[Closed] Personal value of school

Which makes you question WTF are they doing for the 2-3 years?

Teaching kids who don’t want to be factory fodder maybe.
Getting o levels as an adult is completely different to as a child, your metacognition will / should be much more advanced and therefore it is easier (INAT or scholar and didn’t particularly excel at school)

Getting o levels as an adult

Not really understanding what you mean by that?
Despite the school doing all they could to prevent me taking O levels I did them at 16 like everyone else. I don't think I was particularly more "adult" than most of the year??

Primary school about 3years in I think. "Today kids we are making fathers day cards" "mines dead" "oh you need to do maths"

So I did, I added one to every maths question for what seems like months but was probably only a week, drove the teacher nuts though...school kind on carried on like that until eventually I was told I wasnt welcome at sixth form so I moved schools and started to be believed in..got more A's at A level than GCSE's.

How the **** I ended up being a teacher I am not really sure. Teachers are all ****s, suppose I fit in.

as i've posted before. My son is TG, came out a year or so ago. He is totally alienated from former life, friends, hobbies. At home he barely leaves his room. School is the only constant for him. Although he has issues there it's not the school it's other parents' kids that are the problem. (I make that point, because I firmly believe that while the school can do what it can, in the end if the kids are little ****s the parents need to know and deal with it as much as the school).

When we were lockdowned and remote learning, it was abysmal. He needs the structure and normality of going to school.

How do I balance the mental health aspect of that normality against the virus risk, which we are managing as best we can (not seeing grandparents, etc.)  A very significant risk of harm or death (yes, he is on 'suicide / self harm watch' and when he just wants to go out for a walk for a bit my heart is pounding until the door opens again) against a potential risk from the virus?

You might think I'm an idiot for letting him go to school based on your very bad experiences / your situation, but I'm barely exaggerating when I say it's helping to keep him alive right now.

I wasn't a huge fan of Primary School in the late 70's early 80's - my one lasting memory was of getting a telling off because they thought my Mom had done my home work because it was punctuated correctly. My Mom was ace at written english so she'd been teaching me punctuation since I could write - unlike the school system. Mom went into the school and explained all this to the Teacher....
I got bored towards the end of Primary School and spent most afternoons of the last term stood outside the classroom for one reason or another - I just didn't find it engaging.

Secondary School on the other hand was brilliant. I felt like I learnt loads - especially when we started Science and Engineering I really engaged with those subjects.
(pure)Maths has always baffled me so it took me 2 attempts to pass that - although if the same equation/method was thrown into a science or engineering scenario I had no problems working them out!!

Secondary school was also where I made long lasting friendships, decisions about career and future.

I keep telling my 14yo lad that Secondary School is where he can shape his future - It's all in his hands.

I am one of the fortunate ones who loved school. I was in the first year of fully comprehensive education in Hampshire, so went to what had been a secondary modern in a semi-rural setting(it isn’t now!)instead of taking the eleven plus. We were the first cohort of completely mixed ability kids in the school and the teachers took great pains to encourage us all. I can still remember being taught about the corn laws by a charismatic and enthusiastic history teacher. I also learned woodwork, metalwork, home economics as it was then as well as sciences & maths. I use skills I learned in each of those subjects every day. The only subjects I didn’t like were languages.
It didn’t have a sixth form so I went to a sixth form college. Three of the subjects I took at A level were great, but maths was taught appallingly badly for my teaching group so I can see how a bad teacher can affect your life afterward as I didn’t do well and so didn’t study engineering as I had wanted to and did a product design degree instead.
So to sum up, I was lucky I guess.

Unless you are doing a vocational degree most uni courses are not about the content. They are about learning to learn, to research, to argue a point, to fail, to jump through hoops without touching the sides. To learn to do group work and be collaborative. Secondary education is pretty much the same only at a lower level.

We can all remember a shed load of nonsense we were made to do. Some of it was indeed nonsense. But some of it was a vehicle to learning in a broader context regardless of if you were aware of the actual point or not.

If you have access to your early primary school exercise books go have a read. Then imagine that person putting together an application letter for a job with you. Somewhere along the line you learnt some skillz. You also learnt that Terry in your class is an utter **** and when you get to choose your clan in a future life you are sure as hell that Terry and any other **** that looks and acts like him is not going to be in it.

It would be impossible for me to have the career I have, and therefore the life I and my family have, without the education I’ve received.

So yeah, as far as I’m concerned, school is invaluable.

