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@Flaperon ok, fair point but if the person doing 500 yards in the car doesn't do a lot of long journeys as well their net contribution isn't as much as someone doing many miles efficiently, pollution per mile is bad, total pollution is not so high. Not defending eejits doing 500 yard car journeys by the way, may their exhausts pipes rot prematurely.
@molgrips ok the tax is regressive (not quite as regressive as TJ wanting to charge people who cant afford off street parking for parking on the road).
Maybe Fuel duty is not the perfect tax but it's pretty good, not electronics needed (which can be over ridden and cost), no real collection costs and it's extremely hard to avoid, more so now red diesel is less available.
I really can't see how there will an equivalent for electric vehicles with some form of electronic box, I don't see domestic charge points being that sophisticated.
Electric vehicles won’t be on cheap electricity for long. I’ve been told by a charge point manufacturer that there is hard coded in a meter so that you can be charged more per kw/h for charging your ev than general household usage.
They can literally set it to what they like at anytime they please, it’s no different a fuel pump in that sense.
Drac I think the point is they are (possibly) proposing charging more for electrons pumped into a car from your house, versus your domestic use as a way of collecting tax revenue.
I saw someone putting £10 of petrol in on pump 3. I thought where are they going, pump 4?
I saw that joke on twitter too.
Drac I think the point is they are (possibly) proposing charging more for electrons pumped into a car from your house, versus your domestic use as a way of collecting tax revenue.
Maybe but it just sounds like one of those stories where someone has claimed something and as they work for a company it must be true.
I saw someone putting £10 of petrol in on pump 3. I thought where are they going, pump 4?
I heard it on the radio.
"I only put £20 in each time so i does not affect me"
Maybe but it just sounds like one of those stories where someone has claimed something and as they work for a company it must be true.
As I said above in my probably TLDR post above:
Commercial charge points will charge what they want and have lot more costs to cover compared to a home charge point.
Domestic charge points don't send you an electricity bill, meters do, so unless there is some hidden protocol that allows a domestic charge point to talk to your SMART meter there is no way for the government to know what you were using the electricity for. If there is I'd have expected it to have been big news.
Many SMART meters can't even communicate with your provider or the little display they come with so the idea they can communicate with a myriad of different chargers feels a bit far fetched.
Smart meters can determine the appliance used by consumption characteristics. Eg 3kw over 2 minutes will be a kettle etc etc...
I'd like to see a smart meter tell the difference between my car plugged into the domestic socket where it draws 9A and a 9A fan heater. It's not going to happen, and if it does I'll just charge direct from my PV. 🙂 Edit: and buy a power wall. Frankly trying to specifically tax the electricity used to charge cars at home is counter productive because it will result in people finding solutions worse for the grid than night charging on a cheap tarrif.
To be fair it doesn't need to
Car totts up all it's miles .
Ever year it's recorded at inspection.
X - y = bill.
Er… and how does that account from charging at multiple points?
and if it does I’ll just charge direct from my PV. 🙂
They'll start dipping your battery for yellow electricity
Car totts up all it’s miles .
Ever year it’s recorded at inspection.
You know how many German cars are "clocked"?
These ideas fail at the first hurdle, the government that applies them losing the next election. "Touche pas à ma bagnole" - don't touch my car, is one of the things politicians ignore at their peril.
More seriously, road charging using ANPR/telematics.
One of the major issues with trying to solve the transport issues edukator.
ANPR, no chance, the cost of that would be immense and ANPR is hardly foolproof. Plus the attrition rate of vandalised cameras would be immense, a ladder and a spray can is all you need.
Macron proved it the hard way, TJ. The start of the gilets jaunes was a few cents on diesel and the previous gouvernement's attempt to tax trucks using cameras on gantries resulted in truckers bringing traffic to a halt - they were never even used but I'm sure you're right about them being vandalised if they ever had been turned on, stumpyjon.
Ebike, ebike, ebike!
