Pickup BIK rules

Good Thing!

I'm guessing all those that don't use one will think it's a good thing and those that do will think it's a bad thing.

As usual it's a broadbrush tax grab that penalises self employed tradies.

Some guy in middle management using one as a company car as a tax dodge, fine - he should pay BIK on it, but a tradesman who genuinely uses one for work shouldn't be penalised IMO.

There's only one way this topic is going on here though

Totally agree Artist, Its going to piss off lots of the people who work for the Utilities Companies isn't it.

Pickup topped up with tools and kit, no use as a car but taxed like one..

Crew cab vans will be next, I guess all the van fanboys will be upset about that.

Wonder what they will class a Disco Commercial as - currently, it's a van? Won't affect my old knacker of a '16 plate D4, but (having had one fairly recently and may buy another), will they apply the rule to a new Disco 5 Commercial? They only have 2 seats though.

Also, is this one step towards stopping you claiming 100% VAT back on DC pick-up's too? And 100% AIA (annual investment allowance against Corporation Tax)?

Pickup topped up with tools and kit, no use as a car but taxed like one..

in those circumstances I'd be annoyed at being taxed on it in the first place - it should be treated as a pool vehicle if I'm getting "no use as a car" out of it.

I suspect the only legitimate users it'll target are farmers, does anyone sell crew-cab or single-cab pickups in the uk any more?

edit : looking at autotrader it seems like the ranger, d-max and hilux are all available with 2 doors, so they'd all count.

I suspect the only legitimate users it’ll target are farmers

I ain't no farmer

And yes, it is stuck

@Artist At least it wasn't snapped in half..?

I know a fair few people with Defender Commercials some with seats in the back and some without..

The V8 SWB van is lovely.

Pickup topped up with tools and kit, no use as a car but taxed like one..

Not a crew cab, no problem.

I ain’t no farmer

is that classed as a company car at 11 years old? there's surely more BIK paid after a decade in service than its list price was?

Pickup topped up with tools and kit, no use as a car but taxed like one..

Depends, you only pay BIK if there's a benefit, i.e. if you use it as a car.

I've yet to see an SSE Hilux parked up at Swinley with a Dakine tailgate protector. But you do see a lot of Ford Rangers which have clearly never seen a days work in their pampered life.

Crew cab vans will be next, I guess all the van fanboys will be upset about that.

There was something I saw in passing about HMRC winning a court case against Coca Cola arguing that combis were in fact cars, which when some of them are cars on the V5C surely is hard to argue against?

 HMRC winning a court case against Coca Cola

This finely balanced test is at odds with the judgement reached by the Court of Appeal in Payne & Ors (Coca-Cola) v R & C Commrs (2020) BTC19 (see EIM23121).  This confirmed that when applying the primary suitability test at Section 115 ITEPA 2003, decisions shouldn’t be reached on a narrow margin. Furthermore it clarified that where there are finely balanced cases, where no predominant suitability for the carriage of goods can be identified, the default should be that they are cars.

Transitional arrangements will apply for employers that have purchased, leased, or ordered a double cab pickup before 1 July 2024, whereby they will be able to rely upon the previous treatment until the earlier of disposal, lease expiry, or 5 April 2028

So it looks like if the vehicle can be used equally well to transport people and stuff then the default is treat it like a car for tax purposes, but if you've already got one you be OK tax-wise for the next four years.

Seems like a sensible decision.

Seems like a sensible decision.

Ignoring the 4 years grace if you already own one (now watch prices rocket until July). A tradesman who uses it primarily for work (possibly including transporting employees) will now be stung for (completely and utterly stabbing in the dark) an extra £200-300-400/month in tax for a vehicle that his company pays for in the first place to do a job? It's not a perk, it's a work vehicle that 'can' be used for SDP, much in the way that a van with a couple of extra seats can - and as such, you pay a cetrtain amount of tax. Just not as much as if it's a car provided for sole use as a car.

There needs to be some sensible definition as to it's use and not just - oh that vehicle is now a perk, we're stinging you. It's not sensible at all

On the other hand, I suspect this is a case of people taking the piss inconveniencing people who aren’t, and as above single cabs aren’t affected (which can still seat 3?)

it’s a work vehicle that ‘can’ be used for SDP

So don't use it for sdp and you won't have to pay bik.