Not really understanding what you mean by that?

Apologies skim read your op and thought you had got your o levels when working post school.

You might think I’m an idiot for letting him go to school based on your very bad experiences / your situation, but I’m barely exaggerating when I say it’s helping to keep him alive right now.

Not at all if that is their decision.

My brother went to the same school as me and didn't hate it as much as I did.
My son doesn't hate school ...

The issue I see is to an extent the (non) recognition of children for whom school is a living hell and/or are unable to learn in that environment.

I initially went to a secondary school that I hated with a passion. I became depressed, ran away from home, then changed to a new school after a few months of what I can only describe as darkness. Then it was like night vs day. The new school was just a lot kinder in general, and it was in a modern building, whereas the previous one was dark with tiny windows and a strong emphasis on discipline.
I don't know what would have happened to me otherwise. I stayed on for sixth form and did well academically at the new place. But I think it really comes down to feeling at home somewhere. My father refused to see there was a problem - he is naturally avoidant - and it wasn't until I said I'm not going back that things improved. Ironic now as all he does is complain about going to the wrong school himself and feeling he has underachieved in life because of it.

The issue I see is to an extent the (non) recognition of children for whom school is a living hell and/or are unable to learn in that environment.

Recognition isnt the issue the issue is having any different provision for them

Recognition isnt the issue the issue is having any different provision for them

Very true. School refusers either take up untold amount of resources or are completely ignored. Nether is sustainable.

Recognition isnt the issue the issue is having any different provision for them

Very true. School refusers either take up untold amount of resources or are completely ignored. Nether is sustainable.

Huh, all I needed was a copy of the syllabus, library and examination hall?

Huh, all I needed was a copy of the syllabus, library and examination hall?

That's you, with your individual experience, which is not necessarily the same as everyone else's.

Huh, all I needed was a copy of the syllabus, library and examination hall?

If I may say so that is an incredibly self orientated response that probably needs a bit more thinking through.

AA

How the * I ended up being a teacher I am not really sure. Teachers are all *, suppose I fit in.

I think that's missing the point ... some teachers are just shit but the majority are just fine for what many/most of their students need and some are undoubtedly excellent for many.

Three of the subjects I took at A level were great, but maths was taught appallingly badly for my teaching group so I can see how a bad teacher can affect your life afterward

and I guess the issue is one bad one can screw up the entire thing

the issue is having any different provision for them

By which I mean not involving schools or teachers... not making provision in school.

That’s you, with your individual experience, which is not necessarily the same as everyone else’s.

Ummm.. that's the subject.
What part is so difficult to see?

a) Some kids thrive in school
b) Some kids manage despite
c) Some kids are made ill by school

We probably have different ideas as to the percentages of a,b,c but surely you can see many kids just manage anyway but would manage as well or better without school and some can't manage at all in school but can manage perfectly well without it

Not at all if that is their decision.

It's not. It's mine. But as a parent you have to make decisions that are in their interests.

He'd not go and would stay in his room continuously. But equally, he'd rather not wake up at all tomorrow. Do I let him make that decision?

If I made say so that is an incredibly self orientated response that probably needs a bit more thinking through.

As I said ...

The issue I see is to an extent the (non) recognition of children for whom school is a living hell and/or are unable to learn in that environment.

Total outsider here (bar own experience and that of being a parent) but this international lurgy I keep hearing about does make me wonder if there's a chance to design education a bit differently?

Working at home will be much more the norm with people spread out all over the place, with far less regimentation than was once the case. I know schools will have moved on from what I remember (70s comps: tough and frankly rubbish), but you still get a pretty institutional vibe. And I realise that it won't be easy for many kids to educate from home, given all kinds of inequalities in domestic circs which the pandemic has just exacerbated. But, if you were designing an education system from scratch would you come up with schools like the ones we have? Or something really quite different?

(Perhaps not given a main function of schools is to keep kids off the street, institutionalise them a bit and occupy they whilst their parents work...)

Do I let him make that decision?

You're a bit stuffed either way ... but one of those lets them make the decision later and one doesn't.

Ummm.. that’s the subject.
What part is so difficult to see?

Then... what's your point?

I came to a pretty early realisation, probably as soon as I was able to read books for myself, that education was my only route out of a life of council estate poverty in a town that was in the middle of being actively oppressed by the Government of the day.

School is brilliant. Free access to a world of infinite choices, should you make the effort.

I tell my kids this every day.

