You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Ahead of the local elections in May, this just dropped through the door
[img] 
[/img]
Newsnight the other night were saying that this is being rushed in without sufficient planning and reporting that some councils are requesting a police presence at polling stations in anticipation of people kicking off when being told they can't vote.
Its also been pointed out that this is a 'solution' to a problem that doesn't exist, as voter fraud simply isn't an issue in this country
I can't see this as anything other than a corruption of democracy by the Tory's in an attempt to pervert the electoral process in their favour. For example you can use an Oyster card as ID, but only an over 60's Oyster card. Why would that be then?
Was everyone even aware of this?
"Passport", just current or also expired?
Long overdue. Should cut down on voter fraud in certain areas.
I was aware of it, yeah. To be fair I have seen posters around the place.
Its also been pointed out that this is a ‘solution’ to a problem that doesn’t exist, as voter fraud simply isn’t an issue in this country
I can’t see this as anything other than a corruption of democracy by the Tory’s in an attempt to pervert the electoral process in their favour.
I would agree.
Seems I missed a visit from our prospective Tory councillor this morning, which is a shame...
Passport and driving licence photo card don't have to be valid now iirc, simply has to have a photo that represents how you look today.
I've started the ball rolling for a postal vote.
Long overdue. Should cut down on voter fraud in certain areas.
Care to expand with actual facts? I'll give you a chance to pull them together whilst I put the kettle on, we're out of biscuits though.
Long overdue. Should cut down on voter fraud in certain areas.
It'll cut it by 50% i guess.
From 4 people, down to 2...
Long overdue. Should cut down on voter fraud in certain areas.
These "certain areas", is that where you live and do you want to admit a crime?
FWIW I've voted for 40 years now and not once has anyone used my vote, any of my family or friends (because it'd certainly be a story to tell) or have I ever heard of an issue anywhere I've ever lived.
@daveylad you mean the "widespread" voter fraud that the proponents of this scheme can't show evidence for while the implementation of this scheme will disenfranchise a far greater number of people (evidence for this has been shown).
This isn't about stopping voter fraud, this is about (non-tory) voter suppression.
Completely unnecessary.
It's been well publicised but there will be some who say...news to me.
If FB, twitter and some bloke down the pub are your news sources...
Seen it around the internet for a few months now. We both postal vote though...
Its also been pointed out that this is a ‘solution’ to a problem that doesn’t exist, as voter fraud simply isn’t an issue in this country
I can’t see this as anything other than a corruption of democracy by the Tory’s in an attempt to pervert the electoral process in their favour.
Agreed on the first part. No doubt the second is true too but surely the older generation are the ones less likely to have photo id?
Look at the past posts by daveylad, they clearly like low effort trolls (and are often effective tbf...)
Completely unnecessary.
It's been well publicised but there will be some who say...news to me.
If FB, twitter and some bloke down the pub are your news sources...
chvck - your comment about daveylad is right; piss poor troll - another on the 'ignore' list.
I've got an Over 60 Oyster Card and can assure everyone that I will certainly NOT be voting Tory!
IIRC there's more electoral fraud convictions and cautions for the candidates and their organisations (several thousand people involved) than the electorate (near as dammit 50 million people).
voter fraud is rare because no one monitors it,
it would be interesting to see how many out of 100 voters are legit,
it'd be like watching a police camera action show, when speeding/drunk motorists cannot remember their own name let alone be carrying any ID.
Was everyone even aware of this?
Yes - it's been publicised a fair bit.
Anyway, it's good to see Bury Council haven't been splurging taxpayers money on logo design! 🤣
Swiss 721 Black - solid yellow with black keyline. 👌👌
Since the last general election, we've had more prime ministers than convictions for election fraud* - remind me what the problem was?
*not fact checked, but close enough
Tory gerrymandering. Verging on corruption and vote stealing.
That the demographic least likely to have photo I.D. are also the least likely to vote Tory.
