[Closed] Penalty points

I am doomed aren't I !!!

Both are endorsable penalties. 6 points and a fine.

I got stopped last year, speeding with an MOT a week out of date. Their computer said I was uninsured too, but my insurers said I was.

I had a court appearance, 3 points for the speeding, no points for the mot but a combined £250 fine.

Lesson learned.

EDIT I'm in Scotland too.

Dunno about the combining thing but,

Take it seriously. Consider professional advice and posting on pepipoo.

I was in a similar situation a good few years ago, 20 minute gap between two concurrent insurance policies, I thought "common sense will prevail, honest mistake, not a court in the world would convict me." Ninety quid and six points.

In my limited experience, a court will go "are you guilty, yes / no?" and then use circumstances to determine the severity of the punishment.

http://pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=10&mid=96923

Although both these offences in isolation can be dealt with with tickets, (6 points and £200 ticket for no insurance), the police can only give one endorsable FPN at a time. So these two offences have to be reported to the PF, therefore the original ticket you got for the phone will be cancelled. If you try and pay it, the court won't have any record of it to put the payment against. At least they have rung you to save you that hassle. The report should reflect the circumstances, ie. you've been a div (no offence) as far as renewing your insurance goes, rather than a chancer, which one would expect to be reflected in any penalty the court give you.

A mate is in court soon for the same problem with the insurance, he's in full time work in a respected position and has proof of insurance for the last 25 yrs. He also at the time had full insurance on a motorbike and another car. Was genuinely the same as you and was an oversight. He's going fully armed with all this info but a mate of his who's a police officer reckons he'll still get six and a fine. I'll post back when it happens and let you know. England btw!

The original bloke who gave u the ticket has said not to pay it as the two offences have been combined. Is that right?
If so, what proof do you have apart from the phone call that the ticket has been cancelled? Do you have a 'transaction cancelled' type thing that u get with a Switch card? I was just wondering what happens if in two weeks you get a summons or something for not paying the fine, you say 'i was told not to' and they say 'what do you mean, no one said that'

I'm not saying they would do this on purpose, but things do get forgotten (like cancelling your original ticket) and I'd want a piece of paper that would prove I wasn't expected to pay it.

you made a c**t of it and got caught. Just man up, take whatever they dish out and thank your lucky stars that weren't involved in a crash when uninsured!

Check with your partners insurance to see if you were covered Third party on the car you were stopped in, you may have been covered that way. I guess the technical fact may be that you were not covered and the court may take a view you could assume automatic renewal and when it didnt happen, you may have continued to drive uninsured... There is not a lot of love in a courtroom!

Call a solicitor, many specialise in traffic stuff and have a chat. many do this for free. then you can decide whether you want to be represented. If you do, a solicitor will speak the lingo and I reckon it looks like your taking it seriously....

Good luck...

(I'm in Scotland too)...

The original bloke who gave u the ticket has said not to pay it as the two offences have been combined. Is that right?
If so, what proof do you have apart from the phone call that the ticket has been cancelled? Do you have a 'transaction cancelled' type thing that u get with a Switch card? I was just wondering what happens if in two weeks you get a summons or something for not paying the fine, you say 'i was told not to' and they say 'what do you mean, no one said that'

I'm not saying they would do this on purpose, but things do get forgotten (like cancelling your original ticket) and I'd want a piece of paper that would prove I wasn't expected to pay it.

Fair point, however not a huge problem.

It's not uncommon for people to accept a ticket and subsequently choose not to pay it. In those circumstances the original officer is advised and submits a report to the PF, exactly the same as what is happening here anyway. The only difference is that this one will say words to the effect of "Alcopop accepted a FPN for the phone offence, however due to the insurance issue we had to cancel it" rather than "Alcopop accepted a FPN but has subsequently failed to pay it". So even if the cop forgot to cancel it, it would come back to him to report Alcopop, and he'd have to be a complete muppet to not realise his error at that point.