One listens, one does not, the third swings wildly between the two.

and I guess the issue is one bad one can screw up the entire thing

Yes, but I don’t regret the choice I made in the slightest, I could have stayed on to resit maths to improve on my E grade to go with the two A grades and a C grade I had in my other a-levels but it may well have been a blessing as it made me realise the more creative and practical avenue was for me. In fact I could even say that it was the understanding of how not to teach a subject from the perspective of a student encouraged me to take up teaching post degree level.

The methods and ways in which schools work are not really for me and I didn't do that well in that system.
In an ideal world we would separate kids out based on what sort of schooling would suit them best (academic, non-academic, those who suit learn/revise/test, those who don't etc,) but that would be near to impossible to actually achieve within current funding and peoples generally fixed way of thinking about schooling.

As I said …

So your solution to the (non) recognition of children for whom school is a living hell and/or are unable to learn in that environment. is to provided them/their parents a copy of the syllabus, library and examination hall?. And that is a generic response that will work for every child that hates school and misses years of conventional education regardless of their educational needs AND their parent's ability to help/educate?

other than reading, writing and basic maths so much useless rubbish gets taught at secondary schools that will be no use to vast majority of people, would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc

Yeah, secondary school and uni were utterly worthless for me (in terms of learning - years of free time at uni to dedicate to the gym were appreciated). I’d already realised that teachers were a lot thicker than me in primary school.

If you want to learn something, just learn it. More true now that the whole world’s knowledge is at your finger tips.

Obviously the baby-sitting aspect is useful.

wiring a plug

Makes me laugh that this is back in the new Gove led GCSE science when it was rightly removed from the last version as plugs that need wiring are not found these days. Back whn I was a kid we had to wire plugs all the time, not done a single one in at least 15 years that I can recall.ust finding a plug you can unscrew is rare.

would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc

We are teachers not parents and crucially we dont choose whats in the exams

would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc

Back in the day, this was called Social and Vocational Skills and you could do an O level in it at our school.

It was the only O level that some kids ever got.

so much useless rubbish gets taught at secondary schools that will be no use to vast majority of people

What you learn, at school and elsewhere, as a young person, is secondary to developing the skills to learn, and develop, in my opinion.

Yeah, secondary school and uni were utterly worthless for me (in terms of learning – years of free time at uni to dedicate to the gym were appreciated). I’d already realised that teachers were a lot thicker than me in primary school.

Clearly you missed lot of crucial things growing up.

What you learn, at school and elsewhere, as a young person, is secondary to developing the skills to learn, and develop, in my opinion.

Amen to that!

TG?

The thing is doing well academically at school is no longer a guarantee of upward social mobility. Some of the best well off people I know did ok at school but then found a passion in life, one set up a record studio, another got into property development. There are so many well qualified accountants and lawyers who are just doing it to retain status and money, but are pretty depressed deep down.
That's why I support education systems which put less emphasis on grades and exams and more on experiences, like the Duke of Edinburgh awards. I discovered perhaps too late in life that I loved mountains and rock climbing, but I didn't start until my late 20s. If I'd had the chance to try as a teenager it could have opened up a new world for me. We are all a bunch of battery chickens these days, being examined constantly at school, then performance managed at work. Target culture is frankly crap.

And that is a generic response that will work for every child that hates school and misses years of conventional education regardless of their educational needs AND their parent’s ability to help/educate?

Nope it's one response. (Personal experience value of school). Again what have the parents ability to help/educate got to do with it? You seem stuck in a paradigm that kids need an adult to teach them academic stuff.

Take French** for example ... tens of millions people speak it without a formal education in it.
they just get exposed to it... (I chose this especially)

Working at home will be much more the norm with people spread out all over the place, with far less regimentation than was once the case.

Certainly over the last decade almost all my work related learning has been remote.

But, if you were designing an education system from scratch would you come up with schools like the ones we have? Or something really quite different?

That's my thoughts....
**Back to French
So as it happens I used to score 4.5/5 on the AF French test (no mystery I lived there) and my kid just decided to learn French. For what reason I don't know.... he doesn't want any help, the only thing I did was approve Duolingo.

transgender

Still struggling to see the point of this post....

handybar

That’s why I support education systems which put less emphasis on grades and exams and more on experiences, like the Duke of Edinburgh awards. I discovered perhaps too late in life that I loved mountains and rock climbing, but I didn’t start until my late 20s

It's certainly an option ... and I also share the passion for outdoors but I wouldn't thin it suits everyone any more than the battery farm does

Still struggling to see the point of this post….

