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You probably know my story by now .
Now 58 , somewhat depressed or moreso dysthymic and have been on and off for decades. Had so many opportunities ..many would give anything for ..a good education , loving parents ( although emotionally dysfunctional) ..enough money to do what I wanted ( no longer the case ..skint and renting) , lots of attractive girlfriends ( now married ) . Been on many adventures and all over the world ..searching for something ..I know not what ,..perhaps peace of mind/purpose . Never wanted a career , kids. a big house , fancy cars etc ...just to feel at peace and understand deeper questions about life . I found the standard "game plan" that most seemed to follow and be content with ( often spending most of life doing a job they dislike in order to pay all the costs involved in existing seemed a pretty poor deal ) I used to wonder if people got a reward that wasn't able to me or perhaps they were pretending how wonderful it all was or maybe never gave such things a second thought ?
I now know I was experiencing the limitations of both Generalized anxiety disorder ( inherited ) and Attention Defecit ( diagnosed last year ) . I couldn't concentrate or study at school ..my head and imagination was where I lived and I entertained everyone with an ability to construct all sort of ideas/ stories ..both humorous , sometimes weird and often innapropriate! My brother got a scholarship to Oxford to study medicine whilst I scraped 10 O levels (somehow) and 1 low grade A .
Had zero direction / purpose ( despite opportunities / career guidance / contacts/ work experience etc )
I tried to get into Uni but anxiety and concentration screwed that . I just wanted to escape it all .
I discovered ..in order to feel good I needed to do things to extreme as the ubiquitous "joi de vivre" (that seemed to be in others much of the time) was missing . Alcohol fixed that as well as removing the baseline anxiety I lived with . I have never been happier than when drinking ..I felt alive , creative and at peace . Coming back to reality was always a source of disappointment and much of my life and plans revolved around adventure ..always accompanied by heavy drinking whenever possible . Drugs too of course and lots of promiscuity ..always yearning to feel good.. to fill the void ..I expect it's a familiar story to some .
30 yrs later I ran out of steam . I had somehow survived imbibing huge amounts for decades , scraping a living doing numerous types of work interspersed with long periods of travel and unemployment .Depression and anxiety always waiting in the background to bring me to my knees ( many times ) Somehow ..I always kept riding though perhaps why I am still alive .
Had an emergency detox in hospital 6 yrs ago and somehow haven't drunk a drop since . I expected things to get so much better ..(as so many stories recall ) but my experience of life is joyless , one of continuous stress ..I developed double vision and then and for the last 2 yrs repeating somatic symptoms similar to chronic fatigue . Chronic unhappiness and worry accompanies me everywhere and I feel stuck and helpless.
For decades I have been trying to cure myself and have been told by numerous professionals that I know more about possible helpful therapies/meds etc than they do . I studied and practiced mindfulness and meditation for a long time . Cold showers, EMDR, Progressive muscular relaxation, hard aerobic workouts, diet, medications, yoga, the list goes on . I have 100's of books as most neurotics do ...ACT , RET , REBT, Metacognitive therapy etc. I am reluctant to accept I am probably one of those for whom there is no cure although reality points that way . I have to continue to try and get better as my illness and accompanying irritability naturally affects my wife who has her own childhood monsters to deal with.
I was given a course of CBT on the NHS but.... being someone who ,through meditation .. is very aware of their thought content and to question it ) it felt I had nothing to learn or benefit from . The teacher looked and spoke like a teenager and eventually I gave up as nothing they presented was unfamiliar and it felt pointless.
So ..if anyone got to the end of my ramblings and knows about such things .... Do you still think CBT could help ...it seems to have helped so many .
Thanks for your time and kindness and apologies for yet another drawn out ramble ...it's partially self therapy I guess .
Bill
I can't help on the CBT issue as I've never had it.
But from a quick scan of that it sounds like you're chasing the 'dream' of excess and excitement sold by society.
Ever thought of going the other way? Getting an allotment? Doing some volunteering? - things don't have to be exciting to give a rewarding feeling. Gentle and boring can be good! 🙂
but my experience of life is joyless , ............ Chronic unhappiness and worry ................I feel stuck and helpless.
For decades I have been trying to cure myself............... I have to continue to try and get better as my illness and accompanying irritability naturally affects my wife
A lot of that chimes with me very much sadly.
No real thoughts as for CBT sorry. I gave up on it years ago as I just never really gelled with any of the counsellors. It definitely works for some people though, I don't think I'm one of them.
It could be just a case of finding the right person, but that can be a huge pita.
In a possibly arrogant sort of way, I always felt like they couldn't tell me anything I hadn't already figured out and so I always felt like I was wasting my time.
