[Closed] PhD blues

Yes and I left

Do think about it but I dont regret it

Yes and I left

If you don't mind me asking what did you do when you left? Did you stick to the same industry as your undergraduate degree? Have any difficulties finding work?

Half a dozen of my friends from uni started PhDs. Only one finished.

HTH 🙂

Why bother with a PhD if you don't want to be an academic?

Yes, but I stuck it out (all 4 years in the end) and treated it as a-means-to-an-end - didn't get drawn into the academic posturing/politics as I knew I was getting out and into industry once it was done. It was just a way of making me more employable in the job I wanted (which it did).

I finished mine here in Australia, did 2 post-docs (Holland and London) before jacking it in to become a secondary-school teacher and dragging my family back to Aus.
It is a long slog, especially if you don't enjoy it, but all Ph>D's (well most) have their ups and downs with collections of disasters. At least you aren't in biological sciences, I had a -70C freezer die and lost 6 months of samples along with numerous other problems. I don't think I was really cut out for research.

If you don't mind me asking what did you do when you left?

Did you stick to the same industry as your undergraduate degree?

Have any difficulties finding work?

molgrips - Member

Why bother with a PhD if you don't want to be an academic?

This.

I finished mine, and loved every minute of it. In fact, I did more riding when I was a doctoral student, but I used my bike as a cure for word block. And I got word block alot.

But don't do it unless you love academia. There is no point as far as I'm concerned.

Don't know if I can help with answering your question. Just to say i totally sympathize!

I am trying to finish a PhD at the moment. I have had waves of doubt throughout the last four years. If I am honest, I wish I hadn't started. I should have probably picked a taught masters in the area instead - I would have been spoon-fed the information, and it would have been constrained to a year. I could have learned more on the job afterwards.

The thing that brings me down with the PhD is the sense of complete isolation. I generally find it far more motivating to work in a team of people!

Might change my negative view if I ever get the damn thing. It hasn't been the inspiring thing I hoped it would be. It also hasn't been the doss my working friends think it is. I have lost count of how many weekends I have worked!

One thing I would say is that it has helped me become a lot better self-learning. And I have learned a lot. Think my research is probably a bit weak though!

I work in engineering. I and I share some of your feelings about the tech industry.

Anyway back to the dreaded thesis...

I'm two years into a PhD and have just jacked it in to get a job - luckily in a related field so what I've done so far hasn't been totally wasted.

As others have said above, it's not a lot of use in getting a job, in fact one of the things that made me jack it in was that in job interviews it was coming over as a negative. I found myself having to defend why I was becoming an out of touch, over qualified but then not qualified to really do anything practical, academic!

Yes, all PhDs go thru bad patches and a bit of self doubt, but if you really aren't interested in becoming an academic, you have no motivation for your subject, and don't like the industry you'd go into at the end of it - then why put yourself thru three years of torture?

But, and its a big but - if you don't have a coherent alternative plan at the moment, its probably better to be doing something than nothing. But, like me, use your spare time to plot a good escape into something you do want to do, and go riding 😀

I'd quit if I was you.

I loved my PhD, and am now an academic.

There are lots of things about academia that are terrible, so if you don't have an appetite for the intellectual side of it (i.e. the 'fun' bit, which is all you have to do as a PhD student), it just isn't worth it.

good luck!

Yeah, currently writing up (in theory at least). Pretty depressing and demoralising time in many ways, it can seem to consume all of your life, and all your energy and enthusiasm for anything whatsoever. Not helped by the fact of not wanting to be “an academic” - though I'm lucky in that I have some great colleagues and friends (and supervisors who are both).

However there are some amazing things to doing a PhD which you will rarely get the chance to do otherwise, even if your project is crap (I should know). Take advantage of all of these things as much as possible.

The sun outside makes this even worse I might go out for a ride.

Oh and +1 to fabs and loads of the other stuff above...

[edit] I was feeling like I'm just exiting a massive downer, but reading others' comments on here, I hope I'm not going to get pushed back over the edge again 😉

Thanks for responses everyone.