Um some people who's job depends on running battery farms for kids requested it should be a separate thread

What you learn, at school and elsewhere, as a young person, is secondary to developing the skills to learn, and develop, in my opinion

I rang graduate recruitment at our place for a bit getting graduate engineers onto a training programme.
There were (very generically) three sorts. Folks who had got tired of being on the tools and gone and got a degree, folks from the old school ivory towers red brick places and folks from the former polys.

Massive generalisation time.

The last good had the best knowledge and had probably been best taught. They were completely useless to me though as although they had lots of knowledge they had never had to learn either to think and create knowledge or to apply it. The former two groups had.

The tools and towers groups approached things in different ways but were equally capable and far better in terms of what I was looking for.

The former polys folk would have been better served either by some time on the tools to better understand themselves and how knowledge can be applied or being taught less and sent off to learn more.

Still struggling to see the point of this post….

it should be a separate thread

Seems interesting to me already. More varied contributions when the weekend hits… hopefully.

Also… ignore the thread if you don’t see the point in it! Basic forum use skills.

Nope it’s one response. (Personal experience value of school). Again what have the parents ability to help/educate got to do with it? You seem stuck in a paradigm that kids need an adult to teach them academic stuff.

Take French** for example … tens of millions people speak it without a formal education in it.
they just get exposed to it… (I chose this especially)

You, I am afraid, are rather deluded and/or with a very narrow band of vision based on your own ability to motivate/educate yourself and a very small anecdotal group of individuals. Sadly the real world is a lot more rich and varied.

Um some people who’s job depends on running battery farms for kids requested it should be a separate thread

Riiiiight, gotcha - thought there might be something of substance to discuss, rather than just a slagging of mainstream education. I'll leave you to it.

Seems interesting to me already. More varied contributions when the weekend hits… hopefully.

Great, enjoy.

Also… ignore the thread if you don’t see the point in it! Basic forum use skills.

Gotcha, I'm out. 🙂

Unless you are doing a vocational degree most uni courses are not about the content. They are about learning to learn, to research, to argue a point, to fail, to jump through hoops without touching the sides. To learn to do group work and be collaborative. Secondary education is pretty much the same only at a lower level.

This is what I got out of university as well, something that could have been taught to me when I was 11. Although of course, it was also about content as I studied and now work within a science based discipline.

It would be impossible for me to have the career I have, and therefore the life I and my family have, without the education I’ve received.

I on the other hand, still managed to go to university - then taught myself an entirely new although indirectly related subject and have managed to receive an offer for a masters in that new subject.

I hated every ****ing minute of secondary.

I had a friend, he had two siblings and all went to different schools which was very unusual. It turns out his parents had deliberately picked schools which they thought would fit the personality of each child. A lot of school time is just messing around, which suited me, the exams weren't that difficult and I would always catch up by cramming for a few weeks before. If I had been in a more disciplinarian school then I would have rebelled. I suspect this is the reason behind a lot of expulsions, as well as personal problems at home.
We have to do lots of personality tests at work and apparently they do work, I don't know if they could be used for kids to help them choose the best secondary school or at least inform their decision. E.g. creative kids tend to do well in friendly inclusive schools.

I got a note this week from a pupil which I wish I could take a picture of and post it. Needless to say I don't recognise the person the writer is talking about. But I wish I were that person.

I do know a little of their situation and because of that try to make sure they're ok. I care not a rat's arse about their academic ability (low by most standards) but I'd like them to escape their current situation.

It would be impossible for me to have the career I have, and therefore the life I and my family have, without the education I’ve received.

So yeah, as far as I’m concerned, school is invaluable.

This.

I went to sh*t school, and got 3 GCSES. i went to Art college at 16 (OND) and technical college at 18 (HND) then ****ed around for a few years before getting Maths/Engiish GCSEs an evening classes and going back to Uni at 31 to do and Engineering degree (got a first)

My kids (daughters aged 10 and 13) want to be a Vet and a Media Lawyer respectively so they need to work hard at School if they've to have any chance of achieving this.

My wife is also a Science Teacher, who has a science degree, a PGCE and an MEd.

If we didn't need the Money from working full time we'd both study more - i'm a great believer in life-long learning and if circumstances were right i'd jump at doing an MSc.

The way i see it - is a Degree is a level of education which gives you the tools (research/report writing/organisation) which can be applied to many career paths.

