[Closed] People who did not go to university are financially happier than those who did

But among 25- to 34-year-olds, 19% have no savings, and a further 30% have less than £1,000 saved. The survey found 36% had been overdrawn in the last 12 months, and 37% had taken out payday loans.

37% 😯

Some very scary stats in there.

For 'supposedly'* the 5th richest country we have some truly scary inequality out there.

* pre-Brexit, post Brexit we'll be something like 20th after a few years...

It also tried to quantify the age-old question about whether having more money really makes you that much happier. The figures suggest it does – but not by much.

The survey found that 19% of households with an income of under £15,000 were “highly satisfied” with their financial circumstances.

Not the same thing is it? You could be highly satisfied with your financial circumstances and still be deeply unhappy. Or vice versa. Same with the first bit.

Easy to blame Brexit payday loans, easy credit and the like but they wouldn't exist without a market....not everyone is using them because they're on the breadline, a huge clientele use them for the latest phones, some never ending PCP car deal or the 'need' for a new bike, tv, tablet etc etc.... People aren't prepared to wait and save for 6 months, the fashion would've prolly passed by then anyway and they'd be laughed out for being out of date.
It's easy to blame bankers, MPs etc but it's weak willed individuals obsessed with 'shiny' who are as much to blame.

Doesn't exactly paint a picture of a strong economy. Wouldn't take much of a shock to cause serious pain to millions of people.

not everyone is using them because they're on the breadline, a huge clientele use them for the latest phones, some never ending PCP car deal or the 'need' for a new bike, tv, tablet etc etc..

I'd go as far as to say that's the most common use for them.

Doesn't exactly paint a picture of a strong economy. Wouldn't take much of a shock to cause serious pain to millions of people.

Not really news that, is it?

The average cash savings held by the over-65s is £45,000

I'm off to see my parents tonight, better ask them where they're hiding it 🙂

But among 25- to 34-year-olds, 19% have no savings, and a further 30% have less than £1,000 saved. The survey found 36% had been overdrawn in the last 12 months, and 37% had taken out payday loans.

I see facts like this fairly regulary and help but think this is written by baby-boomers who just don't get it.

To get our education we took out huge loans which we are now paying back, in addition to our greatly inflated mortgages - which are taken over 35 year terms just to mean we can actually payback the huge amounts we've had to borrow. What are we supposed to save?

The situation is so different from our parents/ grandparents generations.

EDIT: I thought i'd add that school led me to believe that a degree would get me an amazing job/ lifestyle and i'd have a new porsche at 30. Well i'm 33 and i've got a 15 YO BMW - i guess thats close. 🙄 The point being i've been given unrealistic expectations of what a degree will lead to.

Personally earn a lot more now than I did when I worked pre-uni. My financial situation allows me a lot of luxuries that I didn't have before, however, does this constantly cause me to question what else I could have and what more I could have, probably.

My wife has just returned to work after a semi-career break for 3 years that would not have been possible had I not been on my post-uni salary.

Overall I'm doing ok considering, I could utilise more money, but I don't necessarily need more.

I'm in the 24-34 year old bracket, I have a degree, I have less than £1000 savings and have been overdrawn a few times in the last 12 months.

However, I would consider myself to be reasonably financially secure. Student debt is a barely noticable monthly payment and thanks to my degree I have a salary that allows me to have an expensive bike etc.

I'm not saying that I am a representative of every graduate out there but these numbers make it look worse than it is!

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with going to uni.

Never went. Afrer all, when you're working the money markets, what good are the novels of Wordsworth going to do you? 😉

Of course those who didn't go to Uni are financially happier - they didn't development the same sense of entitlement.

EDIT: I thought i'd add that school led me to believe that a degree would get me an amazing job/ lifestyle and i'd have a new porsche at 30. Well i'm 33 and i've got a 15 YO BMW - i guess thats close. The point being i've been given unrealistic expectations of what a degree will lead to.

Of course those who didn't go to Uni are financially happier - they didn't development the same sense of entitlement.

I agree with some of this, well apart from the 'sense of entitlement' line, that's usually sneered out by some bitter old so and so.