So don’t use it for sdp and you won’t have to pay bik.

This really shouldn't be a hard concept.

A tradesman using his 'van' to get around in outside work hours not being the same as a middle manager using a pick up as a tax dodge shouldn't really be a hard concept to grasp either.

You already do pay BIK for SDP use of a van, just not the same amount as having a mid range/luxury car to swan around in. For now. Putting them in the same bracket isn't a fair penalty for a percentage of pick-up drivers. If you can't see that, then you are just being awkward for the sake of it

So you don't use it for sdp if you don't want to pay the bik.

Hopefully they’ll use the extra tax taken to pay for some good causes

Good cause round here.......mend the potholes !

I think the plan is to deter people from buying them rather than to rake in the tax.

But the higher the GVW the more potholes, so…

Meh, tightening up on commercial vehicle taxation is small beans compared to some of what goes on.

I’ve yet to see an SSE Hilux parked up at Swinley with a Dakine tailgate protector. But you do see a lot of Ford Rangers which have clearly never seen a days work in their pampered life

Are you sure they’re not privately owned? I know of a few people that own 4 seater pickups and one will be parked at Swinley from time to time. Wouldn’t be my choice, but hey.

Out of interest does anyone know the difference in BIK tax in a Tesla type thing and a pickup?

So you don’t use it for sdp if you don’t want to pay the bik

Are your powers of discussion limited to simply repeating yourself?

We are (or maybe it's just me) trying to discuss a NEW rule (not avoidance of an existing one) and how it's application could be implemented differently

But yeah, it doesn't affect you, so anyone it does affect has to suck it up

I think the plan is to deter people from buying them rather than to rake in the tax.

I tend to err on the side of them wanting to rake in the tax tbf

An electric car will almost always be less, but a pickup will be less than nearly any non electric car.

Electric pickup would be almost free, and potentially power tools on site

An electric car will almost always be less, but a pickup will be less than nearly any non electric car.

As I suspected, so if I want to have private use of my diesel company vehicle , which I have no choice of vehicle due to my job, I have to pay more than management with their flashy Tesla.
They probably get cheap E Bikes through tax breaks they never ride to work too.

To be clear, we don’t have management with Tesla’s and e-bikes, or management really, but that’s not the point.

If employees have to pay car rates for a pickup can see my employer will be faced with either having to buy more expensive 4x4's to appease staff paying the extra value of a car, whilst trashing the interior, or, buying vans that will be spend more time being maintained and more time being recovered more often. Or a bigger yard for everyones personal car and commercial pickups.

I get that they want to close the loophole, I'm not that great a fan of the things as there are many things they don't excel at, but they are the best compromise in my line of work.

Does this mean the price of 2nd hand double cab trucks is going to drop? Do hope so, could really do with replacing ours.

Double cabs fall into the middle ground between cars and commercial vehicles such as pickups/trucks.

I understand the argument from tradies (possibly) using them for work but HMRC are removing any ambiguity by sweeping them into BIK.

In the context of the overall tax take it's less than small change but easy pickings.

There might be more sympathy - or less criticism - if HMRC were seen to be (aggressively) pursuing large scale tax dodgers and multinational tech companies registered in low tax domiciles.

Good cause round here…….mend the potholes !

Caused by all them tax dodging massive pickups 😂

A tradesman using his ‘van’ to get around in outside work hours not being the same as a middle manager using a pick up as a tax dodge shouldn’t really be a hard concept to grasp either.

If you use a work vehicle for non-work, it's a benefit because you then don't need your own car. So you get taxed on it. Really simple.

Teslas are zero or low BIK as an incentive to reduce transport emissions. Again pretty simple, governments use tax to incentivise people all the time.

I predict a sudden spike in crew cab van sales.

https://www.ford.co.uk/vans-and-pickups/transit-custom/trail

If you use a work vehicle for non-work, it’s a benefit because you then don’t need your own car. So you get taxed on it. Really simple.