Not many words of advise sorry
I can't comment on CBT - I can only offer you an option on treatment. A man called Joe Kao. Joe unraveled for me a very traumatic period of my life in a remarkably short period of time. I heartedly recommend him to anyone suffering any kind of mental health issues. Whether Joe would be helpful to you I do not know, but it might be worth reaching out to him. Joe is, in my humble opinion, one of life's good guys. I owe him so much that what I paid for his services was a pittance compared to what he did for me.
Already...some very helpful replies .. thank you . I have no friends for support .. no friends at all really TBH.
In my younger years I was very popular and sociable..100's of " friends" but none who made any effort or knew how to help me .. Also .. the drink made me invincible so nobody knew perhaps but ever since word got out there was never an offer to talk.
Talking to someone with true wisdom , empathy etc would help .. I will investigate the link ..much appreciated
That's the problem with therapists/counsellors .. they are invariably not on my wavelength and being very sensitive to that generally .. At £70 an hour and little progress I just become super anxious about how I will be able to pay the bills. Also .. people rarely say anything I haven't heard before .. I saw a highly experienced and respected psychotherapist who did voluntary, NHS and Private work . She had dealt with decades of difficult people ..including my brother ( now retired GP ) but I got little benefit after £700 + ..it just increased money worries .
My brother despite having been a very popular and respected GP (and who medicates for depression himself) someone who has helped and talked to so many people in difficulty doesn't have the understanding I need. He does however do his best and these days rings me every week to just see how things are .
I often feel I am just too sensitive for this society we live in ...hence needing the alcohol anaesthetic to function well. I care too much , think too much ... Been told that so many times. Drink stopped that to a certain degree.
I just took a cold shower and a thought popped up after posting the thread earlier . It is probably true :
"I take life too seriously "
Can I change that .. unlikely ...but maybe.
Slowing down physically also helps . Accompanying insomnia doesn't . Life when you're constantly "on " is exhausting .
Slowing down physically also helps . Accompanying insomnia doesn’t . Life when you’re constantly “on ” is exhausting .
For me, there is nothing better than getting outdoors, especially into big hills and getting knackered to put some perspective on things and a natural tired calm.
Sometimes I can't sleep from this either but more often than not I'm doing the nodding dog by about half eight!
It's so difficult to get out sometimes, especially when supposedly awesome things that clearly others get excited about feel a bit joyless, but I still feel better, personally.
Hmmm
I wrote out a post but it disappeared. I wonder if it ended up on the wrong thread
Anyway...
I don't believe no one can help "cure" is a very hard thing to find but improvement should be possible
CBT IMO tends to be directive ie "in this situation do that" for what you are describing I don't think its the right approach Have you read Carl Rodgers work? I'm a big fan. Its explorative in nature.
There is a huge difference in a two way process of counseling to a self help approach. I think your self help might actually be hindering you in that you may be not engaging properly thinking " been there done that" It took me a wee while to get over that as I have some training in counseling but I have had great positive benefits from counseling over the years
The key thing is the relationship between the two of you and also in willingness to engage openly. I think this might be an issue. Are you going into these sessions with a firm conviction it will not help and thus it does not? You may also not be being open ie answering with what you think the counselor wants to hear not what yo actually feel
Unfortunately you have decodes of negative thought processes to undo. That makes any improvement hard to find indeed dismantling your psychological armour make make things worse in the short term.
I think you may also need a reset of your expectations in life and what constitutes "success"
good luck- its a hard row to hoe
TJ .. funnily enough part of my character is being strongly averse to saying what somebody wants to hear or what I think they might if it's not true. I'm also feel that showing one's vulnerability is a strength and I have ..rightly or wrongly made a habit of doing so in an effort to help others to trust and find confidence to do the same . I sadly have a wife who ..through childhood abuse is not able to help me emotionally and shuts down when feelings are spoken about .Funnily enough my Parents did the same or brushed them aside as quickly as possible so probably I never learnt to manage emotions hence being overwhelmed. I am (..or was) a Tall physically strong man on the outside but rather more little boy on the inside with nowhere to turn to .
The respected psychotherapist tried to get me to find that frightened child but he never appeared . She said he was still hiding. Sounds silly perhaps but intuitively felt somewhat close to the truth
I have always spoken my mind which has caused problems over the years ..never intending to hurt others though . that's something I try to avoid.
Life is a difficult field to plough ..and I felt relieved when I first discovered the Buddha had said the same regarding suffering and it's inevitability.
Many folk just avoid thinking and keep busy .. perhaps a wise choice
Fair enough - it was just a case of asking questions / giving thinking points rather than a firm conviction from me.