There was a gigantic shift 10/15 years ago, when I left school it was about a 50/50 split between those who left at 16 and those who stayed on till 18 and another 50/50ish split with those who went onto Uni, 25% of my nice middle class school went to uni - not quite the brightest and best, but better than average - more recently though everyone has to stay on till 18% and it seems the majority of kids get to go to Uni - which is great, education is great and I wish I had the financial backing to go when I was 18, but...

the job market, is like any other market, it's in a constant state of competition - there are now so many graduates entering the job market at 21 that they're not longer 'special' - even way back when I was a lad people coming into the Bank I worked with at 18 as admin bods could easily find themselves earning more money 3 years later than their mates who joined as a Grad and once they were in, there's no special promotions for Grads, the best you could hope for was one of those really old school managers who used to introduce people by their name and what they 'read' at which Uni - and they were dinosaurs 20 years ago.

We've been talking to our eldest about it, he's only just started High School, if he wants to go to Uni, he not only has to get the grades, but he has to want to do a course which is relevant to work or ideally be a requirement for it or it's not worth it and we won't fund it.

there are now so many graduates entering the job market at 21 that they're not longer 'special'

Just reading the actual report, the Guardian summary is wrong (shock), the stat is actually:

- 9% (of 25-34 year olds) have at least one high cost (eg payday) loan or have taken one in the last year
- 37% of all adults with a payday loan are 25-34 year olds

Somewhat different to the doom and gloom above.

Of course those who didn't go to Uni are financially happier - they didn't development the same sense of entitlement.

One mans sense of entitlement is another broadened horizons...

Easy to blame Brexit payday loans, easy credit and the like but they wouldn't exist without a market....not everyone is using them because they're on the breadline, a huge clientele use them for the latest phones, some never ending PCP car deal or the 'need' for a new bike, tv, tablet etc etc.... People aren't prepared to wait and save for 6 months, the fashion would've prolly passed by then anyway and they'd be laughed out for being out of date.
It's easy to blame bankers, MPs etc but it's weak willed individuals obsessed with 'shiny' who are as much to blame.

Genuinely curious - do you really think the moral fibre of the population has decreased? Or could availability of cheap money be driving demand?

I was buying a car at the weekend. It was fascinating as I sat there basically the desks all around me were people PCPing new Audis, and not cheap ones either. I was the odd man out not taking finance but I overheard one of them saying that basically as its a small amount monthly they pretend it's just like a night out so can justify that way. That gave me some insight into how some minds work.

I’m 40 and have less than £1k in savings and a bog standard pension. I don’t own anything fancy other than a second hand bike and the missus has an old Vauxhall. We wouldn’t have that if her father wasn’t a retired mechanic. No money gets spent on trinkets etc. My biggest financial splurge recently was a new pair of shoes.

I think the majority of posters on here are pretty well off, which doesn’t really make them the best judges of how / why people might take out crazy loans.

Edit - that reads a bit harsh. What I mean is that most in here appear to be older and relatively financially stable. I don’t think the majority of young people are taking out loans at 99998.99% apr just to buy shiny shiny. I work with two twenty odd year olds. They work hard and one of them has just bought a house under the shared ownership scheme as it’s their only viable option.

I'll put myself in the both category.
Went did 2 years and left with no degree.

deviant - Member
Easy to blame Brexit payday loans, easy credit and the like but they wouldn't exist without a market.

footflaps - Member
Some very scary stats in there.

For 'supposedly'* the 5th richest country we have some truly scary inequality out there.

* pre-Brexit, post Brexit we'll be something like 20th after a few years...

Brexit will hurt the economy, pound losses have pushed up inflation, any Tariff will do the same and make people effectively poorer, the people who are struggling will struggle more, those who are just above the line will find it harder and become strugglers.

Unsecured debt is a massive issue, defaults will cause huge problems.

Perhaps the unhappiness is due to the attacks on experts....

Of course those who didn't go to Uni are financially happier - they didn't development the same sense of entitlement.

Agree, although I would replace entitlement with expectation and the fact that going to university didn't bring the expected benefits financially.

Entitlement is a funny word isn't it...
Would somebody be considered entitled if they expected
A job for life
Final Salary Pension
Generous sick pay
Free education
cheap shares in utility companies (or even cheaper if you worked for one)
Tax breaks to become a property investor
unparalleled growth in property

^^i think naive would be the word I’d use

Or born in the 60's?