Nothing new there, you don't have to be patronising. I already pay BIK tax on my work van that I use for personal duties. Always have done. Being a shitty work van that's also (mostly) used for construction work, that rate is (for now) lower than a posh company car and rightly so imo

Teslas are zero or low BIK as an incentive to reduce transport emissions. Again pretty simple, governments use tax to incentivise people all the time

To incentivise people who probably don’t actually need a company vehicle.

Does this mean the price of 2nd hand double cab trucks is going to drop? Do hope so, could really do with replacing ours.

No they'll go up as new supply into the market will be decimated.

This is a tax on all of us. Most are bought by the trades & self employed, and while I'd agree many if those are unnecessary for the job in hand and so just a cheap vehicle, it means that their cost base will go up, and therefore so will everyone else's. Tax loopholes like this don't benefit rich corporations they benefit everyday individuals just making a regular living, and so closing them just makes everyone's everyday a bit harder while the big corporations continue to funnel tax through cheap offshore offices and every other wheeze available.

To incentivise people who probably don’t actually need a company vehicle.

Yes, it would have been better to take the money and put it into some other EV grant scheme available to everyone, but I do think that the incentive has resulted in far more EVs on the road which means there is now a far better used supply; this has also created huge growth in EV charging infrastructure.

To incentivise people who probably don’t actually need a company vehicle.

Which is probably fair. BIK rules also sweep up people who e.g. use the NHS lease scheme which isn’t really a company vehicle.

Maybe they'll be a take up in double cabs being sold officially without rear seats, and retro fitted afterwards, Like you can with the Suzuki Jimny. Personally I prefer vans but can see why people have them as they're nicer things to run about in, usually more torque for towing and better off road.

so if I want to have private use of my diesel company vehicle , which I have no choice of vehicle due to my job, I have to pay more than management with their flashy Tesla.

The scheme applies to everyone, and all vehicles, so if you have a choice of a diesel golf or an id3, the latter will cost you less even if the list price is higher. It's nothing to do with management

I already pay BIK tax on my work van that I use for personal duties. Always have done. Being a shitty work van that’s also (mostly) used for construction work, that rate is (for now) lower than a posh company car and rightly so

That continues to be the case for an extended cab pickups, which can also continue to be used for commuting to/from work.

AINAE but are double cabs with 500kg payload a bit of a UK thing than sprang up in response to the tax saving ?  They seem to be pretty flashy rather than utilitarian.

However, these 400bhp PHEV vehicles (see also Range Rover P400e) aren’t really that are they? They are usually a 300(ish) 2l with an electric boost (for as long as it lasts – probably not that long), or it get’s used up trundling about locally purely on the motors. That said a 2l in a Volvo estate is going to fare better than in a big Range Rover

But – I am going to research and see if real world usage of these proves me wrong and it might well be on the list – especially if the emissions will make it beneficial to buy through the Ltd company (usually not)

biscuits anyone?

The tax rules were tightened up a bit to catch out PHEVs in name only. EV range is now part of the calculation

Interestingly I think the legislation affects vans too

If a vehicle has side windows behind the driver and passenger doors, it is also unlikely to fall within this exception. This is particularly so if it is fitted, or is capable of being fitted, with additional seating behind the row which includes the driver. This remains true whether or not those additional seats are in the vehicle at the time.

Nearly all crew cab vans have an extra set of windows so will be counted as cars

better off road

The furthest off road most have these have gone is to park on the pavement.

As @jonnyboi has said flash DC pickups seem to be a UK thing driven by tax.

WRT combis, I suspect it’ll be a case of it’s a van with van speed limits and tax, or it’s a car with car speed limits and tax. As above I gather HMRC successfully challenged Coca Cola on this.

Wonder what they will class a Disco Commercial as – currently, it’s a van? Won’t affect my old knacker of a ’16 plate D4, but (having had one fairly recently and may buy another), will they apply the rule to a new Disco 5 Commercial? They only have 2 seats though.

No seats in the back, it's a van and taxed as one.

The number that I see being driven poorly on my commuting days I reckon it's a good thing that the perk ones will be removed from the roads over time.

All the self-employed trades I've ever used have arrived in Vivarros, T5s and connect type vans. Not one has a crew-cab as they are not fit for trade use, too low a payload, insecure rear deck area and no privacy for tool storage.

