[Closed] People burning wet wood on inefficient stoves 'poisoning themselves'

Yeah  But no but yeah but I want one.....

5 pages

Yeah, wet wood has always been an issue since the days when fires were invented.

Who would have thunkit.

Oosh! Posting a negative story about the middle-classes go to social standing benchmark...

...what could go wrong?

wet wood has always been an issue since the days when fires were invented

Actually I think the headline is misleading and gives people a route to wiggle out, e.g. "I only burn dry wood" or "my stove is efficient". The statement in the bit I quoted is the most alarming, wet wood or not. Wood, coal and solid fuel fires in the home generate 40% of total PM2.5 – the smallest and most dangerous particulate.

Apart from local councils restrictions being enforced around wood burners in some areas, for both H&S and smoke/smog/emissions reasons.

You would be right in thinking the common man cares less about wet wood than what looks good in the corner of the room whilst the central heating is blasting out.

We must have had a bit of an inversion layer over our street for the past two nights - everyone's started using their wood burners (who has one) and suddenly there's a proper bonfire smell as I walk back from the evening dog walk.

The link between wood burning and a higher mortality rate was established a while ago in this study

https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.e8446

everyone’s started using their wood burners (who has one) and suddenly there’s a proper bonfire smell

...and the unholy stench of murder

Another piont which relates to this is councils charging for disposing of wood. Now people are burning their old treated wood and whatever else will burn causing much more air polution.

Spot on - my neighbour who is a builder has several bags of waste sawn wood outside his house, some of it stained and painted, and there's always a distinct smell of burning paint in the evenings. I guess he doesn't care about his flue.

…and the unholy stench of murder

That might be a jokey, flippant comment, but the evidence is that if you burn wood in your home you are contributing to killing more people than if you didn't burn wood. Although the same is true if you drive a petrol or diesel car. What's striking is the fact that home generated pollution appears to be over 3 times worse than driving for PM2.5 pollution.

I guess he doesn’t care about his flue.

or his neighbours' health?

Still not as deleterius to health as a summer barbecue, for a beautiful mix of pah, aldehyde, voc and pm2.5-pm10, but hey everyone loves some cancer with their singed meat.

I guess he doesn’t care about his flue

Maybe he's had his jab.

What’s striking is the fact that home generated pollution appears to be over 3 times worse than driving for PM2.5 pollution.

Is that per hour of use? I've been a bit uneasy about the impact of my woodburner for a while but it's really hard to find specific data in context.

I'd like a nice simple comparison - if I'm poisoning myself more sitting in front of my wood burner or sitting on the motorway or smoking.

I'd also like to know what's going up my chimney and what's coming into my living room.

I noticed 'sailing with an auxiliary engine' was on the list of polluting activities too...

what’s going up my chimney and what’s coming into my living room

putting it simply: whatever goes up your chimney is also coming into your (or someone else's) living room.

Still not as deleterius to health as a summer barbecue, for a beautiful mix of pah, aldehyde, voc and pm2.5-pm10, but hey everyone loves some cancer with their singed meat.

IT's what Gas and Electric BBQ's are for....

I’d like a nice simple comparison – if I’m poisoning myself more sitting in front of my wood burner or sitting on the motorway or smoking.

I’d also like to know what’s going up my chimney and what’s coming into my living room.

It should all be going up your chimney so it's everybody else you are impacting. The impact will vary depending on the air flows around, certainly in spots in Tassie where I was the smoke would never lift out of some valleys and suburbs which is probably the worst case for people out there.

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Still not as deleterius to health as a summer barbecue, for a beautiful mix of pah, aldehyde, voc and pm2.5-pm10, but hey everyone loves some cancer with their singed meat

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Does that account for the frequency/volume of BBQ smoke vs woodburners?

I'd also like to add people who like to lock down and slow burn their stoves all night.

These people would be first against the wall

It should all be going up your chimney

That's my take - apart from the dust I clean out which is obvs pretty carcinogenic.

However the article does say "poisoning themselves".

However the article does say “poisoning themselves”.

Well if its not going well and working properly it will be venting into your house. Also you are also going outside to breath is all in.

