[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

Don't put her onion bhajis on the same plate as the chicken wings.

It's simple, you just avoid eating anything that casts a shadow

Like any belief system, it only makes sense to the converted 😉

Also is she allowed to sit on our leather sofas? (Ok that ones a joke)

Not if she's serious!

Surely if a food stuff is harvested ethically that's OK right?

It's down to animal rights and welfare, iirc getting the honey stresses out the bees, and dairy cows die if they aren't milked, sheep are bred for their wool and get into trouble if they're not clipped.

I view a lot of it as almost a form of reverse ludditeism*, as to make up for the lack of leather/wool they tend to use synthetic fibres/materials made from oil, which seem to be less repairable/durable than good old fashioned wool/leather.

*My view may be clouded by the only vegan I knew for any length of time using it as a front for anorexia 🙁

Aracer, norhhwind I've tried those gags they didn't go down very well with her . . .

😳

Avoid anything that involves animals or their exploitation . Chickens don't chose to lay eggs for consumption cows don't consent to being enslaved and manipulated to provide constant milk bees had big plans for that honey they worked to create.
You are a natural being in a natural world with that comes responsibilities one of which is not to exploit other creatures for your own pleasure or advantage .
Easy to see what is required by a vegan even if you are a hypocritical fish eating vegetarian like me (yes I know eating the flesh of fish means I am NOT A vegetarian)

What do you think happens to all the male chicks that are born from egg laying breeds of hens?

crankboy - Member

Avoid anything that involves animals or their exploitation

Best not to think about all the animals that get smushed by combine harvesters when enjoying some vegan toast (or whatever it is that vegans eat).

bees had big plans for that honey they worked to create

😆 That made me laugh out loud. I'd be fairly cheesed off too if some giant regularly ripped the roof off of my house and stole all the food from my refrigerator.

In seriousness, have you tried asking her? We can hypothesise but she's the only one who will actually know why she personally is doing it.

Is she going directly from omnivore > vegan, incidentally? I'd really recommend doing it in stages so that it's not a shock to the system and you can isolate the cause of any problems (when I went vegetarian it was probably over two years and I was never a big meat eater to start with).

It's perfectly possible to have a safe, sensible vegan diet but abruptly reducing most of your food groups and not replacing them with anything else is probably destined to either make her poorly or have her fall off the wagon a fortnight later.

even if you are a hypocritical fish eating vegetarian like me

You're a pescatarian. HTH.

I'd hate to have to eat nothing but fish. It would be a bit boring to be a pescatarian.

Are you here all week?

I am, yes. Is that ok with you?

Please explain Veganism to me . . .

you mean they haven't already?

aracer - Member
Don't put her onion bhajis on the same plate as the chicken wings.

Society has now more or less got the hang of dealing with vegetarians, ie. Nutroast on the menu at Christmas, a 2nd bbq gets lit in the summer.

This means that [i]being[/i] a vegetarian has lost it's main appeal: being a colossal pain in the arse.

Enter veganism.

(Yes, you now need 3 bbq's)

[s]Ninja edit: I claim The Edinburgh Defense!
[/s]

Ninja edit retracted in light of crankboys post below.

"aracer - Member
Don't put her onion bhajis on the same plate as the chicken wings."
Barbecues are the real tester we have had dos with three separate fires vegan ,fish and meat .
We just did our sons birthday catering for vegan vegetarian nut+ allergy and "high vegan" that was interesting both to google "high vegan " and shop for. Intersting making a child acceptable but nut free vegan chocolate cake in the shape of a bin lorry.

The real ale restrictions would do for me!

Also is she allowed to sit on our leather sofas? (Ok that ones a joke)

I know a vegan who won a brand new BMW in a competition. It arrived with leather seats and they refused to accept it. An alternative was not proffered.

Check out vegan sidekick for all you need to know. His books make great, if sweary, stocking fillers for the ethically inclined who could do with some support with their chosen lifestyle.