So im not alone in being a bit of an idiot thanks for the reassurance
Stumpy01 yeah that was my thought it was just a phone call anyway im heading back over to the Station tonight with the new insurance documents and also to get some clarification on charges being combined.
Ive been driving for 20 years never had any issues before,feel like a complete numpty 😳

English tickets have a slip attached to send to the court if you intend to go instead of paying the fine, so have a thorough read of the ticket. But your partner's insurance won't cover you in these circumstances, as the car itself isn't insured. From experience, the chances are that you will be convicted of both, and your circumstances will just be used as mitigation in relation to the punishment.

Edit - just read thegreatape's reply, and he's right about what happens, but in our force, the officer is only told to prepare a summons file after the offender has indicated that they want the offence to be dealt with by means of a trial. Now Scotland may well be different, and probably is, but that's probably the most important thing to check today. Also, in some circumstances you have to surrender your license now to get sent to the court - check that too!

My brother did exactly the same last month, phone and no insurance.

he got 6 months and a lifetime ban

Doesn't matter if you have an entitlement to drive other vehicles, the vehicle must also have its own insurance (at least in England thats the case).

my buddy got stung with this .... about the time they stopped automatically putting on third party entitlement onto FC policys.

was fully comp on a nissan pulsar GTTR but it was in the garage - borrowed his mums car and got pulled for speeding 85 in a 70 in a 1.2 corsa!!(see above car) and a producer.

found out he wasnt insured - explained at the cop shop - ended up with a 12 month ban. - he was young and young drivers tend to get the book thrown at them esp where speed is involved.

he was young and young drivers tend to get the book thrown at them

Insurance companies regard uninsured driving as the WORST THING A MAN CAN DO. So the big penalty for you will be the increased premiums.

Do everything in your power, right now, to scrape around and find some way to show that you did have a valid policy to drive that car. It might involve begging, crying, and spending what seem like large sums of money. But if it pays off, it'll have been worth it.

And I just notice you said you'd got new documents. If you renewed the insurance without telling them you'd just been pulled for driving without insurance then those documents are invalid too.

[s]Jesus[/s] TJ Wil be along shortly to explain all you need to know..

A mate is in court soon for the same problem with the insurance, he's in full time work in a respected position and has proof of insurance for the last 25 yrs. He also at the time had full insurance on a motorbike and another car. Was genuinely the same as you and was an oversight. He's going fully armed with all this info but a mate of his who's a police officer reckons he'll still get six and a fine. I'll post back when it happens and let you know. England btw!

The Police and the court see things in black and white. I obtained a new MOT the next day, produced it in court, made no difference. The fact that I had never driven without insurance or an MOT certificate in 26 years till then counted for nothing.

blimey, only £200 fine for no insurance?? 6 points is a bit more of an issue, but no wonder so many people risk the no insurance thing.

regarding people who have slipped up and not renewed - I appreciate it's easy to do, but it's a fairly serious offence even if you have been a very good boy for many years - an un MOT'd car is uninsured by default, even if you have paid for insurance for it, and an uninsured car is an uninsured car. If you have an accident in that time of uninsurance, particularly if someone gets hurt, then you're really in the shit.

The worst thing I ever saw, was a mate picked me up one day to give me a lift to work, we go in to works car park followed by this Skoda Octavia, we all get out of the car when plod get out of the Skoda and pull my mate for having no insurance according their computer.
He'd done nothing wrong, yet they put his details in saw he was uninsued and then followed behind him for a mile before pulling him full view of the entire office. They then confiscated the car and he had then to prove to the police that he was insured, so he lost pretty much a day of work and his wife had no car either. Plus the police station was about 10 miles from where they lived. He was insured, but did he get an apology, did he ****.

yeah reinsured last night at that time no points from these offences were on my licence
im sure come next year i'll suffer,thats if i still have a licence next year and im a free man

in England now they tend to automatically tow cars with no insurance so you get tow fees plus storage at lots per day on top of the fine.

I don't think insurance company are terribly impressed if they see that on your licence either so you pay a lot extra for premiums.

I think people are being pretty kind to alcopop, tbh - if this was someone posting saying 'hit by motorist on phone who's got no insurance, bike and me both wrecked' there'd be an outcry. Just saying, like.

an un MOT'd car is uninsured by default, even if you have paid for insurance for it

im pretty sure that is an urban myth.

your insurer third party duty of care to folks you hit ! - although happy to be proven wrong - not that its a situation id like to be in !