The only positive I can see is that this demographic are more likely to carry it with them, and therefore less likely to turn up to vote without it.
In May, any one else up for trying to use their expired passport as ID?
it must be a conspiracy, obvs
yep.. another barrier for against people to vote.. only for those that can drive or go on holiday can. Suprised they arent also asking for deeds on property as evidence too. That should win them the election.
voter fraud is rare because no one monitors it,
Ever turned up and the poll staff tell you you've already voted? Me neither.
I like @daveylad's posts. They remind me why I no longer use Facebook or Twitter. Unusual that they post their moronic shit here, but I guess we all need a hobby.
For anyone who doesn't believe electoral fraud is taking place in this country don't you remember what was written on the side of that ****ing bus! 🙂
voter fraud is rare because no one monitors it,
Excellent. Let's not monitor it, then.
For anyone who doesn’t believe electoral fraud is taking place in this country don’t you remember what was written on the side of that **** bus!
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Photo ID is so last century, I would expect nothing less than a retina scan in my village hall before being allowed my excercise democratic right to marginally and pointlessly chip away at the massive Tory majority of my local MP's safe seat.
If fraud were happening then you'd get turned away at the station wouldn't you? As your name would have been ticked off the list?
voter fraud is rare because no one monitors it
Except they do, the parties all send representatives to the polling stations and counts. There are also independent checkers. And also all this stuff is stuck in a big data machine by people more clever than me. And none of those three sets of checks have ever come up with any major fraud!
One thing we can do is help people who don't have ID to get it.
I work at a local drop-in centre and we'll be asking everyone who comes in if they have photo ID or need help with getting a voter ID document if they don't - we have one month and people need to be registered to vote to begin with
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/voter-id
If you don't have accepted photo ID, you can apply for a free voter ID document, which is known as a Voter Authority Certificate.
The deadline to apply for a Voter Authority Certificate for the local elections in England on 4 May 2023 is 5pm on Tuesday 25 April 2023.
I'm not much of a facebook or twitter user and maybe tiktok reaches more young people anyway but hopefully this is already getting shared, it's worth sharing widely.
Has anything been said what will happen if turnout is massively down on average? Or will we turn a blind eye to that fraud?
One thing we can do is help people who don’t have ID to get it.
I work at a local drop-in centre and we’ll be asking everyone who comes in if they have photo ID or need help with getting a voter ID document if they don’t – we have one month and people need to be registered to vote to begin with
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/voter-id
If you don’t have accepted photo ID, you can apply for a free voter ID document, which is known as a Voter Authority Certificate.
The deadline to apply for a Voter Authority Certificate for the local elections in England on 4 May 2023 is 5pm on Tuesday 25 April 2023.
I’m not much of a facebook or twitter user and maybe tiktok reaches more young people anyway but hopefully this is already getting shared, it’s worth sharing widely.
This is a good point, I've just stuck it on our local Facebook group
Has anything been said what will happen if turnout is massively down on average? Or will we turn a blind eye to that fraud?
Thats the aim of it so nothing will be done. I doubt we will see a massive drop but it will have a disproportionate effect on young, urban, lower income folk ie labour voters
Its common in many other countries - I don't see it being a problem.
In fact, it might bite the Conservatives in the ass because many older voters don't have in-date passports, photo ID, or even know what time of day it is.
Imagine Mrs B. Racist turning up to the polling station on a cold and rainy day and being turned away. "I'm not bloody getting the bus all the way home to pick up my passport!"
they know it will disproportionately effect labour voters. thats why it has been done. also note the forms of ID.
Imagine Mrs B. Racist turning up to the polling station on a cold and rainy day and being turned away. “I’m not bloody getting the bus all the way home to pick up my passport!”
But this is the problem, passport or not - old Mrs B.Racist will still likely be able to vote with their bus pass. Worse still, younger voters with a similar travel cards can't use them to vote.
many older voters don’t have in-date passports
It doesn't have to be in date, as long as it's still recognisably you.
