[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

There is definitely a trend to stereotype vegans (and veggies) as majorly hypocritical, precious, PITA, affected numbskulls.

They're the one's with dreadlocks who always seem to be playing a guitar and singing at house parties/camping trips/festivals.

The rest of them are probably alright.

'm trying to figure out if Junkyard is not on the forum tonight, or desperately trying not to get drawn in

I was the former I am not the later - though not very desperate as its not like we will be having a real conversation with facts and mutual respect

eat what you like and leave me alone to do the same

Phew, I was worried I'd scared you off 😳

schnor - Member
I was showing a vegan friend and her family around my bee hives the other week, and was showing them with an empty hive how the colony works, how I extract the honey, etc, [b]and the vegan recoiled at a squished bee between the wooden layers.[/b]

Apparently it was the dead bee bit she objected to, rather than the 'exploitation' side of things. I asked if she'd eat honey if I could guarantee no bee was killed - which is pretty much impossible - she said yes.

And would a vegan ever consider having a Venus Flytrap or Pitcher Plant in the house?

Yeah, stupid vegans I bet they'd ban tigers or summinck, or pull out all the sharks teef innit?

You are a natural being in a natural world with that comes responsibilities one of which is not to exploit other creatures for your own pleasure or advantage .

Buohahahah, nature is cruel. Our "responsibility" goes unnoticed by a universe that is utterly indifferent to suffering. I didn't choose to be put on this ****ing shithole..the universe shitted me out onto this chaotic planet, luckily I find the lunacy amusing. Natures not some mystical force that knows what's best, it's a set of loaded dice with some randomness thrown in at a quantum level.

Nature - "oooh look, that's a nice planet, what wonderful interesting organisms reside on it...to bad I set a 100km wide asteroid on a collision course with it when I initiated the big bang...cuz determinism."

[img] [/img]

Do you think nature gives a shit about the hundreds of thousands of sentient lives it snuffs out each day? The world is a ****ing nightmare if you look hard enough, a pretty one...but a ghoulish nightmare all the same. Also, tell me... exactly how are humans above nature? There is only self interest behind all of our actions, you don't actually really...really care about that dead chicken...it just makes you feel better about yourself when you choose not to eat it.

Whether you choose to eat chicken or not will make jack shit of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Nevermind the millions of animals killed by pesticides in the growing of vegetables, only they are invertebrates and not fluffy wuffy charismatic megafauna, so it's fine to kill them and still be vegan, isn't it?

+1, I laughed.

Vegans are pussies.
Jainism or GTFO.

vegan cakes tend to be well good, because they put a [i]lot[/i] of effort into making them tasty.

My salted caramel and nectarine cake tends to be well good, because I put a lot of effort into it with scant regard for the presence or absence of animal products, and I'm a master baker.

At least I think that's what my Mum said.

constantly fiddling with your cream horn?

Buohahahah, nature is cruel. Our "responsibility" goes unnoticed by a universe that is utterly indifferent to suffering....

Whilst I believe that is all true, most people still decide that it doesn't give them a free reign to steal, murder and rape.
Instead we have a moral framework built on empathy, sympathy and a sense of fairness.

Many people choose to extend that to animals to some extent or other.

That seems like plenty of justification to me, if any were needed.

(Personally speaking I like meat too much to be vegetarian and I'm morally okay with animals dying to feed me. But I do avoid lamb though, because even though it is delicious I decided to draw the line at eating babies. Everyone has a limit)

But I do avoid lamb though, because even though it is delicious I decided to draw the line at eating babies. Everyone has a limit

[img] [/img]

Most of the vegans i know have poor health/low energy and it's usually a drama. Meat makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest. I'm a firm believer that animals are here for our benefit, although I'd like to see them treated much better in the chain.

Ooh thanks for that nickjb. Looks like I'm fine to eat lamb after all.

Nevermind the millions of animals killed by pesticides in the growing of vegetables, only they are invertebrates and not fluffy wuffy charismatic megafauna, so it's fine to kill them and still be vegan, isn't it?

This is what I was referring to when I said we should all take more interest in where our food comes from.

A lot of massive generalisations on here, the vegan I know is unhealthy this and that... just like cyclists, car/van drivers etc. There are a few idiots which give us all a bad name!