Same thing happened to a friend of mine (thought she had automatic renewal): 6 point and (I think) £600 (although that may have included the extra insurance cost).

Alcopop, you'll need to phone your insurer and tell them about the offence as soon as it's finalised. Otherwise you'll end up not covered..... again. It's the policy holders responsibility to tell the insurer about anything that could affect the policy.

The mot thing is a myth, but very handy to have one to prove the car was roadworthy!

I think people are being pretty kind to alcopop, tbh - if this was someone posting saying 'hit by motorist on phone who's got no insurance, bike and me both wrecked' there'd be an outcry. Just saying, like.

I guess most of us would have kept quiet about it so fair play to you for putting your hand up and it was genuine mistake with the insurance thing.

A very expensive genuine mistake
lesson learned big time!!

Check with your partners insurance to see if you were covered Third party on the car you were stopped in, you may have been covered that way.

MOT'd car is uninsured by default,

Defo a myth. I was stopped for driving with front fogs on, when there was no fog. 1/4 mile away from the foggy bit. B' stards. Anyhoo, I'd managed to forget the MoT renewal date, and I just got a HO/RT1. Got it MoTd the next day, took it all in to the local cop shop - all OK and no mention of insurance being invalidated.

They often cover person B on another car, but a named driver of the original car too, I'd be amazed.

i once had a policy that did just that. was with co op insurance.

back when me and my paw shared a car - he used it for work monday to friday - 100 mile round trip daily an i used it for going to races in at weekends

insurance stipulated that the main driver and any named drivers on the policy had third party cover on other insured cars. - it amaized me too but it was there clear as day - i had to drive my mates car after he spackered him self !

was 8 years ago mind

[i]any named drivers on the policy had third party cover on other insured cars[/i]

'not owned by themsleves' is usually the caveat on that.

I think people are being pretty kind to alcopop, tbh

What does annoy tho is all the tools i see, in my extensive experience (watching traffic cops), lying to plod, trying to wrangle their way out of it, giving false names etc, wasting police time then get the same 6points + cheap fine - including the ones who never had a [b]license[/b] anyway. Whats the point? Genuine mistake or blatant flouting of the law = same punishment (seemingly).

insurance stipulated that the main driver and any named drivers on the policy had third party cover on other insured cars.

Fairly std, no?

including the ones who never had a [b]licen[u]c[/u]e[/b] anyway

FTFY

sorry, I install a lot of network licence 😉 software which uses american spelling, I have to type license.dat a lot. Forgive me.

heh, sorry, couldn't help myself, cheap point and all that but if you'd not used bold then you'd have been OK.

As it is, you're now PWNED and sentenced to a week on mlehworld.

lesson learned big time!!

But you don't seem to have learned anything.

If you renewed your insurance, knowing you were going to be prosecuted for driving without insurance, and you failed to inform the insurance company then you have commited a fraud (again, the worst thing that an insurance company thinks you can do) and your insurance is invalid.

Take it on the chin, Alcopop and get it sorted properly.

Insurance is an absolute law so you will get 6 points and the mobile issue will hopefully get included in that.

Most JP's view this as a major offence (term may be wrong) but there is some court advice documentation in England that states in cases like yours it can be viewed as a minor offence. This can have a massive affect on the fine so it will be worth doing some googling and speak to a local solicitor they will give free advice but it will not be worth the cost to take one with you.

Advise the insurance company as soon as you come out of the courtroom and pay the extra 30%. It will go down the next year and will be negligible the year after.

If you renewed your insurance, knowing you were going to be prosecuted for driving without insurance, and you failed to inform the insurance company then you have commited a fraud (again, the worst thing that an insurance company thinks you can do) and your insurance is invalid.

Two things,

a) The OP has (presumably) been cautioned for failing to produce a valid insurance certificate. They are going to write to him in 8-12 weeks with a Notice of Intention to Prosecute. So at this juncture, technically, the OP doesn't "know" he's going to be prosecuted.

b) Are you actually obliged to notify the insurance company of things that might happen? You're obliged to tell them about existing convictions when you take out the policy, and subsequent changes such as new convictions. In 20 years of driving I've never been asked to declare any pending prosecutions when taking out insuance.