Went to uni as did the missus (in different countries admittedly) and pretty content financially although definitely feel it's time to finally get on the property ladder. No debts at all, although some of that's because having moved countries a few times in the last 10 years it's a lot harder to persuade people to lend me money!
I would say my degree definitely contributed to this though. It's not been totally plain sailing but the money / opportunities always been there if you are willing to jump through the hoops (Africa and moving Oz). Would be a very different story if I had stuck around here I think.

I also have amazing friends I met through university who have abs still do bring a lot of happiness.

Entitlement is a funny word isn't it...
Would somebody be considered entitled if they expected
A job for life
Final Salary Pension
Generous sick pay
Free education
cheap shares in utility companies (or even cheaper if you worked for one)
Tax breaks to become a property investor
unparalleled growth in property

This, it's almost come to a point now where a think Brexit could be a good thing, because it's so bad - I genuinely cannot see how this trend could be reversed without a cataclysmic event. When 'we' chose a 'Great Recession' instead of a Depression in 2009 it seemed a good idea at the time - but we effectively went from borrowing too much as individual to keep the bubble up, to borrowing too much as a country to allow it to carry on.

As it ever was, it wasn't the 'haves' who paid the price - those who were sitting on hundreds of thousands of equity they didn't earn, with triple locked state pensions their kids without one would have to pay for to go with the final salary pensions they got from work hardly felt a bump in the road - they were, as ever, protected from upon high at every cost, because even the thought of losing all they money they magically 'earned' by being born at the right time was unthinkable, so we slashed interest rates and threw up 'green belts around where people would like to live and build huge grey concrete blocks where the factories used to be so the haves could buy them and rent them to the have nots, the only difference between them and the tower blocks of the 60s was they cost more for their tenants and offered little or no security.

This, it's almost come to a point now where a think Brexit could be a good thing, because it's so bad - I genuinely cannot see how this trend could be reversed without a cataclysmic event.

Brexit / a cataclysmic event won't make things better, just much much worse! And they can get a hell of lot worse yet....

No one ever said "I wish we had another recession"!

As it ever was, it wasn't the 'haves' who paid the price - those who were sitting on hundreds of thousands of equity they didn't earn, with triple locked state pensions their kids without one would have to pay for to go with the final salary pensions they got from work hardly felt a bump in the road - they were, as ever, protected from upon high at every cost

Another way of looking at it is that Political Parties look after those who vote for them. Until the young wake up and start voting for their best interests, pensioners etc will do disproportionally well out of budgets etc. Not voting is basically saying 'I don't care' which is noted and acted upon....

thomthumb - Member
I see facts like this fairly regulary and help but think this is written by baby-boomers who just don't get it.

Quite, they don't get it at all.
I was talking to somebody the other week who said "When I was young I just saved up until I could afford the deposit, no iphones, fancy holidays or cars on the never never".

Okay mate, so now look at time required to save up for a deposit for a house, it's gone from 3 years to 24 years(!).

[img] [/img]

So apparently all you have to do is go without a holiday or a phone for 24 years and you too could buy a 2 bedroom rabbit hutch with no garden and no parking 😆

I see the point I took my first job in there....

anyway entitled generations...

Another way of looking at it is that Political Parties look after those who vote for them. Until the young wake up and start voting for their best interests, pensioners etc will do disproportionally well out of budgets etc. Not voting is basically saying 'I don't care' which is noted and acted upon....

Entitlement is a funny word isn't it...
Would somebody be considered entitled if they expected
A job for life
Final Salary Pension
Generous sick pay
Free education
cheap shares in utility companies (or even cheaper if you worked for one)
Tax breaks to become a property investor
unparalleled growth in property

Yup, we tick all those boxes, retired early, and bloomin' brilliant it is too. That said we both worked hard and saved hard rather than feeling "entitled". As did most of our generation.

And we both voted to remain too. Can't help feeling annoyed with those of the younger generation who couldn't drag themselves away from their Play Stations for a few minutes to bother voting in the referendum. Entitlement comes with responsibility!

You may say people can vote for who they want but they feel the vote is a waste unless it's for lab or con so don't.

Agree to some extent, but if everyone voted Lib Dem then one of their policies is to change to a PR rather than fist past the post voting system. That would be my own personal preference.

For 'supposedly'* the 5th richest country

I was lucky enough to be on the housing ladder in the 80s. I don't understand how anyone is supposed to get their first house these days.

