[Closed] Parking charge scum

You think they're providing a service? why should the council absorb the admin fee?

I think they are allowed to add on reasonable costs to obtain the money. I would argue £60 for a letter being sent isn't reasonable. IANAL though.

You think they're providing a service? why should the council absorb the admin fee?

It's not the council, it was private land, and this is a parking charge, not a fine.

It is of course wildly unreasonable for them to pass on to another letter sending people who then pass onto a third. It's a total scam.

Second letter adding on £60 was from a debt collection agency:

"However, in some cases a debt collection agency may continue adding interest and charges. They can only add amounts which are allowed in the contract you signed with the original creditor."

Www.Pepipoo.com

Scam it probably is - when they've got you bent over a barrel they're going to shaft you. But you could say the same of Solicitors. They won't look at you without hitting you with a charge. How much would a Solicitor charge to issue a letter on your behalf? The fact it is probably only 5 minutes work is irrelevant.

It's a total scam.

I'm gonna guess that the 'scum' in the title is a typo, then...

🙂

They've got you by the balls.

There is a £60 admin fee for me making this post.

Seriously, go to the pepipoo forum for advice

You'll get so much wrong advice here

My wife got one of these two days ago (her permit sticker fell off the windscreen). Checked MSE, sent amended template email...ticket cancelled next day.

Keep polite and follow advice on MSE or Pepipoo. Don't listen to anyone that tells you to ignore.

Pepipoo seems to consist of people trying to wriggle out of charges through legal chicanery. Not interested in that - I can expense parking costs whilst at work 🙂

Just disputing the extra £60 on top for nothing.

How can it possibly cost £100 for a parking space for a working day? Give them the amount for the number of hours you parked, they can't possibly be out of pocket.

Parking fines like this are fraudulent BS. Follow the templated instructions on the MSE Parking Tickets forum > Newbies thread and you'll be fine. I've overturned 3 out of 3 tickets using their methods.

Such firms make millions from those who pay up. You are rarely obliged to pay - all you have to do is reverse the system and you're in the clear.

Exactly. All on-site parking was full. They aren't out of pocket at all.

They aren't out of pocket at all.

So legal chicanery then...

Mate, just go [url= http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163 ]here [/url]and then read this [url= http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?s=0088e364f74f839f1fb7d86445aa77f2&t=4816822 ]post[/url].

Set up an MSE account and post any questions you have.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY. BUT YOU DO HAVE TO TAKE ACTION TO PREVENT PAYING.

I have read it. It's a lot of work and hassle.

I will pay it, then claim it on expenses. Company is obliged to provide parking for us - this was legal parking, it just cost £100. I haven't got the stomach for a quasi legal battle.

I'm going to pay the £100 and query the £60.

Your expenses policy must be very generous if it will pick up this charge.

In which case get them to [b]pay[/b] your expenses before you forfeit the ability to cancel the fine.

Our company run a similar policy. Parking is managed through a [s]private firm[/s] bunch of ****s disguised as such. If an employee fails to display a permit or parks in another company's bay then a PCN is issued. I've successfully overturned 2 of these because they are complete BS. When we took over the building HR paid only the first couple of fines, then said "tough, you know the rules ... it's not hard to park in the bay you previously booked and display your permit ... you pay the fine or fight it".

Bottom line: I wouldn't expect my employer to settle this particular tab on my behalf.

Our expenses guys would come and give you a chinese burn if you tried that.

We've a contract that says the client must provide parking. They didn't - I didn't get a booked space, and all the other marked spaces were full. The only space available was on the road, and it costs £100 to park there.

Can't see a problem with that.

In which case get them to pay your expenses before you forfeit the ability to cancel the fine.

I can't claim an expense until I've incurred it.

Can't see a problem with that.

Good luck with that. So you're about to get into protracted arguments with an employer/client but arguing with a parking company is a hassle?

How do you know the arguments will be protracted?

molgrips - Member

How do you know the arguments will be protracted?

