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Hello everyone,
I need some advice.
My father in law is 85, very poor hearing, and is becoming more confused and forgetful (possibly dementia but we’ve not had it diagnosed). He also has difficulty walking, needing two sticks and has difficulty getting out of a chair.
He still drives.
My mother in law doesn’t drive, due to poor eyesight.
They are both opposed to/ live in fear of loosing his driving license. There aren’t many facilities in their part of town and as their road isn’t tarmac so few taxi/mobility buses go down.
Weirdly he past his fitness to drive, but that was 8 months ago.
My wife and I plus my brother in law are both worried and think the need to give up, but they can’t be persuaded.
How do I persuade them, or do I have to go behind there back (if that is possible). I’d feel crap going behind their backs, but it is better than him getting someone killed.
What have others done in similar circumstances?
One outside thing is the DVLA hasn’t sent a renewed photo license, only have 4 months left on section 88.
My dad is 86 and bat sh1t crazy, recenty almost killed himself by doing elecrical work while it was still live, the heart consultant at the hospital said he should be dead, i just let him get on with it, never took my advice for anything else.
As bad as your choice may feel now, it will be worse if/when there is an accident.
We didn't want to stop my grandad from driving and he had an accident when a white van man drove like a white van man and my grandad couldn't work it out / react fast enough.
He was shocked, my mother suffered chest injuries. Then it got worse when the lazy police officer applied a fat dose of ageism and proportioned blame against pops despite the van jockey being on the wrong side of the road.
He felt absolutely awful about the whole thing, as did we for not grasping the nettle and helping him through the choice to stop driving.
Killing himself through doing things he shouldn't is one thing. Killing someone else is quite another.
To the OP - is really hard and I can understand your parents fear however it sounds like it's getting to the point that it's genuinely dangerous.
Perhaps the best starting point is your father's GP? If you can get hold of them at the moment of course.
Is there any help you (or other relatives / friends) can offer to be able to suggest an alternate plan to him driving that doesn't involve them feeling housebound?
In my experience - which I accept is limited to about half a dozen of the GP’s that work in my area - they usually hide behind the ‘patient-doctor relationship’ and, beyond advising unsafe drivers to think about whether they should stop, fail to do anything further about drivers who they know are driving about pissed, blind or improperly medicated. How their refusal to report them to the police or DVLA is ethical is beyond me. I don’t know if this is normal practice UK wide.
He passed his fitness to drive.
an alternate plan to him driving that doesn’t involve them feeling housebound?
Any plan can be multi-modal.
Including (not limited to):
- mobility scooter/s?
- public transport?
- community buses/lifts
- taxis?
- coach trips/daytrips?
- walking/walking-aids/physio/some level of rehab?
Etc
There's no requirment to be housebound just because you don't drive. I didn't drive until my late mid-30s, was most always out and about prior to passing test. Hated being stuck in. In fact I probably spend more time indoors and sedentary of an evening since I began driving 😎
never took my advice for anything else
That's familiar.
My mate Callum was really worried about his mum who refused to stop driving despite suffering from dementia
She had the archetypal pensioners car: a Rover 25. Every time he went round there would be another fresh scuff on it. The question of whether she’d hit another car, then just driven off, was met with the reply “well everyone does that”
No, mum they really don’t
In the end he went round to her Ouse early one morning, let himself in like a Salford car thief, nicked the keys and drove it home
When she asked him where her cat was, he replied “what car? You sold it months ago, mum”
I know you shouldn’t laugh, but…
He passed his fitness to drive.
8 months ago
My father was well beyond the 'should stop' stage. He the had a fainting episode which gave me an opportunity to collude with his GP who told him he shouldn't drive 'until we get to the bottom of this'.
Hide behind the ‘Patient-Doctor relationship’, I think you might be a bit ahead of yourself.
8 months ago. And?
He passed his fitness to drive.
8 months ago and has seemingly deteriorated since. It is entirely conceivable that someone like the OPs father was just about OK 8 months ago but now really shouldn't be driving. If they are suffering from dementia then their ability to undertake complex tasks like driving could diminish in weeks never mind months.
Plus the fitness to drive test in the first place is hardly onerous and pretty much a self certification exercise in front of a Dr.
Should be much much tougher in my opinion - speaking as someone who was very nearly taken out by someone who just shouldn't have been driving.
That said, I hope when I'm at that stage I decide to give up however I can quite see the reluctance when actually facing the decision and probably won't.