Another piont which relates to this is councils charging for disposing of wood. Now people are burning their old treated wood and whatever else will burn causing much more air polution.

Where's that? Ours charge for anything building waste (bricks, soil, concrete, etc) but wood is fine.

Have been slowly disposing of the shedfull of old decking and other rubbish wood the previous owner of my house left "for the logburner" but you'd be mad to burn most of it.

Didn't use it last winter and probably won't this winter either - once the novelty wore off it's a pain to do and even if I leave the heating off in that room in the depths of winter it gets so hot with a fire going it's not worth doing, plus feels so antisocial in a built up area. Will probably redecorate next year and the logburner will be going.

Apart from local councils restrictions being enforced around wood burners in some areas, for both H&S and smoke/smog/emissions reasons

What enforcement?

What if you drive your VW "Emissions Scandal Era" diesel t5 camper out to the middle of nowhere and fire up the factory installed wood burner???

What enforcement?

I think it's handled by the same people who nab people for taking the DPF off their diesel cars...... i.e. no one in practice.

Where I live is a smoke free zone..... and what that means in practice is you can burn anything you like as long as there is no visible smoke. PM2.5 particles, the most harmful, are invisible to the naked eye.

We live on a bit of a hill in a 2 storey house, next street is below us and the houses are bungalows. One of them has installed a stove but because of the street layout his chimney is pumping smoke and fumes away from him but directly into all the houses and gardens on our street.

The council have checked his installation is legit and have basically told us as long as he's not pumping out visible smoke he's not doing anything wrong.

Thing is, even if the smoke isn't visible, it still stinks. We have to keep our windows shut when its on, there's been a couple of instances where they've been left open whilst we're out and we've came home to a house stinking of smoke. Not as big a problem in the winter months as we aren't out in the garden but we still need to open windows to get fresh air in and clear condensation.

I hope these go the same way diesel is going and get banned in built up areas or become prohibitively expensive to use. My mate's got one and his latest delivery of wood is about 20% more expensive than last year. It certainly doesn't save him any money off his heating bill and seems like a huge faff on. Fair enough if it's your only source of heat but if you've already got gas central heating it's a pretty anti-social thing to have IMO.

Another piont which relates to this is councils charging for disposing of wood. Now people are burning their old treated wood and whatever else will burn causing much more air polution.

Ours doesn't, you can drop anything at the local tip for free; although I burn all offcuts / left overs on the fire.

Well if its not going well and working properly it will be venting into your house.

I can't see how that could even work. The flow is all upwards, hot air rises. In the unlikely event the flow went the other way I can't see how it can get into the lounge without bringing all the visible nasty stuff with it.

I fully accept that the dust/ash is carcinogenic and *does* get in the house. I just can' t believe that in normal use the smoke and crap that normally goes up the chimney is coming into the house in a way that isn't obvious. There's quite a thermally created breeze sucking the smoke upwards out of a wood burner, you can hear the thing suck.

I hope these go the same way diesel is going and get banned

After seeing the figures, it is odd that cars have been targeted first instead of solid fuel burnt in homes. But it's ok the Government are doing a consultation ( https://consult.defra.gov.uk/environmental-quality/clean-air-strategy-consultation/)......i.e. kicking it into the long grass. The Government were taken to court over air pollution inaction though

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/21/high-court-rules-uk-air-pollution-plans-unlawful

*I know it's the Guardian again....

I fully accept that the dust/ash is carcinogenic and *does* get in the house

I hope your username is unrelated to this.

I can’t see how that could even work. The flow is all upwards, hot air rises. In the unlikely event the flow went the other way I can’t see how it can get into the lounge without bringing all the visible nasty stuff with it.

Because flues leak, in older houses they have multiple fireplaces per chimney, also have you never had the gust of wind that blows the smoke back down the flue?

 I just can’ t believe that in normal use the smoke and crap that normally goes up the chimney is coming into the house in a way that isn’t obvious.

Well your setup is probably good and working correctly, not everybody has that.

@outofbreath: hot air rises but, if there's a gap or crack in your stove it's as likely to rise out of there as it is up your flue. i.e. some will come out of your flue and some out of the crack in your stove.

if there’s a gap or crack in your stove it’s as likely to rise out of there as it is up your flue. i.e. some will come out of your flue and some out of the crack in your stove.