I still think person centred counseling is the way to go. But that could be my own prejudices showing. I have and still do use CBT style techniques to help me after my troubles but for deeper stuff person centred is the way to go IMO
but my experience of life is joyless , ………… Chronic unhappiness and worry …………….I feel stuck and helpless.
For decades I have been trying to cure myself…………… I have to continue to try and get better as my illness and accompanying irritability naturally affects my wife
I could have written a lot of that.
I've recently taken some very first baby steps towards working on this and I think CBT is among the options so will see how it goes. I'm open to all approaches.
I would second trying to find a person centered councillor, Their approach is collaborative rather than directive, and help you to find your own solutions, where you build a relationship with the councillor.
CBT is more about giving you techniques to help solve a problem, e.g. giving up smoking - this approach is favoured by NHS/schools etc as it delivers measurable results in a time period (6 weeks)
Disclosure: Mrs F is a person centered councillor. I'd be happy to ask her if she could recommend someone in your area if that's of any use.
Once again ..thank you all for your comments and help . StuF I may take you up on that but money is always a major stressor. For the first time in weeks ..this evening I felt a slight release of inner tension after somehow letting go a little . Not being able to relax during waking hours and chronic insomnia take it's toll on me . I get so tired I am unable to function ..except the rumination and catastrophising about the future keep going . Chronic inability to relax is a curse and unfortunately so is the easiest and quickest remedy .. a good skinful... which is no longer an option .
Bill, there have been a few threads/comments recently on here about folk turning away from the news and news sources. I count myself amongst them. In my case, I found myself getting worried/concerned/worked up about matters over which I have absolutely no control - sometimes causes I really believe in too. I'm not suggesting that ignorance is bliss though perhaps I'm heading that way. I don't know if that's relevant to you but I just thought you might find it interesting that maybe you're not alone.
As regards therapy, I can offer no advice. However, if just getting away into the hills appeals as a way of letting go a bit, and you'd like some non-judgemental (almost non-social) company, then I'm your man.
Your kind offer is very much appreciated Scotsroutes ..you are one many good folk on here . Like many do ..I have socially isolated myself for a long time now ..I guess it's some sort of way of trying to protect oneself from any more distress/pain . Maybe one day when I am well I will come your way to have a ride and talk . I have always found talking when walking or riding seems easier ..I guess you feel a little more free and less constricted . You are so right about the media . I began listening to the radio ..LBC to be precise , on a regular basis when Brexit reared it's ugly head . I enjoyed the distraction ( hated the adverts ) and became almost addicted to having it on all the time but recently began to notice how it no longer relaxed me ..in fact the opposite ...a continuous discussion of depressing subjects , lying politicians and commentary of how everything appears to be falling apart / the cost of living /threat of war ..one thing after the other to inflame an anxious mind . I often turn it off now as you suggest . I have a terrible fear of being made homeless , particularly as I am unwell much of the time ..I guess there must be so many in the same situation . It's good to have an outlet on here though ..many folk have none hence the rising rates of addiction and suicide. Fed up with being currently bed ridden with some episoidic chronic fatigue type maladie and often feel helpless but I'll probably get better ..it's just for how long before I become incapacitated yet again ..not long is the usual scenario.
Re the "ignorance is bliss" I must say I have often wished I were ignorant, thick skinned and didn't care about things ..I have known many of such ilk and they generally seem very content with their lot . Perhaps I am ...but just unlucky!
I too have given up on the news to a large extent. Its less distressing to read than TV or radio as you can choose what you read. Its too easy to get into a catastrophising ( is that a word?) state
Are you taking Vit D? I'm evangelical about it because taking vit D made such a huge difference to me. I too suffered episodic fatigue and low Vit D was the only thing found. I take it now and have not had an episode since
TJ - The VitD thing, what do you take? We started taking it, initially with an aim of combating SAD, but also because, well, it's supposed to be a good idea anyway. We're using cod liver oil tabs cos they say on the back that they're a source of Vit D3, but I'm wondering if this is the best source
I take 800iu of cheap generic Vit D daily and a multi vit. I'm probably wasting my time with the mutivit but that has another 200IU of vit D
400IU is the recommended maintenance dose but active folk may well need more and while it is possible to overdose on Vit D it takes a lot to do so
I take a double dose partly for that, partly because I forget sometimes and partly because its possible something is odd with my Vit D metabolism. When tested I was 20% of normal levels
Ta, I'll see what's in the cod liver oil tabs
I heartedly recommend him to anyone suffering any kind of mental health issues.
