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Which one of your lot started that then!!
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=231563
Signed it. What a great idea. You could easily get 10,000 signatures for this from Scotland.
Signed.
The map is quite funny at present but lacks some credibility as an indication of English desire on the matter 😂
Seems the easiest solution to a lot of problems.
What if England doesn't want independence?
Any Scots signing that in the hope that England does want independence will have truly made a complete c**t of it.
Cart?
The map is brilliant though
How about a certain king that tried to hold back the tide? It won't even let me type his name in though.
The map is actually English people living in Scotland voting.
Honestly... 🙂
(That's the political version of honesty of course)
The map is quite funny at present but lacks some credibility as an indication of English desire on the matter
What if England doesn’t want independence?
Any Scots signing that in the hope that England does want independence will have truly made a complete c**t of it.
Considering the amount of English that saw fit to ask for a vote on Scottish independence I'm not sure this is any different. Mind you I'd treat it just as seriously.
Is this the solution to Brexit?
What about Wales?
What is it about Scottish nationalist who find any opportunity to complain about England being confused with the UK (justifiably in many cases) then go on to ignore the Welsh position?
Considering the amount of English that saw fit to ask for a vote on Scottish independence I’m not sure this is any different. Mind you I’d treat it just as seriously.
I think the number are smaller than you think. Ye doth readeth the Daily Mail too much.
Also, people living in England didn't get a say as should be the case.
The campaign would be farcical. Previous Indy supporter telling Scots that we are loaded with resources and wealth beyond our wildest dreams, with a surplus of oil which a greedy Westmonster wants to bleed dry, would now be telling our English neighbours that Scotland has nothing to offer the UK but type 2 diabetes, heart disease and dwindling oil supplies.
It's at heart all about Scots wanting independence regardless of what this petition says. I think that decision should be entrusted to those residing in Scotland. Any Scots, feel free to be two faced and shoot me down in flames if you like.
I shouldn't really give the petition any credence as it would have been created by a fool and signed by the hard of thinking.
What about Wales?
What is it about Scottish nationalist who find any opportunity to complain about England being confused with the UK (justifiably in many cases) then go on to ignore the Welsh position?
Dissonance, Brexit may be a game changer in any future UK relationships. In recent months I have found myself feeling more concerned with the goings on in NI, partly because of the border situation, but also due to a closer parity with how Scotland and NI voted in 2016. It may not be the correct thing to think, however Wales concerns have fallen down my pecking order of considerations as a result.
What about Wales?
What is it about Scottish nationalist who find any opportunity to complain about England being confused with the UK (justifiably in many cases) then go on to ignore the Welsh position?
I'm pretty sure the welsh can speak for themselves. Doesn't really have anything to do with me.
ps the welsh position was for brexit btw.
I shouldn’t really give the petition any credence as it would have been created by a fool and signed by the hard of thinking.
I suspect you are thinking too hard about a joke. chill dude! 😆
Got my post edited after seosamh, but this^ (2 posts up.) Stop adding so quickly.
I think there is a reasonably sized minority that think this is a viable option seosamh.
Brexit may be a game changer in any future UK relationships.
I agree it is just I find it fascinating that a certain kind of Scottish nationalist goes on about the English voting for Brexit whilst ignoring the Welsh did the same and also complaining about how not enough attention is paid to them. I would tend to consider them a tad hypocritical.
For NI it is interesting since the impact of the DUP idiots hasnt always been acknowledged. Due to the specific NI laws around protecting who provided funding for what political position (on the not unreasonable grounds that in NI rather than just arsey headlines you might end up with a car bomb) the DUP funnelled about half a million of quids worth of adverts for brexit. If it was spent in NI then fine but since it wasnt where did that cash come from?
I agree it is just I find it fascinating that a certain kind of Scottish nationalist goes on about the English voting for Brexit whilst ignoring the Welsh did the same and also complaining about how not enough attention is paid to them. I would tend to consider them a tad hypocritical.
Perhaps you should keep the head below the parapet and let England take the hit for Brexit dissonance, however since you are so keen, give us the Welsh voice as to why Wales AND England have been instrumental in the farce we now find ourselves.
give us the Welsh voice as to why Wales AND England have been instrumental in the farce we now find ourselves.
I am interested in why the Scottish nationalists ignore that it isnt just England to blame.
Personally given the, reasonably privileged position I am in (ignoring the fact the existing government policies are designed to put me at a greater disadvantage than an average tradesperson), I do find it odd how many disadvantaged area of England and Wales voted out. I know in theory given the balance of money sent to the EU vs that received favours out but that assumes the money saved from the EU, if it exists, will be spent on the regions as opposed to the normal strategy of ignoring them.