Fine, if I could afford one - however, it would take me at least an hour to get to work, requiring me to leave home before 5.30 am, and I’d be getting home around 7.30 in the evening, or later, after a 12-hour working day. The public transport available would take longer, as there’s no direct links available, and the cost would be prohibitive.
One advantage now, is that while I’m working longer days, my shift patterns mean I’ll actually be working fourteen-fifteen days fewer each month, which means I’ll actually be driving 420 miles less a month, which means significantly less fuel used, saving me quite a lot of money. Plus I’ll be able to spend more time during the summer chilling out in the garden.
If my calculations are correct, I’ll be driving 2100 miles less a year, which could save me over £350 just in fuel; a win all round, really.
ANPR, no chance, the cost of that would be immense and ANPR is hardly foolproof. Plus the attrition rate of vandalised cameras would be immense, a ladder and a spray can is all you need.
They said that about speed cameras. There's plenty of cameras used already. Congestion charge, bus lanes, smart motorways, tunnels etc.
Telematics are a thing in new vehicles. All our new vans have it, although it's not used by our company.
Just been working out my commuting costs.
It's a 60 mile round trip so it's about £1900 a year in fuel alone.
I can use a bus and cycle which is only viable with a £1200 a year annual pass, otherwise driving is cheaper.
Obviously the dearer the fuel the more I'd save but it's a big commitment to make, especially having to mess about with catching the bus for a 5am start and late night finishes.
It's a tough choice to make.
Mate of mines lives in a town. Born and bred there.
Police stationed him in the next town.
He looked at using public transport for a day shift.
Leave at 19:00 the night before get the bus to town . Have a kip somewhere .... Do his shift. Get home off the bus at 18:30 see his kids eat some tea and head back out to travel for the next shift at 19:00.
We are only talking 15 miles here.
You know how many German cars are “clocked”?
No .... But then as I don't live in Germany is not my business to care.
I do find it funny when folk have no answer to points raised so make irrelevant personal attacks in stead
Since that was aimed at me, I’ll say that was not a personal attack against you in the slightest. I don’t have the slightest issue with you owning a few flats. Nor tbh do I particularly care that much about whether folks do or don’t drive their cars to work
All I did was express an opinion, I stand by it. I’m sure you don’t agree with it, frankly I don’t care if you do or not. And more importantly I’m not in any way remotely interested in arguing with you about it.
Just don’t start making out I’m making some personal attack on you please
Norway has telematics now that charge you for entering towns, and for paying for parking. You can stay outside the system if you want, but in reality noone does because you really pay for it if you drive anywhere regularly. I believe we'll be metered for amount of driving pretty soon, but I don't recall the planned date.
I was not the only person to see it as that and it was obvious. You are also wrong because1) I am not removing a property from housing stock and 2) I let it for significantly less than a mortgage on the property would be
Spin it how you like tj, but don’t complain when people use their car to commute because they can’t afford to live local, when you are part of the problem
Then Kelvin posted
Don’t rise to it TJ, they are baiting you into an irrelevant discussion
Now if I were holiday letting or letting it at more than mortgage price you would have a poion
To reiterate..
And more importantly I’m not in any way remotely interested in arguing with you about it.
Just been working out my commuting costs.
It’s a 60 mile round trip so it’s about £1900 a year in fuel alone.
Bloody hell!
Roughly worked out my wife’s commute of 44 mile a day is about £790 a year. A big jump from this last few months and huge to previously as it was free.
Of corse I know need to equate my commutes but at least I can claim that back.
Roughly worked out my wife’s commute of 44 mile a day is about £790 a year.
You must get fantastic mpg from the car. Either that or my maths is terrible!
It’s an EV sorry should have been clear.
Ah, makes a bit more sense then!
Price of a barrel of oil back under $100.00, so either traders think that other sources are available, or going to be available soon, they don't care about Russian suply, or they think war will be over sooner rather than later.
Do we think it'll take the forecourts a bit longer than they did to raise prices, before they lower them again?