(Standard disclaimer, this is as I understand it, I am not a lawyer, do not fold spindle or mutilate, value may go up as well as down etc etc)

a) Oh yes he does
b) Oh yes you are (material facts they call it)

a) The OP has (presumably) been cautioned for failing to produce a valid insurance certificate. They are going to write to him in 8-12 weeks with a Notice of Intention to Prosecute. So at this juncture, technically, the OP doesn't "know" he's going to be prosecuted.

No NIP (or Section 1 warning as they are known in Scotland) is required for this offence. The letter in 8-12 weeks will not be an NIP.

Sorry Alcopop, but I've got no sympathy.
You were driving uninsured - end of.
If it's just because you didn't read the letter your insurance company sent then you need to take the whole thing a bit more bloody seriously. Perhaps a fat fine and some points will help with that.

An uninsured driver piled into the back of me (and several others) on the M1 a few years back. I've got no idea whether he was a serial offender or just 'forgot' to read the letter telling him he needed to insure his car. Quite frankly I don't give a shit, as either way I finished up paying for it.

I rode a 100cc bike in London without appropriate insurance cover ages ago. Got stopped dozens of times, never a problem. Once, just once, an officer did a good job on checking my details and... 5 months later I was poorer (£250) and richer (6 extra points). The effects were felt on my premiums for 4 years. Lovely!
BTW No sympathy from me either, you get what you ask for.

But you don't seem to have learned anything.

If you renewed your insurance, knowing you were going to be prosecuted for driving without insurance, and you failed to inform the insurance company then you have commited a fraud (again, the worst thing that an insurance company thinks you can do) and your insurance is invalid.
Take it on the chin, Alcopop and get it sorted properly.

As soon as the penalty points are issued and on my lisence then i'll inform the insurance company so they can adjust accordingly as just now there are only 3 points on my driving license !

Take it on the chin

Driving without insurance, first offence, 6 to 8 points. (only 6 if FPN)
Use of hand–held mobile phone whilst in charge of a vehicle, 3 points

Plus your existing 3 points.
12 - 14 points in total.

So, you are looking at a 6-month ban under the totting-up rules.

Might be worth reading [url= http://www.drivingban.co.uk/drivingban/avoiddrivingban.htm ]this.[/url]

Alcopop - you really are a (that thing I can't call you on here without getting a ban).

If you want independent advice - pop into an insurance broker and say "does it matter if I've been stopped for no insurance but haven't been to court yet?".

Verb = To license, licensed.
Noun = A licence.
Made up word = lisence

A thing that will be missing from your wallet soon = A Licence.

In 20 years of driving I've never been asked to declare any pending prosecutions when taking out insuance.

One of the questions on the comparison sites and one that we ask is

"Any motoring convictions, points on your license in the last 5 years or any PENDING convictions?"

So you will have been asked and you have to advise of any pending convictions too.

Possible senario for OP is an IN10 and a big fine. IN10 though means most companies won't touch you with a barge pole. You'll have to hope they go easy on you as far as prosecutions are concerned.

Good point. Getting insurance with an IN10 on your licence makes life quite tricky. Possibly more tricky than the basic 6-month ban itself....

You won't be able to pay the FPN for the mobile phone offence at the court as the police will have retained the court copy of the ticket on learning of the insurance offence. Both charges will be submitted on a standard prosecution report to the PF who will consider the circumstances. The PF can decide to; bin the case, warn you, offer you a FPN, or cite you for court. Given the two charges under consideration, they will most likely take the last option. The English / Welsh licence surrendering process does not apply in Scotland.

The car would normally have been taken off you at the time (Section 165A RTA 1988) but the cop has given you the benefit of the doubt at the roadside and HO/RT'd you instead. Alas your genuine oversight has fallen foul of the 'strict liability' found in many statutes; the offence is absolute, there is no need for guilty intent, the onus rests with the owner to insure. Penalties for a first insurance offence are 6-8 points and vastly varying fines dependant on offence circumstance and offender income. The mobile phone offence is likely to remain at 3 points and £60.