Has anything been said what will happen if turnout is massively down on average? Or will we turn a blind eye to that fraud
They’ll be popping the champagne corks at Tory central office as it’ll mean mission accomplished. They don’t even bother to try and hide their moves to undermine democracy. Just another part of the toxic legacy of Boris Johnson
Still not sure why it disadvantages left-wing voters. There's got to be just as many tatted-up BNP voters without ID to balance things out!
I can't wait for my next Poll Clerk stint and all the people getting assey about this 🙄😔😔😔😔
But this is the problem, passport or not – old Mrs B.Racist will still likely be able to vote with their bus pass. Worse still, younger voters with a similar travel cards can’t use them to vote.
I had no idea about this one - that has to fail on age discrimination somehow, at least?
please dont shout, just asking - who doesnt have ID these days, really? and why would it happen to be all one type of voter? Presumably you need ID to work, to drive, to have a bank account, to get benefits - what am i missing, please enlighten me. thanks, appreciate it if you didnt shout.
please dont shout, just asking – who doesnt have ID these days, really? and why would it happen to be all one type of voter? Presumably you need ID to work, to drive, to have a bank account, to get benefits – what am i missing, please enlighten me. thanks, appreciate it if you didnt shout.
Apart from drive you don't don't need photo I'd for any of those things. I know this because my sister doesn't - it's a bit of a pain to get access to some stuff but perfectly possible to live without it
It's all about what type of ID they're accepting. It's seems to have been selectively chosen to favour Tory demographics, like the Bus Pass/Student Travel Card example above..
That the demographic least likely to have photo I.D. are also the least likely to vote Tory.
There's a poster about needing ID at the entrance to the Fruit Market in Bristol, it's been replaced a few times after it was daubed with a more suitably NSFW sweary version a few times. They've left the brambles grow over it as a natural barbed wire since the last replacement.
I can’t wait for my next Poll Clerk stint and all the people getting assey about this 🙄😔😔😔😔
My local polling clerk works at the local shop and he's bricking it at the prospect of turning away some of the locals who will most definitely not have any legal ID.
The reason the Tories will net gain on this is that they have auch higher postal voter take up than Labour, because of both age and wealth profile of voters - older voters much more likely to hold postal votes
Locally we've been encouraging people to take up postal votes.
As well as no ID, there will be lots of people who will not realise the ID issue but have ID, who bowl up to polling stations without ID , get turned away and can't be arsed to go back. We have enough trouble getting people out to vote in the first place
The whole thing stinks
I listened to a podcast recently (can’t remember which one) where they considered this issue. General consensus was that it was unnecessary, would probably have a noticeable effect on turnout but didn’t really favour one party over another. It’s basically a “change in behaviour” and older people tend to find that more of a challenge (even if they have ID they don’t tend to carry it and aren’t used to producing it to vote) but younger folk/minorities etc may be less likely to have some forms of ID.
One thing we can be sure of is that pollsters will be looking hard for any evidence that it favours one or other party. So we’ll soon find out.
like the Bus Pass/Student Travel Card example
Is that UK wide? I thought I heard something about it being a London thing but may have misheard
... roverpig - not convinced, we are investing a lot of time making sure our prospective voters know about this whilst the Tories do bugger all
Is that UK wide? I thought I heard something about it being a London thing but may have misheard
Definitely a thing here in Wales as the Welsh Assembly have had to assure students that they won't be turned away if they try to use their various student ID's.
- in person voter fraud doesn't happen, beyond myth making anecdotes
- postal vote fraud has been shown to happen, and prosecutions have occurred
- change the rules to push people away from in person voting to postal votes
Who does that make sense to? No-one. Unless you run a business which provides services for postal voting.