So yes, we value education in this house.

I value education as well, I'm sure Steve does - what I didn't and still don't value was my secondary school education.

Hated primary secondary technical college and university....

I am a know it all... apparently or it could be down to the fact that i read more than my teachers and lecturers and asked them questions they couldn't answer

I loved uni, that was the first time I felt teachers/lecturers got me and the first time I felt like I belonged somewhere. I dropped out of my A-Levels for various reasons and then a year later managed to convince a university to give me a place on a foundation degree, it was the best choice I've ever made despite A-levels being free. I'm eternally grateful to the course tutor who showed me around the campus, then took my application seriously, then stuck me in some extra academic skills classes and some more advanced maths modules in the engineering department.

My personal experience was of not liking school. Asked if I wanted to leave Xmas of S5 as I was not passing anything. Passed everything to spite some teachers. Failed standard grade maths and when asked why I said because my teacher said I would. I passed with A next year,S5, to show I could.

Still hatebannart teacher who when I was in primary 5 asked about colours. She said there are primary and secondary colours, what are the next one's? My answer" university colours" bitch laughed at me. Still hate her 40 years later.

Yeah that's what I got from my English teacher as well, I was told I was going to get D's - all my coursework pieces were A/A*s and I ended up with a good solid A. Yeah, **** you Miss haha.

Rant over.

I was told I was going to get D’s – all my coursework pieces were A/A*s and I ended up with a good solid A. Yeah, **** you Miss haha.

You do realise thats why she told you that dont you?

I once bet a kid £20 he wouldnt get an A* at a level, best £20 I ever spent.

Yeah, **** you Miss haha.

And you think you had the last laugh? 🙂 It's almost like the teacher, working with a lazy boy (weren't we all?), worked out that stick rather than carrot was the required medicine for you 😉

edit - 2 teachers, identical responses within a second of each other. It's almost like it's a 'method'. Who knew!

so much useless rubbish gets taught at secondary schools that will be no use to vast majority of people

Maybe, but what you find rubbish, others find hugely useful.

I do think there is a debate to be had about what is taught at school, I'd argue that learning about Henry XII is less useful than learning about tax, and finances, and how to keep out of debt. I also think that teaching people to be critical and question things is increasingly important in the modern world.

Anyway, back to the OP.

I get the impression you had a crap time at school, like many others did, and that was no fun for you. I didn't have a great time myself for other reasons so I do understand.
The education system is designed to work for the majority, and it does. There are always going to be people it doesn't work for, and with the millions going to school, even a small percentage is still a big number. The challenge is that there is simply not the time, money or infrastructure to put an individual plan together for every person.
I needed that when I was at school, didn't get it, and it's left me some challenging traits in the workplace as an adult.
School is also a safe place for some. Not always in the extreme "I don't get beaten at school" side, but it's often a place they can interact with others, form ideas and find themselves, something some kids can't do at school.
And (going back to your posts on the Covid thread, is why I and others are so keen to see kids at school.

I was lucky, I enjoyed school but was a bit lazy. I did well without really trying, which made university rather a shock. In this time my elder brother died and my parents got divorced but it didn't affect me very much.

My younger brother did go off the rails a bit, joined a evangelical christian group and went round telling everyone that my elder brother was in hell. He screwed up his A-levels and degree but is better now (45 years later).

My elder brother had been to the same school. He loved it until the 6th form when he suddenly couldn't stand it and refused to go. The school were very good and let him self study and sit the exams. He did OK, then dropped out of university after a year. He joined the RAF which he really loved but sadly ended up dead 2 years later.

In summary, our experience of school was all different.

I totally see where the OP is coming from school was a STRUGGLE for me. Had similar traumatic childhood and left with very little (1 GCSE above a C which was graphic design) and finished a-levels with even less (read zero a-levels above a D). To this day I still don't have a GCSE in math or english. However for kids that "get it" school can teach them a lot and for many sets them up for life getting them into a good college, uni then job. The question is how do schools catch the rest.

I didn't do anything of note in school until I returned to college at 22/23 to do a btec in Multimedia where I met a three AMAZING lectures who basically gave me a shed load of confidence and I ended up at uni with a first in graphic designer and have been a professional designer for a bit over 10 years now.

School can seem like a factory but I think thats mainly because like the NHS its horrifically under resourced so teachers don't have the time to drag every kid through the year and some (like myself) just get left behind, its a sad fact. It isn't that kids are stupid they just see stuff different and require a way of learning school (at least in my day) just couldn't / didn't provide.