Your best course of action is to gather together proof of continuous insurance cover over the years and present it to the PF directly with a covering letter. You could even 'fess up to the mobile phone offence as a sweetener. Fiscal's are human and aren't blind to human failings. They can smell BS at 100yds so don't over egg the explanation. If that doesn't work, have your lawyer present your previous continuous cover and outline your genuine oversight at court. It may reduce the fine and points a bit.

Just to clarify other posts mentioning void cover due to expired MOTs or other offences. You and your insurer have entered a contract of absolute good faith. You pay the premium, they provide the cover against third party risks. Regardless of if you are bladdered, speeding, driving on baldy tyres in a thunderstorm, modified the car without informing them etc etc; if you have paid your premium, crash into someone and are subject to a claim from a third party, they are obliged to pay up to the third party on your behalf (if you are at fault). What your insurer can then do if you have broken other laws or failed to declare material facts at renewal time is refuse to pay your own losses and costs and, if it is financially worth their while, attempt to recoup the costs they paid to the third party back from you. This process was created to ensure that third party victims are compensated by insurers regardless of any dispute between the insured and their insurer. This can get a 'bit' expensive once the lawyers are done with you.

Undeclared mods such as window tints, non standard wheels, aftermarket ICE can all catch people out, so if in doubt, declare the lot.

Hopefully it'll have sunk in by now.. mobile phone use has become the fourth highest contributing factor in collision stats.

You'd hope it wasbleeding obvious - however good a driver you think you are using a phone means you're distracted from the job at hand ( driving ) you won't register potential hazards (a cyclist for example?) nor will you react as quickly. TRL research has shown you are four times more likely to be involved in a crash if using your mobile phone.

Re the insurance. There's no excuse, it's one of those things that needs to be done once a year. Amazing how many people claim they missed the renewal. Another interesting fact, uninsured drivers are five times more likely to be committing another offence (like using a mobile phone for example). You were lucky the vehicle was not seized (impounded) (standard policy in my force)" minimum £150 recovery fee.

A final tip 😉 the police national computer (linked to automatic number plate recognition camera's) takes it's info from the Motor Insurers Database. It's always worthwhile checking the vehicle is shown as insured on that (no cost), and, if you are driving another vehicle or on trade or other cover, keep a copy of the policy details with you:

http://www.askmid.com/

http://www.askmid.com/ <

Do the Scots not sieze & crush uninsured cars?

As for being covered third party to drive a car not owned by you, the car you are driving still needs insurance cover.

165A seizures apply in Scotland. Thousands of uninsured cars have been crushed since the legislation was passed.

[b]Cynic-al[/b]

It is not "normal" for Mrs Poly who is a named driver on Mr Poly's policy to be entitled to drive other cars. I think it may have been in the past, and I think there may be some insurers who do, but most of the big names don't.

[b]AnalogueAndy[/b]

Hopefully it'll have sunk in by now.. mobile phone use has become the fourth highest contributing factor in collision stats.

You'd hope it wasbleeding obvious - however good a driver you think you are using a phone means you're distracted from the job at hand ( driving ) you won't register potential hazards (a cyclist for example?) nor will you react as quickly. TRL research has shown you are four times more likely to be involved in a crash if using your mobile phone.

Another interesting fact, uninsured drivers are five times more likely to be committing another offence (like using a mobile phone for example).

So, what was the outcome??

My mate as Promised got six points and a fine. Pleaded his story but magistrates didn't give a ****!!

but the research I've seen actually suggests minimal difference between using a handheld phone (an offence) and using a handsfree phone (not an offence)

Erm how do you catch someone using a handsfree phone?

When they're lying unconscious in a crumpled heap and the other person is still talking to them on the hands-free ?

Personally I won't allow my passengers to talk to me - I take my driving very seriously and I don't like any distractions. Only the other day some ****er overtook me 'cause I wasn't paying attention and concentrating enough on what was happening.

Personally I won't allow my passengers to talk to me - I take my driving very seriously and I don't like any distractions. Only the other day some ****er overtook me 'cause I wasn't paying attention and concentrating enough on what was happening.

Posting on STW, gotta love 3G.

[i]i answered a call on my mobile(hand held)
while driving stupid [/i]

It's illegal. suck it up.