Yup, we tick all those boxes, retired early, and bloomin' brilliant it is too. That said we both worked hard and saved hard rather than feeling "entitled". As did most of our generation.

So you were lucky and didn't realise it, see that graph above - tell us how you would have saved there?

We put away a lot more than 5% of our incomes, that's how. Bought a cheap, crappy little flat in a cheap, crappy area and gradually worked our way up. Did without a lot of things now taken as granted, and now we're getting the benefits.

Same with pretty much all our friends of a similar age. That was just how you lived in those days. Pretty basic but don't recall anyone moaning about it.

Nothing to do with luck.

Oh, and before anyone else says it in a Yorkshire accent......"house? well when I say house it were little more than shoebox in't middle of road".

We put away a lot more than 5% of our incomes, that's how. Bought a cheap, crappy little flat in a cheap, crappy area and gradually worked our way up. Did without a lot of things now taken as granted, and now we're getting the benefits.

No one ever said "I wish we had another recession"!

Only because everyone in the UK, until very recently at least, all drank the same "massively rising house prices is a good thing" coolaid.

We put away a lot more than 5% of our incomes, that's how.

somehwat missing the point i feel.

It would take you 8 times longer today than it took you then.

somehwat missing the point i feel.

It would take you 8 times longer today than it took you then.

Similar flats to the one I bought when I first moved to Edinburgh are on the market for around £100,000. The 5% deposit required by lenders is therefore £5,000.

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000. Putting away 10% (which is not unreasonable if you really do want to get on the property ladder) means you'd have enough for a deposit in under two years.

Doesn't seem unreasonable. Even less time if there are two of you.

And that's Edinburgh which is not a cheap place to buy.

I was lucky enough to be on the housing ladder in the 80s. I don't understand how anyone is supposed to get their first house these days.

Didn't you get the memo?
We're not - keeping house prices beyond reach keeps younger people in the clutches of the private rental sector, which suits the ruling elites and middle-aged, middle-class landlord demographics just fine.

(Having said that, we've just moved into our first house last week)

And that's Edinburgh which is not a cheap place to buy.

Yes it is.

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000.

Could you show me your working out please?

I'm in the 40% tax bracket and in a few years will have to file my own tax return. No degree or A levels. Married with 1 child and a mortgage. Very comfortable with savings, ISA and no non mortgage debt.

My colleague is on the exact same pay scale as me, single and rents. He has a degree. He is always asking when pay day is because he's skint by the end of the month. No savings or investments.

I go on more holidays but he's got the flash car, nights out and expensive clothes.

Priorities init.

Personally I think a degree doesn't make you smart but having a Scottish accountant for a father does make you watch the pennies.

Could you show me your working out please?

Combination of Google and knowing what some graduates have started on. Can't be certain it's 100% accurate but seems reasonable.

No A levels or degree. Reasonably good wage.

I often wonder if things would of been that much different if I'd have give to university? Probably not.

“People with no formal qualifications are more satisfied with their financial situation on average than people with qualifications

Of course this can be read in many different ways - but an odd snippet to pick from that report

I didn't go to Uni before work (did a HND at college) though i'm now studying with Open university.
In the 25-34 bracket.
I do see the value in it for some things, as will enable me to change job easier when complete. Though i'll take a big pay cut to do so! So technically i'd be worse off/financially less happy after Uni - to start anyway.

i would say 28k is the better end of graduate salaries in Edinburgh (or very industry dependent. Computing/engineering - fine, others not so much).

And there are some 100k properties around in Edinburgh, lots i wouldn't want to live in though!

We moved out and down to Peebles when we bought last year, got much more space for our money.

NZCol - Member
I was buying a car at the weekend. It was fascinating as I sat there basically the desks all around me were people PCPing new Audis, and not cheap ones either. I was the odd man out not taking finance but I overheard one of them saying that basically as its a small amount monthly they pretend it's just like a night out so can justify that way. That gave me some insight into how some minds work.

Whats wrong with that, its a no brainer at the moment PCP is cheap - if interest rates start suddenly going up, the loan wont its fixed (which isnt the way the news portrays it). At the end of the PCP if interest rates have gone up and the new PCP agreement means its financially unworkable you can just hand the car back, job done.