My teenage daughter started following a vegan diet about 18 months ago. She ate loads but still got quite thin, and started getting problems with her skin and circulation, and her periods stopped. The doctor persuaded her to reintroduce some meat (locally bred, free range) and eggs/dairy into her diet and she is back to normal, and obviously not a vegan any more. Maybe something to keep an eye on if as she's a similar age?

Whilst I believe that is all true, most people still decide that it doesn't give them a free reign to steal, murder and rape.
Instead we have a moral framework built on empathy, sympathy and a sense of fairness.

A system which is entirely built on self interest - your brain makes you feel bad about raping and pillaging because such actions are likely going affect you materially at some point, a world that allowed such behaviour wouldn't necessairily benefit onself. That's why humans cooperate.

It's not because there is actually any such thing as good or evil though, there is just aberrant behaviour.

Our daughter is 17, she's also lost a lot of weight since [s]becoming vegan[/s] starving herself except for bread and jam

ftfy

[i]your brain makes you feel bad about raping and pillaging because such actions are likely going affect you materially at some point, a world that allowed such behaviour wouldn't necessairily benefit onself. That's why humans cooperate.[/i]

hmmmm, early genus of the species Homo (like Erectus that managed to survive 2 million years) probably didn't have the brain mutation that caused "conciousness" and thus didn't feel "bad", still managed to co-operate however, as do troops of Baboon and Chimpanzee today. I don't think there's much evidence for co-operation as a result of selfishness. (as opposed to self interest)

your brain makes you feel bad about raping and pillaging because such actions are likely going affect you materially at some point, a world that allowed such behaviour wouldn't necessairily benefit onself. That's why humans cooperate.

If you really believe that you are naturally devoid of compassion and empathy - that the only thing to stop you raping people is because it would be bad for [b]you[/b] in the long run (not the victim, who assumedly is a mote of random dust in your uncaring universe?) - then I wholly recommend that your selfish self has a word with your self. 😕

Most of the vegans i know have poor health/low energy and it's usually a drama. Meat makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest. I'm a firm believer that animals are here for our benefit, although I'd like to see them treated much better in the chain.

As for the daughter - you are right people who eat poorly are susceptible to getting ill. Eating loads, as the obesity epidemic shows, and eating well are not the same thing.

I like to hang out in Mc donalds , Greggs and kebab shops to lok at all the fantastic specimens of vitality and health who gorge on meat
I have to confess i sometimes get a little bit of wood watching their wobbly carcaasses consume carcasess

As for hypocrisy many meat eaters wont eat testicles or eat rats or kill the animals themselves. Its almost as if you can call any human a hypocrite

I alos dont understand why meat eaters GAS what I eat or want to berate me for it I thought that ws my job in stereotypetrack world

Always the same trolly bollocks and the same BS "points"

Eat what you want I really dont care and leave me alone to do the same

I have chosen to be a vegan over the last 2 months and I presume I will continue as I dont find it hard at all to get the nutrition I need.

My main reasons were.

1. I have never ever looked at my diet or worried about it. Im fit as hell and do loads of riding, cardio and train hard in Ju jitsu to. However I used to fuel my body with absolute garbage. Haribo, chocolate every night and not enough greens and fruit. So i thought, Im 32 now. If i look after my body even more by fueling it right then I will hopefully reap the benefits later on.

2. to actually gain weight for ju jitsu. I've always been trim and a bit of extra weight wouldn't do any harm when fighting. It sounds strange but by actually taking an interest in what i eat it has made a small difference and will do more so when i join a gym at the end of the month.

3. I have never reacted well to dairy products . always having a blocked nose and eczema. when I have cut dairy it has cleared up . The little research I have done seems to suggest that we are the only animal that regularly drinks another's milk. I've never been bothered about cheese. But chocolate has been a hard one to not have.

Results so far after 2 months.

Loads of energy. No feeling lethargic after eating. Power is up. Smashing up hills even more with tonnes of energy for the downhills.
Weight has gonne up 0.5kg. So pretty descent. I have been taking protein ( plant based ) supplements to top up levels after training. Skin is really good. And sinus problems have disappeared.

