Parking PCN - what are my chances?

The PCN simply gives a time and date for the offense, the time given is actually within the time paid for according to the receipt on the app.

I think you have used the wrong grounds for appeal. If the above statement is correct, then your appeal should be simply that you paid and had a valid ticket at the time the ticket was issued.

The statement is correct, the time on the PCN is (I think) the time I left the car park.  I paid for parking while in town so the start/end times on the receipt are before and after the time given for the offense.  I attached the receipt generated from their app and made this point.  The appeals process requires you to select options before submitting any statement/evidence.  I selected the options that led to 'the offense was not committed' then stated that parking was paid for and attached the receipt.

I walked into town and while having a bite to eat downloaded the app and paid for 4 hours of parking.

How long after parking did you pay, and does your session start at the time you paid while having your lunch or do you backdate it to when you started?

If you were done by ANPR, then possible they gave some grace period (common now - for this reason, to give you time to access the app and pay) but that doesn't square with the time on the ticket being within the time you paid for.

Maybe if it's attendant issued, then it's possible they checked your car, found not paid, gave you a bit of grace (unless they watched you arrive they don't know if your car's been there for 10s or an hour) - so give you 5 mins, check again, still not paid and in the time to issue the ticket your payment's gone through.

I don't see the relevance of paid for 4 and stayed for 3 - that's tough. You're supposed to pay for the time you were there, minus a bit of sorting payment out time, which by the sounds of your explanation you didn't do, but your appeal would presumably that they ticketed you at a time when you can show you had a valid session running, which sounds pretty open and shut. So unless they counter with 'ah, but you parked 30 mins earlier than your session started.....' I can't see a reason why that wouldn't be upheld.

Perhaps put some meat on the bones of the story, too much supposition to give a clear answer.

[edit - you have while I was typing]

Sounds like it's ANPR controlled and triggered upon leaving. Algorithm like

<Check time arrived>

<Check time on departure>

<If not paid within Arr+10 mins, or if Time paid for [Dep-Arr] > time paid for, then Ticket>

I'd be inclined to show your appeal as you say you have, but be prepared for them to reject on basis you didn't pay soon enough. Does the PCN say the actual times of your stay?

The app doesn't allow you to backdate the start of the session so the session time on the receipt and the actual session are around 40 minutes out of sync.  The carpark is ANPR controlled.  I only mention the paid-for and actual time to illustrate that I paid the full price that I should have paid for the service they provided.

Also FWIW

the time on the PCN is (I think) the time I left the car park

If you use G-maps or similar you can probably access your data through the app and show for sure. Useful for me in the summer, I pulled into a Cornwall beach car park, dropped son off, and left, so well within the grace period (as stated in the T&C when I checked later - "Parking commences 15 mins after entry")

I then parked properly in the same CP 3 days later, but on trying to leave and pay at the machine it told me I owed £35 for 3 days parking. I couldn't dispute there and then and only pay for the hour I'd been there, so option was pay £35 and try and get it back, or ignore and then appeal.

That's where I could helpfully show the G-map data for the first session, with me leaving the car park immediately, I also had map data showing me all over SW Cornwall, including parking paid for elsewhere, in the 3 days I'd supposedly still be there, and then also data showing me back there on the third day and staying for the hour.

Seems their ANPR exit camera hadn't registered my exit the first time but rather than admit their failure, they dropped the PCN 'out of goodwill' and even agreed to waive the £2 I owed for the hour I'd actually parked for but not been able to pay.

They (possibly fairly) get a bad rap from many, but being methodical and honest in your appeal, I found them pretty reasonable.

Something similar was on the BBC news website recently, someone hadn't paid for the ticket quickly enough (had to be within 5 mins I see to recall).

After much faffage the parking firm backed down but suspect the negative publicity it was going to attract swayed their decision.

Yeah, sadly I think you're going to be guilty on the basis of the 40 mins that it took to pay for it. As I say, if you claim technology issues and that you had no intent to not pay, evidenced by the fact your payment more than covers the time you were there, and be reasonable about it you might get some joy. But black and white, somewhere it'll say when the session is deemed to start (as my example, they give you 15 mins) and I'll bet it's not 40 mins, so you didn't meet the T&C's and in those eyes, PCN is correct.

Can't hurt to try, but be reasonable and approach as your problem and 'error' rather than "YOU MONEY GRABBING BUNCH OF ****ING THIEVES!!!!!!" and you may be lucky

depending on what value you put on your time, it might be cheaper to just pay it

Sounds like you started your parking session quite sometime (40mins?) after you entered the carpark even though you did pay for the time you actually parked for, so parking co are quite within their rights imo otherwise people would abuse the system.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czenn548x1no

In this case above, you're allowed 5 mins but the guy took 20. In my case, you were allowed 15. What's the right number - at the extreme, as long as you pay eventually and pay enough to cover the time you were there, what did they lose? I guess there though the risk would be that people don't pay and wait and see if they get pinged, then simply pay there and then and claim they'd paid eventually. Extreme I know but that's the far end of options, and as per the landmark ruling (Beavis vs Parking Eye) the judgement ruled that there can be a 'penalty' for non-payment to act as a deterrent (contract law strictly would normally only allow genuine losses)

I paid for parking while in town so the start/end times on the receipt are before and after the time given for the offense

The app doesn’t allow you to backdate the start of the session so the session time on the receipt and the actual session are around 40 minutes out of sync

You've lost me now. I hope your appeal is more coherent than your posts here.

to the parking co this might look as if you paid for the parking after being ticketed in order to try to get out of the ticket ie chancing your arm.

