[Closed] Personal value of school

edit – 2 teachers, identical responses within a second of each other. It’s almost like it’s a ‘method’. Who knew!

Thanks for that, got rather a fine LOL.  I've a few teacher friends and I have no idea how they cope with the range of skills they have to within one class.  It isn't about how 'clever' people are, it's about how they learn and what they have to learn.  I did a small amount of maths tutoring at one point and although I could have done the work instantly, working out how each student approached and thought about it and helping them was really difficult.  I can't imagine what is required to do it with a whole class at the same time

respect

My problem is I get bored doing anything after seven years. I was at school for seven years, then uni for seven years, then change career paths every seven years. It means my CV lacks continuity but I think it is just the dark side of having a high learning curve, my mind starts to eat itself when I get bored. I think it means I can sometimes see patterns that other people can't necessarily see - very good at innovation - but that doesn't translate well into being a salary man. I also find it hard to work under business hierarchies, but this comes down to assertiveness as much as anything. Now there's something I wished I learned more about at school!
The grass is always greener but the truth is a lot of highly educated people are deeply unhappy at work too. Lawyers and accountants are worried about being disrupted by the rise of digital; other than Drs, nurses and care home workers I can't think of any careers that will last undisrupted over the next thirty years.
Maybe a love of learning, a steep learning curve, use of continuous education, and most importantly (for me) the courage to deviate from the norm are what will be the difference between success and failure in the future, rather than how well someone did at school. Who knows.

If you could just use clone him a few bazillion times and we can do away with the whole damn thing.

I think that would be a very boring (and noisy for those who know him) world.
The narrative I'm trying to maintain is that different things work for different kids.

It's perhaps not hugely surprising that what works for me works for him...
However whereas I hated every minute of school he's quite happy. He does the absolute minimum work* but then he'll instead just research what he finds interesting.

*He spends almost as long working out how to do the least work as it takes to do the work.

Sadly, the right school at the right time and place for each kid to maximise their opportunities is very unlikely to be found for every one. More rounded views of education will help, and apprenticeships for nonacademic kids are great.

But there is a danger in slagging off the whole system because it has failed you as an individual. It may well have worked for many others.

I'm less trying to slag off the whole system than reacting to "schools are the best for everyone".
I'm sure as I've said it works well for a group and acceptably and not too badly for another group.

The major difference is quite a few of us here simply feel (still many many years/decades later) that school itself was the bad fit.

You could pull him out and home school him, should be easy.

Oh yay, another thread with Stevextc bitching (as excruciating length) about the failings of the UK education system.

I'm not going to read the whole thread, as it will split into 3 basic camps:

Teachers and those with a positive experience of education.

Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on, and
probably now appreciate what school was trying to do.

Stevextc metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going 'la la la' in response to anything that contradicts his blinkered views.

I think the only bit of school I really disliked was Games/PE. I was the "Odd boy who doesn't like sport" to quote Bonzo Dog. My games teacher would have been amazed to see me take up climbing/fell running/skiing/cycling later in life.

However I was at infants/juniors/grammar school from 1958 to 1972 when, I suspect, things were a little different to today's education system. Oh and by the time 6th form came around I could skive off games anyway (not formally, but because no-one cared).

Oh yay, another thread with Stevextc bitching (as excruciating length) about the failings of the UK education system.

I’m not going to read the whole thread, as it will split into 3 basic camps:

Teachers and those with a positive experience of education.

Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on, and
probably now appreciate what school was trying to do.

Stevextc metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going ‘la la la’ in response to anything that contradicts his blinkered views.

The difference is I read the thread... whereas your response is "fingers in his ears and going ‘la la la’"

The same response I expect you give to the children being made ill and scarred for life should they ever try and explain they just don't want to be there.

and that is the real problem. Given recent tragic events I'm not going to harp on about the worst consequences

Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on

Some did and other's didn't gain an education or skills later ... but regardless that doesn't take away the trauma and scars.

You could pull him out and home school him, should be easy.

Who? If it's directed at me why would I do that when my lad is happy enough at school?
One way or another he'll gain the qualifications he needs even if the school can't help him. So long as he doesn't hate it and become ill then its free childcare.

Right I'm probably going to get banned for this (or at least told off).

The difference is I read the thread… whereas your response is “fingers in his ears and going ‘la la la’”

The same response I expect you give to the children being made ill and scarred for life should they ever try and explain they just don’t want to be there.

and that is the real problem. Given recent tragic events I’m not going to harp on about the worst consequences

**** you. Yes you Stevextc. **** off.

I've just spent the last 9 months trying to teach, support, nurture, and sometimes just listening to upset and traumatized kids of all ages.

I've done this while the govt and ****ing right wing press have constantly talked down and denigrated teachers.
We've had our pay frozen, had to work all hours, no ppe, and **** all social distancing.

And come January I'm now expected to start administering ****ing covid tests while teaching a full timetable to some students in school and some working remotely at home.

I'm stressed out, at the end of my ****ing tether, but I hold it together so the kids don't see how ****ing scared I am.

All you do is bich about schools and teachers, but don't add anything helpful or constructive as far as I can see.
Come on then if your so ****ing good, teach.
Or volunteer in a school, or do anything other than constantly ****ing moaning.