IMO you just can't, they have to make the decision themselves. Very tough subject to broach.
In my experience – which I accept is limited to about half a dozen of the GP’s that work in my area – they usually hide behind the ‘patient-doctor relationship’ and, beyond advising unsafe drivers to think about whether they should stop, fail to do anything further about drivers who they know are driving about pissed, blind or improperly medicated. How their refusal to report them to the police or DVLA is ethical is beyond me.
I've had the same experience with my dad - virtually impossible to get the doctor to sign anyone off as unfit to drive due to the effects of old age. I was told that if one of them at his practice did it once (lots of elderly go there) then it would lead to all the patients switching to a different doctor so they just don't do it.
My dad was getting a liability in that he just didn't recognise hazards whatsoever and his reactions are painfully slow. I did ask him to narrate a drive while I took him to a hospital appointment one day and he missed so much I didn't have the heart to tell him all of it. He still thinks he's fine to drive now but my mum has put the foot down so she drives everywhere they go now, even though her driving isn't exactly great! He will still occasionally drive the car from the house and park it outside the garage at the bottom of the lane (dead-end street so pretty safe) and it's been picking up a few new battle scars. Easy to see when he has done it as it'll be at a crooked angle and the wing mirror won't be folded in as he doesn't know how to do it. He still has his license and is insured on the car (he arranges and pays for it so hard to remove that) so he technically can still drive but he has very little reason to these days and his various ailments means he most likely won't try but the fear of him doing so is still there.
You have my sympathy, it's a hard situation. With my mum, we managed to get friends and neighbours to take her shopping etc. (some paid). After a year of the car only being driven by me when I visited she was OK to sell it.
My neighbour was an alcoholic with loss of cognition. I reported her via Crimestoppers as she did things like drive 100 metres to the corner shop and leave the car stopped in the middle of the road. Nothing happened until she became too ill to live on her own. She'd alienated all her friends and neighbours by then but you could still occasionally see glimpses of the person she used to be.
Good luck, it's hard.
About fifteen years ago, I was driving along the M1 when I saw a red Volkswagen Polo in my rear view mirror. The Polo was in the air at this point, having swerved from the inside lane and ricocheted off the armco barrier between the carriageways, I saw it fly into a field and pulled over to help render assistance.
The driver of the car was in his late eighties and had "suffered a blackout", he was conscious and confused but his wife in the passenger side was in much worse shape.
It's a terribly sad thing to have to do, but in the case of the above bloke I don't believe that no-one knew that the old guy was unfit to drive.
I hope when I’m at that stage I decide to give up
I hope when I'm at that stage the car will drive itself. Sometimes I think that teaching use of the Uber App or the like, might be a godsend.
I told my dad he had to stop. I even got a driving instructor to give an assessment which was terminated after 10 minutes because the instructor was scared. I told him I wasn't worried for him, it was the inquest of a cyclist or motor cyclist I was dreading. I took his keys away and was told for 3 years that it was the worst thing I'd done.
But it was the right thing.
Sort out a local private hire firm, get them to know the place, give them a weekly routine your dad sticks to and it can be ok.
At age 68, I'm self aware enough that I know my reactions are diminishing and I hope that I hand my keys over with pride, not resentment when the time comes.
Been through this with my mother, who did agree not to start driving again after she recovered from a fall which meant she did not drive for a few months.
Best to frame the conversation about
a) The parents ability to react quickly enough to another driver making a mistake.
b) The consequences for someone else if an accident occurs.
Think how they can get the support they need to not get stuck in the house.
Need to do this with my dad really but in a slightly different way.
He's 71 and barely drives at all. I think it just stresses him out (always has done) and now he's go arthritis in his knee (so he can't use the brake properly), but won't go to the doc about it.
He still doesn't to be without his car "just in case". But the more time goes by the worse his driving will be.
He bought a pretty new-ish SUV about 6 years ago, and it's covered < 2000 miles since. In the last 2 years, it's done < 20 miles. The petrol has probably mostly evaporated.
I think it's worth about 8 - 10k at a guess (if it's not knackered through lack of use). Would pay for loads of taxis. He's having none of it though.
We have a few around here who are driving in their 80s and you can see they're not that aware, but how far is your father in law driving, is he doing a mile into town and back at 20mph, or having to do bigger journeys and higher speeds?