[img] [/img]

molgrips - Member
How do you know the arguments will be protracted?

Mate, just go here and then read this post.

That is an intimidating amount of legal chicanery. I really don't I can handle that currently.

What did you actually have to do to get yours overturned?

CountZero - Member
How can it possibly cost £100 for a parking space for a working day?

Pepipoo seems to consist of people trying to wriggle out of charges through legal chicanery. Not interested in that - I can expense parking costs whilst at work

Don't you mean full of people who are not prepared to pull their pants down, bend over and take a deep dicking from a group of Cowboys! Besides, you love a good argument - getting stuck into this sort of thing with a parking company would be perfect for you?

Despite the advice on the Pepipoo forum, if it's too much hassle to appeal just do what I and lots of others do and just marvel at the increasing amount at red ink on each letter before binning said letters. Do this all the time and they always give up eventually.

If there was no parking at the office then why didn't you just ask them when you got there, or phone when you arrived to see if they could sort a space for you? If you didn't make any effort to do this then why should your work accept responsibiliy for your bad parking?

sist of people trying to wriggle out of charges through legal chicanery. Not interested in that - I can expense parking costs whilst at work

So it's OK for your employer to foot the Bill and then somewhere else in your company someone is getting fired / not getting a pay rise becuase the expenses bill got used irresponsibly.

Op starts a moral dilemma within a moral dilemma thread hipocrisy...

All I'll say is, if you've parked where I think you've parked, they will go all the way to small claims court. I speak from experience, twice 🙁

Echo spacemonkey's post. Go to the MSE forums read the sticky and appeal. They can't charge a £60 administration fee.

Would be interested to know who the issuing company is?

All I'll say is, if you've parked where I think you've parked, they will go all the way to small claims court. I speak from experience, twice

Really????? Hardly worth their while I'd have thought as pursuing any claim would cost them more in time/money than they'd gain from it? Not sustainable for them to take more than a few cases to court every now and then. Unless of course they're using the odd court case here or there, and the publicity around it, to try and put the willies up people. Sounds like you've been incredibly unlucky!

I've had around 6 tickets over the last couple of years, think at least three of them were from Parking Eye who have a reputation for getting all legal. Never been taken to court yet. So at best guess have saved somewhere in the region of £600 - £1,000 and a whole load of hassle just by binning (or in the winter when the fire needs fuel, burning) the said letters. What would the court award if I got taken there, couple of hundred quid maximum? Still quids in and worth the risk I'd say.

£100 is ridiculous, never mind the £60. Even in central London a days parking is £25-50

These sort of charges should be illegal. Obviously you have to manage client relationship but seems obvious you should remind them of the need to provide a space and of charges if they don't

[i]Middle of most major cities quite easy...
Some near where I was today were the equivalent of 12-15/hour [/i]

It's cheaper to pay someone to drive your car/van round for the day than park it and pay for the space in London now.

@agent pursuing the charge is worth it if they are confident they will win. Fact is they have people who chase people for a living, its their job. If they are not chasing people they have nothing to do

@agent pursuing the charge is worth it if they are confident they will win. Fact is they have people who chase people for a living, its their job. If they are not chasing people they have nothing to do

Nope not worth it at all, especially when you consider that the going rate for the sort of penalty/fees/costs the courts award seems to average in the region of £175. Costs to parking company of initially around £30 to register a case with the court, and around £300 if it actually goes to court. Then there's the costs of employing someone at the company to manage these cases, paperwork, and also the cost for a solicitor should the case actually go to court.

Then there's the out of court settlements - typically parking companies will settle for around 50% of the actual charge should they issue proceedings but the driver negotiates with them to pay a lower amount rather than go to court.

The only benefit to them is that by taking a tiny percentage of people to court (normally the soft targets), it perhaps puts the fear of god into the remaining 99.9% who would have otherwise just ignored the letters.