So yes, we value education in this house.

The question isn't do you value education its do you value school the two are very different things. One is simply a vehicle for the other. There are multiple ways to get an education.

Strangely one of the most qualified people I know didn't do brilliantly at school and dropped out of our college engineering course to go and install cable TV......
Through his shear enthusiasm for his job and being able to pick stuff up he progressed through that company and another then went in to part time lecturing...
He's now an assistant Professor with god knows how many Degrees, Masters and a PHD's at a Uni teaching networking and security.

I was lucky, I enjoyed school but was a bit lazy. I did well without really trying, which made university rather a shock

Same as me, my issue at school was that I was clever and found everything easy, so I was rarely pushed, and on the few occasions I was, I did sod all until the exams which I invariably got A's for. This was fine until 2nd year at college, and certainly uni, where I was well and truly found out.

The issue is that the lack of need to work hard has stuck with me and I can be a right lazy sod at work.

And you think you had the last laugh? 🙂 It’s almost like the teacher, working with a lazy boy (weren’t we all?), worked out that stick rather than carrot was the required medicine for you 😉

edit – 2 teachers, identical responses within a second of each other. It’s almost like it’s a ‘method’. Who knew!

No, she didn't like me. I was doing well before she gave me the predicted D's. The head of Maths, when I asked to be put in the top set essentially told me to do one against the advice of my very nice middle set Maths teacher. Subsequently I got something ridiculous like 97 percent in my final paper.

Lots of the teachers were complete tools, but I do realise that was partly down to it being a rural comp with a bit of a villagey vibe to it where teachers would take a disliking to you if they didn't like your family.

The foundation degree that led into my undergraduate was brilliant, unlike the above posters experience... it was designed in a way that eased you into how to study at university. So I didn't have the same issue of being in for a shock that the others here who swanned through school had.

No, she didn’t like me

Cant think why, you sound lovely...

lunge

School is also a safe place for some. Not always in the extreme “I don’t get beaten at school” side, but it’s often a place they can interact with others, form ideas and find themselves, something some kids can’t do at school.
And (going back to your posts on the Covid thread, is why I and others are so keen to see kids at school.

See, I'm not saying it's not fine or brilliant for some.
Seperate to the Covid thread (for now) is why you say "keen to see kids"
What about the ones who don't benefit or the ones who actively have MH issues caused by school. (Several already on the thread)

Why "punish" them so the other group can "benefit"?

The education system is designed to work for the majority, and it does. There are always going to be people it doesn’t work for, and with the millions going to school, even a small percentage is still a big number. The challenge is that there is simply not the time, money or infrastructure to put an individual plan together for every person.

As I said earlier - there are 3 big groups.
a) Works for brilliantly
b) Manage Despite
c) Works terribly

If you group a+b then it's probably a majority but if we group b+c its probably very significant.
How we distribute that ? Where is the watershed in b?

and I think handybar also says something important... even if that makes it more complex.
handybar

I had a friend, he had two siblings and all went to different schools which was very unusual. It turns out his parents had deliberately picked schools which they thought would fit the personality of each child.

I know my kid is happy enough seeing friends etc. but purely academically he could do far "better" outside school left to his own resources and a syllabus/exam questions.

If we bring in Covid then what was different in the first 4 days of this week to this afternoon?
Kiddo is home now and in the last 7 in his class after more failed to turn up today (no explanation given yet)
He didn't even fall off on Saturday so no lost opportunity for the teachers to call us in again over bruises and grazes.

I’d argue that learning about Henry XII is less useful than learning about tax, and finances,

you can make the argument if you want, but it’s a really really stupid one.

The question isn’t do you value education its do you value school the two are very different things. One is simply a vehicle for the other. There are multiple ways to get an education.

^^^^

This is the bit seems so hard to get across and i think the more on the "inside" they harder it is to see an alternative.

For bizarre reasons my kid picked up duolingo and is smashing French. He doesn't want help ... he's doing great and communicating with his friend who left his school back in France.

He's always resisted any languages despite his mother being a language teacher by training yet suddenly he made more progress in a few weeks than entire terms in Spanish and Italian and his mother has given up teaching him Polish, he's just not interested.

AA

Cant think why, you sound lovely…

Do you appreciate many of us had very traumatic experiences?