It's also what is their 'bad habit' in a car due to age, is it not seeing or thinking clearly, and releasing into moving traffic or the likes, or are they just a little slow, you really need to understand the issue to be removing what they may well feel is their last lifeline to society?
My dad stopped driving at 80, 3-4 years ago, but mum has always done most of the driving.
She's just turned 80, and still drives regular routes that she knows, but doesn't have the confidence to explore anywhere new. Isolating through Covid when I did their shopping didn't help. We've spoken about getting rid of the car later this year, and depending the money on taxis.
Dad renewed his license just so he had some photo ID when moving his savings round bank accounts, but has no intention of actually driving
My father in law is 85, very poor hearing, and is becoming more confused and forgetful (possibly dementia but we’ve not had it diagnosed). He also has difficulty walking, needing two sticks and has difficulty getting out of a chair.
A car is principally a mobility aid - a chair with wheels.
Having limited mobility is no reason not to drive - its the best reason to drive really, the rest of us are just playing at it. And cluttering up the roads to the cost of people who need them
Being forgetful is no reason not to drive
Being forgetful might not lead to a dementia diagnosis. Forgetfulness and confusion in old age can have all sorts of causes - some of the most common being boredom and depression.
Having a dementia diagnosis is not necessarily any reason not to drive. Its a notifiable condition - so if there is a medical diagnosis you have to notify. A suspicion isn't sufficient . When my mum got her diagnosis we informed the DVLA and her insurers both of whom acknowledged the notification and said carry on driving and to just to let them know if things changed- it made no difference to her premium. Its your GP who assesses whether any medical condition impacts on your ability to drive - they're the ones who advise the DVLA.
Weirdly he past his fitness to drive, but that was 8 months ago.
Maybe thats not weird. Maybe the assessment is objective rather than subjective.
I told them I'd sell the car for them. If you're asking then you probably know better than any fitness assessment.
Interesting comments.
As a GP I give dvla factual information on a person’s medical condition. I don’t decide if they can drive or not. That is for dvla to do and they employ medical advisors specifically for this.
I can advise someone of dvla’s guidance eg that they should inform dvla of their medical condition, and to stop driving after a fit etc. I’ve never had to “shop” someone to dvla. Who informs dvla of the condition doesn’t affect the decision that dvla make.
When my father in law was starting with dementia we arranged an independent assessment at one of the places that do this. I think there are a few around the country. The assessor pointed out that whilst he could do the mechanics of driving his cognitive decline meant he didn’t always comprehend the road signs so might ignore a warning sign. This helped us convince him to surrender his licence. (He had a specific type of dementia that affected his language mainly)
https://www.olderdrivers.org.uk/driver-assessment/find-a-driver-assessment/
we arranged an independent assessment at one of the places that do this
I've done an NHS Driving Assessment - makes your the test you take to get your license in the first place look like getting your cycling proficiency badge. Cognative tests, eye tests, perception and reaction tests, measured tests of how quickly and how hard you can hit the break pedal. Interesting stuff. Think about how cursory and subjective your driving test really was when you did it. Of course I'm an expert driver and so are you. but they're public roads - accessible to pretty much everyone - the bar the driving test sets is pretty low.
At 85, where's he driving to? Call me presumptuous but he's unlikely to have a three-hour round commute to work. My first car previously belonged to an elderly relative who 'needed' a car, it'd done 35,000 miles in 13 years.
If you want to stop someone from doing something, you need to provide a viable alternative. Visiting family, they can visit him. Popping to the shops, get a shopping list and arrange for home deliveries. Short trips, scooter, public transport? Regular taxis is likely cheaper than running a car, even.
It's a hard conversation and it's certainly going to be a blow to his self-esteem. I have a similar issue with my mother and even though she doesn't drive she doesn't want to be housebound, she'd see that as giving up. But if you genuinely think he's a danger then it's one you need to have. Be kind.
Think what the problem that you are trying to solve actually is.
1)Your in-laws need their mobility and freedom to travel in order to maintain their lifestyle with dignity. This includes going tot he shops, friends, out for a visit somewhere etc.
2)There are concerns that a car may not be the best way for them to do this even though they have proven fit to drive one.
3)The location of their house means that buses are not really and option and taxis are reluctant for one-off journeys.
Set up a taxi account and the 'worried' of the family pay for that?
Get and electric tricycle made for two?
Dig a canal and give them jet skis?
Have you thought beyond your worry about their driving and considered how to help them?
(Electric bike for my Mum has removed 90% of her driving)