I think being vegan is generally a good thing however you do have to concentrate on getting the right balance. I eat about 10 -12 fruit portions a day currently! Which cant be bad.

On a different not here is a little edit from surrey hills I made on sunday. To show you how badly vegans ride!

naturally devoid of compassion and empathy

I think you misunderstand his point. Compassion and empathy are personality traits which are absent in many species, so you have to analyse why most of us have them.

It is always a bit theoretical when looking at aspects of personality and society through an evolutionary perspective. But a degree of compassion and empathy must, in our case at least, confer an evolutionary advantage, probably by encouraging cooperation and producing a safer environment for the raising of young.

The animal does not need to be conscious of the advantage for it to exist.

Just because you understand that there is an underlying biological and evolutionary explanation for many human 'choices', doesn't make you a sociopath.

As far as veganism goes, it's the ultimate expression of a heightened sense of compassion. Whether this trait is an evolutionary advantage is another matter - individual humans are slightly insulated from the evolutionary consequences of many of these kind of choices.

I don't have a problem with others eating meat as long as they are realistic about where it comes from. Would you be prepared to slaughter a cow/pig and deal with the carcass etc?

i dont have a problem with vegetarianism as long as they are realistic about the impact of agribusiness and other non-food activities on the world. would you generate your own electricity and manufacture your own consumerable goods, drill for your own oil and process it in an ethical non-harmful way etc?

props to you if you opt out of all the modern inventions that impact our environment but the fact you are posting on the internet means you are complicit in raping the earth.

See it is true that eating meat makes you stupid

Just think what Einstein could have achieved if he went vegetarian earlier than the last few years of his life.

[quote=Junkyard ]I like to hang out in Mc donalds , Greggs and kebab shops to lok at all the fantastic specimens of vitality and health who gorge on meat

Where's my Vegan bingo card 😉

As for hypocrisy many meat eaters wont eat testicles or eat rats or kill the animals themselves. Its almost as if you can call any human a hypocrite

Personally I would eat most things (I wouldn't choose to eat insects and probably some other stuff - curious to know what bollox taste like though and the only thing putting me off rats is a perceived hygiene issue), and would kill and prepare animals for eating myself (I have skinned rabbits and cooked and eaten fish I've caught). Maybe that makes me less of a hypocrite than some, but then I wouldn't like to claim I'm not at all - we are all at it. I'm not sure it makes me a better person.

I have to admit that as an omnivore I mainly find this thread amusing to see the bollox spouted by other omnivores though.

Where's my Vegan bingo card

Its a pointless debate some folk want to eat meat some dont
Some of those [either side]are healthy some are not
Some of those get annoyed by the diet of the other lot and some dont
I really dont see why other folk care what other folk eat

Did she supplement propely with B12? Deficiency in that vitamin can cause skin pigmentation changes iirc, although some vegans muppets claim it's unnecessary and a conspiracy.

No of course not. Her diet could provide her with everything that she needed (apart from the bits she needed) and anyone who suggested otherwise was to be sent memes telling them why.

Everyone should, and hopefully can, eat what they want. However, if your diet (whatever it is) is potentially causing you to have medical symptoms then it's vital that a sensible discussion is had about this. Specifically with people on a vegan diet this seems to be more of a challenging concept than others. Beliefs > logic in many situations and this causes the friction with the non believers/converted.

I really dont see why other folk care what other folk eat

but seeing as eating is a daily activity why would it not be under the same scrutiny as what car you park outside your business or what you use to brew coffee with?

I alos dont understand why meat eaters GAS what I eat or want to berate me for it

Most of the vegans i know have poor health/low energy and it's usually a drama. Meat makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest. I'm a firm believer that animals are here for our benefit, although I'd like to see them treated much better in the chain.

My two daughters are both vegan. They're both in all the sports teams at school and are in the top sets in every subject. Why any parent would want to handicap their kids by making them eat meat is beyond me. Call troll if you like but I'm just being honest.

i only have three points to raise here:

1. dark green leafy veg tends to be a much better dietary source of iron than red meat anyway.

2. there's barely any (if any at all) GMO soya used to make milks available in the UK these days, but most other vegans i know use other milk subsitutes anyway (almond or coconut usually).