Veganism seems a much more logical ethical position than being a vegetarian.

OP, before this descends into pointscoring between the usual suspects, a quick tip - get your daughter cooking. You don't mention her age, but I went vegan at 15 or 16 and my mum refused to cook for me. I started muddling through recipes on the back of lentil packets etc, until an aunt bought me a couple of vegan cookbooks - best thing anyone's ever bought me. Cookbooks are a little redundant these days with the amount of vegan food blogs around, get her looking at those.

Nutrition wise, there's nothing to worry about providing she had a balanced diet pre veganism. When I've seen people struggle with going vegan, it's generally been because their previous diet hid a multitude of sins (meat and dairy are nutritionally denser than plant foods), but generally if you eat enough varied foods to get the calorie requirement met, the other requirements fall into place pretty much by default. Be sure she supplements with a quality B12 (can't rememember which, but I think you're better off with methylcobalamin, Solgar make one), something like a bit of flax oil wouldn't go amiss.

Ethics wise, you'd better ask her 🙂

I know a vegan who won a brand new BMW in a competition. It arrived with leather seats and they refused to accept it.

That's quite impressive. I won a pig's leg in a mtb race, politely turned it down and was offered a huge wheel of fetid cheese instead.

I was showing a vegan friend and her family around my bee hives the other week, and was showing them with an empty hive how the colony works, how I extract the honey, etc, and the vegan recoiled at a squished bee between the wooden layers.

Apparently it was the dead bee bit she objected to, rather than the 'exploitation' side of things. I asked if she'd eat honey if I could guarantee no bee was killed - which is pretty much impossible - she said yes.

Kinda ironic as I don't really eat honey 😮 (suppose it's like working in a chocolate factory or something)

+1 for b12 suppliment and ramp on the iron too -deep green veg. Holland and Barrett do a good vegan suppliment vitamin pill. I drift in and out of vegetarianism and tbh when i'm on the meat wagon and riding a lot I do feel weaker, but that's my crap veg diet... good luck to her - good to see some young 'uns with their own ethics.

Vegan means eating anything that has any animal produce in it or made by it. Basically you do not eat or wear anything that has had a face. Which means no cake, biscuits, cheese, eggs, milk etc. It is a very hard lifestyle to live unless you cook everything from scratch with vegan margarine, vegan cheese (which does not melt but creates a leathery skin) etc you have to scrutinise packets every time you buy them as retailers often change ingredients.
I am a lacto-ovo veggie which means I eat dairy & eggs but not fish and even I sometimes I find eating out can be a real PITA.
I would not have a leather sofa etc, but I do wear leather shoes/boot; I do not have any (fashion) leather /suede jackets - I did try fake leather shoes but they made my feet sweat and smell, which is never nice when you can smell them as you walk along. There is lot of pork or beef gelatine in a lot of food produce, e.g. (bought) profiteroles, marshmallows, a lot of sweets this is made from boiling down the bones so is strictly off limits.
I am happy to handle & cook meat but I know a lot of vegetarians aren't but then I have been veggie for 26 years, I became veggie due to the way animals were treated back in the 80's. l also dabbled with Vegan I lasted about 2 weeks as it was so hard however I do like my eggs, cheese, butter, cake, biscuits etc. I think if animals were treated as well now then I would probably just eat free range & organic but then everything was farmed to increase productivity rather than looking after the welfare of animals.
There are some great vegetarian recipes and maybe the best thing would be to get a vegetarian recipe book like "Food for Thought" written by vegetarians that specify if recipes can be made vegan and how.

https://www.youtube.com/user/durianriders

https://www.youtube.com/user/Freelea

I've also wondered about this.

Genuinely not a troll and this comes from someone who has been veggie in the past but do true vegans consider the animal products which may have been used to fertilise the crops they eat? What about land clearance for soya, Palm oil, nut plantations? Environmental impact of synthetic fertilisers?

I salute anyone who does but I think it must be really difficult to have a diet that has nil impact on animal life.