YOu paid for the correct number of hours but not from when you actually started using the car park

Sorry if I wasn't clear, the receipt shows a start time (when I paid) and an end time 4 hours later.  However, my actual arrival time was about 40 minutes before the start time on the recipt.

What's really annoying is that they have a sign that shows they offer an option to pay up to 24 hours after arrival so I made the assumption that there was a facility to set the time within the app.  I couldn't check that until after downloading though, by which time it was too late.  With hindsight, when I couldn't backdate the time on the app I should have simply waited until I got home and paid through the website.

so the start/end times on the receipt are before and after the time given for the offense

Appears to me from what's been reported is that the trigger point for tickets being issued is the ANPR registering your leaving. So the time on the ticket is when you leave, even if you have a valid ticket at that time. Hence why my potential algorithm also compares time parking started to time parking was paid, as well as whether you overstayed.

At the extreme again, if having a valid ticket at the time you left is all you need, then you could game by simply paying the minimum time as you get back to the car, and then proudly showing you have a ticket that brackets the time on the PCN.

(they also need to know when you left to work out how big a bastard you actually are 🙂 )

To clarify further, the PCN was sent by post to the keeper (me) around 10 days after the parking and there's a facility to pay up to 24 hours later so TJ's scenario doesn't apply.

 However, my actual arrival time was about 40 minutes before the start time on the recipt.

I will be surprised if your appeal is upheld. I think there is informal guidance that you should be allowed 5-15mins to download app / find cash / get a data signal for paying. 40mins is a stretch though and I think you've been caught fair and square.

I got one a few weeks ago, I tried to use the app but as you can see trying to confirm your mobile is difficult because you can’t actually enter it.

Paid the fine as I forgot about it until 24 hours before. :/

What’s really annoying is that they have a sign that shows they offer an option to pay up to 24 hours after arrival so I made the assumption that there was a facility to set the time within the app.

Had the same situation at Luton Parkway Station. Saw the sign that said you had upto 24hrs to pay. In a hurry to catch a train and didn't read the really small print. So didn't both paying until a lot later when I had more time (& remembered to pay). This is also an APCOA operated carpark.

Got a PCN and challenged it explaining that I had paid for the length of time the car was in the carpark but not at the time I drove in and that the signage was confusing.

They cancelled the PCN on that occasion as a goodwill gesture.

I read a news article recently... Sorry I can't remember where.. Where someone got hit with a huge amount for multiple infractions in the same car park... I guess where she worked or did business regularly..

It sounded terrible for her until you read past the headlines and it turned out she'd go for hours at a time before paying.

It's pretty rubbish as if you are there for 3 hours and you paid for three hour hours, say the same day then there's no material loss or inconvenience for the parking company.

My rule of thumb is of you park somewhere you need to pay, then the first thing you do after parking is seek out some change or pay on the app... Do not go for lunch, do not go shopping etc. Before you've paid.

‘out of goodwill’

Ooh, there's a phrase for the disproportionately cross thread. So often misused by companies to mean "yeah, we were trying it on, you caught us out, so we'll refund you to avoid this escalating but call it goodwill to imply it's really your fault and we're the good guys".

Yeah.. A bit like when you see 'without prejudice'.

Yeh... Get in the sea!

As long as you’ve paid for the period you entered and exited and you’ve not been a knob in any of the appeal info I think they’ll accept the appeal.

Caveat would be if they’ve got a T&C specifically covering how long you have to purchase a ticket from point of entry. You should check.

Lesson is just pay the thing before locking your car. Good luck.

Playing devils advocate... It looks like abuse if you're taking longer than say 30 mins to buy a ticket via app or cash in the meter.

My point though, is what's the damage to the parking Company if you were there say 3 hours, and on the same day you've paid for 3 hours... It makes no material difference whether you pay up front or several hours later... They still get the money so what's the material loss?

I think it's probably fair that not paying the same day is taking the piss as it can get complicated if you use the car park on a daily /regular basis.

Let's be honest... Private parking companies make pretty much pure profit by needling the crap out of people.

Back in the day it would have been reasonable to not have any change and need to go to a nearby shop (or a further-away shop as the nearby shop is pissed off with this) to go break a fiver. Today it should be equally reasonable that you didn't have any data allowance left on your mobile and had to find public Wi-Fi to get the app.