Perfectly acceptable way of purchasing a new car.

Once that bubbles gone there will be plenty of 2nd hand cars around.

BMW are asking 10%

Cheek.

Could you show me your working out please?
Combination of Google and knowing what some graduates have started on. Can't be certain it's 100% accurate but seems reasonable.

So you made it up?
Where did your google fu take you?
You do realise that average graduate job salary and "average salary for graduates" are either very very different things or you statement is at best open to a lot of interpretation

Genuinely curious - do you really think the moral fibre of the population has decreased? Or could availability of cheap money be driving demand?

Both to varying degrees.

John Prescott did a good program trying to get the young and unemployed into work...one girl he was helping sort out her CV etc was asked what she wanted to do?....her responses ranged from: I want to marry a footballer, I wasn't to be a singer, to simply "i want to be famous".....Prescott's face was a picture because I'm sure he's read about this new type of underclass but put it down to Tory scaremongering etc....he went through the paper with her finding loads of local jobs, one of them was way over the minimum wage and within walking distance...she didn't want it, why?....it was a cleaning job and apparently "she's too good to be a cleaner"....i genuinely felt sorry for dear John, I don't think he'd encountered that attitude before, the girl is probably still unemployed now.

Now go back the my dad's generation (he's 70) and if they were asked what they wanted to do the bright ones would say something like engineering, others might say builder, some would come out as plumbers, sparkles, some may even have wanted to join the army
...im sure a few dreamers would still have wanted to be singers (we have that generation to thank for the Stones, Beatles etc) so not all bad but the realism of building a career and subsequently building a business seems lacking these days.

I'm in the 40% tax bracket and in a few years will have to file my own tax return. No degree or A levels. Married with 1 child and a mortgage. Very comfortable with savings, ISA and no non mortgage debt.

My colleague is on the exact same pay scale as me, single and rents. He has a degree. He is always asking when pay day is because he's skint by the end of the month. No savings or investments.

I go on more holidays but he's got the flash car, nights out and expensive clothes.

Priorities init.

This too.

Our friends are amazed we're on a repayment mortgage and not interest only...we explained we wanted it paid off sooner rather than later...the bemusement in their faces was priceless....'but you could've got so much more if you'd gone interest only'...yep and been crapping ourselves each night over how we'd pay off the capital when that day came....or glued to the news in the evening praying for no interest rate rises...no way to live in my opinion.
Our friends drive nice cars that they effectively rent whereas ours are bought and paid for, they holiday twice a year (skiing winter and somewhere hot for Summer)..all clamor to get the latest iPhone on release etc and yet wonder why they're permanently broke while Mr and Mrs Deviant can piss off for the weekend at the drop off a hat's...lifestyle choices, it's not rocket science.

So in short, yes I do think there's been a cultural shift, people want more 'shiny' and they're not prepared to wait or save for it.
Makes me glad I (at least feel like I opted out) of all this bullshit and moved out of the South East in 2015, took a pay cut to do it but live around genuinely nice people who want to help out ifb they can and crime is none existent....weather could be better mind but you can't have everything.

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000.

Can't think of any of my London/South East friends or family that managed to get a starting salary like that after uni in the last 15 years.

With all due respect I feel that you are either misinformed or ignorant.

....

My generation are going to be bitten hard by debt. Many of my younger cousins have got themselves into financial trouble, and yes, it's true that they all have cars on tick, Netflix accounts, Sky Sports packages and obviously the obligatory iPhones.

At the same time they also have silly high rents and low paid jobs despite some of them having been to uni.

I doubt my generation will see those things that Mikesmith alluded to.

Those friends of mine that have got on the property ladder have done so with their parents help.

I'm a self-employed carpenter. I was fortunate enough to have a few really good years before leaving the UK which meant I could stuff an ISA full and stick a load more cash into Investment funds which if left should mean I can retire at 55-60 assuming I can keep my head above water and don't need to raid it. I was only able to save that money as I was living in my folks' garden and only paying keep.

The whole system is screwed, imo. I very much doubt that I'll see nor receive the same treatment from the NHS as they currently do, state pension will be a pittance.

I didn't go to uni, left school at 16, and don't need a degree to do my job. But there is no chance someone would even get an interview for my job without a good degree (in science or engineering subject) now.