Interesting that a hypnotherapist has been recommended, I found that a hypnotherapist really helped me (a lot more than several courses of CBT). Definitely something worth looking into imho
I have a neurological condition that results in me not being able to walk, constant pain, and other unpleasant symptoms. I still haven't got a diagnosis after more that 3 years.
One of the symptoms is depression, often linked with inflammation which I have in my lower legs, and 3 times since the condition started I have had a mental health crisis. The last one, about 8 months ago, I talked to the mental health nurse attached to my GP surgery. He recommended an online service, and followed up with a phone consultation. The online service is not specifically billed as CBT, but is targeted at changing the reactions you have to situations and negative thoughts.
I have found the service useful, but if you are in the middle of a mental health crisis it is very difficult to apply the lessons learnt. When I spot the beginnings of a negative mood developing, or more likely my wife spots it and tells me, I am usually still in a state where I can use the advice.
Edit: I second the vitamin D advice
No experience personally of CBT, but for a living (I used to be a claimant lawyer, not work for an insurer defending road traffic accident injury claims) I get to read a lot of medical reports, including those of psychologists, psychiatrists and counsellors and along with ex-army mates that have sought counselling, my impression is that CBT, along with EMDR can be very effective, but that you have to find a counsellor that you are happy with and trust, and realise that it is a process you need to work hard at too, but that can ben very effective when done well.
Vitamin D was ordered the other day when you mentioned it TJ and it arrived today .
HughStew .. My issues feel minimal compared to yourself although I am often somewhat incapacitated by poor mental health and unpleasant physical symptoms / fatigue/pains...like you undiagnosed .. I can walk and sometimes function reasonably well . On a good day I could ride 30 miles on Devon's hardest hills although rarely in the last year.
Being undiagnosed is stressful also but I'm so used to feeling crap and with the current NHS situation I just give up and wait it out ..hoping every day to wake up feeling a little better.
I wish you good luck and do hope things improve as it's no fun being chronically unwell to say the least even without constant pain that you sadly have to cope with.
All the best
Bill
The thing about vit d is it can't possibly cause harm, in sane doses anyway I've no idea if it helps me but it's pennies to pay and no side effects so why not.
This isn't what you asked for, but for me, CBT doesn't work at all, it makes me worse. I struggled a bit with that since when I was first put on it, it was definitely the cool thing and it seemed like everyone just assumed it'd work. but of course there's no one size fits all cure, no silver bullet and realising that was as important for me as trying it in the first place was. If it doesn't work you need to be able to move on rather than wasting energy and time. And tbf it's still frustrating that professionals need a pretty hard push back to get off the subject, "tried it, didn't work" often gets heard as "maybe this time it will" "maybe with a different person" "maybe if you believed in it" etc not "I have tried this properly and no"
That's not to say it won't work for you.
Hi Bill.
I was going to start a thread myself, may do..So also another one here ✋
I had to come to terms with my mental health issues over the Christmas break. I’d been aware, my wife kept telling me to go see GP, but I kept kicking the can down the road and just living with it.
I’d really slipped into some deepening depression during the time off work, just had the strong sense of doom, and felt tense to the point I would be trembling sometimes. Hard to describe. On top of that, I’ve had some recent “difficulties” in the marriage, some caused by my mental health, some by the stresses of kids, all this caused me to need some help - quite urgently, I don’t want to go into detail here.
But, I’m now on a new journey. I have admitted to myself, and openly to close friends, that I do have anxiety (most knew that already) and depression, I am not well but I am working on it. Although embarrassing, it felt amazing to admit it.
I’ve been like it since our eldest was born I think, some 13 years. Increasingly anxious, matching most of the symptoms of generalised anxiety, have a very hard time making decisions and catastrophising a lot about every day stuff (moving house was fun!!). A hard time concentrating, or getting stuff done that needed to be done. Very poor sleeper, often awake at 2/3am, worrying about nonsense! And I’m quite gloomy about everything, depressed. This has increased over time.
I started taking some medication 10 days ago now, and I’ve been referred for CBT.
I’ve never had CBT, so willing to give it a go. But during some of my darkest nights recently, I feel I did make some progress on myself. Some self-reflection, and realisation why I do things, why my personality is as it is. Also the realisation of what my poor wife has had to live with! I am a nice, honest, hardworking, genuine guy. But my god it must have been painful listening to my sh1t day in day out!
Doc said allow 4 weeks to see any change on the medication and that we may change the dose or type, but my sleep is now a.mazing! It’s to early to say if it’s working, I do feel calmer already, but have a lot of uncertainty with my marriage, so that doesn’t help calm the mind or speed and type of thoughts. So anxiety is still quite high.