The scheme applies to everyone, and all vehicles, so if you have a choice of a diesel golf or an id3, the latter will cost you less even if the list price is higher. It’s nothing to do with management

Actually what I meant was, a commercial lumped into car tax that the employee has no choice in, will mean they pay more BIK if they want private use than one who has a choice of an electric car?

Can’t stand pickups myself but am aware most commercials are not chosen by the employee.

All the self-employed trades I’ve ever used have arrived in Vivarros, T5s and connect type vans. Not one has a crew-cab as they are not fit for trade use, too low a payload, insecure rear deck area and no privacy for tool storage.

Payload is similar for a pickup to a standard size van, but the other points apply. Depends what you're doing and where you are. Round here pickup usage is high, its probably 1/50 of total vehicles, increasing to 1/20 in the more rural spots. Its as much about the towing and 4x4 capabilities as anything else round here (Rural county Durham). That said, of the 7 people I know with pickups, 1 is a single cab, 2 are definitely personally owned not via a company, 2 are farmers, no idea on how they're owned or whether this ruling will effect them, 1 works for Nissan so almost certainly isn't falling under this ruling, which leaves 1 probably via their company, but to be fair, he does use it for work daily.

What will likely happen is just like our neighbours on our trading estate you end up with a Van and an EV per person, so even less tax being paid to HMRC overall.

My default assumption is that they have always been a tax dodge. Why a businessman needs to put a huge new bling pickup through the books for no business reason is beyond me. Proper van or liveried pickup is a tool for a job. But the ones trying to kill me aren’t.

Proper van or liveried pickup is a tool for a job

Can't have my pickup (when I own one) liveried on main contractor sites. It is fully chapter 8 stickered up usually though

Can’t have my pickup (when I own one) liveried on main contractor sites. It is fully chapter 8 stickered up usually though

None of our vehicles are sign written. Compressed gas sticker and hi viz at the most.
We did run a pickup for a bit, but it was a 51 plate L200 that looked like it should have an AA gun on the back with some insurgents hanging off it.
It was horrible to drive, I can only assume new ones are significantly better.

We did run a pickup for a bit, but it was a 51 plate L200

They are horrific things. Others are much better

It won't change much TBH. It certainly won't raise much tax in the whole scheme of things.

Some company directors will pay themselves what they need to to cover the BIK or decide to drive a Range Rover or G Wagon of some sort, unlikely to be an EV as there aren't any or if they want a pickup they will get a Raptor which is classed as a car already as it doesn't meet the VAT/commercial requirements as it carries less than a tonne. It isn't likely to stop people driving large vehicles if that is what some are hoping. I think it will mean more vehicles will be built. A bit like the scrappage scheme.. Which was a disaster.

If you are thinking  "Go EV" have a look at Harry's Garage on YT, he has gone from Hybrid and EV back to Diesel and explains quite well why on his channel.

If you are thinking “Go EV” have a look at Harry’s Garage on YT, he has gone from Hybrid and EV back to Diesel and explains quite well why on his channel.

You know what's more ecologically sound than buying either a hybrid a diesel, and an EV in quick succession?

Not buying a car, that's better for everyone.

(preferably at all, 2nd preference just not replacing one you already have every time you feel like it)

But the taxman is going to make me poorer if I keep the vehicle I have and I need to travel for various reasons for work and pleasure.. I'm sure the government and places like Bike Park Wales would like me to be able to visit and spend money here and there occasionally?

Out of interest does anyone know the difference in BIK tax in a Tesla type thing and a pickup?

Electric cars are a percentage (currently 1% I think) of the retail value. That percentage will edge up each year. The Disco 5 Commercial I have is a flat rate of £3,500 p.a. BIK.

Wonder what they will class a Disco Commercial as – currently, it’s a van? Won’t affect my old knacker of a ’16 plate D4, but (having had one fairly recently and may buy another), will they apply the rule to a new Disco 5 Commercial? They only have 2 seats though.

I believe the Discovery and Defender commercials/hard tops are exempt since they are converted to be strictly two seaters, with the rear windows blanked off by hard plastic guards and no winder mechanism. At least mine is.