**** off.

I think the only bit of school I really disliked was Games/PE. I was the “Odd boy who doesn’t like sport” to quote Bonzo Dog. My games teacher would have been amazed to see me take up climbing/fell running/skiing/cycling later in life.

This thread is heading in a direction but this bit is interesting. I suspect most people on here didn't like sport at school yet we all do sport now as a hobby. Back in my schooldays I remember there was a lot of backlash when competitive sport or sports days were criticised but looking back it was a fair point. There was a load of focus on competing and winning, and very little on taking part. How many people are put off healthy exercise by school sports? Hopefully things are a bit better now.

If you don't like the thread stop reading it...

I’ve just spent the last 9 months trying to teach, support, nurture, and sometimes just listening to upset and traumatized kids of all ages.

What has that got to do with people who are unsuited to schools?
The many people on this thread that you didn't bother to read were all in school long before Covid 19.
The only real relevance today is that the "kids are only safe in schools" narrative has been adopted by the government. All the moaning about funding and pay has been done with the narratives that schools are vital to every child and now it's been picked up by an Eton educated government and turned around ...

All you do is bich about schools and teachers, but don’t add anything helpful or constructive as far as I can see.
Come on then if your so * good, teach.
Or volunteer in a school, or do anything other than constantly * moaning.

* off.

You really don't read the thread do you?
No matter how many people say the problem is/was the school making them ill you think it can be fixed somehow.

Why would I even go into a school with their closed minds and ideas that it works for everyone and if it doesn't they can just say "we do it differently now?"
I've offered the obvious constructive comment in making school optional but you don't seem to be able to accept it. You seem stuck in a paradigm of forcing kids it makes ill into school.

Those who disliked school, but who managed to gain an education or skills later on

Once again we are conflating education and school.
True many many people don't value education because of their experience at school but you can't change that, it's still a prison whatever you do until it's made non-compulsory. Their perception of education is school ... which to me simply shows how badly school failed them.

I’ve done this while the govt and * right wing press have constantly talked down and denigrated teachers.

It's irrelevant to this thread ... the issue for many is schools not teachers (certainly in general, there are obviously good and bad teachers like anyone else) but non of that makes any difference in terms of kids being forced into school against their will and to the detriment of their physical and mental health.

You can't change that ... certainly not whilst you refuse to acknowledge the harm it has done many of us.

If you make schooling optional you know full well which parents will keep which kids out of school. If you have any doubt check out who keeps which profile of child out of school.

Collective schooling is cohensive, it's the foundation of collective experience and values that makes our society the fuctioning cosmopolitan inclusive integrated melting pot it is.

You claim your schooling has done you harm, Stevextc, and yet your posts on most subjects suggest it's done you a lot of good.

I went to a shit school, the teachers were excellent but it was a shit school because of lousy parents who sent their feral little offspring there. On the bright side some left a little less feral than they started. I left knowing more than I'd have liked about self-defence and unarmed combat, and with enough pieces of paper to make my dreams come true.

School is only there to make you into model citizens with a given set of information and bias

Bless em for trying

Why would I even go into a school with their closed minds...

Irony.

If you make schooling optional you know full well which parents will keep which kids out of school. If you have any doubt check out who keeps which profile of child out of school.

I'm really not certain how true that is but on the other side it's not working on the profile anyway. From what I see those who leave school barely able to write a coherent sentence are simply copying their parents..

You may well save some but others are being "punished" for nothing and those who don't want to be there aren't going to learn 'just because' they are forced into school against their will.

Collective schooling is cohensive, it’s the foundation of collective experience and values that makes our society the fuctioning cosmopolitan inclusive integrated melting pot it is.

I can't say for France but there is no mandate to do that in the UK. Even if that is the intention then it's not working.

You claim your schooling has done you harm, Stevextc, and yet your posts on most subjects suggest it’s done you a lot of good.

Nothing of that came from school, except the deep seated distrust of authority and other personality traits that make life harder. Or is this chicken and egg, were those personality traits always the same?

The truth is I don't think they were ... or if they were then school is what made them what they are. School trained me to be the one thing I find most difficult, working for a corporate entity.

I went to a shit school, the teachers were excellent but it was a shit school because of lousy parents who sent their feral little offspring there. On the bright side some left a little less feral than they started. I left knowing more than I’d have liked about self-defence and unarmed combat, and with enough pieces of paper to make my dreams come true.

See reality wise like other's who commented, I just learned what I needed for those bits of paper myself. Everything else was a price I had to pay ..I didn't even take the CSE's in the subjects I was actually meant to and that price has been very heavy and is still being paid decades later.

The big difference it seems to me is other than the feral kids you actually wanted to be there.
I didn't from day 1 until the day I did my last exam.

Right I’m probably going to get banned for this (or at least told off).

WWW: Good use of *****.
EBI: Try it again but dont forget to make more use of caps lock and exclamation marks!!

My take on the original question.

Most kids are stupid. They don't learn very well, don't retain it for long and have no clue how to study. Couple that with they would rather do other things that school work means that you have to teach the same lesson effectively 4-5 times. The amount of information I actually try and get my students to learn in 50 mins is tiny.

Took me till I was older to actually be able to do anything academically. Very few kids are actually bright enough to learn quickly. Most of the stuff I "learned" at school is forgotten because I don't use it but as education does not just teach you stuff you will need but it has to be a well rounded experience. You get choices on what to sit your exams on and it narrows the higher up the education system you go.