Oh, and I turned the news off! About a month or so ago!
CBT....IME, it's as useful as you'll let it be/work at.
I've done a few rounds of NHS CBT over the years and their differing depths.
My hurdle was that I believed that I am my thoughts, if i go changing my beliefs, i'm changing what it is that makes me, i was really good at the exercises, but didn't "believe" the conclusions they provoked. It didn't help me.
Traditional counselling always worked really well for me, I was also pointed to compassion focused therapy to by someone else. After a bit of soul searching and some of the foundations of compassion focused therapy re-adjusting my beliefs, i eventually got to the point where i no longer the thoughts were fundamentally what made me, me, there was something else there witnessing them which was "me", call it my soul, my spirit, whatever. Something clicked, CBT became a useful tool due to this understanding of myself.
barrysh1tpeas : sorry to hear you've been struggling with similar ..I do not now how people can cope with children/full time jobs/marital issues etc whilst experiencing the horrible effects of one or another neuroses.
I have no kids, rarely work and few commitments and still feel overwhelmed by it all ..just getting through the day is a challenge sometimes. On the odd occasion I am functioning well though ..(mentally and physically) I can be so creative , productive , sociable , enthusiastic etc but it never lasts so the potential for moving forward fades away again until I can no longer cope and end up in bed.
It does appear that you may hopefully be one of the many people for whom antidepressants really make all the difference and if indeed your thought processes are contributing /or causing much of the distress you feel ..the CBT may well be helpful ..I do hope so .
It appears many people are not aware of their thoughts being something that are often unhelpful , distorted and contribute to much of our suffering . I wonder how many people literally live as though every thought they have is virtually factual , part of them , their ego / identity and never consider challenging the content .
Another factor must be that being mindful of what is going on in your head requires " remembering" to watch "the thinker " ...... not react to the content you see .
If you give those little wisps of energy (called thoughts ) any attention they will grow and take you off down a rabbit hole before you know it ...you often won't even realize you've been seduced/ kidnapped until sometimes minutes later .
If you can see the thought arise ( requires awareness ) and not get "hooked " it will evaporate and although likely to return and sneak up again and again ...every time you acknowledge the presence, but don't get attached, the more the thought becomes demotivated to keep trying to get your attention .
Of course the thought factory still keeps churning them out ..all shapes and sizes ...but they eventually seem more distant , less frequent , less bothersome and quieter.
True freedom comes from practicing over and over ( through meditation ) until the thoughts are simply something that can be examined when and if we want . Otherwise they can be left ..like the drone of traffic in the background ...leaving you free /more at peace and able to see things as they are ..not as you are .
You may be thinking ..why I personally am not free and frankly appearing to suffer more than many ..hence the threads I start on here?
Well ..the answer is , I believe , that although I have read many , many books on related subjects ..for several decades ...looking for an answer .....I have not put in enough effort and done it correctly .
I have had a number of periods in my life when I practiced meditation twice a day for long periods but I can see now that although I sat upright and went through the motions ...I was often just passing 20/30 minutes without remembering to continuously watch and detach ..and so the true benefits were never achieved. Thoughts can be so seductive I'm afraid and tempt us to give them attention . I could repeat a mantra for example but still be deep in thought at the same time .
Also ..Having had an overactive mind all my life ( now finally diagnosed as ADHD at 58 ..beforehand chronic GAD leading to depression / dysthymia ...basically screwing my life) I had a lot more mental content to be detaching from ....(the thought factory was running at double speed) add in chronic insomnia / inability to relax and emotional dysregulation ( another primary symptom of ADHD).. and you have quite a battle !
I am going to commit to regular meditation once again (and this time put in the work) to truly focus on the
object of choice..(for many breath sensation ) and not allow even the most seductive sticky thoughts to pull me away ,..no matter how hard they try .
I practiced this new approach last night and felt a glimmer of the peace I yearn for . Hope you'll find it too .
This might inspire anyone interested ...for me he is a truly great teacher (having listened to hundreds including many masters ) . Very Young for such wisdom but authentic and compassionate . Really worth a few minutes I promise you ..might inspire kids too
Deanbfm ..I can relate to that ...it was easy to know the thoughts and challenge and change them but believing in that change often made me feel like a fraud ...It was if I had to pretend things were different to how I saw them . They do say that you have to fake it to make it though !
Noi group Vimeo Pain and perception
As per video linked above brains don't always give correct opinions!
For more on this search for Lorimer Moseley (Explain pain) or Lisa Feldman - Barrret (How emotions are made).
@anorak ..that video is fantastic .. really gets a message across that might be difficult to accept otherwise ..thanks for linking to it . Bill