Think I'll just keep on binning/burning letters - easiest way. In the unlikely event they actually take me to court (i.e. I've received official court notification and not just a threatening letter in red ink telling me of their intention to take me to court) then I'd just settle before for 50% off the bill at that stage. Simples!

then I'd just settle before for 50% off the bill at that stage. Simples

Or follow the advice on Pepipoo and pay nothing 🙄

Or follow the advice on Pepipoo and pay nothing

Yes true, but that involves work - and when I'm being billed to clients at an hourly rate then it's just not worth it! Far easier to just ignore and 100% success rate with this route so far. No costs, no work, free fuel for the fire, it's a win-win I'd say.

Or follow the advice on Pepipoo and pay nothing

It's far from simple though. This lot seem better organised than some cowboys. There's a sign (although it has small lettering) - I parked there because with dozens of other cars I gambled that it wasn't being enforced. I don't think I have the stomach to play hardball and risk CCJs. It'd involve poring through legal documents being my own defence lawyer, which is hugely stressful.

I did actually park under the sign.

I'm quite tempted to pay the £100 and see what they do about the £60.

I don't think I have the stomach to play hardball and risk CCJs

A CCJ can only go against your credit history if you fail to pay it within 30 days of the judgement. If you pay up no one will be any the wiser.

[url= https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/dealing-with-county-court-judgements-ccjs ]CCJ's[/url]

Very, very unlikely to go that far though and if you get an actual court summons, just settle pre-court for a discounted fee.

I'll be honest, I've had council parking tickets in the past, I always pay them - like council tax they have all the ammo they need to ruin your day, they're not subject to usal laws and rules.

Private parking fees? Yeah, nice try, file them in the bin.

The simple fact is that it's more profitable to send out say 100 'fines' a day, 25% will pay though fear, of the remaining 75% maybe 25% will pay if you keep sending letters, but 50% will never pay unless you take them to court.

They make more money from the 50% (guessing that figure) who pay through fear, it's not profitable to chase the other 50% as proving liability is a nightmare and Yes I'm aware there have been some court cases to make an example, but they're very rare.

I've had 3 in the last few years, 2 from the Cinema complex in Cardiff Bay, seems I walked into the wrong shop from the wrong part of the car park and one from a local hospital, my wife, who worked there parked in the staff section as is her right, but she took my car to work that day. She told the guy on duty, he said it was fine, they sent us a bill, we explained what happened, they didn't care - told them to kiss the ring, they said they'd sue, bring it on bitches.

They gave up, pussies.

A couple of years back, I parked in one of the few electric car bays and put a ticket in the window. Never noticed it was an electric car bay only until I found a ticket stuck to the car window - parking in the wrong bay.

Pepipoo had some good advice - took some photos of the bays, took some photos of other bays the council had in the city that were clearly marked unlike this one, pointed out that they had used non-standard signage - and it was over turned.

IHN seems to have parked in the same spot on the same site before me and he says it went to court. That doesn't fill me with confidence.

As said, this lot seem to know what they are doing, and I did park under the signs.

It'd involve poring through legal documents being my own defence lawyer, which is hugely stressfu

It actually doesnt

They make more money from the 50% (guessing that figure) who pay through fear, it's not profitable to chase the other 50%

if you get an actual court summons, just settle pre-court for a discounted fee.

It actually doesnt

Ok.. that's what it looked like...? What did you actually have to do?

Those people that are happy to wriggle out of parking illegally over minor legal technicalities (or challenge speeding tickets when they know they were speeding because they police havn't calibrated camera today, etc.). How many are the same ones that don't like the potential that people are evaluating not invoking Article 50 because there may be legal inconsistencies over whether a referendum has that power.

Moral > legal or the other way round, but not both when it suits you.

These sort of charges should be illegal.

The court ruled that a 'penalty' charge is legal and it can / needs to be high enough to provide a deterrent to parking there.

[quote=molgrips ]It actually doesnt
Ok.. that's what it looked like...? What did you actually have to do?

