Mrs_OAB pulled into a carpark, read private and warning sign, and left again within 30 seconds. This is NFU Mutual, Penrith next to McDonalds. A known spot, with it's own Facebook group.
We now have a Notice to Owner to ID driver. As a resident of Scotland, Section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply. So I am not telling them. 😎
Following the FB and advice on Pepipoo, I contacted DVLA to say that the company was using DVLA data to in effect ignore law (Scotland resident) and industry practice (10 minute Consideration Period) and extort money.
Interestingly the DVLA have responded, and while they agree with me, no-one has asked for data on our vehicle.
So where did they get my details from?
Interestingly the DVLA have responded, and while they agree with me, no-one has asked for data on our vehicle.
So where did they get my details from?
That is interesting. I suppose it is possible the DVLA are mistaken? I don't know if the parking agencies get a bulk discount - but I seem to remember that it was quite expensive (£4?) to request the keeper's details as an individual. It struck me at the time that if someone else could build a list at 1/2 the cost they could make a lot more money... ...and that collectively insurers probably have data that is at least as up-to-date as DVLA.
You could ask NFU - SAR's are now free - but then you might be acknowledging their letter.
You could ask NFU
According to them the landlord is responsible - this from Facebook group.
The letter from parking management company states they have used DVLA...
SAR to the parking company
I think so. Time to go full TJ on them 😉
I don't think the Edinburgh defence is permissible in law, even under Scottish law.
I love this place sometimes. Well done you lot. Kick em in the knackers.
Consideration period only if you're invited to park (sounds like you were) 5 mins if it's patrons only.
Follow the process, stick an appeal in, escalate to the independent appeals body if they reject (it'll cost them if they lose and if your wife was really was only there for 30 seconds they will). If they then try and take you to court (and some will) it should be pretty much open and shut in your favour.
Just remember the parking cos have seen every excuse in the book, getting smart won't help, they often chose who to take through the process based in how arsey you are. Which parking company? They are not all the same. SAR will only piss them off, save that for afterwards. DVLA are pretty hot on GDPR so doubt you'll get anywhere pursuing that.
Bottom line is if she parked where she shouldn't pay up, if it was as you describe don't be a hero, just challenge it properly.
ANPR or attendant?
DVLA are pretty hot on GDPR
And have several decades experience in being institutionally incompetent.
Bottom line is if she parked where she shouldn’t pay up, if it was as you describe don’t be a hero, just challenge it properly.
She didn't park. She pulled into a carpark, turned off engine, read a sign through windscreen, started up and drove off.
And it is correct - I don't have to comply with the Freedoms of Information.
We will later this year, but for now we don't.
I have found quoting their own regs back at them asking them to provide evidence to support their right to invoice you. Ine of the questions I’ve asked that made them go a way was please show evidence from the owner of the land you have permission to charge. Many don’t because they have a contract with the building management company, not the company that owns the land so its not enforceable. It may well be the same people who own both companies but the law states it has to be the land owner who gives permission.
She didn’t park. She pulled into a carpark, turned off engine, read a sign through windscreen, started up and drove off.
In which case no case to answer. You may be in Scotland but last time I checked Penrith wasn't. Be interesting to know how that works.
I have found quoting their own regs back at them asking them to provide evidence to support their right to invoice you.
Might work with some of the smaller companies but the bigger ones have their own in-house lawyers and know what the rules are, they aren't that stupid.
In which case no case to answer.
There'sa thing in law for this called Consideration Period. Even in the companies own trade body/best practice scheme it confirms this is there. Apparently usually taken as up to 10 mins and no leaving car other than to read sign.
Matt I'm agreeing with you, she shouldn't have got a PCN, consideration period only applies when there is an entreat to park, time to read the details of the contract you are entering into, if there is no entreat to park the grace period is 5 mins. Still not relevant in this situation. How did she get the PCN, on the windscreen or in the post? Just interested how they are justifying the PCN, what evidence they have. Does sound like extremely scummy behaviour, gives the rest of the industry a bad name. I found the Facebook group you alluded to.
If it is the same place as reported in this post NFU Parking then it looks like there is a "No Stopping" sign which apparently means they can issue a PCN immediately with no consideration period... 😮. Pretty unfair point of law if that is the case. My guess regarding ANPR is that they will just buy a copy of the database along with regular updates so DVLA will have no record of a one off search made against your particular vehicle. 🤷♂️
My guess regarding ANPR is that they will just buy a copy of the database along with regular updates
I'm pretty sure DVLA are not allowed to release personal data unless the applicant presents a valid reason. Asking for the details of every registered keeper because they might one day park in their car park shouldn't be a valid reason.
In the OP's position, as well as appealing based on the facts, I would be asking the parking company (with copy to DVLA) how they obtained your details, since DVLA deny releasing them, and pointing out that any action based on illegally obtained data is invalid (IANAL, I assume that's the case).
The other day I parked for 5 minutes in a car park that had a newly-installed camera-based parking regime. Operated by PaybyPhone. I spotted it as I was exiting and tried to register and pay. However, no many how many times I shouted "Oh! Oh! Oh! it kept repeating "zero". The keyboard entry bit crashed as well. I gave up and paid on the "wrong" reg and emailed them. The response was that I would probably get a ticket and should protest it. On top of that they charged me £1.60 when the advertised rate is £1.50.
