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Mrs B parked and paid for parking in a car park controlled by smart parking. The system required that she input the reg number, and for reasons she isn’t clear on she didn’t do this.
They sent us a parking charge notice, we appealed with a photo of her parking ticket, which covered the time in question. However, that appeal was rejected (no reg number, therefore not meeting t &c’s). Do we suck this one up and pay the £60 (before it becomes £100......) or is there any value in taking it to POPLA appeal? Irritating to pay a fine when she actually paid for a ticket, but undeniable that she didn’t put the reg in.
cheers!
I would argue they have a flawed system which allowed the printing of an ineligible / non valid parking ticket. I'd be refuting that myself.
I would, on a point of principal, appeal it.
she has paid for her parking, and she has the proof.
Whether that appeal will be successful is another matter of course.
nah. she didnt put the reg in. tough luck i'd say, 10 cars could all use the same photo with the same story.
10 cars could all use the same photo with the same story.
Presumably she can prove she paid it, given it's a smart system?
My LA (Scotchand) pauses the process/fee escalation if you appeal, I'd want to push back on this but is there a risk fo the £100 due to delay? Seems unfair.
Yeah, they paused the ‘discount’ period while they considered our appeal, have rejected it so now it’s pay up £60 or take the appeal to POPLA and if unsuccessful pay £100.
She should appeal it. If the proof of payment has date, time etc.
She will need to get a reference number from the parking cowboys in order to take it to POPLA. She should do this pronto as there will be a time limit.
Forget about appealing to the parking company, they say “No, sorry, you have to pay” as a default response. Just go straight to POPLA.
If it's a LA one, you might be okay - I had a couple in the space of a few weeks where they'd implemented an app-based payment solution, but it defaulted to one particular registration (we have two cars) so if you were distracted you could buy parking for the wrong car.
I appealed the tickets on the basis that I had paid, and they rescinded the tickets. That said, the basis of doing so was that at the machine there was no requirement to add your registration, so in your case the same arguments might not work.
If it's a private operator I suspect they'll just reject any appeal.
Presumably she can prove she paid it, given it’s a smart system?
sure but can she prove in which car? I'm already in too deep! good luck either way OP
She should appeal it. If the proof of payment has date, time etc.
Smart sytem or not how do you prove the ticket relates to a particular car ?
I would argue they have a flawed system which allowed the printing of an ineligible / non valid parking ticket.
This, all the machines around by me won't print out untill you've put your reg in. I'd be arguing this point if you chose to appeal.
I'm usually a proponent of 'commit the crime, do the time' on these, even in respect of people looking for loopholes to get out of not paying or overstaying.
But in this case, despite it being a mistake and clearly she's in the wrong acc to the 'rules' it seems like a genuine error* and not an attempt to avoid paying. I'd be inclined to go to POPLA but I'd also be inclined that there's a better than average chance that you'll lose your appeal and have to pay the increased fine
* ignorance is not a defence, i know, but.....
How much are my prinicples worth........£40?
Just remember all those times you've lucked out and not got a ticket, then pay the fine it's a lot less hassle.
There is a lot of us and we in the OP. Looks like it was her mistake, let her deal with it!
now it’s pay up £60 or take the appeal to POPLA and if unsuccessful pay £100.
Harsh, and unfair IMO. I hope our system is better.
Smart sytem or not how do you prove the ticket relates to a particular car ?
Link account/payment to her, link her to owner of car.
If the machine is issuing tickets without requiring a registration, are the t&cs stating this clearly displayed in the car park?
I'd be appealing this one, TBH. Proof of payment/ticket issued.
Link account/payment to her, link her to owner of car.
All that proves is she bought a ticket and she ownes that car. Not that the ticket was bought for that car. It would be good enough for me, but these people don't care, they just want your money.
Didn't someone on here get a ticket because they put one number of the reg in wrong ?
If the ticket isn't valid why did they sell it to her...
Get your self over to https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163 Money Saving Expert parking forum or Pepipoo.
It's defendable but there is no silver bullet and you have to understand the points by which you defend / appeal.
The whole industry is based on scams / bullying / lying and incorrect threats of legal action / CCJs etc. It can go that way ultimately but get yourself up to speed.
It's not a fine it's actually a charge based on an alleged contract made when you parked.
DON'T ADMIT WHO WAS DRIVING
Ignore is bad advice these days.