Anyway, I think it's too late for May, but GET YOUR POSTAL VOTE ready for future elections... it's not worth risking something happening on the day of the ballot that stops you from voting in person, like leaving your wallet at work or similar. As for young people... get your provisional driving license on day one, even if you never intend to drive. Yes, it costs, but voting is no longer free... deal with it. You'll need it for clubbing soon anyway.
Ah so you need a passport or a driving licence specifically? Ok. Yeah a passport is 80 odd quid and a bit of drama to get I guess.
Ok. Yeah a passport is 80 odd quid and a bit of drama to get I guess.
I’m sure I’ve seen ads for a free voter ID?
Ah so you need a passport or a driving licence specifically?
No, there are other things being provided, and for free.. but that's exactly the kind of thing you're going to lose between votes... because what else would you use it for? No one's going to bother with that pointless red tape. Remember the Citizen IDs provided for youngsters to prove their age? Utter waste of time.
Genuinely looking forward to seeing @daveylad’s voter fraud info.
Well, I would just like to say, that I for one, am extremely glad...
...that I wasn't holding my breath 😳
There is obviously only one reason why the government have introduced voter ID, they feel that it will benefit them, they certainly wouldn't be doing it if they thought it would disadvantage them.
It will of course affect the turnout, some people, an yet unknown number, will turn up and not be able to vote. But I am not convinced that it will necessarily benefit the Tories.
I believe that any sort of ID with a photo will be acceptable, there really can't be that many people without any ID with a photo. Anyone who hasn't is probably the sort of person who isn't likely to be registered to vote anyway imo.
The people mostly likely to forget to take ID imo are dotty old dears, I can't see that would give the Tories an advantage.
Btw why is widely assumed the daveylad must be a 'troll'? However unpopular this idea might be it really isn't feasible to assume that everyone must be opposed to it and the only people to express support must therefore be trolls.
There will obviously be people who think that it is a good idea, why would it not include anyone on stw?
Long overdue. Should cut down on voter fraud in certain areas.
So, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, Georgia and Arizona…
Or did you have somewhere else in mind?
who doesnt have ID these days, really?
Well, my late partner wouldn’t have been able to, her passport had run out, she didn’t have a current driver’s license, because of health issues, (seizures), and she didn’t need ID for anything else. I do have a driver’s licence, which is fortunate because I’ve no idea where my old passport is, and wherever it is it’s got my birth certificate with it, just to complicate getting a replacement.
Yeah a passport is 80 odd quid and a bit of drama to get I guess.
Nobody will be able to get one after 3 April when the staff go on strike for 5 weeks. Currently sweating on mine arriving before they shut up shop. It's printed just awaiting despatch.
im happy to take my now expired Danish passport with holes cut in it with me and show them that first, will take my current one as backup
if I remember correctly we had a thread on this?
It is 💩.
What next? ‘Papers please’ when entering a civic building?
As long as I have my polling card that should be sufficient. I should not have to prove identity. If there is concern then the administrator must disprove my identity!
Seems we are moving towards lack of trust of the electorate. 😢
Since I have a postal vote and am ‘old’ it’s not a problem for me. For younger folks? A disaster in terms of representation.
there really can’t be that many people without any ID with a photo. Anyone who hasn’t is probably the sort of person who isn’t likely to be registered to vote anyway imo.
I'll disagree. My wife, for example. We've not moved house since photocard driving licences so still have the paper ones, and she doesn't travel abroad. She'll definitely vote (being a former Labour councillor). Fortunately she has a postal vote.
I’ll disagree. My wife, for example.
Surely your wife isn't "that many people"?
What next? ‘Papers please’ when entering a civic building?
I don't support the introduction of voter ID because I don't think it is necessary, and it just provides another obstacle to deal with, voting should be very easy.
However voter ID is the norm in most countries, not many countries don't require ID to vote.
So I don't think this represents some sort of slippery slope which will eventually result in having to show your papers to the Gestapo before boarding an intercity train.
I think people will simply adjust their behaviour so that taking ID to vote will be as normal and expected as an oyster card is for getting onto a bus.