School is also not just about academic learning. Teachers are there to help kids become responsible adults and guide them into adulthood.

Yes I wanted to be there. I wanted to be in the swimming pool this morning. An outdoor pool in December in the rain, I would have trouble convincing anyone it was pleasant but I struck out and got on with it knowing that it helps keep my asthma at bay and if I keep it up then in Summer I'll enjoy swimming along the coast.

I learned to swim at school, thank you Joyce the swimming instructor, my parents weren't into swimming, I may never have learned without school. I've still got the life saving certificates. Sadly some of Madame's students will never learn even with obligatory school swimming lessons because their parents get notes written by complicit doctors.

Edukator

Yes I wanted to be there. I wanted to be in the swimming pool this morning. An outdoor pool in December in the rain, I would have trouble convincing anyone it was pleasant but I struck out and got on with it knowing that it helps keep my asthma at bay and if I keep it up then in Summer I’ll enjoy swimming along the coast.

That's a very fundamental difference.
There is a world away form putting up with something that isn't always nice and something that has a deep seated irrational terror [hantise if you can find the right phrase in English]

Sadly some of Madame’s students will never learn even with obligatory school swimming lessons because their parents get notes written by complicit doctors.

Although I think swimming is an important life skill I'm not really certain forcing kids in water who are terrified is a productive thing to do.
Perhaps less likely to be needed in everyday life but being able to send a 40' road gap is a useful skill as is abseiling or many other things.

When I worked in some tower blocks in Libya the escape route was a 11 story canvas tunnel that was rolled out of the window. I thought it was brilliant practicing so I got the job of going first and securing the end but one of our secretaries was terrified. Others were maybe less keen but saw the point in practicing.
Would physically forcing or threatening the secretary really have helped? Maybe she'd do it once and find it was fun? Equally she might not.

Anyway, the point is that's how I felt EVERY DAY... I had so many fake sore throats I ended up getting my tonsils out but that was better than school... trips to the dentist that weren't needed with mystery aches... and anything else I could possibly do.

If you make schooling optional you know full well which parents will keep which kids out of school.

I never thought I'd ever type this but, gods help me, I agree with Edukator.

The kids that most need to be in school are already the ones least likely to turn up if they could possibly avoid it, and this was true when I was at school as today. It's not just the kids either, if they're of less fortunate breeding then their parents are likely to be going "well why should we bother then?" Can you not see why making it optional might well not have the outcome you seem to expect?

I understand that you didn't have a great experience at school and I don't doubt for a moment that the same could be said by many others. But I'm not entirely convinced that "if you don't want to then you don't have to" is such a great precedence to be setting. This country has a surfeit of self-entitled morons to start with.

POAH

Most kids are stupid. They don’t learn very well, don’t retain it for long and have no clue how to study

And yet they can memorise the entire set of Pokémon or 101 other things with no effort.
Most of them picked up a language with little effort, many more than 1.
My deceased friends son has downs syndrome but speaks perfectly good English and French.

This makes me think there is something else going on ... that isn't being "stupid" ... obviously some kids thrive on it but equally obviously many don't.

Took me till I was older to actually be able to do anything academically. Very few kids are actually bright enough to learn quickly.

So were the ones that did brighter than you ? Or were they just more interested? Happier to be learning? Happier to be in school? [all genuine questions]

[hantise if you can find the right phrase in English]

I'm not sure how cartoon Japanese porn is relevant.

Collins suggests a translation of 'obsession'. Which does seem relevant. (-: I don't know what happened with you and honestly don't wish to know, but was the issue "school" or "your school"? Ie, could whatever you hated have been addressed by means other than non-attendance?

Would physically forcing or threatening the secretary really have helped? Maybe she’d do it once and find it was fun? Equally she might not.

Escaping from a terrorist attack isn't supposed to be fun. Would she been more or less terrified of the chute if the building was on fire?

We've been here before Steve... Your own experience is of course valid, but that's all it is - YOUR own experience. I would be wary of extrapolating widely from that statistically insignificant sample.

There are of course students for whom school creates the feelings you describe, but I really don't believe the numbers are anywhere near as high as you believe. I've been a pastoral leader in secondary schools for about 10 years now and would be really confident that in every cohort I've worked with its only around 2 or 3 percent who have that dread fear of school and for those my focus is always to find a solution that works for everyone within the structures we are bound by. Generally that's achievable and in most cases it doesn't involve forcing those students to attend an institution they find impossible to cope with.

IME your view of mainstream education continues to be anachronistic and too based on your own personal experience (I've said elsewhere that based on your comments about the way they do things I would never want to work at your son's school). The confirmation bias on all sides in this thread isn't helping either.

Cougar

The kids that most need to be in school are already the ones least likely to turn up if they could possibly avoid it, and this was true when I was at school as today. It’s not just the kids either, if they’re of less fortunate breeding then their parents are likely to be going “well why should we bother then?” Can you not see why making it optional might well not have the outcome you seem to expect?