3. i'm regretting reading this thread.

There's a sort of strange moral nihilism gets into these threads.

Vegan - I don't eat meat
Ominvore - BUT FARMING VEGETABLES INVOLVES THE SLAUGHTER OF SEVERAL DEFENCELESS INSECTS, YOU TERRIBLE HYPOCRITE!!!! PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME SICK!!!!
Vegan - on balance, I think it's probably less bad...
OMNINVORE - THE UNIVERSE IS A HEARTLESS PLACE, FULL OF MAYHEM!!! THERE ARE NO MORAL ABSOLUTES, JUST THE IMINENT HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE, AND THEN AN INFINITY OF DARKNESS AND COLD!!!! DO YOU THINK YOUR PETTY VEGANISM WILL STOP THE HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE??? DO YOU??? WELL THEN....

It's just....odd. 😕

(IANAV)

[quote=martinhutch ]As far as veganism goes, it's the ultimate expression of a heightened sense of compassion. Whether this trait is an evolutionary advantage is another matter - individual humans are slightly insulated from the evolutionary consequences of many of these kind of choices.

Not just individuals (but then to look at evolution from the POV of individuals is to massively miss the point), but as a species evolution is now wildly distorted because the traits which tend to improve the chances of surviving to child rearing age in other species no longer have the same effect in humans. Not only that, but other completely different traits tend to result in higher numbers of children in some parts of the population than others.

If anything veganism is likely not to be an evolutionary advantage, because whatever people might say about it being straightforward to have a healthy vegan diet, there certainly appears to be a correlation (if not causation) in young women between choosing a vegan diet and having an unhealthy weight - which is known to adversely affect fertility. Of course evolution is vastly more complex than that, so there might equally be other effects which more than balance that out.

[quote=Junkyard ]I really dont see why other folk care what other folk eat

though it does provide us with some amusing anecdotes - I totally understand why you probably don't find the one I posted at the start as amusing as the rest of us did, but I'm sure if you'd been on the outside looking in you'd have appreciated the humour of the incomprehension of the restaurant staff!

Most of the vegans i know have poor health/low energy and it's usually a drama. Meat makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest.

How many vegans do you know, out of interest? Is it a number greater than "one"?

3. i'm regretting reading this thread.

I know what you mean, but they're a good reminder of the depths of idiocy and ignorance which humans are capable of.

Specifically with people on a vegan diet this seems to be more of a challenging concept than others. Beliefs > logic in many situations and this causes the friction with the non believers/converted.

It really is not the preserve of one diet or the other to be either healthy or not be eating crap. Its ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
Some meat eaters are unhealthy and they are not all pictures of vitality and the same is true of vegans. I am fairly sure its not vegans fueling the obesity and diabetes epidemic

Neither diet is healthy per se as it depends what you want to eat within that diet.

FWIW B12 is stored in your body for years so they failed to get enough when eating meat if that was the cause

The first 1.8 pages of this thread were a genuinely good read.
I read them last night and decided I'd post in the morning, but half of me thought that the thread would have descended by then.

Ah well.

Personally, I started researching veggie/vegan in the early 90s because I didn't want to be a part of factory farming. First it was battery hens, then I learnt a lot of things that didn't sit right with me.
Things that I wouldn't do, given the choice.

Also - the more I researched, the more I came to the conclusion that physically, we didn't need meat or dairy.

So since then I've done my best to be 'vegan'. That's what it's about for me - just doing my best to avoid things that I wouldn't do myself, or things that I think are harmful to the environments that I cherish.

Sometimes I'm strong. Sometimes I'm weak. Sometimes I'm informed, other times not.

I've never been remotely bothered about 'cross contamination' on things like BBQs, or fish fryers,etc because it doesn't effect the things I care about.

I have a family member who keeps chickens. I happily eat their eggs as I see nothing wrong with how they are treated or how they live. Same with a friend who keeps bees for honey.

Also - if people make an effort to provide food for me, and something isn't quite vegan, that's fine too. I'll eat it and be grateful.