But the taxman is going to make me poorer if I keep the vehicle I have and I need to travel for various reasons for work and pleasure.. I’m sure the government and places like Bike Park Wales would like me to be able to visit and spend money here and there occasionally?

So pay an appropriate amount of tax for the financial benefit you get from it (i.e. how much would it cost you to buy and run a similar "car", 20/40/45% +N.I of that).

All that's changing is you won't benefit from the cheaper flat rate valuation of commercial vehicles.

Or just stop using a great big truck for personal trips and pay less tax than you do now.

AINAE but are double cabs with 500kg payload a bit of a UK thing than sprang up in response to the tax saving ? They seem to be pretty flashy rather than utilitarian

Needs to carry 1 ton to gets all the benefits tax wise .
I had a Wildtrak for 18 months *. Whilst it was a great vehicle, with a lockable cover, you could never leave tools in there for fear someone running a knife through the roll cover to open it up. Went back to a van after selling it for a little more than I paid for it ( just post covid times).

*didn't kill or maim any cyclists or pedestrians in that period

Or just stop using a great big truck for personal trips and pay less tax than you do now.

Or don't declare that usage. Lets not kid ourselves thats what's going to happen in a lot of cases like it does for double cab vans, it is after all a self-declared system, there's no policing of it (AFAIK).

I’ve noticed a lot of firms like Van Haven, Urban etc advertise the fact you can buy and run the vehicle “tax efficiently” through your company.
“On the books” it’s a panel van , commercial disco / defender etc , but they will add seats and all the tarty bits to make it into a Kombi or 5 seater.
Are they technically encouraging you to commit fraud ?

However, these 400bhp PHEV vehicles (see also Range Rover P400e) aren’t really that are they? They are usually a 300(ish) 2l with an electric boost (for as long as it lasts – probably not that long), or it get’s used up trundling about locally purely on the motors. That said a 2l in a Volvo estate is going to fare better than in a big Range Rover

But – I am going to research and see if real world usage of these proves me wrong and it might well be on the list – especially if the emissions will make it beneficial to buy through the Ltd company (usually not)

The RR sport 440e ( now the 460e) has a WTLP figure of 70 odd miles on pure leccy. It will actually comfortably do 50 on a mix of dual carriageway and single lane roads. More than enough for most journeys

@revs, Seat conversions may be tricky when it comes to insurance. But yes, I know lots of people have been doing this for a long time.

I guess Urban would say they are supplying demand rather than encouraging fraud. It's up to the customer to tell DLVA and their accountant..

FYI. If its size that you are worried about a Mondeo is only 500mm shorter than a Ranger and the same length as a Custom LWB the ranger is narrower than the Custom.

Same 2l Engine

FYI. If its size that you are worried about a Mondeo is only 500mm shorter than a Ranger and the same length as a Custom LWB the ranger is narrower than the Custom.

And the bonnet height?

Lower than a Scania.

But 100mm different (Roughly) at the front.

I’ve noticed a lot of firms like Van Haven, Urban etc advertise the fact you can buy and run the vehicle “tax efficiently” through your company.
“On the books” it’s a panel van , commercial disco / defender etc , but they will add seats and all the tarty bits to make it into a Kombi or 5 seater.
Are they technically encouraging you to commit fraud ?

I wonder what happens to these vehicles when they are 3 years old and need an MoT?

Take the seats out, hand it back to the lease Co. or flog it.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202208028400102?sort=relevance&advertising-location=at_cars&keywords=commercial&make=Land%20Rover&model=Discovery&page=3&postcode=bs9%201ds&fromsra

They got MOTd and then run through a major auction house would be my guess

ETA: assuming they are lease company vehicles. If they are main dealer leased then Probably end up on the forecourt

What will likely happen is just like our neighbours on our trading estate you end up with a Van and an EV per person, so even less tax being paid to HMRC overall.

I admire your optimism that VED will not be payable on EV's in the future. (It's going to irk @Rone) The Chancellor will always seek to balance the books on revenue.

Will this affect VED as well in the future? Don't they currently pay the van rate (£300?) rather than the higher rate based on CO2 emissions?

I wonder what happens to these vehicles when they are 3 years old and need an MoT?