I think a lot depends on the HOW and NEED.
I would certainly have been in the ones least likely to turn up AND doubtless deemed to be in "greatest need" except I skived as much as I could (most of the final 2 years to 16) and it turns out I didn't need it, indeed I did much better academically without it.
My brother would have gone anyway...I just disrupted what classes I went to in the hope of being sent home again. It didn't occur to me at the time I was ruining it for others because all I thought about was how to not be in school.

I'd have been happy to get the material and some exam questions ... which is exactly what my then 10yr old did in his SATS. He even specified we (parents) were not allowed to help or interfere and he improved spectacularly.

One way would just allow the kids to take tests to show they are above the level required.
I don't believe this is intractable, we just have to shift the paradigm.

I understand that you didn’t have a great experience at school and I don’t doubt for a moment that the same could be said by many others. But I’m not entirely convinced that “if you don’t want to then you don’t have to” is such a great precedence to be setting. This country has a surfeit of self-entitled morons to start with.

Like I say it's not working ... schools are still turning out plenty of illiterate, self entitled morons.

As I and someone else said earlier the problem is conflating school and education. School is one way that works for some... I don't think most businesses stress or even use classrooms anymore (certainly not the ones I've worked for) I'm meant to have 40hrs a year training..plus compulsory training and non of it has been in a classroom for ages.. (except one that wasn't very useful but I fancied the trip)

Lots of "educated" people actively eschew education anyway.
T'interwebby is full of "where can I get my brakes bled" for example because many people just don't want to learn. I personally find that hard to imagine... not the money aspect but not wanting to learn to maintain your own bike...lucky for those who do bike maintenance as a living there are plenty of them.

Cougar

I’m not sure how cartoon Japanese porn is relevant.

Collins suggests a translation of ‘obsession’. Which does seem relevant.

It doesn't really translate into English but Edukator will maybe put the correct phrase.
One phrase might be an irrational fear... another might be phobia (but that's a seperate word).
It's typically something that can't be overcome ...

colournoise

Fair points

I’ve worked with its only around 2 or 3 percent who have that dread fear of school and for those my focus is always to find a solution that works for everyone within the structures we are bound by.

In context less than deaths from Covid... but at least you seem to recognise the "dread fear".
The question is wider though... lets say it's 2-3% who have such a fear they will self harm or worse, it doesn't mean there is not a larger group that are pretty unhappy and not learning what they could.
It's a sliding scale, my lad does better academically outside of school but he more or less enjoys going and I'm confident he'll learn what interests him in his own time.

my focus is always to find a solution that works for everyone within the structures we are bound by

That's laudable and again it's good to hear the recognition of the 2-3% .. my question really is if those binding structured were removed could a wider number take advantage of them?
As I pointed out earlier my lad is learning French from Duolingo and as someone then commented "but its written by adults and they employ teachers". It's totally missing the point ... it's not that its written by teachers or not its because he's chosen to learn it. [and his conversations with his friend in France probably help as much but that's not important]

Are we not missing a trick here being stuck with these structures and the paradigm of school building = learning?

Just as many offices have found out recently, not everyone needs to be there... in person. Many are more productive at home even unsupervised.

And that's where the real world sticks is dirty oar in...

If the paradigm shift you describe was the magic bullet then we wouldn't be seeing the learning gaps we did when schools reopened as students would have found their own effective way through home education. I personally don't believe they're as bad as some have shouted about but they are deffo there. I know this is a gross simplification and many other factors are at play right now but even so... We tried to offer a range of approaches to students to try and 'hit' as many as we could but the gaps seem evenly spread and is sum it up as 'I don't need to, and you can't monitor it, so why bother?'.

Your vision needs society to change in a major way as well as the education system. Not saying it isn't laudable but in the real world it's not going to happen any time soon.

colournoise

If the paradigm shift you describe was the magic bullet then we wouldn’t be seeing the learning gaps we did when schools reopened as students would have found their own effective way through home education.

I'm not sure an unplanned and unprepared one does and we would expect learning gaps because this system works well for many (maybe most depending on how you define "well") .

It hardly is unbiassed when my kid was meant to write an essay about "why home education doesn't work" after the first lockdown when it most certainly did work for him academically and he's quite happy in school.

We tried to offer a range of approaches to students to try and ‘hit’ as many as we could but the gaps seem evenly spread and is sum it up as ‘I don’t need to, and you can’t monitor it, so why bother?’.

I'm not really certain how much worse that is?
I don't think my 11yr old's attitude is really different to most boys his age in doing the absolute minimum. (and spending longer working out the absolute minimum than doing the work)

When it's something he chooses to learn/teach himself he'll spend hours and hours, again no different to most 11yr old boys from my experience.

edits forgot

Your vision needs society to change in a major way as well as the education system. Not saying it isn’t laudable but in the real world it’s not going to happen any time soon.

Perhaps but then society is always changing... work related education/training already has, as has actual "office based work"... accelerated by Covid/lockdown.

In the same way the gig economy (like it or not) is rolling over everything and brexit aside globalisation of "the workforce" will continue though I think the definition of "the workforce" will change as quickly.

How much of your son's attitude is conditioned by your attitude, Stevextc? My son saw his mother going off happily to school at the same time he did. We were positive about what he did there, took an interest and helped if asked. His positive attitude made him a star with his mates and I assume the teaching staff were happy. I only went to two parents' evenings in 16 years. The deal was simple, over 15/20 and a clean report book and your school is your domain.

