[Closed] Plane crash in the alps

Sure but what's your point LHS?

Its quite natural for people to pissed a someone who takes other people with him on a suicide mission, and quite hard to understand any justification for it, shirly?

I don't think we'll ever know what happened, not 100%, but it currently looks like he murdered 149 people.

I suspect the co-pilot had a grudge or was trying to prove some kind of point.

Mindless speculation is a waste of time and most unwise. That seems to be all this thread is [ apologies to those saying the same thing to the wild speculations being aired here]

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn't calculated and he didn't murder 149 people and people are trying to suggest we should have sympathy for him. I disagree.

We do know his relationship with the pilot wasn't great from the voice recorder. One case of suicide, one of murder and 148 of manslaughter.

Mindless speculation [b]is a waste of time and most unwise.[/b]

So is watching TV, but millions still do it....

[quote=Junkyard ]Mindless speculation is a waste of time and most unwise. That seems to be all this thread is [ apologies to those saying the same thing to the wild speculations being aired here]

Well in the middle there was some stuff about practicalities of current cabin doors and other similar incidents and other interesting stuff. I'm hoping if I just ignore the wild speculators demonstrating their empathy we might be able to get back to that.

a significant clue as to what has happened had been found during the search of his house ...

on a side note...Apparently the captain tried to break down the door with an axe. An emergency axe is apparently part of the equipment onboard the plane. Anyone else find it worrying that there is an axe stored somewhere on the passenger side of the security door??!

And that the BBC are making this public knowledge?

Anyone else find it worrying that there is an axe stored somewhere on the passenger side of the security door??!

No, they are visible for all to see when you walk on. Certainly used to be. Behind a precise glass or something.

All of the above were concious and calculated decisions over a period of time with the outcome being the death of 149 people unrelated to him.

Conscious and calculated decisions taken by someone whose head was possibly ****ed up.

No, they are visible for all to see when you walk on. Certainly used to be. Behind a precise glass or something.

Really? So I'm not allowed to take a pair of scissors on a plane but I can readily access an axe?

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn't calculated

I'm saying I don't know what happened in his head, and I suspect you don't either.

[i]Instead, in a very calculated manner he deliberately murdered 149 people[/i]

😯 just wow...

It is being reported that the police found a doctors note allowing him to be signed off work, this was ripped up and left at his house. Strikes me this is a "FU I am not being signed off work" kind of response.

So I speculate he was suffering again from stress/depression and he knew that if he went public to his employer he would be taken off flight duties / lose he career (or he was afraid that would be the outcome).

JY based upon the info and opinions released by prosecutor/doctor/police I am now agreeing with those statements, that this doesn't look like a suicide as such, I have added the "trying to make a statement" and the opinions above.

It is not usual in an investigation for so much info to come out publically so quickly, I think in this case its being done as the info is quite clear

^ wow - what an ignorant point of view that is.

It is not usual in an investigation for so much info to come out publically so quickly, I think in this case its being done as the info is quite clear

I wonder why so much time and money is being spent on an investigation when all that really needs to be done is ask on mountain bike web site.
Facts? Who needs 'em?

This... is brilliant.. 😆

I wonder why so much time and money is being spent on an investigation when all that really needs to be done is ask on mountain bike web site.

I thought the chat forum on this mountain bike website was for people to air their thoughts and opinions on any given non bike based topics.

This thread happens to be about the recent tragic plane crash.
If you want hard facts not speculation may I suggest you look elsewhere.

jambalaya - Member

It is being reported that the police found a doctors note allowing him to be signed off work, this was ripped up and left at his house. Strikes me this is a "FU I am not being signed off work" kind of response.

So I speculate he

jambalaya - Member
..

I personally haven't speculated at all

LHS - Member

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn't calculated and he didn't murder 149 people

it's being very clearly [i]stated[/i], not implied, that we don't know if it was calculated or pre-meditated, or if he was in his right mind, and that therefore it's obviously wrong to [i]assume[/i] that it was murder.

I speculate jambalaya has indeed been speculating. Allegedly.

[quote=slowoldman ]I speculate jambalaya has indeed been speculating. Allegedly.
Are you trying to insinuate something?

So I'm not allowed to take a pair of scissors on a plane but I can readily access an axe?

Tom - I'm afraid you are way off wrt the financial side of pilot training these days.