Absolutely! They rise the price the second they can, regardless of how much less they paid for what's already in their tanks and they leave it high for as long as they can get away with. I remember an interview years ago during the "tanker blockade crisis" (maybe 2001/2?) and a petroleum industry representative said that petrol at any particular petrol station is determined purely based on competition and "what the market will bear". If they can get away with it, they do. Petrol companies are no more interested in giving us a good price than newspapers are interested in giving us unbiased "news".
If they can get away with it, they do. Petrol companies are no more interested in giving us a good price than newspapers are interested in giving us unbiased “news”.
see also any company that trades commercially in our capitalist society. The company I work for, the company you work for. They all do it.
Supply. Demand.
Unless the government steps in and 'demands' a reduction in fuel price, the fuel companies will charge what they feel the market can bare. It's simple (if unfortunate for the bulk of us) economics.
theres a bizzarre phenomenon at play with fuel prices, that also coincidently occurs with bike suspension travel.
petrol goes from 1.35 to 1.70. "OMG petrol has doubled"
trail bike is 130 travel "cant ride that on these hard trails, need a 160mm enduro bike, its like twice as good".
The "1" seems to be ignored, especially when verbally its "one - thirty"
Its been 1 pound something since before I started driving. MTBs have had 100mm minimum (or zero) travel since I started riding. Its easy to mentally ignore that first digit.
But the man maths that comes from doing so can lead to issues.
Is there a tracker anywhere that shows the price of oil compared to the price of fuel?
Things could get a lot worse yet...
I can use a bus and cycle which is only viable with a £1200 a year annual pass, otherwise driving is cheaper.
The business park where I work only managed to develop the land because of a number, one of the things they had to do, was make it a 'sustainable transport hub' place as its out of town,but not exactly in the middle of nowhere.
They did a survey recently where you compared your car commute to available bus journeys to highlight the bus being cheaper, using season tickets. There were no cheaper journeys. Even with a 2 litre diesel car, driving 4.5 miles to, and 4.5 miles home, the car was cheaper. Nuts. Just as well I cycle when I'm in the office.
I think you guys up there ^ have just discovered what is known in economics as prices being 'sticky downwards'
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sticky-down.asp
Economist - someone who sees something working in practice and wonders if it can be made to work in theory.
I drove 220 miles today, London-Gloucester-London. With 320 indicated in the tank I decided to use Eco mode and got home with 132 range indicated.
Anyway, en route I saw a lot of garages “no diesel”. I’m guessing people have filled up as quick as possible as the prices shoot up.
Oh that's useful, just as I'm driving to North Wales this weekend
You may not realise this but petrol companies have been pissing in your eyes since Esso managed to get rid of loads of competition in the 90's.
Oh that’s useful, just as I’m driving to North Wales this weekend
Likewise. Grrr.
Things could get a lot worse yet…
The way fuel costs are going and with reading articles like that I'm ordering my season ticket tomorrow.
What's the worst that can happen? I'll end up cycling more for the next year or so which isn't all bad.
Things could get a lot worse yet…
(Lots of 'if' and 'could' in that linked article)
And yet the price of crude has dropped again today after starting to drop on Friday.
My betting is on a gradual drop back to £1.40's by July.
It's very interesting watching prices change...
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil
We don't trade in wti
If your tracking uk prices you need Platts
Its been 1 pound something since before I started driving.
Oh god I feel old. I remember petrol at 25p a gallon!
Oh god I feel old. I remember petrol at 25p a gallon!
Yup, so do I when first started driving - 5 shillings.... 4 gallons for £1.
You could buy a decent second hand car for a tenner.
And a portion of chips for 6d.
Proper greasy limp chips too, none of your french fries bollocks.
Oh god I feel old. I remember petrol at 25p a gallon!
You must be really old! I remember the fuss when it went up to 70p a gallon (~15p / litre for younger readers.)
A few years later, I also remember the shame and embarrassment of being unable to pay for the 5 gallons (~22 litres) of 4* that the petrol pump attendant had just dispensed into my car as it came to more than the fiver that I had in my pocket.