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=83803

It's usually

Appeal to PPC using template letter which will be rejected
Appeal to POPLA using template letter which will be accepted

Literally two letters.

However the fact you ignored the original ticket and they've passed it to a debt collector (which is just another desk in whatever portakabin they operate from) makes it more of a hassle.

You will get a lot more threatening letters
They may give up if you ignore them
You may get taken to court

Who is the parking company?

What did you actually have to do to get yours overturned?

Can't remember exactly but it's along these lines:

- reply to parking firm (PF) disputing legality of PCN and request a POPLA appeal code
- PF reply saying "Sorry pal, your letter is just a standard template stolen from one of several online forums ... you owe us the money ... pay up pal" They are also obliged to include a legit POPLA appeal code
- reply to PF countering each of their "claims as to why they have you owing money
- PF will either choose not to respond (as it costs them time and money to take further) in which case you pay nothing, or they will pretty much say the same sh1t again
- raise POPLA appeal online (using code) and list what the PF is lying about

Basically, as said before, plenty of private parking firms behave fraudulently. They threaten people into paying up, hence easy money.

FTR, the PF that I overturned twice, provided me with fake POPLA codes (that had expired 1 year before, hence preventing me from pursuing them). I just contacted a chap at the ombudsman and he said "Yes, that particular firm are known for doing that ... I've warned them several times and will now do so again .. here's how to turn that code into a legitimate one .. then go online, raise your appeal and job done." I did as he said and won both appeals. Paid nothing.

PFs really are a bunch of *s. I *ing hate them.

EDIT: get an account on MSE and create a new thread stating the name of the parking firm to see what feedback you get. Also search for them in the "cases won" thread. Only a small number play real hardball all the way and take people to court. Even then, they only win a minority of cases.

People lose mainly when they stray from the correct procedure, eg don't reply within the time frame specified etc.

Yet again we have some one who made a mistake but doesn't want to face the effects.
Nothing new there, its the way we live nowdays. Disgusting.
You shouldn't have parked in the wrong place. You knew that.
Waste of forum space.

The problem is that the consequences are disproportionate

Yet again we have some one who made a mistake but doesn't want to face the effects.

If you read the thread, the main issue is the disproportionate admin charge. The secondary issue is the client's obligations towards the consultants it hires.

Maybe read more carefully still and you will see that I eschew the legal route advocated by many because I admit the original mistake and don't have grounds to dispute the charge.

Maybe you will look like less of a tit that way.

Maybe you will look like less of a tit that way.

Do you ever take time to chill before using this forum...

I don't think you'll get that £100 back via expenses 🙂

It's not looking likely, no 🙂

the problem is that the consequences are disproportionate

I wasn't careless, I gambled.

Trouble is that the fine has to be high enough to act as a disincentive to take a chance.Too low and everyone will try it. Too high, and it can be challenged as being unfair. That was one of the court's points, that it didn't see the fine's level as unreasonable.

I wasn't careless, I gambled

pay up then.

The fine is the fine, it's on the sign.

If you read again, you'll see the original complaint is about the 'admin' fee.

[i]pay up then. [/i]

+1

The fine is the fine, it's on the sign.
If you read again, you'll see the original complaint is about the 'admin' fee.

The fine is the fine, it's on the sign.

Ooops beaten to it. It's not a fine, it's a speculative and exploitative invoice. Pay it if you feel it's your civic and moral duty but you should ask yourself, did your parking actually inconvenience anyone? Did where you parked loose anyone some money? If so then find out who you've actually inconvenienced and perhaps apologize to them directly instead.

You will find that many of these car parking companies are run by nasty and cretinous individuals, the sort of individuals who used to go round clamping and who specialise in scaring the vulnerable. Do you really want to contribute towards supporting this sort of thing?