I struggled with school, We were ill matched and It did at times make me ill. Being the son of a teacher did not help. I still have friends from school though, almost 40 years on, and for that i'm grateful. Always amazes me how many people breezed through it and don't seem to understand how negative some of us found it.

AA

Cant think why, you sound lovely…

Do you appreciate many of us had very traumatic experiences?

Lots of people have

For bizarre reasons my kid picked up duolingo and is smashing French. He doesn’t want help

This example you keep using is making me smirk just a little.

You have posted about the fixations others have in children NEEDING adults to construct their learning, then you give this as an example of kids sticking it to the man and doing it alone. Apart from of course he isn't. He's using a platform constructed by adults, using well founded learning pedagogy to structure his learning with rewards and praise and continual appraisal and feedback. The order the content is delivered and pace of learning is not coincidental, but carefully constructed by an adult. And (shreek) duolingo employs actual teachers to put their material together. And another crazy thing - not all teaching in a modern classroom is chalk and talk teacher led either. Materials either generated by the school or bought in used to construct a pupil centred learning experience is a very common occurrence. It's not so very different.

But if you think your child is learning French without adult endeavour you are mistaken. They are just not live in the room throwing bits of chalk at his head (any child pre the 90s will possibly recognise this scenario more than a duolingo style learning resource!).

Big problem from my experience was that most of my teachers (from my school days) had zero life knowledge, never excelled in / were that passionate about their subject, didn’t like conflict and we’re not that inspiring. There were always exceptions to the rule and those people were gold, but they were exceptions.

The problem for many is they never get to experience a a good teacher or great education. If the same is the case for parents / whoever is looking after you, then continues in workplace then life is hard.

Never too late and hopefully tech will change that. You can literally watch videos on YT / other sources from some of the best uni’s in the world for free at any age. Both 12 year olds and 80 year olds benefitting right now.

would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc

Wired many plugs lately? I think the last one I did was actually still at school. It's been a legal requirement for appliances sold in the UK to have preinstalled mains plugs since the mid-90s and most of them are sealed / moulded units these days.

I take your point though, "life skills" should be more of a thing.

That's not to devalue other subjects, what might seem pointless to me might be invaluable for someone else of vice versa. The argument that

... learning about Henry XII is less useful than learning about tax, and finances, and how to keep out of debt.

... is bogus (and you clearly didn't anyway because you've invented five extra Henries 😊 ) because whilst it might've been pointless to you and it sure as shit bored me to tears also, someone else in class might've gone on to become a leading historian, really really good at pub quizzes, or understand Roman numerals.

But these things absolutely should be taught. Not necessarily how to avoid debt - spoiler, you almost certainly can't - but how to manage good debt and not get yourself into trouble.

How to cook basic meals, boys and girls alike. The cookery I did at high school was part of "general education" where we did six lessons of a Thing then went on to something else, they cycled sex ed in with this. After my six weeks in the kitchen I'd learned that it was more efficient to boil water in a kettle than in a pan in the oven, and how to make Chocolate Rice Krispies. As for the next subject it was willy goes in, baby comes out, by the way we're in the middle of the AIDS crisis so if you're going paddling then wear your wellies.

Expanding from that, how to maintain a home generally. From setting up direct debits to choosing an energy supplier to changing the filter on the vacuum cleaner to assembling flat-pack furniture to putting up a set of shelves. To, hell, raising a child.

Logic and critical thinking, things like confirmation bias. This has to be, well, critical these days surely, with the explosion of social media and targeted propaganda advertising and memes. How do you know who to believe?

Environmental studies maybe? Back at my school this probably would've fallen under Geography along with arable farming in Africa or something, but it's a life science. Why recycling is important, sort of thing.

There's probably many, many more. This discussion probably merits another splinter thread from this one.

But if you think your child is learning French without adult endeavour you are mistaken. They are just not live in the room throwing bits of chalk at his head (any child pre the 90s will possibly recognise this scenario more than a duolingo style learning resource!).

Somewhat coincidentally, this was my French class. The teacher was basically Atticus Finch with chalk, he could knock wasps out of the air with the stuff.

This discussion probably merits another splinter thread from this one.

And I suspect would require a few contributors who went to school in this millenium 😉 Come on grandpa, tell us about the war too!

would be handy if they taught far more useful stuff that most people will at some point need to know, like mortgages, pensions, wiring a plug, changing a fuse, fixing a puncture on a car etc etc

No one ever taught me these I had education and that enabled me to learn about it myself.

Ok i think my brother taught me how to change a wheel on my car but other than that.....

