[Closed] Plane crash in the alps

Apologies if it's been posted already, but here's a more detailed video on the door unlock/lock procedure on the airbus:

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/mar/26/airbus-safety-video-shows-cockpit-door-entry-procedure-germanwings-crash?CMP=twt_gu ]Link[/url]

she gets up every morning to go to work and wears a pilot's uniform

Sorry couldn't resist it. Feels a bit inappropriate making jokes given the current press conference, prosecuter saying co-pilot crashed plane deliberately having locked pilot out of the cockpit. Co-pilot alive till point on impact.

Again perhaps inappropriately this could have a big impact on the insurers with major claims against the airline

EDIT from the Guardian, co-pilot named, he was 28

[i]Co-pilot is named as Andreas Lubitz by prosecutor.[/i]

I know suicide is a cry for help

Suicide doesn't involve murdering 150 other people

Confirmed Andreas Lubitz deliberately crashed the plane (BBC news live press conference).

They didn't, this has been 'leaked'. Many of the reports on the BBC start by acknowledging the seriousness of that leak:

BBC Page I was reading didn't mention it was a leak, just this:

One of the two pilots of the Germanwings plane that crashed in the French Alps was locked out of the cockpit, according to reports.
Early findings from the cockpit voice recorder suggest the pilot made desperate efforts to get back in, sources close to the investigation say.

It seems the 'suicide pilot' has now been named on BBC twitter. Also claim the French are saying that passengers didn't know what was going on until the last minute.

I have to admit I have concerns over a French investigation of a crash involving an Airbus. I am sure the investigation will be thorough and they will throw everything into it but some of the decisions on action/blame/recommendations afterwards can sometimes be best described as "odd" and when they get their justice system involved it just adds delays and complications.

If the Malaysian flight is eventually found to be deliberate action by a pilot and then this we may start to see some changes in the control of aircraft as well as cars.

Suicide has to be one of the worst scenarios for the families to come tot terms with.

Desperately sad, but thankfully extremely rare. I can't see the need to change things; maybe a cc member on the flight deck when a pilot leaves it for any reason?

Just bloody awful.

Desperately sad, but thankfully extremely rare. I can't see the need to change things; maybe a cc member on the flight deck when a pilot leaves it for any reason?

Just bloody awful.

agreed. Just waiting for knee jerk reactions.

and +1 to the last bit.

Hard to compute. Really is.

So despite other suspected and confirmed pilot suicides since 9/11 and locked cockpits no international requirement for there always to be 2 people on the flight deck has been implemented. Some airlines have independently introduced the policy so what excuse have those not implementing it got?

Just thinking back to the old days when they had a flight engineer on the flight deck. At least it would help prevent this kind of situation but the role is not needed any more.

Although thoughts go back to Fedex 705 when al 3 crew members were very badly injured by an employee along for the ride wanting to crash the plane.

Some airlines have independently introduced the policy so what excuse have those not implementing it got?

Customers dont want to pay extra for someone sitting around doing nothing when they could be walking the plane giving them free small cans of pop?

sharkbait - Member

Bollocks... it's a cowards way out

**** off.

My god that's awful

Reminded of [url= http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990 ]Egypt Air 990[/url].

Andyl

Yes the FE was an excellent flight safety and CRM element. Just they all stink of wee now sadly.

I do hope knee jerk responses are avoided over this. Aviation is one of the most regulated and supervised industries in the world.

Hard to compute. Really is.

I really hope the co-pilot isn't being branded a mass murderer before all the facts are know.

I really hope the co-pilot isn't being branded a mass murderer before all the facts are know

This ^

would be horrible to find there was a mistake or deliberate deception by the other pilot but the guys family had been hounded by the press. eg somehow incapacitated the co-pilot to implicate him. They said there was no word from the co pilot for the last 10 minutes but were adamant he was alive. But I am sure there is a lot of details not released on which they are basing these claims...or I hope.

Ya, BBC now [b]confirms the co-pilok is a mass murderer [/b]who murdered the people in the entire plane.

The co-pilok is a mass murderer. He is.