I would argue it's in all our civic interests, whether we parked against the rules or not, never to pay these people. It's the only way we're ever going to get shot of such a bunch of bullies.

we do this about every 4 weeks. It doesn't just go away any longer. That used to be sound advice, now it could get you into trouble.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/parking-fines-advicehelp

You will find that many of these car parking companies are run by nasty and cretinous individuals, the sort of individuals who used to go round clamping and who specialise in scaring the vulnerable. Do you really want to contribute towards supporting this sort of thing?

Alternatively - I pay to rent 6 parking spaces for my staff at my business premises. Frequently we cannot use some of them because local residents opt to use them instead of on street parking for which they have permits, or they're used by shoppers. We write polite notices, but often to no avail, one woman got very abusive about it being a 'free country' etc. and when my colleague blocked her in called the police.

We considered getting a PPC to enforce it but at the time it was pointless because people who were prepared to abuse our space also would just rip up the tickets because the PPC's "are nasty and cretinous individuals, the sort of individuals who used to go round clamping and who specialise in scaring the vulnerable" and have read a website telling them how unfair these fines as disincentives are and how to get out of it.

We're now considering it again.

So, what gives? Why should I have to expense my staff's town centre parking on days when they can't get into our spaces because they're taken up by nasty cretinous individuals who DGAS?

As many have said, go to the MSE forum, write two letters and it all goes away

That's not how I read it. IF the company has done x wrong or y wrong and you can get them on this technicality or that technicality then you can push them through such and such a process and blablabla. A lot of ifs.

As above I am with @molgrips on the £60 admin charge which is excessive and disproportionate to work done/required.

theother I thnk you can clamp them no ? Or if you rent the spaces can you ask owner to put in those lockable posts ?

The forums are following the recent ruling?

My thoughts; parking eye- pay it. Anyone else fight it. DONT ignore.

Alternatively - I pay to rent 6 parking spaces for my staff at my business premises. Frequently we cannot use some of them because local residents opt to use them instead of on street parking for which they have permits, or they're used by shoppers. We write polite notices, but often to no avail, one woman got very abusive about it being a 'free country' etc. and when my colleague blocked her in called the police.

We considered getting a PPC to enforce it but at the time it was pointless because people who were prepared to abuse our space also would just rip up the tickets because the PPC's "are nasty and cretinous individuals, the sort of individuals who used to go round clamping and who specialise in scaring the vulnerable" and have read a website telling them how unfair these fines as disincentives are and how to get out of it.

We're now considering it again.

So, what gives? Why should I have to expense my staff's town centre parking on days when they can't get into our spaces because they're taken up by nasty cretinous individuals who DGAS?

Nailed it

theother I thnk you can clamp them no ? Or if you rent the spaces can you ask owner to put in those lockable posts ?

I don't think clamps are legal nowadays. In any case I'm not running a parking firm, I fill my day doing my stuff relevant to my business and I'd contract it out to a firm that will keep my spaces clear and make their money from that - which is where we came in.

We can't post off, it's a larger car park that some residents also pay to have space in, and we have frequent deliveries and visitors to us and other businesses. So the only practical option is a card or code controlled barrier at the entrance, and even then it doesn't deal with the residents who'd have access to the car park and then take our spaces anyway.

Simplest solution is for people to stop behaving like nobs, but that's asking too much nowadays.

My thoughts; parking eye- pay it.

Why? I appealed against them and won.

When, and on what grounds?

My thoughts; parking eye- pay it.

Why? I've got away with 3 of their tickets by filing in the bin!

That's not how I read it. IF the company has done x wrong or y wrong and you can get them on this technicality or that technicality then you can push them through such and such a process and blablabla. A lot of ifs.

The only real 'if' is if £100 is a reasonable amount to charge for the amount of time you parked there, regardless of bays. The over charge is the main reason the charge is overturned. However it is clear that you are reluctant to do this and want some niche response other than the bleeding obvious and effective. Good luck on your adventure.

The only real 'if' is if £100 is a reasonable amount to charge for the amount of time you parked there, regardless of bay

Hmm. Interesting.