Dread isn't always irrational, it can be born of your own experiences or instilled by others. When teachers meet the parents of kids with issues they often realise where the issues come from.

Hanging onto a grudge after at least 15 years is perhaps not healthy for yourself and if you are allowing it to influence your son's attitude to school unhealthy for him too. Kids are pretty good at finding their own way in the world if given a chance, inform them, don't manipulate them - if ever they work it out they'll resent it later.

There seems to be several threads winding their way through this single thread, and while I don't agree completely with Stevextc, there is a point (somewhere!) in what he is saying, which funnily enough actually links with what others are saying, but not in so many words.

These are the 2 problems to over come.

Anecdote time to illustrate my point.

I HATED the humanities subjects at school, with a passion until year 9. Then something changed (problem 1) I actually started to enjoy History and RS/RE whatever it was called where you are. Why? What happened? The teachers changed. That's all. However, the new History teacher (for year 9 and GCSE) I had was the best teacher I've ever had, and I kept contact with him after leaving school for a few years. He was so enthusiastic about the subject. He absolutely loved it, and that stuck. We'd (the class) go off on tangents and discuss all sorts of things that were only slightly connected to the original point we were learning, but that made learning the original point less tiresome/more enjoyable and you could see the class were engaged, and picking up extra things like critical thinking. He changed it so much for me personally, I studied it to A level, luckily with him as one of my teachers. This brings me to problem 2...

For A levels (regardless of we'd chosen to do that subject) the class size was a lot smaller because not so many people chose it. This made the lessons a lot more free flowing, interactive and engaging. Again, his enthusiasm was partly to blame, but also it meant that there was a lot more 'getting to know you' from his side as he had more time to spend on each student.

Fix these 2 problems, and things would drastically improve IMO.

Also the fact that teaching as a career should be held in a much higher regard rather than "they get 6 weeks off at summer what more do they want?" sort of view to get the best people to do it wouldn't hurt!

When teachers meet the parents of kids with issues they often realise where the issues come from.

I agree.

Also the fact that teaching as a career should be held in a much higher regard

I agree even more.

Edukator

How much of your son’s attitude is conditioned by your attitude, Stevextc? My son saw his mother going off happily to school at the same time he did. We were positive about what he did there, took an interest and helped if asked. His positive attitude made him a star with his mates and I assume the teaching staff were happy. I only went to two parents’ evenings in 16 years. The deal was simple, over 15/20 and a clean report book and your school is your domain.

He's fine with school as school ... and until this academic year he was at the same one as his mother.
He just finds it boring and has no wish to be better than anyone else. His ideal grade is a pass because that is his definition of success.

Teacher wise (or perhaps in general) though he's very marmite. If he's interested in something it's hard to get him to shut up and many teachers understandably don't like that nor want to be corrected in front of the class.

At primary he alternated between teachers that loved him and teachers that despised him, one of the ones who really despised him wanted to move him out of her class and we (both parents and kid) were happy for that but the head refused whilst other teachers are still in touch and send HIM Christmas cards (separate to his mum). His last form teacher would prefer to never see him again in her life but the feeling is mutual.

What he did learn and for the life of me I don't know if its good or bad ...was you give the answer the teacher thinks is correct, even if it's incorrect.
We had a perfect example earlier...
"<someone> say's for a material to be solid it must be cold, is <someone> correct" (someone was a name but irrelevant and I can't remember it)

When I asked him what he thought the answer was he said "what does cold mean?" but then he decided that wasn't the Yes/No answer expected and answered "No". He's perfectly capable of understanding that 800C is "cold" for a magma chamber or blast furnace he just made a judgement that wasn't the answer the teacher was looking for and would involve more work for getting marked incorrect even if the question is bull poo.

My answer then and now would be an essay on "what is cold?" ... but one gets marked correct and the other gets a "no-one likes a smart-arse" mark so I don't know if there is a "right answer".

Then I guess the other thing is why would he find this interesting at all when he already knows it?

Hanging onto a grudge after at least 15 years is perhaps not healthy for yourself

Is vomiting a grudge? The reason I don't to parents evening is because I am ill if I step inside a school. Do they really want me to attend when I'd throw up everywhere?

and if you are allowing it to influence your son’s attitude to school unhealthy for him too. Kids are pretty good at finding their own way in the world if given a chance, inform them, don’t manipulate them – if ever they work it out they’ll resent it later.

I don't know how you don't influence a child .. are you suggesting I lie?
Either way his approach his different to mine. I would have (and still would) refuse to answer the question because it is meaningless.

I did this for a professional exam once and was pulled out for my answer "they are the same" as it was a trick question asking to show the difference between 2 equations. Apparently I was the only person ever to just write "NO - they are equivalent" and the person who wrote the question told me they actually very happy someone eventually could see that without a page of pointless derivations.

On the other hand, both of us make sure we get mediocre marks anyway by delibveratly answering questions incorrectly because we don't want to stick out or something. I don't know if that's good or bad either so long as when he gets to his exams he writes the correct answer not a deliberately incorrect one ? It is after all what he'll be expected to do if he works for a corporation when he is older.

So I told him to just write whatever answer he thought was best.
Is that good/bad? I feel so long as he knows it's a BS answer to make his life easy it doesn't matter and probably far better than being punished for pointing out the answer is BS.