It'll be interesting to see but presumably the sequence (pilot leaves cockpit, closes door after which the plane starts its dive) are fairly conclusive to the co-pilot having done it on purpose which is why they've put it out there.

IME air safety people are pretty conservative in saying things before they're sure.

Pretty evident he is a mass murderer.

Pretty evident he is a mass murderer.

Is it? Or have you just read a bit of testimony on the web?

It seems the likely truth, but I'd not go as far as "pretty evident", we really have little idea.

Is it?

Yes.

Well his house and life will now be getting searched with a fine tooth comb to find out any reason for it.

On the M60 motorway I often pass under a motorway bridge with flowers tied to the railings directly above the fast lane. I've seen this a few times- inexplicably over the fast lane too. If you were intent on killing yourself you'd jump infront of a truck in the slow lane however doing it over the fast lane ensures a fast, very nasty high speed collision with an innocent person who never wronged you but it doesn't take rocket science to figure you doing that velocity/connection they too will suffer very serious life changing injuries or death.

So why take someone with you? Are you that deep/mad/intent on taking your own life that you want to go out the nastiest, messiest way possible and don't care if you take anyone else out with you?

Unfortunately in this day and age though, i think suicide is not the only reason. Was he radicalised, was it an act of terrorism? These questions must be answered to determine what the main objective of the crash was.

So why take someone with you? Are you that deep/mad/intent on taking your own life that you want to go out the nastiest, messiest way possible and don't care if you take anyone else out with you?

IME suicidal people dont think like that, even if you hang yourself someone has to find you, clear everything up...all they are thinking is im better off not here

agree with your sentiment, if it was suicide, that taking 140 others with you is a [i]bit[/i] extreme

^ eh? I wouldnt be so sure there wouldnt be a nasty accident if you jumped infront of a truck. What if you take out the driver who then swerves across the motorway, taking out cars in the two lanes to his/her right and then through the central reservation into the path of oncoming cars?

Best case is you don't kill anyone but someone still has to scrape you up off the floor and driver that runs you over has to go for counselling etc. Still selfish.

just jump off a cliff into the sea after checking there is no one below.

Are you that deep/mad/intent on taking your own life

That is a great example of a tuatology.

Clearly if you're taking your own life you're likely to be thinking rationally.

ALthough that said, I did have a long and very interesting conversation with a Samaritan a few months back (I was calling because I was concerned about a friend) and they said something that I found very poignant and interesting which was that the contemplation of suicide is itself a way of taking back control of a situation you feel you have no control over. And indeed, following through with it is another step in that control. I was also surprised to learn that the Samaritans don't approach calls of that nature with the aim of talking people down. Sometimes their job is to be there with the person as they follow through with it.

It was very poignant conversation. It gave me some insights that mean I'm not going to judge this pilot if it was indeed suicide.

Sometimes their job is to be there with the person as they follow through with it.

Pretty evident he is a mass murderer.

The prosecutor described it as "the most plausible explanation".

There is a pretty big gap between plausibility and evidence.
Not that the press will care, but it would be awful if they destroyed an innocent man's reputation based just on plausibility.

Other scenarios are possible, less plausible maybe but possible.

On the M60 motorway I often pass under a motorway bridge with flowers tied to the railings directly above the fast lane. I've seen this a few times- inexplicably over the fast lane too. If you were intent on killing yourself you'd jump infront of a truck in the slow lane however doing it over the fast lane ensures a fast, very nasty high speed collision with an innocent person who never wronged you but it doesn't take rocket science to figure you doing that velocity/connection they too will suffer very serious life changing injuries or death.

So why take someone with you? Are you that deep/mad/intent on taking your own life that you want to go out the nastiest, messiest way possible and don't care if you take anyone else out with you?

People do this kind of thing because they have an extreme form of passive aggressive behavior, there are generally two types of suicide. Relatively clean ones (hangings, overdoses etc), whereby the person was just depressed and angry suicides (eg shotgun >>>> brains up the wall - the intention being to make a statement).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_explosive_disorder

This used to be classified as a subtype of passive-aggressive disorder.

njee20 - Member

Pretty evident he is a mass murderer.