Not once it's up to temp, any gaps just suck air in. Stoves aren't airtight, there is always some leakage around the door seal / vents but once the draw is established any leaks are just sucking air from the room in. Light a match next to an established stove fire and run it round the door and you can see the flame being pulled into the door seal.

Not once it’s up to temp, any gaps just suck air in

Well done, we are not talking about when everything iw working fine or up to temp, light it with wet wood and get a room full of smoke if you get it wrong, get a bit of blowback on a windy day and that changes too. It's not about things working in perfect ideal combustion conditions though.....

Comparing it to something like a pellet/chip boiler it's still a perfect pollution generator.

light it with wet wood and get a room full of smoke if you get it wrong

Hardly a big deal though, that only occurs for a very short period until the flue has warmed up which takes a min or two. I get that with dry kindling and fire lighters some nights. Just shut the vents, wait 1 min and the draw is up to speed.

Not once it’s up to temp, any gaps just suck air in. Stoves aren’t airtight, there is always some leakage around the door seal / vents but once the draw is established any leaks are just sucking air from the room in.

That's my experience. The inside of the wood burner is lower pressure than the room. It's sucking air out of the lounge not the other way around. Open fires are slightly different, of course, you can often smell wood smoke in pubs with open fires. I guess there's a lot less draw and a lot more scope for 'blowage',

get a room full of smoke

That's what I'm saying. The hypothesis is that the obvious nasty smoky poisonous stuff is somehow seperated from the invisible nasty smoky poisonous stuff and only the invisible stuff is coming into the house. I need a bit more convincing of that. Clearly you you can smell smoke you're poisoning yourself in a very obvious way.

I hope your username is unrelated to this.

Let's hope not! But that's why I want to keep an eye on these issues.

I think it’s handled by the same people who nab people for taking the DPF off their diesel cars…… i.e. no one in practice.

Agreed, I don't think it's enforced generally, I was wondering if anyone knew of specific examples.

https://flic.kr/p/2bRSHCU

Soz, there goes another child's face.

Oosh! Posting a negative story about the middle-classes go to social standing benchmark…

…what could go wrong?

This.

I see the feet are already being stamped.

I can’t see how that could even work. The flow is all upwards, hot air rises. In the unlikely event the flow went the other way I can’t see how it can get into the lounge without bringing all the visible nasty stuff with it.

And no one ever got CO poisoning from a faulty boiler...

Oooh so my log burner is a social class status. Awesome

Drac - nah, in your area it's because natural gas and electricity are a middle class luxury 😉

for the rest of us yes, adding a log burner to a home with central heating is definitely a middle class luxury.

Clarke Gable had it right. Frankly .........

Wood , probably damp has been used for thousands of years. The new pollutants are the "incomers" and thus to be condemned first. Wood was there first.  When anyone moans about wood and yet still drives, takes a holiday or indeed does anything in the modern world I start to think about their glass houses. Wood isn't the problem. Its 60 effing million people wanting every modern convenience.

When anyone moans about wood and yet still drives, takes a holiday or indeed does anything in the modern world I start to think about their glass houses. Wood isn’t the problem. Its 60 effing million people wanting every modern convenience.

Not at all there are alternatives and they are coming fast. Vanity Wood burners are a huge problem, burning wet wood is. None can be excused by not going on holiday.

Drac – nah, in your area it’s because natural gas and electricity are a middle class luxury

Haha!

First private house with electric was just over the Moors from here.

I'm removing the wood burner from our barn conversion plans. Been thinking about it for a year as it seems like the right thing to do. We were going to grow our own wood and coppice it.

Vanity burners are a problem.

Unsustainable use is a problem.

People like mattsccm are a problem.

It's not about what came first, it's about how you use it. And yes, it's been around for thousands of years and even in the pre-white settlement days California was a smog trap from all the wood getting burned. It's nothing to do with what else you do or use and about cutting down on unnecessary pollution.

First private house with electric was just over the Moors from here

That Armstrong fella did have a very nice house too.