The flying schools have set up a huge training industry, playing on the glamorous side of the job, promising the earth to wannabe pilots, in terms of guaranteed jobs. They set up loans for you with their preferred provider. They train as many as they can, not how many are required, leaving newly qualified pilots desperate for a job, saddled with crippling debts.

The LoCo airlines take advantage of this, and a scam called "pay to fly" has been born. Basically, the pilot pays for the privilege of flying, with the hope of a permanent job at the end. Sadly, the airlines instead dump them off at the end of term, bringing in a newly qualified "free" replacement instead.

The days of building PPL hours, then air taxi, turboprop, regional, charter, then major have gone. Cheap is king.

Add to that the fact that the maximum flying limitations are now seen as a target to be extracted from every "flying unit" you can see why you may have some stressed, fatigued pilots out there.

You can get student loans like the rest of us to get into commercial aviation now, why not go down this route?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2013/05/uk-pilot-trainees-to-get-stude/

I don't for a second really think that being a bit low paid excuses him.

I'd say that they weren't at all comparable. I can't understand the thought processes involved with them.

IF he did kill them, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they were.

Let's see how accurate my opinions voiced today turns out to be. As I posted the first day or two I focused on the press conferences, now the opinions come in. Perfectly justifiable. From the Guardian today - note the last sentence;

[i]Dr. Hans-Werner Teichmüller, president of the Deutsche Fliegerarztverband, an association of German doctors who carry out examinations on pilots and flight crew, expressed total shock at the co-pilot’s alleged actions.

“It’s horrible, it’s becoming more and more incomprehensible,” Teichmüller told the Guardian. “It’s utterly irresponsible that he flew even though he had a certificate saying he was not ready to work, and was therefore unfit to fly. Everything he did was highly criminal.”[/i]

Indeed it was a conscious pre-meditated decision to go and kill all those people that day. If he wanted to end his own life then he would have done it without the impact to others. No matter what his mental state, it was carefully calculated pre-meditated murder. No hand wringing will change that fact.

“It’s horrible, it’s becoming more and more incomprehensible,” Teichmüller told the Guardian. “It’s utterly irresponsible that [b]the organisation/individual who decided he was not ready to work, and was therefore unfit to fly, didn't inform his employer[/b]”

LHS - Member

Indeed it was a conscious pre-meditated decision to go and kill all those people that day. If he wanted to end his own life then he would have done it without the impact to others. No matter what his mental state, it was carefully calculated pre-meditated murder.

And you know this because...

I am due my annual medical next month. If my CAA accredited ME decides I am unfit to fly, he will revoke my medical and inform the CAA. It is up to me as the Pilot License Holder to inform my company. Doctors intentionally sit outside company management structures to stop commercial pressure being put on them.

With mental health issues this seems a large hole.

* I may be unaware of some specific reporting chain for mental health issues.

French Prime Minister Vallis

[i]"Everything points to this act that we are unable to qualify - criminal, mad, suicidal."[/i]

Jean-Marie Le Guen, secretary of state in charge of parliamentary relations

[i]"a crime and no doubt a murder independent of the desire to commit suicide. He dragged 149 people to their deaths with him."[/i]

@scardeypants - yes very interesting statement and as I understand it doctors have a duty of confidentiality although not sure how that applies to such a situation and of course what the law is in Germany

Tom - I'm not suggesting for one minute that debt excuses the actions in this case. I am however postulating that if we don't act on the myriad of avoidable causes of stress amongst pilots, then new rules mandating cabin crew (the majority of whom quite understandably have no idea how to control planes) on the flight deck are just publicity stunts.

And you know this because...

What Jambalaya said and now on top of all that it happens that he had a medical condition that he knowingly withheld from his employers which would have made him unfit to fly. No real hiding from the facts.

Jamba still doesn't know what premeditation means. Or rather, he does I think, but he finds it inconvenient.

Hiding a medical condition also doesn't show premeditation to commit murder; there's many reasons you might do that.

Northwind, what is the definition of premeditation? He was on his own for the best part of 10 minutes, consiously knowing what the impact of his actions would be. That in my eyes is premeditated.

Pre-meditation means planning something in advance. What you're talking about is action, not planning, the fact that it took 10 minutes to do it from when he started doesn't tell you anything about premeditation. It does mean he had the opportunity to stop it, but that's irrelevant to premeditation.