So all the degree is needed for is competition to get an interview. I can see how people will be disappointed to find that that extra 5+ years of education doesn't bring any value to their daily working lives.

Alpin Member

Average starting salary for graduates in Edinburgh (which what I was) is £28,000.

Can't think of any of my London/South East friends or family that managed to get a starting salary like that after uni in the last 15 years.

With all due respect I feel that you are either misinformed or ignorant

To be fair i've just found a few grad jobs in edinburgh with salaries in or around that (26k, 27k, 28k) Selex are 26k plus joining bonus.

I'm sure there are also a number of lower paid ones -those that don't advertise salary probably- but there are graduate jobs at that pay point!

Again average graduate salary and average graduate job salary are very different things

Average starting salary for graduates

Doesn't everyone have a degree these days? Must be getting close to needing a degree to work in McDonalds.

£28k might be about right for a traditional graduate role, but now they give them out with Cornflakes (and a £50k cheque), there can't be any salary premium left.....

Doesn't everyone have a degree these days

Those people will be even unhappier against their over ambitious expectations.

Perhaps would have said.....

Got a degree.... No

Am I happy.... No

Ahhhh. Scheiß drauf.

It's all very well comparing yourself to others and being smug about how you financially manage yourself (Deviant., et al), but for some, especially those who didn't benefit from the enormous house prices rises of the 2000-2010 (and more so in locations such as the SE) they're now having to pay 3, 4, 5 times what others did for a house. They have not only higher prices, but also higher rates. They may have a shiny car, but perhaps this is because the alternative is a banger which're still cost a load to run, and thus prevents them saving up so are happy to PCP instead?

Average engineering graduate starting salary in the SW is ~ £30-£32k. By the time they finish their schemes (larger companies) they'll be on £40k inside of two years.

Maybe in some larger multi national but many smaller the wages are nowhere near that.

Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets (engineering or otherwise), or the average salary in a "graduate job"? Cos there's quite a difference these days.

. They have not only higher prices, but also higher rates.

Rates have never been so low, which is partly why house prices are so high....

Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets

I was referring to engineering and back to both the point Daffy made.

Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets

I was referring to engineering and back to both the point Daffy made.

I started, as a graduate engineer, on £14,000 in 1992 IIRC, which is about £28,000 now adjusted for inflation. The best graduate schemes back then, e.g. BT/BA, where starting on £20,000, which would be £40,000 now.

Ah yes, that magic wage growth thing... Those jobs probably had pensions then...
Back then there probably wasn't this discussion either
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41717401

There is strong public support to ban unpaid work experience that lasts more than four weeks, new research suggests.
Three quarters of people surveyed by the Social Mobility Commission backed a change in the law to stop companies from exploiting unpaid interns.
The poll of 5,000 people was published ahead of the second reading of a Lords Bill that seeks to end the practice.
The commission's chairman, the former Labour MP Alan Milburn, said the issue was a "modern scandal" that must end.
There are an estimated 70,000 unpaid internships a year and in some industries they have become the main route for graduates to get their first job.

Now go back the my dad's generation (he's 70) and if they were asked what they wanted to do the bright ones would say something like engineering, others might say builder, some would come out as plumbers, sparkles, some may even have wanted to join the army
...im sure a few dreamers would still have wanted to be singers (we have that generation to thank for the Stones, Beatles etc) so not all bad but the realism of building a career and subsequently building a business seems lacking these days.

That's in part because, back in the day, you could join a company as a minion, and leave 40 years later having been running the place, on a whopping final salary pension. Where I am you'd be in for a long service award if you've done 5 years.

I've flitted around massively between industries and roles; local government -> insurance -> finance by the time I was 30, although it's worked out for me. I've got a degree, and it's been useful insofar as I wouldn't have got my first role without the degree (it was a pre-requisite, but I didn't really use it in the role, if that makes sense), and therefore subsequent career moves wouldn't have happened, although none have really required a degree. Indeed I'd argue outside of medicine, sciences etc how many jobs really [i]require [/i]a degree?

It's very easy to say "our/my parents generation worked so much harder than these ****less millennials who just want to be musicians (WTF?)", but I do agree that house prices are insane, and whilst the idea that you could live in some shit hole hovel to "get yourself on the ladder" isn't entirely flawed, it's not really reasonable, and it sure as hell isn't what they/our parents (delete for appropriate age group) did as Kenny's suggesting.