As far as health goes, I don't do anything in particular apart from make sure I eat a large variety of foods. I wasn't very good at this as a student, but am now 🙂

I think the hardest part is mental. Feeling like you are up against the 'way of the world'. As MrSmith says above - there is only so much you can do without being very isolated.

One thing is for sure though - compared to 23 years ago, it's a lot easier to eat out than it was!

I [s]have[/s] had not read the first page FWIW but you get used to shit like that

Not offended and that was moderate me 8)

. dark green leafy veg tends to be a much better dietary source of iron than red meat anyway.

[quote=xherbivorex ]1. dark green leafy veg tends to be a much better dietary source of iron than red meat anyway.

Wow, this thread has finally provided one useful piece of information it seems - I didn't know that.

Though does that only apply to the basic nutritional content, or does that include how easily they are digested? I didn't think we were all that good at processing nutrients from green stuff, only having one stomach (I could be talking complete rubbish here - hoping to be educated by somebody who knows more about nutrition than me).

Most of the [s]vegans[/s] cyclists I know have poor manners, no sense, and are pussies with an angry save-the-Planet sense of moral superiority and entitlement. It's usually a drama. Driving a car makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest.

us vs them bingo all the way

Crocs vs Vans
Short hair vs long hair
Beard vs clean-shaven
Blondes vs Brunettes
26ers vs 650bers
VW vs Vauxhall
Shirts vs tees

PS just bagged a new L-shaped brick shed. With an electrical socket. With room for bikes and a workbench. Everything else is now background noise. L8rs argueraters 🙂

AlexSimon GTFO this is not the place for reasoned, reasonable discussion 😆
Personally it's just the whole moral highground, evangelising of veggies that I find irritating as I agree with Ninfan. Certain environments / eco-systems / responsible farming needs animals as part of the cycle so we need to consume animals as part of that cycle.
Ethically we need to ensure the animals have good welfare and be prepared to pay for it.
Which I think is the main issue, which applies to the Vegan/Veggie argument, is that as the world population grows the effort to keep food cheap means heavy industrialisation unless we take the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green ]Soylent Green solution[/url]

Oxalic acid and tannins inhibit bioavilibilty of iron and calcium from leafy green veg to about 25-40%.
Taking into account the low digestibility of cellulose containing material gives overall, on a per mass basis, a bioavailibilty of about 15% of the checmical analysis figures.

Personally it's just the whole moral highground, evangelising of veggies that I find irritating

This always comes up on these threads and yet the predominant voice on here is always some irate meat eaters

No one like moralising but again its not diet specific Have you read these threads on here?

you cannot be healthy if you are veggie and they are all unhealthy
let me work out why you are a hypocrite
We need meat for iron/something else
Its natural
ETC

You really dont think meat eaters are preaching and its just veggies?

Meat eating really does seem to make people stupid 😉

So since then I've done my best to be 'vegan'. That's what it's about for me - just doing my best to avoid things that I wouldn't do myself, or things that I think are harmful to the environments that I cherish.

I'm not sure the insecure anti-vegans will understand a sensible and considered position like that. You can but hope though.

How does that compare with the bioavailability of nutrients in meat, and how do the proportions of nutrients compare? The headline question is, do you get more of those nutrients from dark green leafy veg or from red meat (or is there another better option) once it's been through your digestive system?

Personally it's just the whole moral highground, evangelising of veggies that I find irritating as I agree with Ninfan.

Hopefully you can see it from our point of view. We've done something different from the norm, so it's easy for the conversation to be dragged that way, questions are asked, and it's very difficult to give answers without it sounding like I want everyone to be vegan. Obviously I do want everyone to be vegan (why wouldn't I given all the positives I think it has?), but it's taken a great many years to understand how people react to the way the subject is approached.

Certain environments / eco-systems / responsible farming needs animals as part of the cycle so we need to consume animals as part of that cycle.

Anyone who has suffered local organic veg box deliveries through winters can attest to that!

Some of the iron in meat is part of protein complexes which makes it more digestible than that in vegetables.

even if you are a hypocritical fish eating vegetarian like me
You're a pescatarian. HTH.

You're WEAK. HTH.

🙂

You really dont think meat eaters are preaching and its just veggies?