The real ale restrictions

[img] [/img]

Don't put her onion bhajis on the same plate as the chicken wings.

Now where have I heard that one before?

Ah yes, I remember!

I salute anyone who does but I think it must be really difficult to have a diet that has nil impact on animal life.

Most vegans would agree. That's why every vegan I know, which is a lot, looks at it more as a lifestyle choice to aim for rather than a black and white label. It's impossible completely avoid products with animal products in them or which have an impact on animals. It's just another label, which is not to be taken too literally.

Having been a veggie all my life (I eat eggs/dairy, but not meat/fish. Yes my parents were veggie, but it has always been my choice. Now I'm the awkward veggie that goes round for dinner!) I have been contemplating going vegan recently. I think people in general just need to think more not just about what they eat, but where it comes from

What about land clearance for soya, Palm oil, nut plantations? Environmental impact of synthetic fertilisers?

This is a big one - palm oil is one of the worst offenders, and I try to avoid anything with it in the ingredients, but the meat industry is far worse. Looking at the amount of land required vs the calorific output of the food produced, being veggie/vegan is much more efficient and less polluting.

I don't have a problem with others eating meat as long as they are realistic about where it comes from. Would you be prepared to slaughter a cow/pig and deal with the carcass etc?

Veganism seems a much more logical ethical position than being a vegetarian.

I salute anyone who does but I think it must be really difficult to have a diet that has nil impact on animal life.

Thing is, it's not an all-or-nothing option. It's like arguing that it's pointless recycling newspapers because you drive a car or fly in aeroplanes. Sure, engines may well have a bigger impact on the environment, but that doesn't mean that recycling is suddenly worthless. Someone being veggie for ethical reasons will have to choose their priorities and live their lives accordingly. Not eating beef won't do anything for the poor fluffy baa-lambs, but it's considerably better for the cows.

As you say though, it's probably impossible to have zero impact, there's always another level to go to. I've read of people who won't eat sugar because some refining techniques use bone meal (even though none of it ends up in the final product). So we - well, they - have to do what they can and decide as individuals where to draw the line.

I don't have a problem with others eating meat as long as they are realistic about where it comes from. Would you be prepared to slaughter a cow/pig and deal with the carcass etc?

I've always thought the same, but then for me the answer is "no" which is a large part of why I'm vegetarian. If I couldn't handle the wetwork then it'd be monumentally hypocritical of me me cheerfully chow down on it so long as someone cuts it into handy pieces and wraps it in shrink-wrap first.

At what point does it stop being icky and start being food? It's either nasty or it's not, surely? I could never rationalise that personally, which is largely why I don't eat it (and why I'm not one of Those veggies who goes to pieces at the prospect of a bacon butty). The very idea revolts me.

As I've got older and more of a tree-hugger the ethical side of meat-eating has become more important, but that wasn't my initial motivation and hence why veganism wasn't for me. I'll happily buy leather shoes because, unless I've spectacularly lost an argument I thought I was certain about, I don't generally eat my shoes.

Real ale restrictions??? whats not allowed in beer

Water
Malted barley
Hops
Yeast

cant see owt animal there

Finings if you need to use em are animal or fish based but never needed them

Finings is the big one I think, yes. Might not need it in homebrew but most commercial beers and wines use it still, I believe. Can't think of anything else offhand.

homebrew uses seaweed (same stuff, or an extract of, is used for vegan "gelatin")

did spot a wine labeled as vegan wine just this evening in the local "bio" food store. so I guess that means most wine still use fish guts, but some micro-vintners use presumably something similar to home brewers.

certainly seen some pretty cloudy beers out there, so I guess there are many that don't bother with clearing agents, although I don't know of any that state they're vegan, when in fact many (or even most) probably are.

more than happy to skin a bunny, or snare my dinner.
and I refuse to believe a word durianrider says, after the one video I watched basically was trying to tell me that baa-sheep and moo-cows were carnivorous. sure promote veganism, but don't talk BS to justify it.