Is it? Or have you just read a bit of testimony on the web?

It seems the likely truth, but I'd not go as far as "pretty evident", we really have little idea.

BBC now named the co-pilok as mass murderer. He killed everyone in the plane including children and families. He is a mass murderer. Yes, he is.

He joined the airline in 2013, which is not very long, so he must have a really messed up head to do so but nevertheless he is now a mass murderer.

The question is whether something caused his pilok head to do so.

Suicide? He can killed himself and his pilok head but to take other innocence people with him ... pui! I have no sympathy with this pilok. He should be heavily judged in the afterlife.

🙄

It gave me some insights that mean I'm not going to judge this pilot if it was indeed suicide.

Care to share the insights?

Because, currently, without them, and I reckon I might not be alone on this one - I'm not with you there. 150 passengers.

As per @Tom's post above the co-pilot clearly intended to make a statement about control and power, to prove he could take the lives of many others. Picking through this is going to be very interesting for the criminal psychologists.

By the way he is a mass murderer. Zero sympathy from me for his mental state.

He joined the airline in 2013, which is not very long, so he must have a really messed up head to do so but nevertheless he is now a mass murderer.

The question is whether something caused his pilok head to do so.

Suicide? He can killed himself and his pilok head but to take other innocence people with him ... pui!

What? And why do you keep writing "pilok", I genuinely don't understand WTF you're talking about. What's the relevance in how long he's been at the airline?

BBC now named the co-pilok as mass murderer.

No they haven't. The BBC are not crash investigators.

They have simply reported that the prosecutor Brice Robin stated a deliberate act is [i]"The most plausible interpretation"[/i].

Seems like (and I really do hope this was the case) the passengers didnt know anything was up until just before then end. As horrifying as that is I'm sure someones last actions were to try and leave a message to loved ones, there is a chance they'll find something in the wreckage.

The only other time I've heard of German Wings (I watch n-tv most days) is because of the strikes which result from the company imposing ever less favourable conditions on their employees.

I'm still say.... yet to meet a chef who goes on a shotgun rampage because of the shitty work conditions in the catering industry.

I think some people find reasons to hate their job no matter what the working conditions are actually like, usually spoiled types with a victim mentality. If your working conditions are bad you make a rational decision to leave, not throw your toys out of the pram. I have no sympathy for these kinds of people, although I believe I once had an element of this attitude - I think or at least hope that I have lost it.

njee20 - Member
What? And why do you keep writing "pilok", I genuinely don't understand WTF you're talking about. What's the relevance in how long he's been at the airline?

Opps! Should be "pilot" but I just wrote it as the way my mum pronounced pilot as "pilok" (local pronunciation) whatever that means.

Relevance? He joined in 2013 and he could intentionally be trained to fly with the intention to kill. Simple. If he has been flying for many years then you can explain differently. A fit young man ... his head must be real messed up to become a pilot in order to kill everyone. Of course it is relevant.

🙄

GrahamS - Member

BBC now named the co-pilok as mass murderer.

No they haven't. The BBC are not crash investigators.

They have simply reported that the prosecutor Brice Robin stated a deliberate act is "The most plausible interpretation".

Now ITV says it was a [b]deliberate act[/b] of the co-pilok[b] to make the plane dive[/b]. You only do so if you intend to crash the plane and to kill everyone.

I'm still say.... yet to meet a chef who goes on a shotgun rampage because of the shitty work conditions in the catering industry.

@njee - the length of time he was a pilot is relevant, in that if he had mental health issues they may well have not come to light in the short time he was flying.

I'm still say.... yet to meet a chef who goes on a shotgun rampage because of the shitty work conditions in the catering industry.

Something that was once called [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal ]"going postal"[/url] due to the perceived frequency of US postal workers going on gun rampages.

Not sure how postman fit your "spoiled types with a victim mentality" diagnosis.

(Edit: beaten to the point by jambalaya)

Relevance? He joined in 2013 and he could intentionally be trained to fly with the intention to kill. Simple. If he has been flying for many years then you can explain differently. A fit young man ... his head must be real messed up to become a pilot in order to kill everyone. Of course it is relevant.