Sadly however, "parking companies" and "reasonable" rarely feature in the same sentence unless accompanied by words such as "unlike"?

Who's the landowner? Was it a regular public car park or is it attached to a retail park or supermarket who might not want to lose paying custom?

Honestly I think I'd be appealing that.

Does the time of the offence fall within the time slot on your ticket? Yes.

Tell them to go **** themselves.

Tell them to go **** themselves.

Or tell them you are Harry Buttle and you seem to have received a PCN for Tuttle by mistake

Does the time of the offence fall within the time slot on your ticket? Yes.

Tell them to go **** themselves.

OP has not actually said about whether the PCN includes more details of the stay - just that the time of the PCN is within the stay. If you just tell them to **** off, they might be be inclined to point you to the black and white of the sign, to the ANPR showing them arriving and to the receipt showing their ticket bought 40 mins later, and tell you that it's clear as day.

A more apologetic conciliatory approach might be better. IMHO

and had to find public Wi-Fi to get the app.

What's wrong with using your mobile data..... I'm sure you cannot get any mobile plan (Inc PAYGo) without data now.

It's pretty niche to have a car park located where there is no data access [how do you think the ANPR system sends it's data?]

Tell them to go **** themselves.

Yep that'll work.

Yep that’ll work.

More often than not it does yes, especially when you have a valid ticket for the time of the offence. It's a private parking ticket, some of you are over thinking it, just a tad.

especially when you have a valid ticket for the time of the offence

It's unclear whether they do, OP has still not confirmed if there is other time info on the PCN.

I suspect APCOA can show them NOT having a valid ticket for 40 mins at the start of the stay if they haven't already done so on the PCN.

It’s unclear whether they do, OP has still not confirmed if there is other time info on the PCN.

From the first post.

The PCN simply gives a time and date for the offense, the time given is actually within the time paid for according to the receipt on the app.

Send them a copy of the PCN and receipt. Parking receipt covers the time of offence, don't elaborate, don't go in to detail.

I suspect APCOA can show them NOT having a valid ticket for 40 mins at the start of the stay if they haven’t already done so on the PCN.

So? If that isn't on the ticket (and it doesn't sound like it is) then it's irrelevant, parking paid for at time of alleged offence.

The app thing is a bit of a red herring, legally, i feel  ... your phone battery might be flat, you might drop it on the floor breaking your phone etc...so you should always get 'some' grace to nip to the shop to get some change for the meter & pay cash.

It would be interesting to see if it would really stand up in court that to use the car park;

1. you have to have a smart phone,

2. have to have a signal,

3. have to have unused data allowance,

4. have to have a reasonable amount of battery remaining.

If it's 'app only', then would that not fall under 'unfair terms and conditions in consumer contract law', as if you've already driven into the car park, you are technically on the hook already - You should always have the option of nipping to the nearest shop to break a fiver, and pay cash if you need to.

You have checked you paid for the right reg, thats the most common mistake people make, miskey the reg or select the wrong car in the app. Also need to know exactly what the PCN says, is it not paying on entry, not paying for enough time, not paying at all. Different appeal depending on what they allege you did or didn't do.

Does the PCN mention POFA at all, if it doesn't your appeal is simply the PCN is not POFA compliant and therefore there is no obligation for you as the registered keeper to name the driver and as the PCN is not POFA compliant they can't hold you the keeper liable.

There are good reasons for having to pay in entry, if the tariffs drop later in the day and you pay late you may have bought enough hours but not at the right price.

Just to clear up some misconceptions. You get a consideration period when you arrive, it's a minimum of 5 minutes in most cases but can be longer. It will not be advertised. It's supposed to allow you to read the contract (signs) and decide whether you want to enter into the contract. If you don't you have the leave within the 5 minute consideration period.

A grace period is different and only applies if you were allowed to park in the car park, for example you paid for 3 hours of parking but it took some time get out of the car park. The minimum grace period is 10 minutes. It's either or, you don't get both.

The FLTA forums the new place for advice since PEPIPOO died. It's usually worth asking for advice before submitting and appeal.

@mattyfez none of that will be a useful defence. If you don't like the contract don't enter into it, read the sign and leave although in my opinion 5 minutes to make the decision is too short. There's plenty of app only car parks out there now, and those that do have a machine are more and more likely to be card only.

Bottom line is it's private land, the land owner sets the Ts & Cs, the parking company enforces them.

From the first post.

The PCN simply gives a time and date for the offense, the time given is actually within the time paid for according to the receipt on the app.

From my first post on the subject which the OP has so far not answered

Does the PCN say the actual times of your stay?

Just because the PCN is date stamped at the point they left the car park, does not mean there isn't other information on there. On the PCN that I described and (successfully) appealed earlier in the thread they included time and date stamped photos of my car entering and leaving the car park. If the PCN was for a longer stay than allowed they'd show arrival and departure evidence, hence why I'm asking if the OP is including ALL the info (and if not, why not??)