The charge is clearly displayed on signs all over the place though. Although the small print is pretty small, the signs are very obvious.

the bleeding obvious and effective

I can't see how it's that obvious. Conversation will invevitably go like this:

Me: "£100 is too much"
Them: "Then why did you park under the signs that say it costs £100?"
Me: "...."

I can't see an obvious answer that goes in there? Arguments against overcharging seem to be aimed at the people who pay £2 to park for two hours then the extra 10 minutes costs £100.

Them: "Then why did you park under the signs that say it costs £100?"

Well - yeah. Why did you?

Just pay what they're asking, chalk it up to experience and enjoy a good night's sleep.

This comes down (again!!) to the Beavis court ruling.

In the past you used to be able to argue it away because it was, as others have correctly stated, an invoice and not a penalty charge, and they can only invoice you for their losses. so you could argue that their losses were nowhere near that much and get it overturned (you could also argue technicalities too, like wrong signage)

However since it went to court and the judges ruled 6:1 that it was allowable to invoice at that level because there had to be a disincentive to park without paying / overstay, that 'loophole' is now closed. You can still argue other technicalities but that aspect is basically done now.

"Applying these principles to Mr Beavis’s case, they decided that whilst the penalty rule was engaged, the £85 charge was not a penalty since ParkingEye had a legitimate interest in charging overstaying motorists which extended beyond the recovery of any loss. The company was managing car parks in the interests of the retail outlets, their customers and the public at large and had a legitimate interest in influencing the conduct of the contracting party which is not satisfied by the mere right to recover damages for breach of contract. ParkingEye could not charge a sum out of all proportion to its interests but there was no reason to suppose that £85 was out of all proportion. There was no suggestion about what an unreasonable charge might be."

http://www.hardwicke.co.uk/insights/articles/the-law-on-penalties-after-parkingeye-v-beavis

Hence why i'm asking people that have successfully appealed on that basis or ignored letters and it's gone away...... when did you do this. Because if that was before Beavis (Nov 2015), then it's basically irrelevant. If it's after, since the PPC's got supreme court approval - then it has some relevance but you might have got lucky or in the case of binning letters, it might not have 'gone away' and you might be getting a CC summons next (or if you binned that too, a CCJ and a visit from the bailiffs)

I can't see an obvious answer that goes in there? Arguments against overcharging seem to be aimed at the people who pay £2 to park for two hours then the extra 10 minutes costs £100.

The argument for is that if the penalty was in line with the parking, there'd be no incentive to follow the rules. Pay for an hour, if you stay 3 (and get caught) then just offer to pay for the extra 2; there's no disincentive not to. So there has to be a disincentive, now all that remains is how big that disincentive has to be to make it work, and on that the court didn't rule [i]per se[/i] but merely said that £85 (in the case of Beavis) was not unreasonable.

If it's after, since the PPC's got supreme court approval - then it has some relevance but you might have got lucky or in the case of binning letters, it might not have 'gone away' and you might be getting a CC summons next (or if you binned that too, a CCJ and a visit from the bailiffs)

I'll say it again, regardless of any ruling in 2015 it's just not financially viable for parking companies to take everyone who bins, ignores or appeals these invoices to court. It costs them more to take someone to court than they'll ever gain in each individual case. Hence Parking companies are taking just a handful of people to court to prove a point and to get the news out there that 'they're playing hardball' - so pay up or else!

Besides what's the big deal if you get a court summons anyway? It's very unlikely to happen but if it does come to this (I mean an actual court summons, not a letter threatening 'next step, "last chance' court or similar since many people confuse the two) just come to an out of court arrangement, normally 50% of what the original invoice was. Happy days!

Me: "£100 is too much"
Them: "Then why did you park under the signs that say it costs £100?"
Me: "...."

It's not a conversation you appeal the charge on the basis that it is too high. The folks that issued it will reject the appeal with notification that you can appeal to POPLA. you do that, with a standard letter. They review the charge and tell you you don't need to pay it. There is no conversation