@cougar and Tom - thanks for the responses - as I said I'm genuinely interested in how vegans square this and your replies have helped.

For my own part I do eat meat but not all the time - we eat veggie / vegan a lot, and when we do eat meat we do make the effort to buy locally produced or high welfare stuff that we know the provenience of. At the moment we have lamb in the freezer which was raised on the open moor about 2 miles from our house by good friends of ours and I'm comfortable with that.

And yes, I do think there is an argument for understanding the process from field to table if you eat meat, and again that's somethimg I'm comfortable with ethically.

Out of interest what do you think about the landscape impact? Where I live (Dartmoor) would look very different if it had not been actively grazed by animals ultimately destined for the table over centuries. There is a movement locally to promote pony meat in an effort to improve the welfare of hill ponies who otherwise have no economic value.

As you say neither end of the spectrum is black and white.

sure promote veganism, but don't talk BS to justify it.

Aye. There's a lot of propaganda and misinformation about. PETA for one aren't doing anyone any favours. Like any demographic, it's the vocal extremist minority who give the rest a bad name.

Out of interest what do you think about the landscape impact?

It's difficult to say for sure as we're speculating. I've read various studies that suggest that wholesale vegetarianism isn't viable; ie, if everyone went veggie tomorrow there isn't sufficient land in the world to support it. How true that is I'm not sure, but whatever negatives being carnivorous may have, it is at least efficient. Being omnivore may actually be the true ethical decision, but I'm happy that we live in a society where we all have the luxury of choice.

There are plenty of bottled vegan beers but few cask ones. Exceptions include Sam smiths, Hastings Brewery and Brass Castle

Out of interest what do you think about the landscape impact? Where I live (Dartmoor) would look very different if it had not been actively grazed by animals ultimately destined for the table over centuries.

I struggle to understand the concept of maintaining animal agriculture to preserve a non-natural landscape like grazed hills or enclosed farms. Seems a bit silly to me but I guess some people like it. I generally look at places like the lake district or the Pennines and think how amazing they would be if still forested.

if everyone went veggie tomorrow there isn't sufficient land in the world to support it.

You think there wouldn't be enough land saved from not having to feed cows all that grain?

I guess it depends on your definition of natural. Here the forests were mostly stripped for industry and shipbuilding rather than grazing but that process started in the Bronze Age - if it wasn't grazed / burned now it would revert to a pretty mono cultural gorse/scrubland.

I'm not sure I get the argument that if you eat meat you should be prepared to slaughter the animal yourself. Why?

In our society, we don't do everything for ourselves, we each contribute a service. We don't all make our own clothes, build our own houses, repair our own cars, fit our own boilers, grow our own crops, educate our own children, etc.
We have people who are trained to slaughter animals humanely and hygienically in purpose-built places.
How would it work if every meat eater had to kill the animals they eat themselves?

Question.

Are Vegans allowed to eat Figs ❓

My teenage daughter started following a vegan diet about 18 months ago. She ate loads but still got quite thin, and started getting problems with her skin and circulation, and her periods stopped. The doctor persuaded her to reintroduce some meat (locally bred, free range) and eggs/dairy into her diet and she is back to normal, and obviously not a vegan any more. Maybe something to keep an eye on if as she's a similar age?

https://www.youtube.com/user/Freelea

Is that the nice young lady who made the video saying that non-vegans shouldn't be allowed to live. Including her own family. I'm not sure she is the ideal role model for the OP's daughter!

Are they allowed wafer thin ham?

I'm not sure I get the argument that if you eat meat you should be prepared to slaughter the animal yourself. Why?

It won't take many days with no food before the squeamish start sharpening the knife set.

I'm not sure I get the argument that if you eat meat you should be prepared to slaughter the animal yourself. Why?

