion tinged with sadness 😥

Additionally, the Tivall ones have: Calcium, Iron, Zinc, Folic acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12.

Whilst they're still arguably "junk food"

don't think it is about questioning other people's diet (vegan, veggie, pesco-lacto-wotsit, or omnivore).

OP was asking more about "what do I need to know or be aware of?".

Of course there are plenty of very healthy people of all dietary preferences. but if a teen suddenly just decides to "cut out all meat", something has to take its place. not just toast and jam. yes of course you can cross out vegan diet and replace with cr@p diet and say FTFY for those that do decide on a toast and jam diet, but it doesn't exactly help anyone.

Yes I eat meat. Funnily enough by choosing to be a meat eater I didn't just cut out carrots, brocolli, and chickpeas. I choose not to eat quorn mainly because it's a bit weird. It's alright, but I'd rather have meat where the quorn is, or something totally different.

I don't use scare tactics to justify eating meat. Certain militant vegans (not my words - think they were used on page 1) do try to scare me. I have worked in the farm industry, and know when to spot BS.

Now off to find those sheep and cows that eat meat...

And I notice you skip over the industrially extracted ingredients like vegetable oil/hydrolyzed vegetable protein.

I mostly skipped over the ingredients entirely, I wasn't particularly talking about that.

"Industrially extracted ingredients" is a more interesting question though. Is that a bad thing? I don't know, but I do know that hydrolysis has been used in the food industry for a couple of hundred years, HVP and variants on a theme are pretty common. It's probably in trace amounts anyway, it's used as a 'meaty' flavouring similar to MSG.

it's not a great advert though when the junk food (there's no "arguably" about it) needs to be artificially enriched.

Again, there's nothing new or unusual in this. Ever eaten, I don't know, bread? Breakfast cereal? Anything that claims to be "fortified"?

And who's to say it "needs" to be artificially enriched? Perhaps it's a marketing move to make the product stand out from competitors whose hot dogs are lacking in those vitamins.

Andy > well said, all very sensible.

"Industrially extracted ingredients" is a more interesting question though.

is there a better local source than the ones flown in from Spain? so transport pollution and irrigation issues to consider there.

I wasn't making a moral point there. I could have said 'freshly pressed locally produced fruit juice containing a reasonable level of vitamin C' but I'd have sounded even more of a pretentious arse than usual. And that takes some doing.

f you need a chemistry degree to understand how your dinner gets on the table then I'M OOT. So in that sense, it's not an interesting question at all, just a big red flag (to me at least).

I have been a vegetarian for about 35 years. My diet is quite close to being vegan but I sometimes have dairy as I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to second guess what is in the meals not cooked by us.

I don't actually like meat and never have.

I don't really think about what other people eat it's up to them.

I don't really see why some omnivores regard the lack of meat in my diet as some sort of challenge.

Aye that meat will just have been grass fed and experienced no chemicals ever and it will just be "Natural".

EDIT: Haha nice edit there but done before he saw my reply t be fully accurate

He asked me what I thought was safe to eat FWIW

As it is your argument applied to the meat you eat i am not sure why you are asking me.

If you need a chemistry degree to understand how your dinner gets on the table then I'M OOT. So in that sense, it's not an interesting question at all, just a big red flag (to me at least).

And that's entirely your prerogative of course. But your big red flag is purely subjective, there's no science (or, y'know, facts) behind it. Your argument is basically "I don't understand it and it sounds a bit funny."

Personally, I think finding out whether something we eat may actually be harmful or just surrounded by Internet scare stories is a very interesting question indeed. Sure, it might be a bit of effort, but I personally prefer that approach to batting some baby animal over the noggin and tearing off lumps of its flesh. That just seems, well, barbaric and wholly unnecessary really.

In unrelated news, I've just realised that I've been spelling and saying "prerogative" incorrectly for decades.