When I was about 10 we lived it in the drugs and I drove out very old Landover around the fields next to the house.
Dad used to take me to the garage to get £1 worth of 4 star which would fill a can that I still have.
Probably holds about 10 litres!
(Back in the day when green shield stamps were around and you got free glasses with X gallons of petrol!)
You know what happened to Green Shield stamps, right? Via a catalogue, now Argos.
You were lucky....
(Back in the day when green shield stamps were around and you got free glasses with X gallons of petrol!)
Oh god now I feel old, I remember going out in the car with my dad and getting the greenfield stamps to get some “free” glasses or other such quality gear. I’d forgotten greenfield stamps became Argos.
Oh god I feel old. I remember petrol at 25p a gallon!
Flippin' heck TJ and tillydog, how old are you? It was 4s (20p) a gallon in 1900 and rose to 6s (30p) in 1956
Old enough perhaps that my memory is failing? I was sure I remembered 25p a gallon but maybe not!
Edit - I just looked it up - pre oil shock in 73 ish petrol was in the low 30p a gallon average so discounted could have been 25P
Rapidly went up in the early / mid 70s
I am old enough to remember the 60s - just 🙂
I suppose I should add, for the sake of balance 🙂 that the price of a gallon of petrol has traditionally been all over the place. It dropped to 2s (10p) before WW1 and doubled during that war. During WW2 it didn't vary so much due to rationing and 1956 (6s) was the Suez Crisis.
Ironically the Russians drove the price down after WW2 by selling at a loss because they were desperate for proper money, which led to OPEC being formed in 1960 to protect prices for those countries.
A gallon stayed around 5s until the early-70s when there was war in the middle-east and OPEC raised prices to countries supporting Israel. I assume that the Russians were by now selling at a realistic price because I remember my dad muttering about 50p per gallon in the mid-70s and I don't think that it's ever really reduced in price since then
Ignoring conflict, taxes don't help the picture much
I am old enough to remember the 60s – just 🙂
“If you remember the ’60s, you really weren’t there.” Charlie Fleischer 1982
You know what happened to Green Shield stamps, right? Via a catalogue, now Argos.
Well I never knew that!
But now you've said that it's obvious 🤦🏻♂️
Citizen K is IMHO worth watching.
The former richest man in Russia explains how Yeltsin and later Putin held power and how the oligarchs became rich enough to become oligarchs.
Free on Prime
Flippin’ heck TJ and tillydog, how old are you?
Mid 50's. The 70p a gallon thing was about 1975 when I was in school - roughly the same time that Bohemian Rhapsody was on Top Of The Pops (which I also remember).
Be careful with comparisons pre 1970: The price changed because of decimalisation, so what was 80d / gallon @ 240 pennies in a £ became about 33p / gallon @ 100 pennies in a £.[*]
*I also have a dim memory of my 'savings' (a pile of old pennies and ha'pennies) being taken to be converted to 'new money', and what used to be several chunky stacks of coins turned into a few pieces of shrapnel 🙁
There's a bloke who claims to have kept a record of prices in his area since 1983 (he must be a riot at parties) His chart makes for interesting reading
Well, since you ask, the really interesting thing about petrol prices..
what used to be several chunky stacks of coins turned into a few pieces of shrapnel
That sounds remarkably similar to bringing up 3 girls!!
Our company only pays 11p/mile which I thought was below the statutory minimum but hey.
The car is an old diesel Honda CRV. On one hand I feel guilty driving around in a relatively dirty, inefficient SUV, but on the other hand it's free and feels more wasteful binning it rather than keeping it running. Either way at 40mpg or 8.8mplitre, and £1.70(?) a litre now, it costs effectively 19p/mile in fuel.
I was making a loss on pretty much any work related trip anyway but now it will be taking the piss a bit, anyone successfully got their employer to increase the pence per mile? Or is that just a silly question?