I'm not saying that you should [i]have [/i]to, rather that it seems odd to me if you wouldn't be prepared to. I wouldn't build my own house, but if I were stranded on a desert island I'd be happy to make my own shelter. Fat lot of good it'd do me though cos I'd probably starve to death. (-:

Are Vegans allowed to eat Figs

Vegans are allowed to eat anything they like. What they choose to eat is individual preference, labels are for the convenience of everyone else.

What's wrong with figs? That's a new one on me.

My teenage daughter started following a vegan diet about 18 months ago. She ate loads but still got quite thin, and started getting problems with her skin and circulation, and her periods stopped.

The problem there isn't a vegan diet, it's a [i]poor[/i] vegan diet (and poor advice from a doctor who isn't a dietician). Plus, like I said at the outset, suddenly making massive changes to your diet is probably a bad idea; I'd probably be sick as a dog if I abruptly started on a predominantly meaty diet.

It won't take many days with no food before the squeamish start sharpening the knife set.

In honesty, I don't know. I don't believe that I would, but in desperate times who knows what folk might be driven to. It's moot either way though as we live in a first world country where we have the privilege of choice.

Similarly with Vickypea's comment; she doesn't [i]have [/i]to deal with the wetwork because society takes care of that, I just find it difficult to rationalise a situation where someone would be squeamish about it and yet still eat it if someone else did it for them.

Not saying it's wrong per sé, I just don't get it.

nostoc - Member
There are plenty of bottled vegan beers but few cask ones. Exceptions include Sam smiths, Hastings Brewery and Brass Castle

I work at a brewery and we have have had exactly 2 enquiries about vegan beer in 8 years. There are non-fish alternatives but with no demand there's no commercial reason to change.

A lot of craft keg beer is vegan as it's filtered, not fined.

Ah yes, here she is:

Going vegan may be "ethical", but apparently there is a slight risk that it'll turn you into a complete fruit loop.

(MaximBady has the best response to this video but it is a little sweary so I'll just post it as a link:

)

I'm not knocking veganism Cougar, I have nothing against it at all, I'm just mentioning that as it seemed pertinent to the OP's situation, no more than that.

What's wrong with figs?

I have total faith that this article isn't at all missleading http://www.mirror.co.uk/usvsth3m/disgusting-reason-figs-arent-vegetarian-5472769

I'm not knocking veganism Cougar, I have nothing against it at all, I'm just mentioning that as it seemed pertinent to the OP's situation, no more than that.

No, I get that. I was just clarifying that (IMHO) the advice should be "do it carefully / properly" rather than "don't do it."

In honesty, I don't know. I don't believe that I would, but in desperate times who knows what folk might be driven to.

#Alive #Uruguay

GrahamS - Consider that she may have been a complete fruitloop anyway before becoming vegan

I have total faith that this article isn't at all missleading

Well quite. However, I found a better source.

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/insects/fig-wasp.htm

So the answer to the question "are figs vegan" is:

If you're vegan for ethical reasons then "yes," as the wasp thing is a natural part of evolution rather than involving cruelty / exploitation. Without figs there would be no fig wasps, and vice versa.

If you're vegan because you don't want to eat animal products then the answer is "maybe," as the wasp is wholly digested by the fruit and converted into proteins.

If you're vegan and don't eat anything that's remotely seen an animal once (see my sugar example earlier) then it's probably "no."

Does that answer the question? Fascinating reading incidentally, I had no idea. Sincerely, thanks for that, I've learned something today.

" I'd probably be sick as a dog if I abruptly started on a predominantly meaty diet."
At about 19 I went from meat eating to vegetarian with no ill effects quite the opposite ,by contrast about a year and a bit later I had a month of eating a very good quality meat based diet and got incredibly ill plus my teeth ached from all the chewing.
Going vegan however involves a major change in the sources of nourishment and vitamins as has been said above to go vegan healthily requires a lot of care and knowledge to manage the change.

Heh

[img] [/img]

The reason people are often vegan is because of their beliefs when it comes to the use/killing of animals, and I can see the thinking.