Personally I would be so embarrassed if i was spelling words so poorly 😉

EDIT: Haha nice edit there but done before he saw my reply t be fully accurate

He asked me what I thought was safe to eat FWIW

As it is your argument applied to the meat you eat i am not sure why you are asking me.

I don't really see why some omnivores regard the lack of meat in my diet as some sort of challenge.

I'd find any diet that omits bacon a great challenge!

I'd find any diet that omits bacon a great challenge!

HOUSE!

As much as possible I suppose, I thought that was the point of organic certification.

You're broadly right, though "organic" is more to do with animal welfare, in the UK at any rate. I'd have to look it up, but IIRC there are limits rather than outright bans on things like pesticides.

The Soil Association website is the place to go if you want to find out what's actually in your meat. Er, so to speak.

Your argument is basically "I don't understand it and it sounds a bit funny."

FWIW the thing that really put me off processed foods was watching an episode of How It Works concerning the production of vegetable oil (yes, it was all systems go that day at Chez Zilog). I appreciate that all the solvents used (and hydrochloric acid in the case of HVP) are neutralised and don't appear in the food you eat - it just all seemed so [i]unnecessary[/i] to me. Obviously this applies equally to veggie/non-veggie food.

HOUSE!

I make no apologies for my love of pork products!

So is it better or worse to avoid eating something you're not sure about, or just blindly carry on eating it anyway?

It's better to find out and make an informed decision, n'est-ce pas?

FWIW the thing that really put me off meat was watching an episode of How It Works concerning the production of meat in an abbatoir. I appreciate that all the techniques are supposed to be humane but it just all seemed so [i]unnecessary [/i]to me.

Fixed that for you. (-:

TBH, heavily processed foods is a whole other discussion (and where I was going when I said it was interesting earlier). We know from scaremongering headlines that "processed = bad" but we must also understand that "pithy soundbites ? science." Heavily processed foods are often laden with salt, sugar and fats; things our bodies crave to the point of addiction but aren't particularly loaded with nutritional value. To my mind this is a much greater danger than some centuries-old chemical process used on a trace ingredient.

Besides, I said at the outset that I'm lucky to live in a society where not eating meat is a viable lifestyle. But to have a diet which fully avoids anything that sounds like it might be processed or artificial in some way we've actually got the opposite problem; it's very difficult to do with any degree of certainty and requires a financial investment which is out of the reach of a lot of the populace. It is, if you like, an actual First World Problem.

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

It's better to find out and make an informed decision, n'est-ce pas?

But to have a diet which fully avoids anything that sounds like it might be processed or artificial in some way we've actually got the opposite problem; it's very difficult to do with any degree of certainty and requires [b]a financial investment which is out of the reach of a lot of the populace[/b].

I genuinely don't believe this is true.

people like eating the crap that is slowly killing them

*pretty sure in a lot of cases this is a brand/tag rather than a certification that the contents are 100% natural.

I genuinely don't believe this is true.

Point is, organic produce is more expensive to buy (and I assume, to produce) than its non-organic counterparts. This probably isn't a big deal to most of us on AspiringToBeMiddleClassTrackWorld, but if you're down to your last tenner before your giro turns up and you need to feed your family and your dog-on-a-string, then whether or not your Lidl Value Burgers had the opportunity for a good moo before they were ground into little bits and reassembled into convenient shapes is going to take second fiddle to whether or not you can get six for 29p.

Whether it's cheaper to live off ready-meals or cook your own from scratch (which I think is what you were alluding to?) is a whole other argument, of course.

Obviously this applies equally to veggie/non-veggie food.

well, quite. which is why it's a bit of a non-issue with regard to this particular thread (not that much of it has been on-topic, mind!)

*pretty sure in a lot of cases this is a brand/tag rather than a certification that the contents are 100% natural.

The Soil Association "organic" certification is just that, a certification. Nothing to stop the corporate marketing machines coming up with slogans that sound very similar though. "Farm fresh!" Meaningless.

Point is, organic produce is more expensive to buy (and I assume, to produce) than its non-organic counterparts

not necessarily.