Meat eating really does seem to make people stupid

LOL. I don't think I have ever suggested anyone go veggie except in jest to my Kiwi mate.. I get FAR more traffic the other way .. 'What do you eat?' 'Where do you get protein from?' (the new fave) .. 'Oooh I just couldn't live without bacon!' .. it's very simple, I can and am quite happy to do so. It's not a self flagellation thing.

wrecker - Member

I don't either. Everybody should eat what they want, it's nobody else's business.

<sharpens knives> <looks out recipes for longpig> <starts IP trace on Wrecker>

Certain environments / eco-systems / responsible farming needs animals as part of the cycle so we need to consume animals as part of that cycle.

I don't believe that

I might get exposed to more veggi evangelising by hanging out in heebie jeebie hippie circles, so I might see more bias that way than others

[quote=nostoc ]Some of the iron in meat is part of protein complexes which makes it more digestible than that in vegetables.

Well it seems you lot agree with my gut feeling on this, but do we have a definitive answer on which is better?

whilst that might be true we dont need to consume the animals we just need to have them

Its also a self fulfilling prophecy

We have artificially made the environment [ via farming] and if we dont artificially keep it like this then something will happen- its true- but lets not pretend we have animals to protect the environment or help butterflies or that its nature at work.

Well it seems you lot agree with my gut feeling on this, but do we have a definitive answer on which is better?

Nope and you won't get one. If you read up on veggie diets though there is usually some talk of combining foods to make the most of them. Iron is a tricky one as it's difficult to get out of the best plant forms, but adding vit C (glass of orange juice, oh noes the sugar!!!!) helps absorb it better.
Fairly sure someone in ST once wrote that baked beans on wholemeal bread contain the most complete range of proteins. No idea if thats true, but I do like beans 🙂

http://www.viva.org.uk/ironing-out-facts-fact-sheet

Short version two types of iron and the non meat one MAY be better for you and non meat eaters get more of that
I think its possible a claim born from philosophy rather than science and VIVA are ,like Greenpeace is to the environmental movement, for Vegans/veggies IMHO

ANemia [ iron deficiency] is no more common in non meat eaters than meat eaters - US and BMA studies

questions are asked, and it's very difficult to give answers without it sounding like I want everyone to be vegan

Especially when the question is 'Are you vegan/veggie for health or moral reasons', which if you then answer 'moral', you are then accused of being preachy by taking the moral high ground. Which is then closely followed by a number questions designed to show you up as a hypocrite.

My standard response to this question is usually something along the lines of..

"Because I couldn't personally cut the throat of a pig/cow/lamb, so I don't expect others to do it for me. The moral superiority and improved health are just beneficial side effects."

Its a pointless debate some folk want to eat meat some dont
Some of those [either side]are healthy some are not
Some of those get annoyed by the diet of the other lot and some dont
I really dont see why other folk care what other folk eat

I dunno, people who are vegetarian because they 'don't believe animals should be killed/mistreated for our food' who eat mass-produced eggs and milk do grind my gears a little. You can say it's personal choice etc but those people do surely on some level believe themselves to be morally superior to those who eat meat. I would like to say I only eat meat from free-range relatively ethical sources (I try with varying degrees of success). I reckon if I stuck to that and didn't eat any mass produced milk or eggs it would arguably be causing less suffering to animals than a veggie who eats mass produced eggs and milk.

So to me vegetarianism seems a bit of a halfway house that makes people feel like they are doing good but the amount of good is often questionable, IMO. Vegans on the other hand I genuinely admire and more of us should eat like that more of the time definitely.

The moral superiority and improved health are just beneficial side effects.

So to me vegetarianism seems a bit of a halfway house that makes people feel like they are doing good but the amount of good is often questionable,

Of course it's a halfway house. But the logic that you shouldn't be vegetarian because you're not capapble/willing to be vegan is a bit silly. Every vegan and vegetarian I know accepts that it's impossible to be morally pure on this subject. The choice to be either is a conscious choice to do something positive, whilst accepting the limitations. Would it be more acceptable to say 'I eat meat because there's no point in giving up as I can never achieve moral purity and I don't want to be a hypocrite'?