And to my point, if they calmly and reasonably explain the issue and show that they weren't evading, rather had material issues that caused a delay in payment that might get a better response than telling them to

go **** themselves.

which would certainly make me more likely to go and check what else I had that justifies the charge.

I had similar recently, although broken machine and then faulty app, and eventually paid by phone 26 mins after arrival.   They gave me a pcn, I appealed and they rejected my appeal and said I had to pay or go to the independent appeal process.   Sent exactly the same appeal document to the independent process i.e. I had a ticket and two days later it was cancelled.   So I would appeal, send them the receipt and a photo of the sign.   I think all the parking companies have to be signed up to one of the independent appeal processes.

@stumpyjon

Yes I totally get that... I'm just doing a bit of a 'thought experiment' if you like...

In terms of unfair conditions, for a start, you have to be able to read and understand the contract terms - what's the scenario here?

Is one supposed to block the entrance to the carpark, or stop on double yellows outside,  so you can take the time to read and understand the legaly binding contract you are about to enter into?

...it's a bit late if the contract is deemed 'signed and sealed' by the very act of driving into the carpark, surely that's unfair, as that contract is totally one sided and there's no room for negociation, or to decide to not enter into a contract, once you cross the threshold of the carpark.

as its a bit late if it’s deemed ‘signed and sealed’ by the very act of driving into the carpark.

It isn't.

Annex B of

BRITISHPARKING.CO.UK "https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW+Redesigned+Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf"

  (BPA code of practice)

requires both a minimum period of consideration for you to read/accept the T&Cs, and also a grace period at the end for accidental overstay. Varies per type of car park; the one exception is short stay / fast drop off type where necessary to maintain flow of traffic (eg: station or airport drop off) - but in that case the signage must be absolutely clear.

FWIW it also requires the Operator to review for potential for miskeying of Reg numbers (0 vs O) and various other error sources and is actually pretty fair at being on the side of the motorist rather than 'letter of the law'

Seems very harsh given you paid. But given the nature of these companies they will show no gesture of good will and will chase you on a technicality

I got one last year, addressed to me demanding payment. In scotland they need to send the charge to the driver at the time (it wasn't me), when i pointed this out they lied telling me I was obliged to tell them who was driving by law and if I didn't a court sheriff would decide if I had to disclose this info.

I wished them good luck with that, and haven't heard from them again.

So yeah, fxxx em in my opinion, a bunch of lying parasites.

Seems very harsh given you paid. But given the nature of these companies they will show no gesture of good will and will chase you on a technicality

Not in my experience. Of course, if your opening gambit is to tell them to **** off you might get a different answer.

I had similar recently, although broken machine and then faulty app, and eventually paid by phone 26 mins after arrival.   They gave me a pcn, I appealed and they rejected my appeal and said I had to pay or go to the independent appeal process.   Sent exactly the same appeal document to the independent process i.e. I had a ticket and two days later it was cancelled.   So I would appeal, send them the receipt and a photo of the sign.   I think all the parking companies have to be signed up to one of the independent appeal processes.

Its a game, 9 times out of 10 they reject the claim no matter the evidence, probably because at this stage a lot of people fold and pay, also because they're ****s. The independent appeal process costs them money (or at least POPLA does) so they aren't keen on that, I've had a couple back down at that point.

We've had POPLA rule in our favour when Mrs F parked in a disabled bay and forgot to display the badge (private car park, free to park, cheshire oaks) Mrs F got herself worked up about that one and would have paid, that's what they're relying on and that's why they reject most appeals.

requires both a minimum period of consideration for you to read/accept the T&Cs, and also a grace period at the end for accidental overstay.

So this is essentially the legal crux of the issue.

Next considerations are:

1) How long is the period of consideration for you to read & accept the proposed contract, or vacate the carpark without incurring a fine?

2) How long is the grace period at the end for accidental overstay?

If those two things are not defined, then I can't see how the contract is enforceable.

Or just do this and move on with your life:

Code of Practice again.

The consideration period has to be defined, as detailed in Annex A of previous link, but in short they will say something like 'Charges apply after 15 mins' or 'Parking Period commences 15 mins after entry'

The grace period AFAICT does not, because if you advertise that then people will then start treating 2 hours of parking to really be 2:10 or whatever. It's supposed to allow a bit of leeway, not be actively used. From your legalistic PoV you are liable for a ticket once your ticket expires, the fact you don't know how much extra they'll give you before ticketing doesn't materially impact your decision on whether you accept the contract terms.

It's not a popular position to take to defend the PPCs / BPA but if you set aside from very prejudiced views, possibly borne out of times when PPCs were clamping cowboys, and actually read the CoP then the rules are very balanced.

If people didn't overstay, or park and walk off only to finally pay best part of an hour later, PCNs wouldn't get issued.

What’s wrong with using your mobile data….. I’m sure you cannot get any mobile plan (Inc PAYGo) without data now.

My mum didn't. Her ancient monthly contract wouldn't even allow MMS.