Why bother with a PhD if you don't want to be an academic?

It opens up a lot of job opportunities as well in the tech industry - many roles are not suitable for graduates. Unfortunately I think I've fallen out of love with the industry anyway, and to be honest even my research area seems a bit pointless to me.

Many people ask me "What is the point?" and I struggle to answer.

At the moment, it just feels like I'm going along with it for the sake of it, and not because I want to. I'm not sure whether this is just a phase, and I'll wake up tomorrow full of renewed vigour and interest in the area.

I have been thinking that for well over a month now though.

But, like me, use your spare time to plot a good escape into something you do want to do, and go riding

This is my current plan.

chambord - Member
I'm a new (First year) PhD student...I am interested in the subject, but can't really see the light at the end of the tunnel.

You can't see the light at the end of the tunnel because you're in your first year. It will appear, it will get brighter, it will dull, at times you'll turn your back on it, but in the end perseverance and guidance from good supervisors will get you to the end.

[b]Many people ask me "What is the point?" and I struggle to answer.[/b]

At the moment, it just feels like I'm going along with it for the sake of it, and not because I want to. I'm not sure whether this is just a phase, and I'll wake up tomorrow full of renewed vigour and interest in the area.

I have been thinking that for well over a month now though.

It's a tough decision, everyone suffers during their PhD (or at least they should). Real contributions to knowledge are not easy to make. So you don't have a reliable baseline measurement for comparison to your own individual case. Have you tried talking with your group, supervisor to get an idea of your performance? Like if you quit tomorrow, would everyone say that was to be expected, or would it shock the whole group?

CompSci Phd here...

Read the book "how to get a phd" phillips & pugh. Probably a copy in your uni library.

I did it fully intending to go back into an industrial R&D setting. Which I've done (I make space robots smarter). It definitely helped me get my current post. They're not just for going into academia.

The thing to remember is that it's the skills you learn during the PhD that are important, not so much the topic itself - it's unlikely to be directly relevant.

However -

(Computer vision and pose estimation

As I speak I'm watching a testbed rover navigate the office using pose estimates from a stereo camera pair.... so there's definitely a lot of application of vision work at the moment!

A few other comments: hardly anyone fails a PhD but 1 in 4 never submit.

My glib response to how a PhD works is always:

1st year work out what the hell you're doing
2nd year do it.
3rd year do it again, properly this time.
4th year write it up.

Highs and lows are normal. Especially when you're working out what to do. Are you self directed (EPSRC scholar or similar) or on a project with fairly clear goals? The first is harder/more uncertain at first I think, but offers more freedom than the second (good or bad!) pros and cons to each.

The above might sound a bit pro-phd - I really think they're not for everyone. You see folk doing them just because they'd no better ideas, or they got offered funding... that's the wrong reason IMO.

At 28 your young enough to do anything you want - take a month off and have a serious think about what you want to do. I binned my PhD in yr 3 and got a job in a related but applied field, in hindsight I should have done something completely different, but I'm there now 🙂

Also:

use your spare time

I see where you went wrong there, don't remember any of that* ;-).

*actually that was just the end of it, rode my bike lots, fenced lots, for most of it.

Can I have a vent too. End of 3rd year here and similar feelings of doubt but too late for me to quit now! Just lost faith in the work I'm doing and resent my supervisor for talking me into it when I should have gone to a more respected university and done a Master's.

You're better taking advice from someone who has come out of the tunnel but my advice would be to leave now if you're not interested in the indusrty and as above use your time to see what's out there. One year out isn't a long time really

You have to enjoy your phd subject or it is going to be really hard!

On the job front, it can be a double edged sword as mentioned above. Mine is definitely a hindrance at the moment as I am 10 months unemployed, with most comments along the lines of "over qualified, under experienced"

Early onset 18 month blues.

Completed mine after almost jacking it in. Two mates did. Now a teacher. Was a means to an end, mind you that end was 3 more years of being paid to be a student. Do i regret it? Nope. would I have done it if I knew then what I know now? Nope.