However that doesnt explain why the Scottish nationalist ignore the Welsh. Personally I think there is a lot of overlap between the Scottish, Welsh and English nationalist in responding to globalisation but it is just reflected in different ways. After all the Scottish can blame the English but who can the English blame (for the Welsh it is odd the English isnt blamed but....)
I know in theory given the balance of money sent to the EU vs that received favours out but that assumes the money saved from the EU, if it exists, will be spent on the regions as opposed to the normal strategy of ignoring them.
IMO a huge over simplification and wrong. If we look at the pounds that head across the English Channel and compare it against the money spent on the projects with an EU flag attached to them in this country then we are massively missing the point of the EU.
I have worked with fellow professionals from across the EU that have made a home here. My wife is a nursing professional in a similar position. I have close family from the EU that live here, only made possible through freedom of movement. Unemployment in the UK is at a so called all time low, despite the apparent level of keen working age Europeans making their home here. Can business truly quantify the benefits of having a free trade market of 300 million individuals on our doorstep. I doubt it.
IMO a huge over simplification and wrong
Yes and no. I agree it misses the overall point of the EU but the sheer lunacy of those who benefited from EU funds and voted out baffles me. There seems to be a dream that if we save that 350 million then it will be spent on them rather than whoever owns the brexit elite.
That said there is a flipside where there is this impression the UK wants something special from the EU and is wrong in acting up. If, say, France didnt perceive the benefits from the EU outweighed the costs does anyone seriously think they wouldnt be wanting out? They have CAP which favours them and the EU parliament having to turn up there. Luxembourg gets a shit load of EU head office work plus being a tax parasite and so on. I dont think there is any country which has said sod it we will lose out for the overall gain of Europe. I would love for a counter example since it would balance my overall negative opinion of humanity.
I would also say unemployment in the UK is a shit measure. Unfortunately governments (not just the UK) have been allowed to play games with what counts as unemployed so much that it is no longer worth the paper it is written on.
dissonance
I am interested in why the Scottish nationalists ignore that it isnt just England to blame.
Very few blame only the english for the referendum result, and they're stupid to- after all, there were brexiteers everywhere, and while it's annoying for my rants that Wales went Leave, they didn't carry the vote- Wales would have had to have voted about 90% remain to overcome the english bloc. So yes, it is down to the english. Execute every Welsh leave voter and it makes no difference to the result
But it's entirely fair to blame this bloody awful government for everything that's happened since, and it was kindly elected by the english on behalf of the whole country. The tories took 20% of seats in Wales, 28.6% in Scotland, so it wasn't either of us, and the DUP represent only a third of votes cast despite their majority of seats so we can't even blame the norn irish for it.
There's nothing wrong with that- it's democracy, England is biggest so it has the most weight. But along with the power comes the responsibility and, yes, the blame.
There’s nothing wrong with that- it’s democracy, England is biggest so it has the most weight. But along with the power comes the responsibility and, yes, the blame.
Only if you're a nationalist*. I'm English and voted remain and lib dem. So I'm less to blame than a Scottish leave voting conservative.
I think (can't be arsed to check) that my constituency voted more remain than scotland. Does that give me some sort of moral superiority?
*Using the word to mean someone for who self and country and interchangeable.
dissonance
...However that doesnt explain why the Scottish nationalist ignore the Welsh. ...
They don't. They believe the Welsh are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves and don't need interference from another country.
That's the whole point of independence - not having another country running your affairs.
it was kindly elected by the english on behalf of the whole country.
all those votes going to the SNP had nothing to do with the election results then?
I think the number are smaller than you think. Ye doth readeth the Daily Mail too much.
I didn't mean to imply it was a significant number, I'm sure they are just as small an idiotic minority as those who are taking this poll seriously.
Also, people living in England didn’t get a say as should be the case.
Why should they? I don't remember getting asked if I wanted a Welsh Assembly and didn't expect to. Mind you, you don't seem so sure yourself:
I think that decision should be entrusted to those residing in Scotland.
The campaign would be farcical. Previous Indy supporter telling Scots that we are loaded with resources and wealth beyond our wildest dreams, with a surplus of oil which a greedy Westmonster wants to bleed dry, would now be telling our English neighbours that Scotland has nothing to offer the UK but type 2 diabetes, heart disease and dwindling oil supplies.
Sounds a lot like the parallel arguments of Indref and Brexit. You couldn't make that up.
ps the welsh position was for brexit btw.
Not really. The position in post industrial deprived areas and poor rural areas was for Brexit. There are simply more of those in Wales and fewer affluent cosmopolitan areas.
Del
all those votes going to the SNP had nothing to do with the election results then?
What votes are those? The SNP got a smaller voter share in 2017 than in the previous election. Unless you mean the fact that there are SNP MPs at all, but since they'd have happily allied with Corbyn to form a government that's a nonissue. Corbyn wasn't so easily tricked into ruling out coalitions as bloody useless Miliband.