In any case, it's perfectly plausible to run out of a monthly data allowance.

It’s pretty niche to have a car park located where there is no data access [how do you think the ANPR system sends it’s data?]

It's pretty common in more rural areas. There was a thread on here the other week with someone on a National Trust site having exactly this issue.

And again, if your credit has run out then it doesn't matter how much signal you have.

Bottom line is it’s private land, the land owner sets the Ts & Cs, the parking company enforces them.

It still has to be reasonable and fair. Otherwise the T&Cs could be forty pounds a minute with a mind-changing grace period of eight seconds.

I was at Wythenshawe hospital today. Parking was a complete bunfight and it wasn't a large carpark, maybe 100m long and two cars deep. From paying for parking inside to actually getting off site took maybe 15 minutes.

The grace period AFAICT does not, because if you advertise that then people will then start treating 2 hours of parking to really be 2:10 or whatever. It’s supposed to allow a bit of leeway, not be actively used. From your legalistic PoV you are liable for a ticket once your ticket expires, the fact you don’t know how much extra they’ll give you before ticketing doesn’t materially impact your decision on whether you accept the contract terms.

That being the case, the OP paid for 4 hours and parked for 3?

I'm being a pedant now, but...

The consideration period has to be defined, as detailed in Annex A

...Is 'Annex A' printed on the sign in full?  if not, how long is reasonable to look up 'Annexe A' and understand it fully, before entering into a contract?

Also consider your phone battery might be dead, or you don't have a mobile phone on you for whatever reason,  what can a reasonable person do? walk to the local library (if there is one) and see if you can use the internet there to spend an hour or so to consider the T&C's before making a choice?

Go and read the CoP if you really want to know. No, it isn't in full but it has examples of the info/phrases you have to use, such as the ones I put in my post.

‘Charges apply after 15 mins’ or ‘Parking Period commences 15 mins after entry’

which gives you the information you need in an understandable format. Along with various others such as the costs, and any penalty for non-compliance, etc.

It still has to be reasonable and fair. Otherwise the T&Cs could be forty pounds a minute with a mind-changing grace period of eight seconds.

Strictly, that could be the case for the first part, however as I said before Annex B outlines the minimum consideration period (not grace, grace is the extra they allow for minor overstays)  and 8s is below the minimum except for some very specific circumstances (even then I think the min there is 1 minute with signage having to be explicit - in normal situations it's at least 5, if not 10 minutes - it's all in the CoP). That gives you the time you need to decide you aren't paying £40 a minute and leave again, before parking is deemed to have started.

That being the case, the OP paid for 4 hours and parked for 3?

Apparently yes, trouble is that they paid for 4 hours starting 40 mins after they parked, so outside the consideration period detailed on signage as per the CoP, and hence in breach of the parking T&Cs.

If they explain no evasion has taken place and that the 40 min delay was due to technical issues, they might have a chance. If they go all belligerent and tell APCOA to **** off, possibly not.

Also consider your phone battery might be dead, or you don’t have a mobile phone on you for whatever reason,  what can a reasonable person do? walk to the local library (if there is one) and see if you can use the internet there to spend an hour or so to consider the T&C’s before making a choice?

You don't need to access the T&C by phone or internet, the relevant points are on the signage. Would you believe, it's all detailed in the CoP.

And as for phone not working so unable to pay (the OP's issue) - guess where?

NOTE 4: where a parking tariff is payable the operator should provide at least one
alternative means of payment, e.g. cash or credit card, cash or pay-by-phone etc.

or failing all else, don't park and leave within the consideration period.

Seriously, if I turn up at a shop and my battery has gone dead so I can't use my Google wallet, the shop's not obliged to let me have goods FOC, they want cash or me to produce a card. If you don't have a valid means of paying, don't park.

or failing all else, don’t park and leave within the consideration period.

Scenario:

My phone battery is dead, I'm already in the car park, how do I find out what the 'consideration period' is before I decide if I want to enter into a contract?

Seriously, if I turn up at a shop and my battery has gone dead so I can’t use my Google wallet, the shop’s not obliged to let me have goods FOC

You're not trying to complete a contract of sale, for goods as a consumer in this scenario, you are considering if you want to enter into a service contract... how would I do that with a dead phone, and do I need to look up 'Annexa A' or 'CoP'...what even does CoP mean in this context?

These signs are gonna need to get really big!

My phone battery is dead, I’m already in the car park, how do I find out what the ‘consideration period’ is before I decide if I want to enter into a contract?

You read it on the sign. It's required to be on it. To be a BPA member you agree to the Code of Practice (CoP) and that states in the annex what has to be on the signage, in clear text and language (it even tells the types of fonts!) so a user can make an informed choice.

You might need a phone to pay (but as above, they should offer an alternative such as a machine) but you don't need a phone to access the relevant T&C's.

I really don't understand what is so hard, and what you don't get.

I really don’t understand what is so hard, and what you don’t get.

It’s because people think they are a special case.