IA - Member

My glib response to how a PhD works is always:

1st year work out what the hell you're doing
2nd year do it.
3rd year do it again, properly this time.
4th year write it up.

That's very good. I think I may use that if you don't mind (with proper attribution, of course). 8)

This is based on my observation ... only do things that motivate you otherwise it's a waste of time.

My glib response to how a PhD works is always:

1st year work out what the hell you're doing
2nd year do it.
3rd year do it again, properly this time.
4th year write it up.

This sums it up. Lots of the time its a slog <shudders at thought of the literature review>

I worked in industry for almost 10 years before returning to read for an MSc and then a PhD. Even if you dont work in academia then a PhD is still a good thing to have IMHO. They can never take it away with you and makes working overseas a lot easier (hence in my case the MSc and then PhD).

My blues lasted for 18 months of a 3 year engineering PhD. I was looking at novel alloys (intermetallics) and kept on getting silly results - It wasnt till I was in the SEM lab at 8pm at night after searching for 18 months that I had my Eureka moment and realised it was all down to carbon content. Freaking carbon!!!!!

Just ride and think about the topic whist on the bike - both wins!

Good luck and dont let the buggers grind you down!

Completely normal to hit a bad patch (I don't have one myself but I work in the field). Have you spoken to your supervisor or to other support people?

What we find is that undergrads and to a lesser extent masters students are more likely to seek/find help when they need it, phd students tend to assume they're on their own and that this is just part of doing a phd. It's not so with us, it's probably not so with most decent institutions but it's always proved hard for us to get people to the support that's available, at the right time.

Supervisors aren't always helpful with this, even though we push against it there's still an attitude of "If you can't take the heat" from some. It is bollocks though.

There has been a lot of helpful information shared so I'd like to thank everyone for that.

I actually feel a bit better this afternoon, possibly because I've been sat in the park in the sun for 2 hours (With a Feast/Festival of course, I challenge you to find a better icy snack).

I'm going to have a word with my supervisor about everything tomorrow.

Thanks again - not a bad bunch when you're not arguing about wheel sizes ;).

(With a Feast/Festival of course, I challenge you to find a better icy snack).

Dammit, now I want a Feast and I've no idea where I'd get one round here. Truly a prince among iced snacks.

As well as your supervisor, speak to your second supervisor - they'll likely have different opinions - perhaps also a bit more distance which may help. If you don't have a second yet, perhaps now's the time to get that sorted out?

Whatever you do, don't jack it in on the basis of comments on here! There are some absolute push-over perspectives on this thread, and you'd do well to discuss everything in full frankness with your supervisor.

There's a reason why you engaged on a PhD - find out what that was and decide if you still want to be that person. You might feel you let yourself down if you quit now.

Oh, and I very much wish I'd found riding and running before the end of my PhD, when the workload and stress was so great that I cracked and started commuting by bike. Not looked back since. Managed my stress levels, broke the writer's block. Now trying to finish up.

Best of luck.

Nearing the end of my MSc and can't wait to finish!
I loved the subject at the beginning of the year (and before) but this year has really taken the fun out of it. I was considering a PhD in this subject. Glad I didn't! Best of luck to you though.

It's supposed to be bloody hard. Worthwhile things often are. At the end of it, you'll have proved to the world, but most importantly to yourself, that you can turn yourself into an expert in a small corner of your subject area and then do some independent, original work. If you want a job in academia, you need one of the damn things. If you want a job at the cutting edge of any technology (where the good stuff happens) then you have no idea how valuable that PhD, plus maybe a bit of post-doctoral research work (which I found to be much less stressful than the PhD) will be in landing that job.

Good luck.

I'm going to have a word with my supervisor about everything tomorrow.

Thanks again - not a bad bunch when you're not arguing about wheel sizes ;).

So you are going to talk to your supervisor about changing your topic to include computational modelling of 26, 27.5 and 29" wheels and the influence of different size tyres and pressures?