I think I'm going to enjoy a bit of sport...
Greybeard is correct, the parking co has to apply to DVLA each time along with evidence. DVLA take a dim view of people requesting details without good cause, I.e. when someone hasn't broken the rules. You also have jump through a number of hoops before they will deal with you including being a member of BPA or the other trade body.
Big John, if the signage doesn't match the charge you've got a good case for appeal. It might not be Pay By Phone operating the car park, they often contract the phone payment service, check who the operator is. You might get away with the reg not being quite right, people enter them incorrectly all the time, zeros and Os being mixed up us common when entering a reg on a pay and display machine. Where did you park?
I’m pretty sure DVLA are not allowed to release personal data unless the applicant presents a valid reason. Asking for the details of every registered keeper because they might one day park in their car park shouldn’t be a valid reason.
Yes that would make more sense now I think about it.
Another thing to ber in mind is that these companies take court proceedings using a larely automated system and the English Money Claim Online small claims procedure.
It appears this MCOL can not be used to enforce a civil claim against a Scottish resident for an incident in England.
Parking companies havwe been known to try in on by ommitting "Scotland " from th address on the court form. So should you at any stage receice English small claims forms it can be stopped by telling them you are out of jurisdiction.
Whether they could raise a claim in the SCottish small claims system I don't know. A SCottish Sheriff dealing with an incident in England seems unlikey but IANAL etc.
The ‘pay by phone’ systems that many car parks use are utterly useless, I tried to use one yesterday in town, and it relies on text messaging or voice, and the instructions are not very clear. I tried three times without success, as I never carry cash, and in the end a lovely lady gave me £1.20 to cover the hour I needed to see my account manager in my bank. There’s no app available for the town car parks, just text. Why they can’t have a QR Code that takes you straight into a system where you just fill in appropriate fields I don’t know.
Well, I do, it’s council inertia, and lack of concern for customers.
Whether they could raise a claim in the SCottish small claims system I don’t know. A SCottish Sheriff dealing with an incident in England seems unlikey but IANAL etc.
We've a lower limit of £300 for initial claim, so even if it were within jurisdiction, it would be disallowed.
Why they can’t have a QR Code that takes you straight into a system where you just fill in appropriate fields I don’t know.
Agreed. I wasted 10 minutes of my life recently, as you walk to the parking meter there were 4 apps listed and the location code. My usual app couldn't find the location, so then I installed one of the others, which also didn't work which was annoying as the rest of the family wanted use contactless for about £10, but I wanted to use the app so we could pay half and then top up the duration remotely if we overran.
Finally looked at the front of the machine and only one of the apps on the side was displayed on the front!
As a resident of Scotland, Section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply.
What's that got to do with the price of fish? 🤔
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/section/4/enacted
The parking co can only pursue the driver. In Scotland if it wasn't the reg keeper driving you don't have to tell them who was.
In England, if certain conditions are met the reg keeper is liable if they don't name the driver.
"Don't tell them your name, Pike" 🙂
The parking co can only pursue the driver. In Scotland if it wasn’t the reg keeper driving you don’t have to tell them who was.
In England, if certain conditions are met the reg keeper is liable if they don’t name the driver.
The case or not, that's not the legislation quoted by the OP. He's not been arrested for a minor offence and had his DNA taken.
Correct. Has quoted Secion 4 not Schedule 4
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/section/56/enacted
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
The ‘pay by phone’ systems that many car parks use are utterly useless, I tried to use one yesterday in town, and it relies on text messaging or voice, and the instructions are not very clear. I tried three times without success, as I never carry cash, and in the end a lovely lady gave me £1.20 to cover the hour I needed to see my account manager in my bank. There’s no app available for the town car parks, just text.
There's totally an app, it's one of the first out of about 15 car park payment apps that I installed.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.paybyphone
You're fruit-based aren't you, dunno about that but I'd be amazed if there was an Android app and not an Apple one.
We’ve a lower limit of £300 for initial claim, so even if it were within jurisdiction, it would be disallowed.
??
Whether they could raise a claim in the SCottish small claims system I don’t know. A SCottish Sheriff dealing with an incident in England seems unlikey but IANAL etc.
I think it would be interesting to hear the Sheriff's View (and probably the Appeal Court whichever way s/he decided), but I don't see a fundamental reason - they are the correct forum for resolving disputes between say a Scottish Resident and an English Utility company. I'm not convinced the Keeper Liability doesn't apply to a Scot's Keeper whose vehicle was used in England.
“Don’t tell them your name, Pike”
So totally this.
I had email from DVLA today - my car registration has had a search. They won't say what, but they are off to contact the parking company as they are not happy with something....
– they are the correct forum for resolving disputes between say a Scottish Resident and an English Utility company. I’m not convinced the Keeper Liability doesn’t apply to a Scot’s Keeper whose vehicle was used in England.
I think you are correct. Keeper liability is by location of parking.
If it was me and I thought the ticket was unfair I would dispute it then wait for paperwork for a small claim in Scotland if it ever appeared. Obviously dispute any claim raised in England fir jurisdiction. .
Looks to me that below £300 in Simple Procedure no expenses are awarded. So worst case scenario, spend a few hours at court and pay the parking invoice if you lose.
I haven't heard of any Scottish court dealing with single ticket claims.
