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Anyone fancy weighing in on this?
The wall shown above is crumbling & could do with some significant work to keep it structurally safe.
It forms part of the neighbour's extended kitchen, is entirely on their property & does not connect to our building at all. The two houses were built a few years apart, well over 100 years ago & do not interlink, they do not have meshing bricks, they just butt up against each other. The previous, previous owner of our house attached a wooden frame to their wall & there may have been an out house at one point but the deeds are not clear & there are no obvious signs of anything being fixed to their wall, it would likely have just butted up to it.
They claim its a party wall & therefore its our responsibility to maintain. I disagree.
The below image suggests if its on their property & our building does not attach to it then it is NOT a party wall.
This image also suggests its NOT a party wall & describes it as an External Wall, though there's no explanation as to who is responsible for an external wall.
An external wall is a wall that forms part of a building standing wholly on the land of one owner and which may be situated at, but not astride, a boundary (except to the extent of any projecting footing or foundation)
They have at least twice in the last 9 years repaired the pointing accessible from their property & never once shown any interest in having the whole thing done however on two occasions when we have had builders round (for things other than pointing) invited themselves round to tell the builders they wanted good "lime mortar, none of that cheap stuff". When we had our chimney removed I asked if they wanted theirs doing at the same time, they said no, then when the scaffolding was up, they said yes which cheesed off both builder & scaffolder, then said they didn't want to pay half as we already had workmen on site so it wasn't twice the job... hence I'm in no mood to play happy neighbour.
Thoughts?
It forms part of the neighbour’s extended kitchen, is entirely on their property & does not connect to our building at all.
I think your neighbour may have misunderstood what a party wall actually is. It's their building, on their land. It's entirely theirs in terms of costs of repair, and your only involvement would be giving permission for works to be carried out from your property.
If you were building onto the side of it, or near it, then it would be considered a Party Wall, and you would be responsible for making sure your works did not compromise it. If you are responsible for its deterioration and poor condition, then you'd be responsible for making good.
Basically, they're trying it on.
My advice would be to let it fall down, then empty their fridge.
IANAPWL, obviously.
Basically, they’re trying it on.
My advice would be to let it fall down, then empty their fridge.
That was my thinking too.
Hopefully they have some nice beers and snacks in there. If challenged, just say it's a party fridge, so it belongs to you.
They sound like great neighbours!
They actually are quite nice on all matters except building works.
Not a party wall.
Based on your comments about their past behaviour, any goodwill has now been exhausted.
It's fully their responsibility with all associated costs.
When it falls into your garden/yard, invoice them for loss of amenity.
I think your neighbour may have misunderstood what a party wall actually is. It’s their building, on their land. It’s entirely theirs in terms of costs of repair, and your only involvement would be giving permission for works to be carried out from your property.
100% this
Hopefully they have some nice beers and snacks in there.
Doubtful judging by the state of the wall.
I'd be removing that frame from their wall fairly sharpish TBH.
Edit: That wall is a shocker - looks like I built it!!
Yeah I'd let it fall down and then go full nuclear on them for damages.
We are not sturdy!
We are not sturdy!
Suggest that if it's a party wall, it's one that you're not bothered about so you'll happily go halves with them to have it demolished.
I’d be removing that frame from their wall fairly sharpish TBH.
I dunno, looks like it's holding it all together. 😁
I think your neighbour may have misunderstood what a party wall actually is. It’s their building, on their land. It’s entirely theirs in terms of costs of repair, and your only involvement would be giving permission for works to be carried out from your property.
👆👆👆
your only involvement would be giving permission for works to be carried out from your property.
I wonder how they'd feel if you refused permission...
The only concern I have is what did the frame support? Was it long gone by the time you bought the property? And who carried out the 'repairs' involving the five stacked bricks?
politecameraaction
We are not sturdy!
We are not sturdy!
Deserves more recognition.
Cougar
I dunno, looks like it’s holding it all together. 😁
I suspect it is.
The only concern I have is what did the frame support? Was it long gone by the time you bought the property? And who carried out the ‘repairs’ involving the five stacked bricks?
The wooden frame was gone before the people we bought it off moved in. the bricks are literally just stacked, you can take them out by hand.
To cover your backside - are there any estate agent photos that show that wall and that timber frame?
If there are I'd be saving them as proof it was there before you moved in. Try Zoopla for historic listings and get screenshots of the listing.
They sound like to type who would try and say it was 'your' timber frame that damaged the wall should anything happen.
I think you ought to fence the area off asap and move picnic table away from drop zone is that a kiddies sand pit hidden under bushes the consensus is it’s not a party wall prob time to get serious with them there is a limit to good neighbouring
the-muffin-man
They sound like to type who would try and see it was ‘your’ timber frame that damaged the wall should anything happen.
Listed on Zoopla but they haven't saved any pics, I might have some from when we moved in but anyone looking close enough would be able to say the timber & damage / neglect predate us buying it.
There is a limitation period on Party Wall claims, so as long as the frame was installed more than six years ago, you should be fine even if it is claimed to be contributing to the problem (which it isn't).
So, basically, there is a five-brick gap which is completely unsupported? I'm guessing it's not single skin, or you'd be getting a nice view of their breakfasting already.