I completed the whole 3 years of my PhD, loved the research, loved running the lab, loved the subject area, hated the lack of support from the uni, understood that my supervisor was in the same boat and struggled with getting funding and general support from the rest of the uni so was unable to fit me in most of the time, got fed up with this about halfway through the final year, but the final nail in the coffin was the complete lack of interest from the funders. After 3 years of work and 5 80 odd page interim reports it was pretty clear they just weren't interested at all about the findings, regardless of potential future financial savings (it was environmental geochemistry and reuse of waste materials).

10 years on and I decided to finally destroy the work I'd been storing.

the letters mean nothing to me and would not impact my day job now anyway.

Get a kite. Go out and fly it. Go back to work. Repeat. Then learn to juggle 😉

You said you like your subject, that's the most important part. PhD's aren't just about becoming an academic. Being interested in what you are studying is the most important part.

Keep at it. Or give it up. Just don't linger. One of my colleagues left after two years with an Mphil, moved to Japan to teach English and never came back. She saves turles now (far cry from Quantum Gravity). I read that about half of PhD students can be classed as clinically depressed at some stage of their studies. You aren't any different, I'm afraid.

r they just weren't interested at all about the findings

Another glib remark I've made about PhDs, with more than a small element of truth:

"A PhD is basically becoming the world expert in something (so specific) nobody else cares about"

Just a bit more empathy - I'm on the home straight of my MBA. I'll be glad to see the back of it in October 😐

One of my friend got a PhD in Engineering in his 30s who later went on to post doc research now he earns less than a secretary. He would be better off being a tube/train driver. Another one gave up his PhD to work with council and he earns more than the one with PhD. Others that I know who become academics struggle ...

If you are doing PhD in social science related subjects than chances is that you will struggle for a while before settling down ... Not advisable if you intend to start a family. Even if you got the job you will be job hopping for at least a decade before you settle down at a location.

However, if you are doing PhD in science related subjects your chance of getting a job with pay higher than a secretary is higher, but only if your research falls into the category of demand. Otherwise, you will struggle to find a job that pay you for what you have.

Worst case scenario is that you do a PhD just because you think it will give you a better job prospect. No it does not because unless your research is in high demand you will start from the very bottom again ... you pay will be less than a secretary and definitely less than a bureaucratic manager. The reason is simple that you have not accumulated enough research experience to warrant bureaucrats' pay level. To gain those experience you need to slave yourself as lowly ranking post doc research maggots. Then you need to justify your skills to those peers who think you do not deserve it because you are a smartar*e or being better than them. You go back to the square one trying to understand the nature of things. Too late. The bureaucrats win.

🙄

I feel this is relevant to the subject of PhDs:

[img] [/img]

Pose estimation from an eye to hand position or eye in hand?

I love academia. My PhD was long and hard and isolated and isolating. My post docs hard and interesting, all of which made me much more employable. Not much richer, but I get access to jobs that interest me, I'm not really too bothered by cash. If I could go back I probably would but right now I'm learning lots and dealing with far more politics, ego and nonsense in industry than academia, but that is part of working in a high tech team with several other PhDs and many years experience.

coffeeking - Member

... I'm not really too bothered by cash.

Remain in this position for another 20 years then see if you are still not bothered by cash or wait until you have a family ... you may starve but should your family?

I'm nearing the end of the first year of my PhD and according to this thread I'm in the unusual position of overall really enjoying it.

I've taken a less than usual path into starting my PhD. Rather than doing A-Levels at school I stupidly did a National Diploma, followed by a Higher National Diploma at a local college as I couldn't get into any of the universities I wanted to. I then completed a distance-learning top-up degree as I couldn't afford to leave work and live away from home. This meant that I didn't actually start at a university until 18 months ago when I started my MSc. A piece of my first semester MSc work was accepted into a big conference- attending this conference was basically what encouraged me to apply for a PhD.

I then managed to get an EPSRC funded position based on a proposal I helped write, so I'm working on something I'm really interested in with some great people who I have a lot of respect for and have became close friends. I'm working in the area where CS and Psychology meet (HCI), researching methods using ubiquitous computing to encourage increased walking and cycling and generally I'm really enjoying what I do- I think this is really the best motivation for completing a PhD! If I was just running studies for my supervisor or researching something I wasn't interested in I think I'd be struggling a lot more.