Unfortunately these beliefs can become very dogmatic and a sensible discussion on the merits/drawbacks can be hard.

I had a neighbour who has been a vegan for 20+ years and is very militant about it. She also suffers from a long term skin pigmentation disorder. She commented once that she believed her condition was caused by an immunisation jab, again around 20 years ago. I gave the analogy of "it's like you filling a petrol car with diesel for 20 years and then blaming the fact it's gone wrong on the fragrance of the air freshener".

It didn't go well. Refusing to talk to me for a year. Posting completely non science based scare stories and tagging me on social media. I just ignored it all, and then had to block her account in the end. This from a neighbour. I enjoy the evidence based discussion around the benefits/downsides of different diet choices, but this was more religious fervour than anything.

It won't take many days with no food before the squeamish start sharpening the knife set.

I'd eat what the animals are eating. Or did we start eating carnivores suddenly?

The fig wasp/animals killed by combine harvester thing is easily compared to building a road - we accept that some people will be killed on that road but our intention is not to harm people. There is a moral difference between this and setting out to kill humans.

I had a neighbour who has been a vegan for 20+ years and is very militant about it. She also suffers from a long term skin pigmentation disorder.

Did she supplement propely with B12? Deficiency in that vitamin can cause skin pigmentation changes iirc, although some [s]vegans[/s] muppets claim it's unnecessary and a conspiracy.

Have a look at Oh She Glows for great vegan recipes. I'm an omnivore but I've become increasingly interested in whole foods and healthy eating and this blog has some really yummy, nutritious recipes. I just love food basically and so wanted to explore all kinds of it! Chia seeds are great.

I'd eat what the animals are eating. Or did we start eating carnivores suddenly?

It was meant, with pretty much zero seriousness, to be a "well if there was only meat on the menu" like some sort of weird post apocalyptic world with no vegetation left. But plenty of curiously well preserved animal carcasses.

"The fig wasp" similar story

Real ale restrictions??? whats not allowed in beer

Water
Malted barley
Hops
Yeast

cant see owt animal there

Finings if you need to use em are animal or fish based but never needed them

I used to work in a maltings. You'd be surprised how much insect, mouse, rat and pigeon you are consuming with your malt product 😯

Best not to think about all the animals that get smushed by combine harvesters when enjoying some vegan toast (or whatever it is that vegans eat).

Nevermind the millions of animals killed by pesticides in the growing of vegetables, only they are invertebrates and not fluffy wuffy charismatic megafauna, so it's fine to kill them and still be vegan, isn't it?

I'm trying to figure out if Junkyard is not on the forum tonight, or desperately trying not to get drawn in

Seems to be about how you define vegan. Most, if not all, food production results in animal harm and death and most, if not all, vegans will use products that come from animal products. Its just where you draw that line. We eat meat but make a conscious effort to buy higher welfare and higher eco food. Just our arbitrary rules.

I'm going to address the OP, then add a few remarks that mostly reinforce what some others have said.

mitsumonkey - Member
Our eldest daughter has recently become a vegan, which is fine by us so long as she gets a balanced diet. My problem is I don't understand the whole concept, why can't she have honey? Free range farm eggs what's wrong with eating them? Surely if a food stuff is harvested ethically that's OK right?
I'm confused by it all, please help . . .
Also is she allowed to sit on our leather sofas? (Ok that ones a joke)

Cheers

POSTED 3 HOURS

If animal welfare is one of the reasons why someone is vegan then the issue they have with free range is probably similar to the issue dairy farming. That issue being the farming process in its entirety. For example male chickens are not very good at laying eggs..... This means they are not particularly wanted, so in the hatchery they are sorted and the males have their beaks cut off before being thrown into a massive blender while still alive. Those who have seen chicken run will remember that when hens stop laying they are killed to make the process economically viable. Male cows from dairy herds are killed young and cows that are spent are also killed.

Link below to a youtube video but it's not very child friendly.