A colleague had one, V5 etc all correctly showed it as a 5 seater. The only difference to the near identical one from another colleague was the rear trim was close, but not exactly as per Landrovers, and some of the cosmetic stuff on the outside like wing mirrors were black plastic. Unless they were parked next to each other you'd never know (other than he'd tell you how much cheaper it was).

Ironically (un-ironically?) he'd come in a £500 shitbox Berlingo if he actually hat to carry any gear as it was much bigger and more economical!

Will this affect VED as well in the future? Don’t they currently pay the van rate (£300?) rather than the higher rate based on CO2 emissions?

I suspect you're assuming more joined-up thinking from HMG than the reality.

I wonder what happens to these vehicles when they are 3 years old and need an MoT?

Tested as presented and no ****s given

Why do so many of them (and SUVs) sound like they're named after butt plugs?  Add "Anal" to the names of so many of them and you can't look at them in the same way again. The OG Nissan and Toyota are almost notable by being the exception.  Even the Mercedes is called the 'x-class'

Discovery

Maverick

Ranger

Ram

Avenger
Renegade
Rogue
Commander
Ascender
Defender

Trailblazer
Pathfinder
Explorer
Blazer
Wrangler
Outlander

Looks like 2 door trucks are exempt which is good.

Need to carry a large or heavy load, go off road or both - a single/extended cab will be better.

Only use for a 4 door commercially is if the higher gross weight gives a slightly better towing performance/legal ability?

If a vehicle has side windows behind the driver and passenger doors

I've always thought it's a shame that this is part of the calculation (more than a shame - scandalous really). Seating I understand. But windows - thats a fairly useful feature for driving. You know, seeing things - safety - avoiding collisions and death and injury. Vans have pretty bad blind spots on the passenger side - smaller vans in particular. Our road junctions haven't all been built with Van sight-line in mind - theres one near Edinburgh thats an absolute game of Russian roulette for commercial vehicles. In France for instance berlingo sized vans will often have windows behind the B pillar from the factory even through theres no seating there - fitted so the driver can see whats around them properly.

Looks like 2 door trucks are exempt which is good.

Need to carry a large or heavy load, go off road or both – a single/extended cab will be better.

They're often specced for lower carrying capacity (in weight terms) even though they have a larger bed, and also a lower towing capacity. (Although theres been some changes in towing regs in recent years so not sure if the latter is still the case.) The dual cab pickups have simultaneously been in a weird pair of loopholes where they've not been considered to be 'cars' in the eyes of VAT / BIK but they haven't been treated as 'vans/commercials' by VOSA /DVSA so sat outside their scope in terms of towing / train-weights / tacos /operators licences. 2 seat pickups - being deemed vans- tend to have their spec limited in terms of GVW kept low to cater for DVSA and MOT regs that pertain to vans but not to cars.

theres one near Edinburgh thats an absolute game of Russian roulette for commercial vehicles

The A703 coming from Penicuik direction, joining the A702 at Hillend. I claim my £5 (and feel lucky to have survived that junction on several occasions when we had a panel van)

I claim my £5

Paypal gift?

Looks like 2 door trucks are exempt which is good.

Need to carry a large or heavy load, go off road or both – a single/extended cab will be better.

Trouble is, they are generally very spartan spec wise - personal use or not, if I'm travelling 30k miles a year for work, I want it to be a nice place to sit

Trouble is, they are generally very spartan spec wise – personal use or not, if I’m travelling 30k miles a year for work, I want it to be a nice place to sit

Manufacturers only offering the nice trims in the 4 door versions I think brings us back to the start of this thread -  because most people were buying them as tax dodging family SUVs.

Still, they've got a few months to figure out how to put the nice seats, dashboard and aircon into the single cabs.

I remain mystified by the 'contractor'/'trades' that need a 4x4 pickup in the UK.  Where are you working that isn't accessible by road?

the ones I see in the southeast/London have clearly never got the wheels dirty - theres a scaffolding liveried one a couple of streets away, a few gardeners, an electrician and a surprising number of personal trainers.

None of these vehicles are going off road.

I remain mystified by the ‘contractor’/’trades’ that need a 4×4 pickup in the UK.

Need has nothing to do with it. They're peacocks' feathers.