Re "deliberate act" that's exactly what the chief prosecutor said at the press conferemce, the BBC etc are just reporting that.

Picking through this is going to be very interesting for the criminal psychologists.

pondo - Member

Relevance? He joined in 2013 and he could intentionally be trained to fly with the intention to kill. Simple. If he has been flying for many years then you can explain differently. A fit young man ... his head must be real messed up to become a pilot in order to kill everyone. Of course it is relevant.

What you're doing there is making one huge assumption without any foundation in fact.

Then you need to test that theory/assumption ... should be interesting to find out if their investigation match up. Let's see.

He is still a mass murderer.

Now ITV says it was a deliberate act of the co-pilok to make the plane dive.

not ITV, sh1t it'll be channel 5 next!

agree with Njee - until we have the facts this is just the media's take on it...remember that poor girl that was murdered in bristol and the press ruined the odd bloke who lived next doors life when he had no involvement.

Please dont make a knee jerk reaction to this otherwise the paedatrician will be in trouble again when some idiot mistakes their sign for a paedophile.

Now ITV says it was a deliberate act of the co-pilok to make the plane dive.

ITV are not crash investigators either.
They are all just reporting what the prosecutor said.

You only do so if you intend to crash the plane and to kill everyone.

Really?

Here's an alternative (less plausible but [i]possible[/i]) scenario: the co-pilot takes ill / poisoned / has a stroke, and begins to hallucinate that he is making a controlled descent to land the plane at an airport. Deliberate action - but absolutely no conscious intention to kill himself or everyone else.

I'm sure an imaginative mind could come up with a dozen or more scenarios that would also be less plausible but [i]possible[/i].

To brand someone a mass-murderer just because that is the easiest scenario doesn't mean it is correct. I hope they have more evidence for that than they are reporting.

It's all over the news now with "... deliberate act ... co-pilot ... make plane dive". 😮

Sometimes their job is to be there with the person as they follow through with it.

Really?!

Apparently so. At least this is how it was explained to me by the Samaritan I talked to (for about two hours).

How long he'd been a pilot is utterly irrelevant. You can have a breakdown at any point in life.

What is interesting is that while pilots are required to have a medial every six months or a year (I can't remember which it is, but they go into the sim to be checked every six months) they don't get psychological screening. I'm not sure I know enough about the subject to state that there is any potential value to that being done mind, but I do know that you can quantify with some degree of certainty, their potential risk of suicide, or at least some other wild reaction to a difficult situatin, based on profiling.

There have been a number of posts on here about people that have taken their own lives. I imagine that those who knew them will have some understanding of what a person goes through in the lead up to such an act. Clearly you aren't thinking rationally. But more pertinently, it's kind of pointless to judge someone who already died. It doesn't bring anyone back, doesn't change what happened. It's just someone being angry. Unless you have a particular reason to be angry I'd say it's a pointless reaction (to judge the pilot in any way).

yet to meet a chef who goes on a shotgun rampage because of the shitty work conditions in the catering industry.

A mate of mine used to be a pilot. The unusual shifts/changes in time zones/being in a tin can left him having to take drugs to get to sleep and drugs to stay awake. Thankfully he got out before it got too much, but his employers were not supportive.

And who's to say his job had anything to do with his mental health state.

Very sad if it is suicide. If it was no one knows the exact details. Anyone who says he deliberately took the lives of all those on board is jumping to conclusions. Suicide is an awful thing, I doubt many people think right I am going to kill myself today, how many people can I take with me?

Some people on here show a complete lack on insight in to mental health 🙄

GrahamS - Member

ITV are not crash investigators either.
They are all just reporting what the prosecutor said.

Ok, they (all the news) [b]reported[/b] what the prosecutor said ...

Here's an alternative (less plausible but possible) scenario: the co-pilot takes ill / poisoned / has a stroke, and begins to hallucinate that he is making a controlled descent to land the plane at an airport. Deliberate action - but absolutely no conscious intention to kill himself or everyone else.