Dread isn’t always irrational, it can be born of your own experiences or instilled by others. When teachers meet the parents of kids with issues they often realise where the issues come from.

I've no wish to EVER enter a school again, why would I put myself through that?
The thought of it makes me nauseous and last time I tried 30 years ago (measuring a playground for a summer job) I was tachycardic and vomited.

crazyjenkins01

Also the fact that teaching as a career should be held in a much higher regard rather than “they get 6 weeks off at summer what more do they want?” sort of view to get the best people to do it wouldn’t hurt!

All of that requires actually going into a school though.. out in "the real world" education happens in many different ways, only some of which involve classrooms now. (I mean 2000+ not Covid times)

So hitting your point.... what do you mean by "teachers"?
Are you including the people who contribute to learning apps? (such as pointed out earlier Duolingo)

At primary he alternated between teachers that loved him and teachers that despised him,

That fact that you either use such language or actually believe teachers despise him says a lot about you.

Junior noted some of the physics/geology didn't match up to what I explained out in the field on walks. I told him not to worry about it because stuff is simplified in your early years at school and then gets closer to our full understanding as you go through the education system. He accepted that quite happily. No point undermining what teachers are doing.

That fact that you either use such language or actually believe teachers despise him says a lot about you.

How can what his teacher say's about him reflect on me?

Edukator

Junior noted some of the physics/geology didn’t match up to what I explained out in the field on walks. I told him not to worry about it because stuff is simplified in your early years at school and then gets closer to our full understanding as you go through the education system. He accepted that quite happily. No point undermining what teachers are doing.

I just agreed the question was stupid and poorly constructed then let him make his own mind up on how he wanted to answer it.

He has his own method for putting deliberately incorrect answers anyway to avoid scoring too highly so whether he chooses this one to write an incorrect answer or another makes no odds.

How can what his teacher say’s about him reflect on me?

His teacher said to you that they despise your son? I'm going to have to call BS on that.

How can what his teacher say’s about him reflect on me?

So tye teacher told you they despise your son? I'm calling bullshit.

I disliked my secondary school, and when I'm King the first thing I'll be doing is banning private schools just to piss them off. But my dislike is miles away from this:

I’ve no wish to EVER enter a school again, why would I put myself through that?
The thought of it makes me nauseous and last time I tried 30 years ago (measuring a playground for a summer job) I was tachycardic and vomited.

Serious answer time: @stevextc I find it very hard to believe your kid isn't picking up on this - certainly my daughters have worked out loads of things my wife and I thought were secret. Unless your kid is one of unfortunate few to be bullied, or genuinely suffering from systematically poor teaching (which strikes me as highly unlikely), perhaps you ought to consider some kind of professional help to get over what is (seen from the outside) an extreme over-reaction to your time at school?

Why doesn't he want to score too highly? I got my shins kicked and worse for that which was bullying. As I said the problem in my schooling wasn't the school or the system it was the ferals. Successful retaliation resulted in punishment but I sucked that up and continued with the high scores.

Madame had a problem with a sort of mafia in one class which put pressure on kids not to perform.

Keep your eyes and ears open, the problem might be the other kids.

His teacher said to you that they despise your son? I’m going to have to call BS on that.

His teacher told the head she wanted him out of her class and a few comments to colleagues in the staff room which were repeated to his mother (who is also a teacher at the same school).

She refused to mark his SATS done at home and the HOY did it instead.

His teacher told the head she wanted him out of her class and a few comments to colleagues in the staff room

So she didnt either say she "despised" him or demonstrate any behaviour showing she despised him, you really do either need to pull on some big boy pants and get on with life or seek professional for your issues.

Why doesn’t he want to score too highly?

Expectation management ... the UK at primary now does expectation based grades so if you "exceed" one term you can only go down the next or have a spiraling expectation.

He worked this out himself but I can't really argue as it's the same as work used to do.
"You got an 'exceeds' last Q, why have you slipped to 'meets'"?

So long as he pulls his finger out for exams I guess he's learned a useful skill for the world of work.. or he'll end up working 18hr days just to try and keep the exceeds

She refused to mark his SATS done at home and the HOY did it instead.

I can think of a few reasons to do that and none have anything to do with the kid.

So she didnt either say she “despised” him

That was one of the comments yes.
As those who have met him on here will know he can be very enthusiastic and very very chatty on anything he is interested in. (As I said he's very marmite with his teachers and I'm not completely blaming them for that). His last HOY sent him a personal XMAS card this year... his form teacher asked for him to be put into a different form... we were happy, his HOY was happy and presumably the teacher was happy but the head for whatever reason said no

I can think of a few reasons to do that and none have anything to do with the kid.

Well the fact she predicted he'd do terribly may have been one reason?

A big difference between performance in class and work done at home. A difference in style compared with work done in class.

If it's due to a comparison with your son's deliberately erratic work with deliberate wrong answers then he really isn't doing himself any favours because if he does much better in a test done at home the teacher will wonder why and if it's likely to become an issue with the parents just hand it to the HOY to deal with.

We have a laugh sometimes with work done at home by Madame's kids. First step is to type anything odd into a browser and see where it's from.