Simpler way to think about it- where is the "pre" in this as you summarise it? There is no pre, it's all action. There may come out evidence that this was planned in advance; so far, I've heard of none, just people whose reaction to a horrible situation is to insist that it's even worse.

Northwind, what is the definition of premeditation?

Why take 150 people with you? How about to totally destroy the life of the person you've broken up with. Whoever that person is I expect right now they wish they were dead. What a way to punish someone and torture them for the rest of their lives.

It is being reported that the police found a doctors note allowing him to be signed off work, this was ripped up and left at his house. Strikes me this is a "FU I am not being signed off work" kind of response.

I don't get this bit unless it's different in Germany - I would only get a sicknote if I went to the doctor and basically asked for one, with the implication I was going to use it. All I can think of was he thought about calling in sick, but then though f** that, it's too late for things like that and was in an (obviously with hindsight) darker/deeper place than he realised.

Why take 150 people with you? How about to totally destroy the life of the person you've broken up with. Whoever that person is I expect right now they wish they were dead. What a way to punish someone and torture them for the rest of their lives.

Often a classic sign of depression/suicides - you can't communicate what you feel so often demonstrate it in such ways to show people how you feel/felt.

If you lot can step away from bickering about whether or not he was a murderous bastard for a moment, does anybody know whether this was his first flight of the day, or had he already made one?

They said on the news yesterday that him and the captain had already flown that morning to Spain

Jesus, imagine being a passenger on his earlier flight.

If you lot can step away from bickering about whether or not he was a murderous bastard for a moment

Given the contributions that is unlikely to happen as they guess wildly and search the internet for "proof" of their claims

I think we should stop assuming that we do.

Again it seems unlikely as some of them cannot even see [ or admit as NW alludes to] they are making assumptions and prefer to find evidence that shows they are right. all a bit JHJ for me and in poor taste.

Your right we dont know. Its hardly the work of Sherlock to work out the pilot had issues and i dont think you can claim some sort of special power because you realised or predicted this. We have no idea how his illness developed or manifested itself we only know that one act we dont not know WHY or how or if he planned it just that he did it.

note the last sentence;

Dr. Hans-Werner Teichmüller, president of the Deutsche Fliegerarztverband, an association of German doctors who carry out examinations on pilots and flight crew, expressed total shock at the co-pilot’s [b]alleged[/b] actions.

All very calculated and deliberate and not an act of emotion/anger/momentary loss of control.

I take it you missed (or didn't understand) the second last word of the first sentence?

sharkbait - Member
Jesus, imagine being a passenger on his earlier flight.

Something that I don't think anyone else has touched on - imagine being his parents.

As a father of two children a few years older than he was I honestly can't imagine the hell they're going through. I reckon that they'll be thinking that it would have been better if they'd died with him.

So now we are debating how his parents feel and just how suicidal they are 😯

Can we all have a collective word with ourselves here 🙄

I reckon this misunderstanding was pre meditated

So now we are debating how his parents feel and just how suicidal they are

Can we all have a collective word with ourselves here

Totally agree.

Maybe not intentional, but incredibly insensitive.

Junkyard - lazarus
So now we are debating how his parents feel and just how suicidal they are

Can we all have a collective word with ourselves here

Nobody was debating it and it may not be relevant as far as you're concerned. It was simply a thought that's been going through my head today - but you're right, I'll **** off and have a word with myself.

[quote=paulwf ]They said on the news yesterday that him and the captain had already flown that morning to Spain

Thanks - I assumed it was likely that they wouldn't get their pilots overnighting away from base, but nothing I found seemed to mention that.

In which case I'll make a (probably futile) attempt to nip some of the speculation in the bud. If his intentions were as some people seem to think when he got out of bed that morning, why did he wait until the second flight and not just get on with it? It was mentioned earlier, but everybody seems to be ignoring it - it does seem there was some sort of disagreement with the captain during the flight. Maybe this was what cause him to snap, and decide to end it there and then.

Has anyone mentioned schizophrenia yet? We may never know, however that's the sense I'm getting from this.

It was simply a thought that's been going through my head today - but you're right, I'll **** off and have a word with myself.

Please dont be angry at me [ it was not said to annoy but i can see hwy it has] but please do have a think about it. We dont need trial by social media on here and we certainly dont need it for his parents.