In principle, sounds like a good idea, but not once you realise the real motivation and the practical effects.
For example you can use an Oyster card as ID, but only an over 60’s Oyster card. Why would that be then?
Apparently: "To get an over 60s Oyster card, you have to provide proof of identity, ie a valid passport. That's why it counts as valid ID, and not the standard over 18"
Apparently: “To get an over 60s Oyster card, you have to provide proof of identity, ie a valid passport.
I don't think it's that. The over 60s Oyster card is an entitlement, you can't lend to someone else, therefore it has a photo and the name of the card holder.
Pay as you go Oyster card you can lend to anyone, it isn't proof of identity.
However voter ID is the norm in most countries, not many countries don’t require ID to vote.
so is carrying identity papers. so ****ing what? other countries do it so it's ok? you get a polling card sent through the post. you pay council tax which triggers this. casting your vote should be as simple as it can be.
so is carrying identity papers. so **** what? other countries do it so it’s ok?
This isn't about carrying identity papers. It's about showing voter ID.
The next Labour government get repeal it if they want. It isn't complicated legislation.
it's an unnecessary barrier to voting and totally unwarranted.
Yeah I made that point in the paragraph before the one you quoted.
I don’t have any valid photo I.D. Old paper driving licence and a passport that expired many years ago with a photo of me when I was 19.
My voter certificate arrived last week a couple of days after applying online.
So I don’t think this represents some sort of slippery slope which will eventually result in having to show your papers to the Gestapo before boarding an intercity train.
You live in (or close to) an area policed by the Met. Are you unable to conceive of someone within that organisation abusing their power?
That's why all rational people should oppose the introduction of ID cards. Then there's the fabulous record of government IT projects. If we can't afford to do HS2 properly we certainly can't afford IBM or Fujitsu implementing a national ID scheme.
Btw why is widely assumed the daveylad must be a ‘troll’?
Because they log on, say something inflammatory then disappear. Their posting history is a jumble of Daily Mail soundbites and Facebook opinion...if they were not a troll they would surely back up their bile?
That the demographic least likely to have photo I.D. are also the least likely to vote Tory.
In the spirit of the this thread do we have any evidence for this?
Genuine question. Was this change opposed by other parties?
I’ll answer my own question
Huge evidence for marginalised groups not having id.
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/38405/html/
Did labour vote against it?
Everyone voted against it, apart from Conservatives and the DUP.
as normal and expected as an oyster card is for getting onto a bus
🤣🤣 come again? ‘Oyster card’? Useful in London, NBG elsewhere and thus I’d argue neither normal nor expected. Just as we should treat voter ID: not normal, should not be expected, and another hurdle to proper representation.
I worked in counter fraud years ago for a local authority. We did not have much investment in this area. Can't comment on how this has changed but I do know around 5 years ago there was a big recruitment drive in preparation for this. Not sure how much is in counter fraud but I've never seen a job advertised. They might have been internally advertised.
Voter fraud does exist as we were asked to help out on a case a long time ago. Voter cards were collected, some purchased or they were told who to vote for. It meant someone was elected who shouldn't have been. We wanted the results publishing but it was very political and kept quiet. In my experience it was more common on councillors rather than MPs but that might be down to levels of sophistication.
If you think that voter fraud doesn't happen or this is just a conservative plot to get re elected then you don't have a background in counter fraud investigations. Perhaps it just makes me very cynical.
The only problem I have with this is how badly it has been advertised and that a lot of people will turn up without sufficient ID. I'm not surprised they want a police presence. I'd also like to know what document examination training the staff have had. Last time I helped out on polling day a lot of staff were retired staff who used to work for the local authority. I suspect the first time this happens it will be very relaxed and get stricter as it gets embedded and people get used to it.
I don't understand what the resistance to ID is and making sure the results are reliable? Even with ID people will still be told who to vote for or be paid to vote for someone.