Here is the possible answer:

28 yr old, fit and not overweight so I guess that will rule out many of the above. What's of the above are left ... let's see ...

I'm sure an imaginative mind could come up with a dozen or more scenarios that would also be less plausible but possible.

You need to start with imaginative minds first then put them to test. Then reduce the impossible and whatever remains should be the truth.

To brand someone a mass-murderer just because that is the easiest scenario doesn't mean it is correct. I hope they have more evidence for that than they are reporting.

If you read what the prosecutor said then a deliberate act (usually with intention) to dive the plane can only mean one thing that is death. Therefore, he is a mass murderer.

Very sad if it is suicide. If it was no one knows the exact details. Anyone who says he deliberately took the lives of all those on board is jumping to conclusions. Suicide is an awful thing, I doubt many people think right I am going to kill myself today, how many people can I take with me?

I must say a couple of posters have turned this thread into a witch hunt, which is quite sad really. IMO that's the point it crossed a line into bad taste.

Those responsible have made their opinions very clear, perhaps they should [s]**** off[/s] duck out.

Then you need to test that theory/assumption ... should be interesting to find out if their investigation match up.

It's not just bad taste. It's utterly pointless.

What possible good comes from reptetively stating that the pilot was a mass murderer? What does it change?

However, that said, if someone had lost someone on that flight and was making that post, I would understand it. Similarly, maybe those people driving that message have lost somone close in similar circumstances. That would also make that reaction understandable.

If you read what the prosecutor said then a deliberate act (usually with intention) to dive the plane can only mean one thing that is death. Therefore, he is a mass murderer.

I thought that murder was premeditated killing ?

If it is suicide of course he intentially put the aircraft in to the hillside. Was he thinking ha ha, how many people can I take with me??? I doubt it, things must have been pretty shit for him to take his own life, and at that point I doubt other people come in to it.

FunkyDunc - Member
I thought that murder was premeditated killing ?

Yes, he could have planned (rational intention) it if that is what you mean.

geetee1972 - Member

It's not just bad taste. It's utterly pointless.

How often do you fly?

🙄

How often do you fly?

Maybe once a quarter? Why do you ask?

Yes he could have planned to take his own life, but you do not know anymore than I do, in fact neither does the Prosecutor. He may have decided that life was that bad that death was a better place to be, but because his head was in a bad place, the fact that crew and passengers would die too may not have entered in to it, and thats not murder. But as said we will never know he reasoning. So what has been said is actually damaging.

IMO he is being called a 'murderer' because the alternative is that we can all be flying around in aircraft controlled by people who might potentially cause us to die.

To label him a murderer makes us all feel a little more secure because we know that he was different and it wont happen again tomorrow. Plus it takes the pressure of the industry to support their staff and improve conditions, afterall the guy was "just a nutter"

Ok, they (all the news) reported what the prosecutor said ...

Better. And what the prosecutor apparently said was:

[i]"[b]The most plausible interpretation[/b] is that the co-pilot through a voluntary act had refused to open the cabin door to let the captain in. He pushed the button to trigger the aircraft to lose altitude. He operated this button for a reason [b]we don't know yet[/b], but [b]it appears[/b] that the reason was to destroy this plane."[/i]

They also said that there was [i]"absolute silence in the cockpit"[/i].

So it's not like they have evidence of the guy reading out his suicide note or an extremist message.

It's certainly possible he did it all intentionally, maybe even likely, but it is far from certain (as far as we know from the reports to date).

Now ITV says it was a deliberate act of the co-pilok to make the plane dive. You only do so if you intend to crash the plane and to kill everyone.

The plane didn't 'dive'. I think this is where the news agencies are jumping the gun. Just because the co-pilot told the plane to descend does not mean he wanted it to crash killing all onboard. However, drawing that conclusion allows the news agencies to write alarmist headlines that will get plenty of attention, whilst destroying the life of a potentially innocent man and his greiving family.