Directly related to that I do also worry about the number of young people with zero financial nous who know nothing but low interest rates, and as such have mortgaged themselves to the hilt because they're so desperate to buy/to have the house they really want. And therein is the truly terrifying stat within this report, 47% of people would struggle with £100 increase in their monthly rents. That's mental.

Ah yes, that magic wage growth thing... Those jobs probably had pensions then...

Well I've just had a look at the two examples I used (from 1992), to see what they now offer.

BA Graduate program, [url= https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/graduates/ourprogrammes/futureleaders/ ]starting salary £27,500[/url] with pension.

BT Graduate program, [url= http://www.btplc.com/Careercentre/earlycareers/graduates/index.htm ]£30,500[/url] with pension.

So, not quite kept up with inflation, but still have grown...

[quote=footflaps ] Are you talking about the average salary that a graduate gets
I was referring to engineering and back to both the point Daffy made.
I started, as a graduate engineer, on £14,000 in 1992 IIRC, which is about £28,000 now adjusted for inflation. The best graduate schemes back then, e.g. BT/BA, where starting on £20,000, which would be £40,000 now.

I saw a job advert recently for the civil service department I started my career in after university 17yrs ago. job description is almost identical, the grade is lower and the starting salary now is less than I started on then...and no gold plated pension...

So the same job pays less and the pension will be much worse than back then. They are probably good schemes but how many graduates are being hired on those rates and how many are ending up on the unpaid internships etc. Also in 92 that degree would have been a lot cheaper to get hold of.

Jesus that's shocking. 11% increase minus 15y of inflation. And much higher rents and other living costs to cope with too. Oh, plus 30-50k of debt.

I wonder to what extent there's a 'Dunning-Kruger' effect going on here where those who are less financially literate are happier despite being worse off, simply because they don't understand that they are worse off or in a bad situation with debt etc.

and inflation doesnt include housing costs

We've been talking to our eldest about it, he's only just started High School, if he wants to go to Uni, he not only has to get the grades, but he has to want to do a course which is relevant to work or ideally be a requirement for it or it's not worth it and we won't fund it.

Which of these would you permit* your child to do?

- Forensic science
- Media studies
- Sports science
- Music
- Geology
- Computer Games Technology

* you do realise he is an adult by then and free to make his own mind up?

So the same job pays less and the pension will be much worse than back then. They are probably good schemes but how many graduates are being hired on those rates and how many are ending up on the unpaid internships etc. Also in 92 that degree would have been a lot cheaper to get hold of.

Partly globalisation / competition, both BT and BA are no longer effective monopolies and have more competition / price pressure...

There is some logic there but it is flawed. Very few degrees have zero relevance to work, and those we might initially assume to be so (say Classics, or history of art) probably have very good employment rates into well paid jobs. On the other hand the plenty of seemingly career targeted courses will not result in directly relevant employment (although that may be no bad thing - how many of us pick something at 17 that we will be happy doing for the next 50 yrs, and good courses teach transferable skills).

Agreed, see my previous point that although my degree has never really been useful in work I wouldn't have got my first job - and thus my subsequent ones - without 'a degree' (could probably have been in zoology frankly).

We put away a lot more than 5% of our incomes, that's how. Bought a cheap, crappy little flat in a cheap, crappy area and gradually worked our way up. Did without a lot of things now taken as granted, and now we're getting the benefits.

The point is that if you were starting out again, it would be far, far harder to do the same:

1) Rents are much higher now so it's much harder to save up for a deposit
2) House prices have gone up by an extraordinary amount. I wouldn't be able to afford my (modest) house at current market rates, whereas it was quite comfortable when I bought it 12 years ago.
3) Good occupational pensions have all but disappeared, so I would need to save more of my salary, again making it harder to save for a deposit
4) My university tuition was free so I graduated without the £40k+ debt that is now common

In other words, if young people look at that and think "stuff it, I'll take out some loans and live for today", well who can blame them?

2) House prices have gone up by an extraordinary amount. I wouldn't be able to afford my (modest) house at current market rates, whereas it was quite comfortable when I bought it 12 years ago.

"Natural ability without education has more often raised a man to glory and virtue than education without natural ability"

Marcus Aurelius