Exits thread wishes aracer luck

Ex girlfriend now stated he told her he was planning his place in history and everyone would remember his name and what he had done. Still need convincing this wasn't murder?!!! 😯

http://mic.com/articles/113896/everyone-s-trying-really-hard-not-to-call-the-germanwings-co-pilot-a-terrorist?fb_action_ids=10153757374109778&fb_action_types=og.shares

Has anyone mentioned schizophrenia yet?

Well you have now if no one else has.

It's an easy explanation - the incompetence of the neuropsychologist who was treating him from depression to diagnose untreated severe schizophrenia.

And of course we all know that sufferers of schizophrenia are either murders or murders in the waiting.

Trying to live with schizophrenia is truly shit enough, something which you are obviously lucky enough not to know, without ignorant people demonizing suffers with ill-thought comments.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/mar/27/schizophrenia-portrayed-negatively-the-voices-louis-theroux ]Why is schizophrenia portrayed so negatively on screen?[/url]

[i] BBC documentary reinforce the stereotype that people with schizophrenia are dangerous[/i]

Ex girlfriend now stated he told her he was planning his place in history and everyone would remember his name and what he had done. Still need convincing

Just idle speculation, but hey, sauce for the goose and all that

What should happen: a deep review into mental health issues amongst pilots - is there anything companies can do to reduce stress levels, and how do the authorities ensure people comply with doctors instructions?

What will happen: A knee-jerk reaction introducing a pointless counterproductive set of rules, to pacify the media.

Sadly.

In which case I'll make a (probably futile) attempt to nip some of the speculation in the bud. If his intentions were as some people seem to think when he got out of bed that morning, why did he wait until the second flight and not just get on with it?

I am wondering what element of planning went into this in terms of crash location. But then I remember that he could never have predicted when the captain would go to the loo.

If it's a regular run then there could be an established routine.

The Times is reporting he'd flown over the area before in a glider, but I'm failing to see how that's relevant if, like you say, he was on a regular route. Just more press speculation.

Chubby bloke, you seem to have anger issues. Perhaps a chat with some loved ones is in order? Not sure what's going on in your life but best to talk it over with someone.

....

I am wondering what element of planning went into this in terms of crash location. But then I remember that he could never have predicted when the captain would go to the loo.

We'll probably never know what was going on in the first officer's head. It's possible he was psychotic at the time of the crash and thought (for example) the sky was about to turn into rock and only by flying under the sky through the mountains could he save everyone. In that scenario he had no intent to harm anyone. Perhaps the psychosis started at the point his answers became curt. (Apparently depression can morph into conditions that include psychosis.)

My point is perhaps we should be slower to blame this guy. He didn't ask for a mental illness. Although, clearly in more lucid moments he should have told his company he was unfit to fly for whatever reason - being honest about the situation didn't harm his career before.

FWIW I don't believe the story in the Mail about him threatening to do it some time ago - if he'd said that and she thought he meant it she'd have told the airline.

The Mail's headline doesn't reflect the truth though.

Full black box transcript available now. Terrible reading. Actively encouraging the pilot to go to the toilet and leave the cabin and making references like "we will see" when talking about the landing.

Whoever leaked that needs their backside kicking.

Not what I was expecting from the headline, he talks more sense than a lot of you

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32101305

The glider experience in the area may be relevant. After working for many years in a Lakes MRT, we had a lot of suicides with people coming back to a favourite or regular holiday location to end it all..

How is the motive of the co-pilot not relevant? Not sure many would agree with that point of view. Agreed that the airlines need to ensure full accountability for the well being of their crew, but in this case there would need to be wide-sweeping changes to transparency of medical notes and their availability to the employer. This would have much wider reaching consequences.

How is the motive relevant?

Lessons learnt. Ensuring history is not repeated. What if he left a note stating that his employer had pushed him to the limits, he had told them endlessly for months that he couldn't go on under the pressure and the only way they would pay attention is if he did something drastic like this. Understanding that motive would be extremely beneficial to implement remedial action to ensure nothing like this happens again. How do you put remedial action in place without understanding the direct or root cause of the issue?

Pretty obvious stuff.

Have you forgotten that the guy was possibly severely mentally ill?

Where's the line between terrorist / mass murderer / insane... Because this has pretty much got them all crossed..