Ironically, you're nearly right- but what made the difference here was Scottish Labour's obsession with "beating the SNP"- they encouraged voters into the arms of the Tories and celebrated Tory wins, made only a 3% gain themselves which they celebrated as being a huge success, and ultimately played a big part in putting the tories into power.
But none of that changes the fact that the english voter block overpowers all of the others and once again selected the government. Which as I say, is OK, it's how british democracy is, you can't complain about it while staying in the UK.
How would Scottish independents feel if the areas that want to remain part of the UK decided (through a local referendum) to break free and join rUK? Would they let them?
csb
Member
How would Scottish independents feel if the areas that want to remain part of the UK decided (through a local referendum) to break free and join rUK? Would they let them?
You can't be pro-independence and not support that. But in reality, there's no danger of it.Perhaps border regions might want to go back and forth once things were settled (both ways), which'd be interesting. People constantly shit-stir over shetland but there's no real desire for it there.
Signed it.
Then the Celtic fringe will realise their long held ambition of being free of the English Yoke.
See where it gets them without English money.
😂😂😂
IF I sign & IF it came about, would I be able to fly The St George cross above my house without being a racist?
Well I'd say one thing with some certainty, history will look back at this time of petty squabbles and bitterness with some disdain.
Looking back at a period where cooperation and being united has enriched so many the desire to break it all up will baffle many.
Looking back as a "citizen of the world" where nationality is something left to sport this time in history will leave many wondering just what it was they were fighting over.
molgrips
Subscriber
ps the welsh position was for brexit btw.Not really. The position in post industrial deprived areas and poor rural areas was for Brexit. There are simply more of those in Wales and fewer affluent cosmopolitan areas.
😆
How about a certain king that tried to hold back the tide? It won’t even let me type his name in though.
Knut (Canute)? He was demonstrating that as king his powers were limited to the people he ruled, over God’s creations like the sea his powers were ineffectual.
esselgruntfuttock
IF I sign & IF it came about, would I be able to fly The St George cross above my house without being a racist?
What is to stop you doing that right now? Don't let racists take over your flag. Fly it with pride.
Knut (Canute)?
Yes. I tried to write the short version starting with a c. Singletrack did not like it.
Knut (Canute)? He was demonstrating that as king his powers were limited to the people he ruled, over God’s creations like the sea his powers were ineffectual.
Did he do it on a Tuesday?
What is to stop you doing that right now?
nothing except that fact that anyone flying a flag from their house should be taken out and shot! 😆
csb
How would Scottish independents feel if the areas that want to remain part of the UK decided (through a local referendum) to break free and join rUK? Would they let them?
It would make sense to allow that to occur. I understand that a poll in Berwick had a substantial majority for joining an independent Scotland.
However Scotland and England are joined by an Act of Union, and the dissolution of that agreement would separate them again, so any modifications would have to come after that. Scotland is not a possession of England.
Shot? Even the LGBT+ers with their rainbow flags? Bit harsh.
What is to stop you doing that right now? Don’t let racists take over your flag. Fly it with pride.
Well a lot of Scots fly the Saltire, & quite a few Welsh people fly theirs but as soon as you stick a St Georges flag up your'e a racist. (on this here STW anyway)
esselgruntfuttock
Well a lot of Scots fly the Saltire, & quite a few Welsh people fly theirs but as soon as you stick a St Georges flag up your’e a racist. (on this here STW anyway)
Claim it back. Fly your flag. It's the flag of a great country.
I’d like To see independence for the South East of England, specifically.
I reckon the rest of us would bump along just fine without them
We could all chip in and just build a big Trump style wall around the Home Counties
I live in one of the English remain hotspots so I'm interested in this seemingly arbitrary definition of administrative areas. Can we join Scotland if you do become an independent nation please?
However Scotland and England are joined by an Act of Union, and the dissolution of that agreement would separate them again, so any modifications would have to come after that. Scotland is not a possession of England.
the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain
Doesn't really work that way, there is only one kingdom now, there aren't 2.
If Scotland goes independent, we are creating a new entity, not reverting to an old kingdom. You may shove your old kingdom (and the current one) up yer arse! 😆 😉
and ps, of course england doesn't own scotland, you seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of a union there.
seosamh77
Doesn’t really work that way, there is only one kingdom now, there aren’t 2...
It is the Union of the Parliaments that would be dissolved, not the Kingdoms. The Queen could remain Queen of Scots as she currently is - unless we decide to depose her, as is our right under Scots law. Or we could leave things as they lie, and simply not accept her successor.
The Treaty of Union is an international treaty between 2 countries, England and Scotland.