Unicorn Grocery in Manchester has a chalk board on which they regularly display price comparisons between their own organic, mostly locally grown fresh produce and the non-organic supermarket equivalents. More often than not, Unicorn's prices are lower (the only one they can never compete on price-wise is bananas (and no, these are obviously NOT locally grown anyway!)).

You don't believe that buying all fresh, "organic"*, as tampered with as little as possible food is more expensive then mass produced, processed, canned/frozen/shrinkwrapped stuff?

EDIT: actually xherbivorex makes a very good point above. The organic produce from local farms in the farmers market near me is often cheaper than supermarket prices. Don't confuse the profits made from food by big companies with the cost of producing it. The problem is as much down to us allowing corporations to dictate what we eat, where it comes from & how much we have to pay for it as anything else. You can always grow it yourself; what could be cheaper than that?

My Wife's workmate has just converted to being Vegan, like most new converts to anything she's very evangelical about it, but isn't open to debate which I find frustrating.

She declares that "meat is murder" - perhaps, I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made - one or more chickens died to create that dish. It's pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that's it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered - BUT, if they weren't, they wouldn't have lived in the first place - 7 weeks life, or no life - although she doesn't see it that way - as far as she's concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn't eat them.

And by extension the same could be said for all animal products - very few animals are hunted from the wild these days, aside of course from Fish, who oddly seem to be 'okay' for a certain percentage of Vegetarians.

She sees millions of animals being killed every year for food and it upsets her, which I can understand - there's nothing pleasant about killing something, but equally - the vast majority of these animals wouldn't have been born, or lived in the first place if we didn't eat them - most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don't have much luck - male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing - Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal - but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they're a few days old, but for the animals that it's financially worth raising for meat they live a live without attack by predators and won't face starvation, or thirst and will be cared for.

Unfortunately - my Wife's workmate isn't open to debate or reason, she preferred ill thought out Internet 'facts' that wouldn't pass a snopes test and if you try to offering an alternative view she fingers in ears and "la la la la I can't hear you".

depends where you live.
back home most of the fruit and veg would come from the local farmshop. conveniently for us that was just on the road out of the village. or in summer, often PYO.

live in a town, and the average city dweller probably wouldn't even know where the local farmshop or farmer's market is. and if they did, it is probably nowhere near as convenient as Waitrose.

friend's farm stuff all mostly ended up in local markets (or cider). the bigger farm with the farm shop, had loads going straight to Tesco and would be on the shelves with 48 hours. not an awful lot in it. no idea about price, other than the pickers getting paid 2x as much but big penalties for getting too many duff strawberries in a punnet, when you know you're picking for Tesco rather than local market.

She declares that "meat is murder" - perhaps,

I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made - one or more chickens died to create that dish. It's pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that's it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered - BUT, if they weren't, they wouldn't have lived in the first place - 7 weeks life, or no life - although she doesn't see it that way - as far as she's concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn't eat them.

In humans terms you would be arguing that the infanticide of a 7 week old child is kinder than it never having been born then you have to say we killed it to eat it.
FFS you really want to argue this 😯

Its a terrible argument

Most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don't have much luck - male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing - Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal - but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they're a few days old, but for the animals that it's financially worth raising for meat

So basically they dont treat them well they just try ot make money out of them No offence but you have failed to make your own point there and just made a long list of things where they dont treat them well

I am not surprised she does not respond well to your version of reason 😯

[quote=P-Jay ]My Wife's workmate has just converted to being Vegan, like most new converts to anything she's very evangelical about it, but isn't open to debate which I find frustrating.
...
Unfortunately - my Wife's workmate isn't open to debate or reason, she preferred ill thought out Internet 'facts' that wouldn't pass a snopes test and if you try to offering an alternative view she fingers in ears and "la la la la I can't hear you".

In which case I suggest that when she evangelises, you do fingers in your ears and "la la la"!