Well it seems you lot agree with my gut feeling on this, but do we have a definitive answer on which is better?

trying to put aside my obvious bias (with the same disclaimer as junkyard that i genuinely do not care what anyone else chooses to eat or not eat), a well balanced omnivorous diet should have a way higher proportion of veg to meat than that of most omnivores anyway, so it wouldn't really be an issue i'd have thought?

personally speaking, i've not eaten meat or dairy for around 27 years now and never had issues with iron deficiency. i do eat a lot of spinach, broccoli, kale etc though... so it seems to work for me.

That's a bit like some people don't believe in evolution - how do you think the South Downs get mown? Without the 'mowing' how do you think the Chalkhill Blue butterfly would do?

A large amount of government spending goes into subsidising farming based on the same thought process. i.e. that farmers are the custodians of our landscape and that if we don't subsidise every hedge/drystone wall/fallow field/etc then the money-making alternative will be worse. It may be the case, but we seem to be very protective of very recent history without much thought to what alternatives could be better/more natural.

(glass of orange juice, oh noes the sugar!!!!) helps absorb it better

is there a better local source than the ones flown in from Spain? so transport pollution and irrigation issues to consider there.

[url= https://gsoil.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/the-impact-of-citrus-production-an-approach-from-the-soil-system/ ]https://gsoil.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/the-impact-of-citrus-production-an-approach-from-the-soil-system/[/url]

Most of the vegans i know have poor health/low energy and it's usually a drama. Meat makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest.

Odd. Most of the meat eaters I know are overweight, and the majority of those over 50 have heart problems. They also cause a drama every time I quietly order the vegetarian option on the menu, yet I say nothing about their menu choice.

Poor diet makes you weak/poor health. By your logic, eating this everyday

[img] [/img]

is going to make you healthier a stronger than eating this?

[img] [/img]

So meat equals shit fast food? Have a word....you're [i]exactly[/i] as bad as the anti veggies....

I'll rephrase - by artificial do you mean man-made?
So an eco-system that has been around for around 4000 years, probably much more, is 'artificial'?
Current understanding suggests there are few eco-systems (including the Amazon basin and the American mid-west) that are un-influenced (at minimum) or essentially created (at maximum) by man.
Ergo the whole world is an artifical system.

I agree, but you seemed to be posting it as a justification for continued animal farming, whereas I don't see that.

Personally it's just the whole moral highground, evangelising of veggies that I find irritating as I agree with Ninfan.

Does that actually happen a lot to you, or have you just made it up?

I think I've met, ooh, two preachy veggies in my life. One was a fruitloop who cut something else out of her diet whenever she was ill, which was most of the time because she kept eating less and less. The other was some random woman in a pub who was loudly playing the "meat is murder" card to anyone who would listen. I had a most entertaining debate with her, deconstructing her half-baked ideas, it was like being on the Internet. She'd assumed I was a meat eater and took that as point of attack. The look on her face was priceless when I revealed 20 minutes in that I'd been vegetarian for considerably longer than she had.

Mostly though, the 'preachy' ones IME are the omnivores who have never really given their diet any thought whatsoever and stuff whatever crap down that they've always eaten, yet feel obliged to mansplain about incisors or depth perception, or how they knew a vegan who had a cold once, or some other ill-informed rot. Pretty much every vegetarian / vegan I know just wants to get through life without having to have the same gods damned discussion every. single. time. we eat out. You eat what you want, I'll eat what I want, simples.

And the reason we're discussing it now? Because an omnivore asked us to explain it. We're not explaining it to be preachy, we're not explaining it to give you something to attack (and believe me, we've heard it all before and it gets weary), we're not explaining it to justify our diets or to evangelise (though most people could do to think more about what they eat, veggie or not), we're explaining because [i]someone bloody well asked us to.[/i]

So to me vegetarianism seems a bit of a halfway house that makes people feel like they are doing good but the amount of good is often questionable, IMO. Vegans on the other hand I genuinely admire and more of us should eat like that more of the time definitely.

You haven't read the whole thread, have you. You're assuming, incorrectly, that there is only reason not to eat meat.

is going to make you healthier a stronger than eating this?

If I ate that every day I'm pretty confident I'd explode!

So meat equals shit fast food? Have a word....you're exactly as bad as the anti veggies....