A mobile is an essential tool today but hey I’ll not bother getting any data or making sure my phone is charged because it’s someone else fault for not catering to my lack of planning. In the scenario above simply don’t park and take it as a life lesson to be better prepared next time.

If they go all belligerent and tell APCOA to **** off, possibly not.

😀

Really got under your skin that hasn't it? As you've mentioned it in just about every post since.

I'm beginning to think you work for a ticketing company and you've taken it as a personal attack.

I don't think it is reasonable to insist that anyone wanting to park needs to have a working mobile phone. OTOH if they don't, they need to have some other means of payment available. Just walking off and aiming to pay at some later time seems a bit foolish and 40 mins is pushing your luck I'd say but I accept no intent to defraud so maybe you'll get away with it.

On a slightly different note but sort of related. One of the car parks I use (its subsidised on home match days) can be a bit hit or miss. They have pay machines and also the use of the app.

There have been a couple of instances where the machines are out of order so you have to use the app but the area has poor signal so you have to go else where to get a decent enough signal and pay.

Then you find that they really are out to get you as

1) you find that the app will charge you a booking fee in addition to the parking fee

2) that after 18.00 until 06.00 the machine charge overnight is £1 whereas the app will charge you the hourly rate for the overnight stay and also the additional booking fee.

Luckily enough I've not had a PCN from them.

Really got under your skin that hasn’t it? As you’ve mentioned it in just about every post since.

I’m beginning to think you work for a ticketing company and you’ve taken it as a personal attack.

I don't, but I am perhaps seeing this from a different angle on the basis of past experience which is why comments like yours annoy me.

As well as finding them reasonable when approached reasonably, I had a need to contract with a firm in a previous life. I've told this before but:

I managed a firm that had it's own car park for employees just outside the town centre.

This was used by residents out of hours and at weekends. We had a good arrangement, as long as they vacated weekdays by 8am, etc.

Then some people started pushing the rules - so we'd have to go and ask people to move so we could park. If we couldn't find them, I ended paying for parking on expenses for my staff to park in the town centre car parks.

Then they got pushed some more. It reached a head when i was threatened with violence for getting cross with someone when they'd pushed it one too many times. The police told me it was a civil matter on private property and recommended contracting a PPC, or putting barriers in (in which case everyone gets penalised for the actions of a few, when we lock the gate at 5pm and weekends) When I spoke to some of the PPCs, I was impressed by the rules and CoP they have to adhere to, hence why I am a bit more clued up on it.

If people didn't push the boundary of fairness, paid for the facilities they use, follow basic rules, then we wouldn't need PPC. People don't, so we do.

So when someone clearly has not followed the rules (taken 40 mins to pay) and now got pinged for it, to have your response to tell the PPC to **** off over some imagined technicality (which I still don't entirely believe, I've answered a few PCN threads before and commonly the OP often hasn't been entirely truthful about the details) says more about your approach than mine, I think.

so I made the assumption that there was a facility to set the time within the app.

I think most apps don't allow this for the reason @tjagain points out. Scenario: you park (with no intention to pay), get ticketed for not paying, go to the app, backdate your start time, and voila you're in the clear, it's not what you tried to do obviously, but you just got swept up in the by the rules to stop people who do.

Wow, this appears to have blown up when I wasn't looking....

To answer a couple of the specific questions:

The PCN only has a single time, and no additional info like arrival and departure times.  The time given is probably the departure time and is within the start/end time on the ticket receipt.

There are no payment machines etc, however, as required, there is an alternative payment method.   That method is to pay up to 24 hours later via their website.  It was this that made me too relaxed about immediate payment, after all, if you can pay 24 hours later, surely 40 minutes isn't a problem?  This issue is that this retrospective payment isn't available via the app, this limitation isn't clear on the signage and of course, you can't see it on the app until after it's downloaded.

Or tell them you are Harry Buttle and you seem to have received a PCN for Tuttle by mistake

Unfortunatly, no flies on the typewriter, the name is correct so I can't use that argument.

If people didn’t push the boundary of fairness, paid for the facilities they use, follow basic rules, then we wouldn’t need PPC. People don’t, so we do.

To a point, but the issue is these companies are run by scumbags who use lies and intimidation to get you to pay.

I once got a ticket for parking a new car in a very small carpark and entering a wrong digit (from my reg) on the app. It must have been absolutely clear to them that I was entitled to be there and it was a genuine mistake, but even when I pointed this out they rejected my appeal. Luckily the Dr's surgery I had parked at intervened on my behalf.

Fairness works both ways..ever since then my attitude has been fxxx you..they won't get a penny out of me if it's at all avoidable.

I don’t think it is reasonable to insist that anyone wanting to park needs to have a working mobile phone. OTOH if they don’t, they need to have some other means of payment available.

If they won’t cover the cost of alternatives it’s likely a business decision that the additional revenue of non mobile users doesn’t cover the investment in machines. Council run parking may decide otherwise but no one is forced to park.