However, even so the PhD is not without its downsides. Right now I'm laying awake on a friends sofa because my stipend and teaching wage doesn't pay enough to allow me to live in London (and pay off my MSc debt). The hours are unusual and long- I've not been home since Sunday, I've been working (running participants) until gone 11 at night whilst trying to write up an end-of year report on basically no sleep. I enjoy TA'ing, teaching and writing lesson content more than I ever thought I would, but this also means I receive hundreds of emails most days, making life very stressful at times. I'm also earning a lot less than almost all of my colleagues who finished the MSc 9 months ago and it's likely that I'll earn less than them for a few years after I graduate (and probably forever if I stay in academia).

Ultimately I'm enjoying it because I'm working on a topical area I feel passionate whilst doing a lot of other research-related things that I enjoy (and a number I don't!). I think most of my colleagues feel similarly most of the time, but it does come with its ups and downs, it's obviously a hard slog and there are a lot of times when we wonder why we're doing it.

For a couple of my colleagues the PhD was really not the right decision and they've ended up leaving and been much happier as a result. I really think you need to think about why you started the PhD in the first place and why you think leaving might be better. I'd really recommend that you speak to your supervisors, peers and other researchers in your department before you make a decision: I'm sure they know you much better than we do. Many of them have probably been in a similar position to you and talking things out will hopefully help you come to the best decision. Maybe inviting your colleagues out for a drink after work might you decide either way?

Sorry for the massive reflective post- this is what the lack of sleep does to me! Now, I'm off to finish transcribing today's interviews...

I have lost count of how many bad patches I have hit during the Ph.D. They come and they go, just like in any job. The end of the first year is hard. It is like Tuesday. You have just had to go through a hard Monday, and Friday seems so far away.

I know is sounds trite, but set your milestones, be they daily, weekly or monthly. Complete those, and things will come together. It is also very important to not let it take over your life. Tasks will fill whatever time you give to them.

There is no need to be isolated when doing a Ph.D: meet your supervisor a little and often, even if they just tell you that you are on the right track; present at conferences; organise a workshop for the Ph.D community in your department or school. Research is collaborative.

I did a PhD about 20 years ago now and had very similar first year feelings and so did a fair few of the people in our research group.

Several quit when things got tough, when they got no results, when the subject became boring, when they just got fed up with it.

I had several periods of being down the pub and riding my bike. I also had periods of doing all nighters as I was getting somewhere.

Looking back a PhD teaches you how to get through these times, how to push on and make some progress when it's easier to run away - writing it all up is the worst part.

You need support - talk to your supervisor, take a sideways look, do something related that you can use in an introductory chapter - it will make a refreshing change from the exact stuff you're working on but still add something so it's not a waste of time

or

ride your bike every day for a week, 3 years is a heck of a long time so a week is nothing but if you want a doctorate you have to get over this.
For me not quitting was one of the better decisions I've made.

@DaveRambo - that's a good post, totally agree.

I probably had more "down-time" than most - both in terms of being down about stuff and in terms of taking time off. But it worked out in the end, and I don't regret having taken those moments of relief out of what could be a very stressful period of your life.

It's important to take plenty of time out of study when you've gone 'down the hole' (as image above), as it makes you more productive when you're on a roll. Just remember to enjoy your time off without guilt! I suffered terribly with an inability to separate work and life, though in the end it was exercise - riding and running - that made the difference productive for me.

Outcomes? Did you speak to your supervisor?

Didn't expect to see this up at the top again, but as it is I'll give an update.

I had a word with my supervisor, and the meeting was very positive. After some thought I've decided to carry on with it.

I think I'd forgotten why I got myself into this in the first place. IA, your replies particularly helped to remind me of this, so thanks.

Just remember to enjoy your time off without guilt!

Two days riding planned this weekend and I will not be thinking about work!