This example you keep using is making me smirk just a little.

You have posted about the fixations others have in children NEEDING adults to construct their learning, then you give this as an example of kids sticking it to the man and doing it alone.

You completely missed the point or picked up the wrong end of the stick at least.
The point is that he doesn't want or need a teacher/adult present when he's learning.

You do realise millions of French kids learn French to a decent level with zero structured learning? (and millions of Germans learn German etc.) the reason for this example is because "what about parents who can't help".

Who made the platform is irrelevant to him, what is relevant is he doesn't have a teacher/adult and he can do it all himself.

He did the same with his SATS, he requested no intervention or help from myself or his mother other than past papers and the marking scheme for them. He was predicted crap grades and got 4 questions partially wrong in the whole lot, 2 of which he could have done if he'd bothered.

He's not Cytech qualified either but he can build and maintain a bike!
So far as I know many frame builders and designers aren't either! They just taught themselves.

My mother was secretary do you really think she helped me get A's in Maths, Chem, Phys, Geography, Geology ? I'll give you English and I ended up with a B in History?
I just got the books and learned it, did some past papers and took the O levels.
Not every kid or person wants teaching ... or a teacher to be there they learn better by themselves.

Secondary school was mixed for me. Academically very good at O level when it was remembering stuff and regurgitating it in exams, but got pushed down the "useful/science" route rather than subjects I enjoyed - I was top of the year in two subjects I loved but was urged not to take them at O level. That meant that when it came to more self motivated study at A level my heart wasn't in it, didn't do the work, didn't get the grades, didn't get the uni I wanted, hence my first big mental health wobble and I dropped out within weeks.

However, my secondary school did do practical life stuff like loans and finances and job interviews (mid 1980s). So I understood how to use my (still good) grades and experience to get a job, which led to a really good career, which led to money that enabled me to make wise choices early on that I am still enjoying benefits of now, 30+ years later. Though the degree I did in my 30s is **** all use.

Sadly, the right school at the right time and place for each kid to maximise their opportunities is very unlikely to be found for every one. More rounded views of education will help, and apprenticeships for nonacademic kids are great.

But there is a danger in slagging off the whole system because it has failed you as an individual. It may well have worked for many others.

Not every kid or person wants teaching … or a teacher to be there they learn better by themselves.

He sounds brill (he really does). If you could just use clone him a few bazillion times and we can do away with the whole damn thing.

Or.....he does not sound that special (he does actually) - there are literally hundreds of thousands of kids in mainstream education mixed ability classes who are (with the consent and encouragement of the teachers) doing the leg work for themselves only loosely supervised/encouraged whilst millions of others need way more handholding. Already happening right across the country, nay world.

Choose whichever one suits your narative best.

Secondary school was awful for me personally, the teachers just did not have control of classes and those of us who wanted to learn suffered as a result. Parents separated just as my GCSEs started, we lost the house and had to move into a caravan. I really withdrew into myself during this time as I desperately tried to conceal this fact from my classmates. They all found out anyway and were quite hurtful with it. Completely failed my GCSEs and developed a personality trait that I can't shake.

Fast forward to college, having retaken my GCSEs I managed to get onto a BTEC in engineering. What a waste of time, tutors never taught us and essentially we were confined to a computer room for two years, we did zero hands on stuff. Although I passed with distinctions, I didn't feel equipped to be an engineer upon leaving and subsequently decided against uni.

I work in a job I like now but come into contact with engineers frequently and I am always left feeling inferior which I hate. I am 28 and would love a career and not just a job but am not sure how to go about it.

Cougar

Logic and critical thinking, things like confirmation bias. This has to be, well, critical these days surely, with the explosion of social media and targeted propaganda advertising and memes. How do you know who to believe?
.....

There’s probably many, many more. This discussion probably merits another splinter thread from this one.

Yeah, that is a whole thread by itself!
The Q's though are who, how and where?

because whilst it might’ve been pointless to you and it sure as shit bored me to tears also, someone else in class might’ve gone on to become a leading historian, really really good at pub quizzes, or understand Roman numerals.

Same Q's as above.
Why do these require a physical school other than employing teachers?
(Disclaimer that's the only income in our house ATM)

convert

And (shreek) duolingo employs actual teachers to put their material together.

So perhaps this is the future, no need to go into a physical school for many?
They can learn about future King Henry's or a language or many other fascinating things.

Teachers can be employed in the gig economy like the rest of us?