I believe he was just demonstrating a point, which is broadly what Junkyard was saying. You can have a good or a bad diet as a vegan; a good or a bad diet as a vegetarian; or a good or a bad diet as a meat eater. The two are not intrinsically linked.

Or, being a meat eater does not necessarily negate your right to make sensible comments about someone else's dietary choices; however if your diet does mostly consist of [i]crap[/i] meat then you're in no position to be judgemental about someone else.

So an eco-system that has been around for around 4000 years, probably much more, is 'artificial'?

4000 years is nothing. Even in that period though the landscape was radically different to what it is now, largely due to industry, farming, and our obsession with keeping things tidy.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/27/my-manifesto-rewilding-world ]It could be very different though.[/url]. I'd much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds.

[quote=xherbivorex ]a well balanced omnivorous diet should have a way higher proportion of veg to meat than that of most omnivores anyway, so it wouldn't really be an issue i'd have thought?

It's not an issue, I was just curious about the accuracy of your claim, given that I was immediately struck by one possible issue which I wasn't sure had been factored in to the comparison 😉

I don't doubt that with a properly healthy diet it is possible to get all the nutrients you need, whether that diet is vegan, vegetarian, omnivore or carnivorous (actually I can see how you might struggle on some things with the latter). I'm also sure that despite eating rather less meat than the average person I still eat a lot more than I need to (I sometimes used to have a meat free month - mostly vegetarian, but fish a couple of times a week - haven't managed that since having kids who I'm afraid have been brought up to enjoy eating meat - and I've not yet made them kill their own dinner either). Though the main issue with my diet is my propensity to snack on biscuits and the like - they're certainly not vegan, but I don't think that's what makes them bad for me.

I think all those of us on this thread capable of using our brains also agree that the health issue isn't the headline category of the diet, as it is possible to have a good or bad diet whichever of those categories you choose.

So meat equals shit fast food? Have a word....you're exactly as bad as the anti veggies....

Not at all, I was highlighting the poor diet choice as the key component to the argument that I was responding to. Be it a meat based, or meat free diet. You found teh obvious flaw in the argument though - well spotted 😉

I don't give a shit about other peoples diet choices and don't preach about them, neither do the majority of vegetarians that I know (which is quite a lot).

Edit: Cougar got it 8)

If I ate that every day I'm pretty confident I'd explode!

I'm pretty confident one end of me would.

The choice to be either is a conscious choice to do something positive, whilst accepting the limitations. Would it be more acceptable to say 'I eat meat because there's no point in giving up as I can never achieve moral purity and I don't want to be a hypocrite'?

That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm saying it's possible to take steps to be more ethical in your consumption of food - 'do something positive' - that don't necessarily involve being vegetarian. And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don't think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

I know quite a few vegetarians who eat more eggs than most meat-eaters. Whilst these are usually free-range they are also usually mass-produced supermarket eggs. I don't think they have thought through how many animals are being killed to produce those eggs.

I'm not saying 'either be perfect or do nothing' I'm saying don't make potentially tokenistic gestures to make yourself feel better, have a really good think and do some research about the impact your consumption has. I know many people have done this, but quite a lot haven't IMO. It seems to me often like an emotional reaction of 'I don't want to harm the cute animals' rather than a logical/ethical position, which is how it's presented.

@Cougar - yes I have thanks - I'm obviously talking about those who don't eat meat for 'moral' reasons.

Actually further to my above post, I'm wondering when I last managed a day without eating some form of meat or fish (though I struggle to feel any level of guilt about the latter). Should try a bit harder, but it's tricky when you've reared kids who demand their meat.

That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm saying it's possible to take steps to be more ethical in your consumption of food - 'do something positive' - that don't necessarily involve being vegetarian. And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don't think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

Would it be more acceptable to say 'I eat meat because there's no point in giving up as I can never achieve moral purity and I don't want to be a hypocrite'?

Kind of like worrying about the environment and buying a [i]slightly[/i] smaller engined car.
But theres other reasons to be veggie

Does that actually happen a lot to you, or have you just made it up?

But yeah it's all a compromise and the comparison of "ethical" omni diet vs bog standard veggie diet is probably arguable anyway

is going to make you healthier a stronger than eating this?