If it’s due to a comparison with your son’s deliberately erratic work with deliberate wrong answers then he really isn’t doing himself any favours because if he does much better in a test done at home the teacher will wonder why and if it’s likely to become an issue with the parents just hand it to the HOY to deal with.

His mother just got the HOY to deal with it... due to lockdown etc. only actually possible since she has all the other teachers private numbers. Either way he's clear of that school now and seems to get on well with his current teachers.

If it’s due to a comparison with your son’s deliberately erratic work with deliberate wrong answers then he really isn’t doing himself any favours because if he does much better in a test done at home the teacher will wonder why

This was just due to lockdown, he's usually just erratic at school.
He just calculates the bare miniumum to scrape though then suddenly he'll do something exceptional then he'll be back to bare minimum.

We have a laugh sometimes with work done at home by Madame’s kids. First step is to type anything odd into a browser and see where it’s from.

His mother was invigilating and she takes it very seriously... plus there was an iPhone at stake.

He pulled the same thing years ago when he was 5... "If I can ride this bike without stabilisers can I have a proper bike"... I'm pretty sure he'd practiced with friends bikes at school because there was zero learning, he just pedalled off, turned round and pedalled back. (Sadly a missed moment as I wasn't even ready to film)

Also for reasons I can't explain I used to do the same at school. [seriously can't say why] but we had one English teacher who gave out homework and being in the bottom remedial set it was stupidly easy and quicker to just answer than try and answer incorrectly. We had red pens to mark... so I just used to mark correct answers incorrect knowing he'd never check a wrong answer. One week we got surprised and had to swap books and I got some silly high mark... the teacher didn't believe it and just made a mark up.

Ultimately it didn't make any difference as I entered for GCE not CSE anyway.

plus there was an iPhone at stake

At 11! Junior got a dumb phone at 15. We've never rewarded junior's academic performance with anything other than verbal congratulations. Not even an 1.2 at Abitur/félicitations du jury at Bac.

Kids need to learn to live up to their own expectations not other people's. Parental expectations can too easily become parental pressure and too much of it destructive. With an expensive reward such as an iPhone you're revealing how much his success means to you. That might work for as long as he's trying to please you but that won't be for much longer. At some point he has to start working for himself, the motivation coming from within to reach his own goals.

We'll discuss this again when he's 15. 😉

So were the ones that did brighter than you ? Or were they just more interested? Happier to be learning? Happier to be in school?

totally brighter and smarter.

and by stupid I don't mean thick. kids are generally stupid and don't listen to adults that have been through the exact same thing thus able to offer advice.

He just finds it boring and has no wish to be better than anyone else.

different teachers; different subjects; different conditions in school. You'll find a lot of kids change year to year. How old is he now?

From my experience as a parent and pupil. we have a state educational system which is almost completely based on ‘one size fits all’. Systemically it doesn’t appear to really recognise or support individual differences.

An argument could be made that is works to some degree for most people and that is the only efficient and economic way.

Personally, I’m not sure that works or that argument is even morally justifiable, but seeing as the rest of our societal systems are similar...

This is before we even acknowledge that some schools are appalling anyway and more about crowd control than education.

I think we need to revisit the purpose of education - especially as automation increases. The original notions of social control or creating effective parts to fit in our economic machine don’t seem so relevant to me.

My education was like a long drawn out car crash.

Secondary School, was the real disaster. We took some kind of pre-entry tests and I was put in the top set for everything as 'gifted' but kids being kids, my mates convinced me there had been some kind of mistake and I spent the whole first year waiting to be found out, I crashed through the sets and spent more time staring out of the windows. Even now, decades later, if I must take a course for work, if it involves someone talking over some Powerpoint slides or whatever, I might as well not bother, I just don't have the attention span for it. I was being bullied a lot at the time too, so it was boring in class and hell at break times.

I actually did 1 year of 6th form, mostly because it made my Mum happy, this was still an age when about half the kids left school at 16 to get a job so her sending me off to school with the 6th form tie on was a badge of honour, even if I was only going for GCSE resits and some kind of "A Level equivalent” GNVQ. I did the second year of 6th form in collage.

It's not to say I didn't learn anything in school, the odd thing that interested me stuck very easily and I picked up enough, especially in collage to at least act like I had some marketable skills.

I won't say what actual qualifications I gained, I've mentioned it before and some STWers got VERY upset that I cheated the system and I have a nice, middle-class, reasonably well-paid job now. To them I should be hitting rocks with a hammer or doing something wearing Hi-Viz in a Van because to them only thick people don’t have the usual “9 GCSEs, 3 A-Levels and a Degree” and only thick people have a Trade. I'm always amazed when people in middle age and older still put so much worth in a degree gained decades before.