I would reinforce the point about needing a good diet, you have to consider it a lot more as a vegan especially things like protein, iron, and omega fats. For example you need to make sure you get the full spectrum of amino acids, so you can't just eat wheat products or rice products. The easiest way to get adequate protein is to just have soya protein shakes(tastes like crap). Flax seed is a good source of omegas. You also need to work out what sort of calories you are eating it's quite easy to fall below what you need especially if you are doing sport.

After living with a vegan (she quietly goes about her business, doesn't eat meat or dairy, one exception being our friends happy rescue chicken eggs, so she somehow falls foul of everyone. (Obscure dad joke to be had there somewhere, I warrant)

Reason - 'mostly for personal ethical/animal welfare reasons, and never liked red meat anyway'

Additionally, for over 10 years I can confirm that she is mostly 'defined' by many who most certainly aren't vegans and are quite vocal about the whole subject if they learn of her horrific and attention-grabbing personal decision not to eat 99.999% of animal products. Eyes roll in the pub, around the family table etc etc. Even after all these years, you'd think that just serving vegetables or even a vegan sausage wouldn't be such a shock, but they only buy in for the meat eaters of the family and apologise to her every time. 'I'm sorry, but we bought you some salad ('salad' for my family is garnish ie two leaves of iceberg lettuce, 3 slices of cucumber and a tomato and no dressing whatsoever) - are you sure you'll be alright?

Like this:

[img] [/img]

I'm trying to figure out if Junkyard is not on the forum tonight, or desperately trying not to get drawn in

he must be away, the onion bhaji/chicken wing thing would've attracted him I'm sure.

FWIW, my mate's a 'vegetarian'. Somewhat. He won't eat meat ( except chicken very occasionally, & very crispy bacon) but he's a sea & trout angler, & has just got a Goshawk to hunt game, which he'll give away.

[IMG] [/IMG]

A lot of the 'save the planet' arguments are borne out of the American intensive cattle farming system, which is largely cereal based, unlike the more extensive and grass based system in the UK, where a lot of the marginal land used for sheep grazing etc. would otherwise be unproductive (rather than turned over to other forms of agriculture as relied on in the 'x% of the worlds agricultural land' arguments.

another missed point is that in a rotational agricultural system, the use of nitrogen fixing fodder crops and grazing animals is an important stage in improving productivity for other crops, you can't just keep turning out cereal crops year after year without pretty extreme amounts of nitrogen based fertilisers, which of course carry their own environmental impact.

Done right, meat eating is entirely sustainable and beneficial to societyt - a lot of the claims made about vegan idem are really quite spurious. Probably one of the worst being about how bad milk is - given their preferred alternative is drinking a GMO bean, I do wonder if they really think they should be taken seriously.

Male cows from dairy herds are killed young

Mmmmmm, veal...

I do wonder if they really think they should be taken seriously.

Makes sweeping generalisation after making differentiations in first two paragraphs. Ah well, it is Zulu. It's to be expected from his likes.

Figs are where we get facon from

given their preferred alternative is drinking a GMO bean, I do wonder if they really think they should be taken seriously.

Who is they? Is that 'they' as in 'them', as in 'those' bloody cyclists? I do wonder who they think they are in their lycra-lout wear 😉

Generalising/strawman-ing aside - my pet vegan drinks coconut milk and hemp milk in her tea. She also disavows Alpro as they are part of a massive dairy operation. Neither does she like the taste of soya milk. Never liked drinking milk actually so isn't missing out. Only thing she misses is cheese.

It's not wholly unlikely that many of those vegans who choose to be so in order to exercise personal ethical beliefs/choices actually know a fair bit about GMO, palm oil, deforestation, giant agri-corp etc.

There is definitely a trend to stereotype vegans (and veggies) as majorly hypocritical, precious, PITA, affected numbskulls.

^. edit *discontinued purchasing Alpro.

Back to my beer with fish guts methinks...