A decent POPLA should get you off but don't rush it and put it on MSE forum before you submit.
Get your self over to https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163 Money Saving Expert parking forum or Pepipoo
This is the £40 question - not principles, but [i]time, hassle, and being arsed[/i] to go through it all. Worth it?
IMHO yes. If you can. There are lots of people who did park / pay but still get a ticket. Bad signage / machines not working / unreliable ANPR. Cowboy companies run by former clampers in a badly regulated industry. Not much better than crooks so if you have the time and the know how yes, fight it all the way. Don't give in.
Rule number one - Never admit who was driving.
Rule number two - Complain like ****.
First port of call is always the landowner or business the carpark is for.
I've just had a Parking Eye ticket quashed by Aldi customer services whos store the car park was for. 12 minute overstay on an hour and a half.
This is the £40 question – not principles, but time, hassle, and being arsed to go through it all. Worth it?
I think the parking company's hope all people are like that and are either can't be bothered or have so much spare money that chucking £40/60/100 down the drain isn't an issue to them!
In my black and white way of looking at it she's paid the fee to park there so why should she pay the fine.
All that proves is she bought a ticket and she ownes that car. Not that the ticket was bought for that car. It would be good enough for me, but these people don’t care, they just want your money.
It's now up to the appeal folk (POPLA?), isn't it?
The whole industry is based on scams / bullying / lying and incorrect threats of legal action / CCJs etc.
That, and the fact that the law around this appears to be a steaming pile of poo, and the argument that using someone's land to park on shoudn't be free, which seems reasonable to me.
Appeal.
The 'system' that they are using is open to continuing errors by many motorists to come.
If the registration number is not entered then the machine should not be printing the ticket.
Effectively, they are printing and issuing a ticket that does not meet their published terms and conditions.
By not challenging this, and letting the operator to continue means that they are knowingly allowing other motorists to fall into the same chargeable trap.
Now entering an incorrect reg number is a different case altogether.
I'm likely to be going through the tail end of this procedure soon. I rejected a parking charge by email - not in a legal manner - and 2.5 years later I've had the debt collectors "threatening" letter before being passed back to parking firm who "could" take court action.
As above, MSE is going to be my bible should it go any further.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
I was in White Moss car park in the Lakes, one where you put your reg number in on leaving to calculate charge based on length of stay. When I put reg in, it came up with nothing - couldn't find my car. What could I do? I was perfectly willing to pay but their system didn't let me. In their response to my rejection, they stated that plenty of clear signage was there to say I could pay online afterwards; this is very subjective and clearly not clear enough as I didn't see it. Maybe in hindsight I would have paid at the ealry stage but out of principal, I find their case ridiculous so will happily fight it to the end if needs be.
On this note, if anyone lives near White Moss, please get in touch - I need photos of the car park 🙂
Ignorance is a defence if the system is flawed or so complicated that it is unreasonable.
If a ticket is issued then surely the ticket must be valid!
I’m at County Court stage with one of mine. I’ll fight them to the death.
They generally have such contradict t&c’s that you could argue both ways so as to be purposefully ambiguous and reject any appeal.
I am more than happy to let the courts decide...
So, the fine is not for parking without paying, it is for not putting the reg number in? That can't be lawful, it certainly isn't reasonable or proportionate. I would appeal, you should always stand up to fact strangling bullies!
It's definitely worth going to the owner of the land on whose behalf the car park operator is working. I had a row with one over the summer- their payment machine wasn't working, but they still hit me with a parking charge.
Appealed to the contractor- rejected without even reading it
Appealed to POPLA- rejected for some pretty crap reasons
In parallel I had been talking to the owner of the land and when I got to the right person there she just said "Oh yes. They issued loads of incorrect notices in June. I'll tell them to cancel it". Which is fine for me but how many other victims of incorrect notices just paid up though?
Also remember that the CCJ threat is bollocks That only applies if it goes to court, you lose and still don't pay.
I appealed to a fine in Cheltenham. It was a Council CP. The app somehow sent the wrong ref of parking place using location data and had me parking down the road. They were fine after a phone call and proof of purchase.
edit: I saw an awful car park in Braunton, Devon last week. The car park uses ANPR for enforcement so they will charge you if you enter, realise it’s not free and leave. The warning signs aren’t easily read. I think they’d not win any appeals....