Anyway. I entered the workplace at 19, working in a Call Centre, which I detested. If school was boring then saying the same thing over and over 200 times a day was torture. I actually picked up the basics in English working in that job I just missed in school. A few years later, I 'accidentally' got a job in a Bank, it was advertised under one of their sub-brands I'd never heard off. The description made little sense to me, mainly because I wasn't a great reader back then. It was one of the times my Education was very useful to me, I was the only Non-Grad out of 50+ applicants to apply, I was almost binned at the application stage because of that and they only interviewed me because the Boss was pissed off at the lack of workplace experience from the first round of applicants. When they asked me about some basic accounting principles, Management Buy Outs etc etc I knew about that stuff from collage. I spent 15 mins selling the virtues of a 'Vocational Education' (I phrase I'd only heard a few minutes before when he said "so, you had a Vocational Education?". Frankly, I was pretty thick when I started that job, the holes in my education were huge and abundant, but it was easy to ‘fake it till you make it’ because it doesn’t matter if you can’t spell very well if you only ever write in Word, which has a spelling and grammar tool, and it really don’t matter if your Maths skills are crap, because no one is going to trust you to write out a complex loan agreement on paper, far too much money to risk with human error, it’s all done on the system. I was in my mid-20s before my basic skills were what most people leave school with. Ironically by then I was a mentor for the Grad Scheme.

I won’t say what actual qualifications I gained, I’ve mentioned it before and some STWers got VERY upset that I cheated the system and I have a nice, middle-class, reasonably well-paid job now. To them I should be hitting rocks with a hammer or doing something wearing Hi-Viz in a Van because to them only thick people don’t have the usual “9 GCSEs, 3 A-Levels and a Degree” and only thick people have a Trade. I’m always amazed when people in middle age and older still put so much worth in a degree gained decades before.

LOL that's me in trouble then too. I got 4 x Cs at GCSE in the first year they came out.... I have no further education qualifications.

Well unless you class a City and Guilds in CAD as qualifications, which funnily has absolutely nothing to do with my job 😀

Plenty of thick people with

the usual “9 GCSEs, 3 A-Levels and a Degree

...

I got 4 x Cs at GCSE

I got 5!!!! Although I did re do English and get a C in that too!!

It has changed a lot since I started work in the 80's though. I had some low grade A levels but managed to end up doing pretty well in a job that 100% needs a degree these days
School didn't work well for me either (socially or learn/revise/test) but I don't bitch and whine about it and is reality we can't have 100 different types of schools to suit 100 different types of pupil

iAll of that requires actually going into a school though.. out in “the real world” education happens in many different ways, only some of which involve classrooms now. (I mean 2000+ not Covid times)

So hitting your point…. what do you mean by “teachers”?
Are you including the people who contribute to learning apps? (such as pointed out earlier Duolingo)

Sorry, wasn't in work yesterday.

To be honest I hadn't thought of the contributors, but do they teach as well as d this? Or are they teacher trained but no longer teach? I dont know. But when i say teacher, I mean one from a school environment.

Yes, learning take many forms and a lot can be 'picked up' in the real world with no formal training, but school is part of that full package. The education system of the UK needs a proper look at, modernisation and the whole career of being a formal teacher needs to be recognised and lauded a lot more.

The 6 weeks holiday is a perfect example of the wrong way this is looked at. Yes they get a "nice long summer holiday" but  the general public don't even consider that most teachers, as had been hinted at by posters on here, spend time almost every weekday (and sometimes weekend) evenings, doing marking/planning/task setting etc. because there aren't enough teachers, so they have no time during the day to do all this, and this is unpaid hours. so yes, teachers deserve all the holidays they get.

POAH

different teachers; different subjects; different conditions in school. You’ll find a lot of kids change year to year. How old is he now?

I think in part it's what you said earlier ... he's bored because everything gets explained 5 times and even when he might benefit from the 23nd the 5th is well into hoping to be sat next to a window time.

Add to that his previous enthusiasm has been curbed due to widely different practices.
He's always loved reading and in Yr3 he was allowed to use the Yr 6 library but then his Yr 4 teacher stopped that. (Just an example) Essentially he doesn't see the point in sticking out. He also made this worse for himself by deliberately "fake asking" the teacher about certain things in Yr6 books that were probably inappropriate for Yr4.

Add to that the grading system. It doesn't matter how well he does in terms of answers only how he performed compared to last term/yr. If he does well one term then he can only get a meets expectations the next term.

He started his last year at primary with some enthusiasm but it quickly became clear he couldn't please his form teacher (other than by being quiet perhaps).

kerley

and is reality we can’t have 100 different types of schools to suit 100 different types of pupil

You are conflating schools and education (again) ... Most employer's today find they get better value and results from allowing different types of learning.

crazyjenkins01

But when i say teacher, I mean one from a school environment.

Yes, learning take many forms and a lot can be ‘picked up’ in the real world with no formal training, but school is part of that full package. The education system of the UK needs a proper look at, modernisation and the whole career of being a formal teacher needs to be recognised and lauded a lot more.

I think the first thing is to do an unbiased assessment of what that whole package should/would look like and then do a gap analysis and plan.
However that unbiassed assessment isn't going to be unbiassed if we pre-decide that schools are what works best for everyone.

jami1974

I think we need to revisit the purpose of education – especially as automation increases. The original notions of social control or creating effective parts to fit in our economic machine don’t seem so relevant to me.

We also then need a mandate for that... or clear opt outs.
Those who don't want social engineering on their children and pay tax should have a clear return on their investment no to mention those who don't have kids and pay tax.

It's a pity you didn't get taught to write more concisely. Did the teachers used to always leave a TL:DR on all your work 🙂

kerley

It’s a pity you didn’t get taught to write more concisely. Did the teachers used to always leave a TL:DR on all your work

The answer to you was 23 words.

Well done, try and stick to that from now on. Your answer was also crap but we will work on that in your next lesson.