I once got a ticket for parking a new car in a very small carpark and entering a wrong digit (from my reg) on the app. It must have been absolutely clear to them that I was entitled to be there and it was a genuine mistake, but even when I pointed this out they rejected my appeal. Luckily the Dr’s surgery I had parked at intervened on my behalf.

Fairness works both ways..ever since then my attitude has been fxxx you..they won’t get a penny out of me if it’s at all avoidable.

Not disputing but when was this? They are regularly updating their best practices and the CoP now requires

Where the terms and conditions require the driver to supply their vehicle registration mark
at an on-site machine, by telephone or online, the parking operator must have and follow a
documented policy and procedure to avoid issuing or enforcing a parking charge in respect
of accidental keying errors. This should include the adoption of technologies that reduce
keying errors.
NOTE 1: Some common keying errors can be accommodated within the registration
system, for example confusing the letter “o” with the numeric symbol “0”; More information
is found in Annex F.

So under current CoP that appeal would be justified.

Back in the bad old days they were cowboys, but I don't think that it's anywhere near as bad nowadays. YMMV.

OP - The PCN only has a single time, and no additional info like arrival and departure times.  The time given is probably the departure time and is within the start/end time on the ticket receipt.

So seems to me that's the basis of your appeal. Up to you whether you disclose that you didn't pay until 40 mins after parking started. Disclosing is admitting breach; OTOH not disclosing might make them wonder why the computer has ticketed you, make them look into it and identify the breach - in which case would they consider you weren't being completely honest with your appeal and make it less likely to uphold than if you told them the real story.

As I said before, if having the time of departure bracketed by a valid ticket is all you need why pay for your real parking, just buy a ticket for the minimum time on your return and then use that as your appeal (not saying that's what you did, to be clear)

 but I don’t think that it’s anywhere near as bad nowadays

Stayed at a hotel recently that had a contractor CP, I didn't check the car in, totally my fault,  got a ticket through the post. showed them the invoice and receipt for hotel room, and they said, that's fine thanks, there's an "admin" fee; which was conveniently only a little bit less than the fine...While that might be in the CoP, and the T&C that they have with the hotel, that's still a shitty way to do business - which is getting people to pay for parking, not going after them for money you've not earned,  and the hotel intervened to get them to back off.

As with any business sector, they get the a rep they generally deserve.

no additional info like arrival and departure times. The time given is probably the departure time

Huh?

As with any business sector, they get the a rep they generally deserve.

Remind me - you run a GP practice don't you 😉

touche 😉

in 2021, I received a similar PCN from a management company in Solihull.  I appealed stating that I had paid and providing a screenshot of my payment in the parking app.  It was timed five minutes after my entry to the car park as there was no signal in that car park so they initially rejected my appeal.  I then provided a screenshot of my location and then a copy of my signal - evidence there was no connectivity.  Eventually, they cancelled the charge, incorrectly stating ‘goodwill’.

On an earlier occasion, Parking Eye sent me several PCN’s via post in 2019, despite me paying for parking on a monthly basis with the hotel.  I used to reply to them with scanned copies of my paid invoices for parking.

After receiving PCN’s for the same period I had already sent them a scanned copy of my paid invoice for in a previous appeal.  I appealed again stating that I had provided them with that information already and the PCN reference it had been provided with.  As part of my response, I requested a copy of all the personal information they held of me, and an explanation of the process they went through including diligence checks and my accusation of their incompetence.  Parking Eye did not respond and just kept sending me reminders and kept doing so until 2023 .  They have not sent me any since then - but I still retain hard and electronic copies of my invoices and hard copies of the PCN’s - just in case.

I also sent them a separate letter and email, informing them that I would be prepared to meet with them in court with all of my evidence - including charges for my time.  Again they failed to respond.  The charges for my time completely outweigh the charges made in their PCN’s.

I have no problem with the concept of paying for parking and would rather pay for a secure car park than park on the street.  I do have a problem with PCN’s incorrectly issued.

Not disputing but when was this? They are regularly updating their best practices and the CoP now requires

About 2014 ish. They may update their codes of practice regularly but that doesn't mean they are not a bunch of chancing shysters who actually adhere to them.

I've had two experiences with parking companies, the one above, and my previous example where they point blank lied and said I was obliged to tell them who was driving the car. So please forgive me if I feel their codes of practice aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I don’t, but I am perhaps seeing this from a different angle on the basis of past experience which is why comments like yours annoy me.

As well as finding them reasonable when approached reasonably, I had a need to contract with a firm in a previous life. I’ve told this before but:

I managed a firm that had it’s own car park for employees just outside the town centre.

This was used by residents out of hours and at weekends. We had a good arrangement, as long as they vacated weekdays by 8am, etc.

Then some people started pushing the rules – so we’d have to go and ask people to move so we could park. If we couldn’t find them, I ended paying for parking on expenses for my staff to park in the town centre car parks.