The wall is in dangerous condition, and at this point I would be considering formally reminding them who would be liable if it collapsed on whoever plays in that sandpit.
One more question, does it offer any support to that decking?
looking close enough would be able to say the timber & damage / neglect predate us buying it.
does that matter? In buying it, did you also not buy any liability?
martinhutch
There is a limitation period on Party Wall claims, so as long as the frame was installed more than six years ago, you should be fine even if it is claimed to be contributing to the problem (which it isn’t).
It was abandoned, never mind installed over 9 years ago and yes, anyone looking at it can see the frame has no negative effect on the wall.
So, basically, there is a five-brick gap which is completely unsupported? I’m guessing it’s not single skin, or you’d be getting a nice view of their breakfasting already.
If you take the bricks out then there is an odd hole, possibly into to an old chimney or fire place, I'm too frightened of spiders to fully investigate.
The wall is in dangerous condition, and at this point I would be considering formally reminding them who would be liable if it collapsed on whoever plays in that sandpit.
This is why we had a chat yesterday. Came here looking to get reassurance I was correct.
One more question, does it offer any support to that decking?
The decking does not touch their wall at any point, this is also in dire need of replacing.
Is the wooden beam helping support the top 6 rows of bricks from the pic it looks like it's setback and the bricks are on top if it ?
I think that's an optical illusion because of the change in brick colour above.
Interested to know what the 'outline' of different colour bricks was, though.
yes your right, just zoomed in on the pic - it's in a right state that wall
I was just about to say it just needs properly re-pointing and that little stack of bricks sorting! 🙂
Assuming it's vertical and not leaning I've seen far worse stay up for years.
Get the kids to kick a football against it in the evenings and over the weekend. You'll soon find out how stable it is.
I was just about to say it just needs properly re-pointing and that little stack of bricks sorting! 🙂
Assuming it’s vertical and not leaning I’ve seen far worse stay up for years.
Did you miss,
the bricks are literally just stacked, you can take them out by hand.
I'm not a builder but by the sounds of things it needs more than repointing, it needs rebuilding!
It's got character! It'll be fine with a repoint and cleanup.
A nit picking arsehole might say: "Looks like a party wall to me, up to the last 6 courses, because it is the only thing supporting your shallow pergola!"
If you do remove the frame, do it carefully, using either an oscillating tool or dremel to cut away wood round the nails/screws so you don't rattle the wall apart further by using hammers and pry bars. If it were my wall I'd want the frame to stay until the brickie had repointed a substantial proportion of it.
OP ask yourself what you want to achieve here?
That wall which you have to a look at is a right fright. The wall looks structurally ok even though it’s in very dire need of a repoint.
Do you think the neighbours are going to repoint your side of the wall unless they absolutely have too? Instead they could just not bother and leave you to enjoy the crap brickwork.
Maybe have a chat and come to a compromise on cost before doing anything hasty as repointing is going to make your garden a hell of a lot better space to enjoy?
@tonyf1 - it's not just a garden wall, it's the part of the neighbours house (assuming I've understood the OP!). They need to sort it out
That wall which you have to a look at is a right fright.
Use that frame to plasterboard and skim, then ignore it at your leisure. 😁
I'm puzzled - we have the typical photo of some shonky brickwork, dodgy decking, an unkempt pot of struggling plants and other paraphernalia loosely strewn around but I can't see the OPs new bike?
@tonyf1 – it’s not just a garden wall, it’s the part of the neighbours house (assuming I’ve understood the OP!). They need to sort it out
Sort what out? Stood for a 100 years so likely only cosmetic.
Use that frame to plasterboard and skim, then ignore it at your leisure. 😁
Nice idea but it’s not the OP’s wall remember.
New bike so too skint to chip in 😀
Stood for a 100 years so likely only cosmetic.
TBH a wall being up for a hundred years is not a testament to its structural integrity - it only means it's probably closer to falling down than a wall that's been up for 50 years.
(especially that one)
It’s not failing anytime soon but is going to look crap forever.
That's some seriously bad brickwork. Looking at it its a double course and the external course has lost most of its cement.
I wonder if you couldn't get building control to issue an enforcement on getting it repaired.
Windshear will be its downfall.
The whole run is knackered and at an absolute minimum needs repointing.
The vertical stack probably slate filling and really tieing in.
We have a kitchen extension that is 30 years old, and was here when we moved in. It's on our property, and our neighbor has it as the backdrop for their yard. It is clearly our wall as both houses are otherwise symmetrical (semis) and there is no party wall thing going on cos she doesn't have a matching extension. It was probably there before our neighbor moved in, and she likes it as she can use it as a sun trap and put plants up against it. But if it started crumbling it's clearly our problem.
Sounds like OP's neighbor is properly trying it on, and past behavior with scaffolding etc is indicative of sharp practice. Getting local building control to take a look for safety sounds like a good option - or taking advice at the very least.
FWIW (I am a retired PWS), I would say it's not a Party Wall if it is located on the neighbour's land, unless the OP has "enclosed upon it" with a building. It is the neighbour's responsibility to maintain it, and they may be able to invoke the Access to Neighbouring Land Act to gain access to it from the OP's side of the wall for the purposes of repairing or maintaining it.
I am a retired PWS, every day is a school day as I'd never realised you got party wall specialists