The Acts of Union are legislation within those parliaments to enact the terms of the Treaty. A past government cannot bind a future government. Either of those parliaments could dissolve the Treaty, as indeed happens to plenty of international treaties.
Reputedly this is why Margaret Thatcher said all Scotland had to do was to withdraw its MPs from Parliament and declare independence.
of course england doesn’t own scotland, you seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of a union there.
Plenty English MPs and worthies think it is. I have never regarded Scotland as being part of England, but you knew that anyway.
More to the point, have you voted for English Independence yet? 🙂
My argument remains the same, you can't dissolve the uk parliament, that will remain as is, you also can't technically just use the Scottish parliament without some agreement as to how to move forward, as technically that is a uk parliament. Lets not forget the whole body of intermingled law, scots and uk, you can't just dissolve, you need to base a new parliament on some legal basis.
I'd think if the EU issue has told us anything, is that it wouldn't be simple.
Whoop Whoop
It's up to 613 now!! Not getting any traction south of the border though
I think the bottom line is, Scotland knows it'd be a terrible idea to declare UDI, and the UK knows it'd be a terrible idea to refuse Scotland the means to go independent without having to declare UDI.
Frankly there are higher powers and rights than those conferred or restricted by parliaments and the right to self rule is one, in enough people's eyes that refusing a genuine independence movement tends to lead to a total shitshow.
I’d like To see independence for the South East of England, specifically.
I reckon the rest of us would bump along just fine without them
Except that London would vote to be in the EU whilst the bleak Northern counties would have left.
seosamh77
...Lets not forget the whole body of intermingled law, scots and uk, you can’t just dissolve, you need to base a new parliament on some legal basis.
If the citizens of a country possess personal sovereignty, the state gets its legality from them, not the other way round. In Scotland the people are sovereign (Scots law is different to English law).
Iceland provided one example when the sovereign citizens massed and dismissed the government.
That would be a bit more difficult in Scotland, but one way would simply be for the Scottish govt to call an election with the policy of declaring independence. The Claim of Right gives us the ability to do just that, we do not need permission. It would not surprise me to see a Scottish election announced in a few weeks if a GE isn't called.
I'm not sure what mechanism could be used for an English declaration of independence. Possibly if enough candidates got elected on an independence platform they could simply declare, but I think in England it is the parliament that is sovereign, not the citizens (however the UN Declaration of Human Rights may counter that).
The Claim of Right gives us the ability to do just that, we do not need permission.
this is utter fantasy, but you crack on.
and how do you expect udi to work with 20% support?
Epicyclo: start a petition!
seosamh77
this is utter fantasy, but you crack on.
and how do you expect udi to work with 20% support?
I realise the concept of democracy is difficult for you. However this will all be a moot point in a few weeks, so let's wait and see.
In the meantime...
duckman
Epicyclo: start a petition!
No need, there's another petition for English independence on the go
It's beginning to look like all this is just a Scottish obsession there from some of the comments.
Suprise 🙄
Epicyclo, you're not quite right on Scottish laws and sovereignty. Laws in devolved policy areas are distinct, but not where policy is reserved.
However this will all be a moot point in a few weeks, so let’s wait and see.
how so? what's happening in a few weeks?
but one way would simply be for the Scottish govt to call an election with the policy of declaring independence
since i'm the one struggling with democracy, explain how you think that(UDI) will be successful with 20% support?
Your UDI obsession would be the easiest thing in the world to discredit for all the other parties.
Plus further explain how it'll work after the british government close down the scottish institutions and take over everything?
seosamh77
Your UDI obsession...
There is a huge difference between dissolving a Treaty and a UDI.
But let's keep this about English Independence. There doesn't seem to be many signing the petitions.
I'm honestly beginning to think you are just thick tbh. Do you honestly believe 17th century scotland is an entity that still exists and has legal authority?
You also seem to view the union as a partnership between 2 nations, that's not what happened. It wasn't a wedding, it was 2 nations that became 1.
seosamh77
You also seem to view the union as a partnership between 2 nations, that’s not what happened.It wasn’t a wedding, it was 2 nations that became 1.
That's not what the UK says in its description of itself in the UN, ie two countries, a principality, and a province etc.
But don't worry about that, we'll get it sorted real soon.
I suggest you keep your powder dry for the forthcoming new thread on Scottish Independence.
I’m honestly beginning to think you are just thick tbh. Do you honestly believe 17th century scotland is an entity that still exists and has legal authority?
Nah, just a Scot who thinks people living in Scotland can do a better job of running their own country than our next door neighbour does.
I suggest you keep your powder dry for the forthcoming new thread on Scottish Independence.
Sturgeon going to do a Puigdemont, declare independence then runaway?
I’m hazarding a guess it’ll be like all the other times I’ve heard proclamations of big things about to happen that change all.