Then they got pushed some more. It reached a head when i was threatened with violence for getting cross with someone when they’d pushed it one too many times. The police told me it was a civil matter on private property and recommended contracting a PPC, or putting barriers in (in which case everyone gets penalised for the actions of a few, when we lock the gate at 5pm and weekends) When I spoke to some of the PPCs, I was impressed by the rules and CoP they have to adhere to, hence why I am a bit more clued up on it.

If people didn’t push the boundary of fairness, paid for the facilities they use, follow basic rules, then we wouldn’t need PPC. People don’t, so we do.

So when someone clearly has not followed the rules (taken 40 mins to pay) and now got pinged for it, to have your response to tell the PPC to **** off over some imagined technicality (which I still don’t entirely believe, I’ve answered a few PCN threads before and commonly the OP often hasn’t been entirely truthful about the details) says more about your approach than mine, I think.

Dealing with them as a customer rather than the accused is most likely a different experience, they want to make money from ticketing people in your car park so they want to look and act like a professional company.

Every single one I've dealt with have come across more like debt collectors, as others have already said they use tactics to intimidate and bully people into paying charges they don't owe. You keep mentioning CoP, yes they all are supposed to adhere to these but in my own experience they treat these more as guidelines, picking and choosing which ones to ignore to suit themselves.

Not one single ticket we've received has been justified, or been paid by us. We don't park where were not supposed to, because it's a dick move, but we still received tickets parking and paying for those stays.

Just for the record, I don't pick up the phone and shout **** off down it the moment a ticket hits the mat, cup of tea and a biscuit first 😉

Wow, this appears to have blown up when I wasn’t looking….

To answer a couple of the specific questions:

The PCN only has a single time, and no additional info like arrival and departure times.  The time given is probably the departure time and is within the start/end time on the ticket receipt.

There are no payment machines etc, however, as required, there is an alternative payment method.   That method is to pay up to 24 hours later via their website.  It was this that made me too relaxed about immediate payment, after all, if you can pay 24 hours later, surely 40 minutes isn’t a problem?  This issue is that this retrospective payment isn’t available via the app, this limitation isn’t clear on the signage and of course, you can’t see it on the app until after it’s downloaded.

Not a chance in hell I'd be paying that.

They're crooks and the CoP isn't worth the paper it's written on. They deliberately hide behind poorly worded and incomplete information, as you seem to be finding out sadly.

The independent appeal process costs them money (or at least POPLA does) so they aren’t keen on that, I’ve had a couple back down at that point.

I’m not sure POPLA is all that effective given the Trust Pilot scores. Worth a read of the reviews if you fancy a game of compoface bingo.

We don’t park where were not supposed to, because it’s a dick move, but we still received tickets parking and paying for those stays.

Nor do I so when I got a ticket for the Cornwall beach example, I appealed giving the reasons and the evidence that they were wrong, and got a wholly satisfactory response.

Hi Jon,

Please accept my sincere apologies for the inconvenience caused. The ANPR cameras did not capture your vehicle registration leaving from the 27th of October, it was matched with the nearest date, this being the 1st of November.

We can confirm that we have cancelled the PCN issued to vehicle registration XXXXX for the stay on 1st November 2024.

No payments are due for the most recent stay as I have created an exemption for your vehicle via our back-office system.

- but I must confess in my appeal at no point did I tell them to go **** themselves.

Errors happen. PPC is not in error for ticketing the OP - they breached T&C's by not paying in a timely manner. The PPC may technically be in error for the absolute information on the PCN not being complete.

but I must confess in my appeal at no point did I tell them to go **** themselves.

You should try it, it's cathartic 😀

It's used after the (failed) appeal, not before, that would be silly.

@tonyf1

Judged in our favour when we used them, we've only used them the once but worked as it should when we did.

It’s used after the (failed) appeal, not before, that would be silly.

If you'd only said that yesterday instead of coming in all guns blazing, we could have saved all this discussion!

If you’d only said that yesterday instead of coming in all guns blazing, we could have saved all this discussion!

My advice was worth exactly what you paid for it 😀

OP is at that point now though, two options, pay it or tell them to do one.

My advice was worth exactly what you paid for it

I'd say it was worth less than that as was likely to antagonise the person dealing with it and less likely to 'be reasonable' as a result.

My advice remains

So seems to me that [that you have a ticket that covers the time the ticket was issued] is the basis of your appeal. Up to you whether you disclose that you didn’t pay until 40 mins after parking started. Disclosing is admitting breach; OTOH not disclosing might make them wonder why the computer has ticketed you, make them look into it and identify the breach – in which case would they consider you weren’t being completely honest with your appeal and make it less likely to uphold than if you told them the real story.

I’m not sure POPLA is all that effective given the Trust Pilot scores. Worth a read of the reviews if you fancy a game of compoface bingo.

Ohhh I would argue that they are effective, if you play by the rules and the CP operator makes stuff up as they go along POPLA can be quite helpful.

If anyone can buck the system it's Harry Tuttle!