Do you get any other car related expenses? Like a car allowance? (clearly no company ccar in your case if you have an old SUV)
Gov's recommended is 45ppm, but only if you get no other help. 11p seems like someone's guess at a fuel only cost.
At her previous job, girlfirend got company car + 12ppm for work related travel.
If you dont get the 45p, you can claim the difference between your 11 and 45 and get it as a tax free expense. which isnt all of it, but it helps.
Our company only pays 11p/mile which I thought was below the statutory minimum but hey.
It's not a statutory minimum. If your company pays you below the 40p then you can claim back the tax on the rest or something like that.
anyone successfully got their employer to increase the pence per mile? Or is that just a silly question?
You've got perfectly decent grounds. You shouldn't be out of pocket on work trips. Our company pays less than the 40p if you get the car allowance, which I do - the expenses is for fuel and the allowance is for the car itself. The amount per mile would vary depending on fuel prices slightly, so I'm assuming it's gone up now.
I was making a loss on pretty much any work related trip anyway but now it will be taking the piss a bit, anyone successfully got their employer to increase the pence per mile? Or is that just a silly question?
You can claim the balance up to the HMRC limit of 40p/mile on a tax return, or something. Don't ask me, I just work there.
I remember being young enough to be made to watch Val Doonican on a Saturday night and him talking about petrol reaching an incredible £1 a gallon. To be fair, that would have been a night when we had electricity and weren't reading by candlelight.
its been 45p for a few years now
Oh and 47.9p/l is the lowest I can specifically remember paying for petrol. In a 1.0 Fiesta that would manage 35mpg. My big fast luxury estate does significantly better than that.
In a 1.0 Fiesta that would manage 35mpg. My big fast luxury estate does significantly better than that.
I'm sure there is a interesting but difficult comparison to be done, on fuel cost per mile compared to income, once the improvement in car economy is taken into account.
Just like on the house price/mortgatge/interest rate thread from a few weeks back, there is an amount that the average person is willing and able to pay and it seems that everything else magically arranges itself to accomodate this.
Thanks folks, yeah I get a car allowance so don't expect the 45p/mile rate.
Old company was 23p/mile WITH car allowance, which seems generous now!
Will look in to tax back. Have just joined the company and the salary/benefits etc. otherwise are good, so don't fancy rocking the boat early on for travel, will maybe just sting them for more train journeys instead and claim it's so I can work on the train (if most work trips weren't to desolate industrial estates with no train station that is... 🙄)
if most work trips weren’t to desolate industrial estates with no train station that is
Folding bike?
Just speaking to some colleagues. Diesel prices (Euro) in Italy is 2.30; Portugal 2.10; Estonia 2.00
So we still got it low
Not when you factor i the exchange rate. €2.30 is £1.94 and €2 is 1.69 so pretty comparable to here.
There’s a bloke who claims to have kept a record of prices in his area since 1983 (he must be a riot at parties) His chart makes for interesting reading
Well, since you ask, the really interesting thing about petrol prices..
That is actually quite interesting - suggests that, adjusted for inflation, petrol is possibly still cheaper than it was around 2011-2013. (That's with an RPI of 8.2% and petrol at £1.70. It would need to get to about £1.80 to equal prices during those years)
Somewhat smug I'm riding 13 miles each way along the canal in an hour, when in the office two days a week. Saving me £7 a day. Following a commuting accident 6 years ago, I was back to driving 5 days a week - costly. Since the pandemic I've decided I'll ride the days in the office, but the 'negotiation' with the boss (MrsF) was it's along the canal.
No traffic and travel time is always within 5 minutes of the hour, depending upon weather.
We do, however, go to Wales most weekends - 150 mile round trip, so I'm driving extra economically.
That’s with an RPI of 8.2%
The RPI includes petrol prices though no? So they aren't independent.
The RPI includes petrol prices though no? So they aren’t independent.
Yeah it is a bit circular! But still interesting as a broad indicator, as it'll apply fairly equally to all years. I think?!