There's been some wild speculation on this thread. I'll go one beyond. This isn't speculation it's pure fantasy and has nothing to do with these tragic events:

utter rubbish/
Young pilot feeling like most people do at some point in their lives - not much to live for, at some point argues with older pilot who has a fantastic pension plan and retirement conditions but won't support his younger colleagues in their industrial action to obtain the same. Ends up flying with privileged older pilot on a particularly bad day and makes sure the older pilot won't be benefiting from his fantastic pension./utter rubbish

How often do you fly?

How often do you fly? Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the relevance of that nugget?

Are you trying to reassure yourself that this guy was MASS MURDERERERER and therefore you're still safe? Here's something for you... flying is statistically just as safe as it was on Tuesday morning (well, very very minescule difference), all you're doing by calling the co-pilot a mass murderer is being a pillock.

I don't fly very often but someone I love very much flies every day and I don't feel any different about her doing it today than I did on Tuesday morning (though I did squeeze her just a little bit harder that night).

Excellent, 150 people died, apparently it's time to be a dick on the internet. Well done folks.

GrahamS - Member

Ok, they (all the news) reported what the prosecutor said ...

Better. And what the prosecutor apparently said was:

Don't push iiiittttt!... 🙄

Like a bloody lawyer choosing words.

My turn ... now let me choose those words as quoted by you.

[i]"The most plausible interpretation is that the [b]co-pilot through a voluntary act had refused to open the cabin door[/b] to let the captain in. He [b]pushed the button to trigger the aircraft to lose altitude[/b]. He operated this button for a reason we don't know yet, but [b]it appears that the reason was to destroy this plane[/b]."

They also said that there was "absolute silence in the cockpit".[/i]

😯

GO AWAY.

I'm hoping a more direct message may get through.

Nick - in the spirit of 'we don't know what really happened', it's also possible that Chewkw is reflecting some anger from somewhere else. He may also have lost someone in similar circumstances, i.e. someone else's suicide took someone else with them.

His anger and attachment to this line of debate would be understandable in those circumstances.

You need to start with imaginative minds first then put them to test. Then reduce the impossible and whatever remains should be the truth.

I did my best, Chewkw, and you haven't even commented on my efforts. 🙁

Edukator - Troll

You need to start with imaginative minds first then put them to test. Then reduce the impossible and whatever remains should be the truth.

I did my best, Chewkw, and you haven't even commented on my efforts.

You have done your best and so do I 😀

... I better stop now otherwise I would upset others with my original assumptions. 😮

[quote=Northwind ]Excellent, 150 people died, apparently it's time to be a dick on the internet. Well done folks.

For some people it's always time 🙄

Nick - in the spirit of 'we don't know what really happened', it's also possible that Chewkw is reflecting some anger from somewhere else. He may also have lost someone in similar circumstances, i.e. someone else's suicide took someone else with them.

Doesn't stop it being an utterly useless contribution, and rather irritating, taking the appropriateness out of the equation!

Yes he could have planned to take his own life, but you do not know anymore than I do, in fact neither does the Prosecutor. He may have decided that life was that bad that death was a better place to be, but because his head was in a bad place, the fact that crew and passengers would die too may not have entered in to it, and thats not murder. But as said we will never know he reasoning. So what has been said is actually damaging.

IMO he is being called a 'murderer' because the alternative is that we can all be flying around in aircraft controlled by people who might potentially cause us to die.

To label him a murderer makes us all feel a little more secure because we know that he was different and it wont happen again tomorrow. Plus it takes the pressure of the industry to support their staff and improve conditions, afterall the guy was "just a nutter"

He would be a murderer in the same way that Virginia tech type shooters are. Just because it didn't involve a gun doesn't mean to say that it's not murder.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/disaster-psychiatry/mass-shootings-research-and-lessons/page/0/2

If true, he was a shitbag and not deserving of much empathy.

Doesn't stop it being an utterly useless contribution, and rather irritating, taking the appropriateness out of the equation!

It is however entirely in keeping with his "Comedy Internet Persona" which is what's important.

Have I stumbled onto the Daily Fail forum?

He would be a murderer in the same way that Virginia tech type shooters are

There's absolutely zero evidence of premeditation. Not a shred.

Hence, "if true".

Hence, "if true".

Sneaky edit.