Parish Councils - law unto themselves?...

County Council?

Sounds crap..... hope you get it sorted.

So the memorial is now finished? Then leave it where it is.

We get the impression from their email that if they say it has to go, it has to go.

But if you refuse they can either get rid of it themselves (which they won't have the money to pay for), or take you to court to remove it (which they won't have the money to pay for).

My wife’s mum was born in the village and spent all her life working for the good of the village.

Any chance of whipping up some local support via a local paper/Facebook group, that kinda thing?

Let everyone in the village know and maybe do a petition. One question, "are you happy for the memorial to remain in place?"

Everyone will say yes as, and please don't take this the wrong way, nobody will really be bothered.

I don't know how you can escalate these things, but what a spiteful shite that man sounds.
Sounds like a memorial patio could be in order 😉

So the memorial is now finished?

Yes - finished.

They won't even discuss now till the next council meeting has been held in March.

Any chance of whipping up some local support via a local paper/Facebook group, that kinda thing?

It's one of those villages that isn't what it used to be - satellite workers and holidays homes now. There's very few of the old school left.

We may give local radio a try if they go back on their word - they love this sort of thing!

but what a spiteful shite that man sounds.

He's done some very, very nasty things to people who got in his way. Can't say on a forum.

Do you stay in Sandford?

We know who’s complained – it’s a bloke who’s a nasty piece of work who thinks he rules the village and even though not on the council he has huge sway.

You just need to outbid him... Parish Council minutes will show who raised it .. just ask them how much

Do you stay in Sandford?

Are you saying its for the greater good ?

It’s one of those villages that isn’t what it used to be – satellite workers and holidays homes now. There’s very few of the old school left.

I don't think this matters too much to be honest - all those satellite workers and holiday home owners moved there, I assume, because it's a nice village. Explain to them that the memorial is to someone who worked all her life to make it a nice village and I think you'll be surprised at the support you'll get.

Does the cemetery have other memorials of a similar style already, or is it genuinely substantially different to everything already there? A photo of it (or online image of something very similar) might help.

Do you have email evidence of them agreeing and did the corespendance use images/drawings - i.e. how much room is there for a 'misunderstanding' of what was excpected?

Make sure you and your wife are at the next meeting - having a face there will make it harder for them to kowtow to the nasty piece of work.
In the meantime, don't touch the memorial, leave it as it is in final form. You've been through the right processes to get it there. Stick to your guns

Also always refer to it as Jane's* memorial, humanise the link to your wife's mum

*Insert actual name

Thanks IHN - we'll see what happens after the next meeting.

If it was open to public opinion we'd have accepted that and it should have gone through a planning or village consultation process. And if it was rejected then so be it.

Your op states there has been a complaint. It doesn't say they are upholding the complaint only asking for work to stop (which it has ). Presumably while they see if it's worth upholding the complaint. If it is you can appeal/ wee in the complainers shoes

It's already installed.

Go to the next meeting, take the documentation of your consultation with you and sternly point out they have already given permission, that it's built in accordance with that and that the complaint follows completion.

The time for the chap to respond to your application was months ago.

They'll go through the motions and it'll be fine but they have to go through that process precisely because they aren't a law unto themselves.

I’d be pointing out that it was a democratic process and one objection shouldn’t stop a democratic process otherwise nothing would ever be done anywhere.

Also don't go on "impression of a email" don't ask if they want it taken down. Ask if they are taking the complaint seriously given the prior approval etc and if so what is there process to investigate/ decide if they wi uphold the complaint.

Sounds familiar.

I think theres one of these types everywhere. We have a nasty, spiteful old busy-body woman here who basically objects to, then wages a war of attrition against absolutely EVERYTHING

They seem to want everything preserving in aspic, the way they imagine it. With our one, it seems she expects everyone to personally ask her permission before they change the type of flowers in their front gardens.

I don't know the answer, but good luck with it. Dealing with these petty, joyless people is soul-sapping

If it was me, I would start with:
- politely, but firmly, ask council to explain how it's 'out of place' when it's been approved by the council; you could do that in person at the next PC meeting
- insist PC response is in writing
- emphasise the full liaison and engagement with the council to ensure it was done to their satisaction
- ask how many complaints have been received; expect then to decline so then a formal FOI request - as a parish council they will have limited, if any, experience of this
- confirm council hierarchy in your area; district, unitary, metropolitan, county
- get name of your district and county councillors; ask to meet them on site for initial informal discussion
- stress to them the clear comms with the parish council, that the parish council is being disrespectful of your late MIL's wishes
- contact local paper as this type of story is right up their street

Hope you get it sorted.

Parish councils can hardly do anything at all, IIRC.

Assuming they control a planning permissions process for the cemetery (do they own it?), then you should know if permission was granted or not?

Your explanation is a bit vague around that point.

He’s done some very, very nasty things to people who got in his way. Can’t say on a forum.

This is the real thread right here. Out with it!

Agreed, you can't leave a comment like that and not explain more

Also don’t go on “impression of a email” don’t ask if they want it taken down. Ask if they are taking the complaint seriously given the prior approval etc and if so what is there process to investigate/ decide if they wi uphold the complaint.

I don't know how this works - that's why I'm asking for advice.

We asked if we could do X - they said we could do Y - we agreed on Z. There was no formal application, it was a discussion, emails and site meetings between my wife and the council. At no stage did they say it would have to be a formal planning application.

Surely they can't agree then be open to complaints. The Council have agreed - end of.

Also always refer to it as Jane’s* memorial, humanise the link to your wife’s mum

TBF, referring to it as Nasty Piece of Work's memorial might add an edge of malice that gets OP's point across

Sounds like your issue is with the complainant, not the parish council - their hands will be tied and have to work for and with all parishioners, including the nasty ones.

Cemetery's as far as I'm aware have different approval processes and procedures depending on the land and ownership. First if ask for clarification from the clerk why work has to be stopped as approvals had been given and money had been spent in goodwill of those approvals.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">My guess would be that the parish council will be fully aware of the issues surrounding this individual and probably would have had several dealings with them in the past so have asked for work to temporarily stop while they deal with their issues.</span>

If the Parish Council has already formally approved the works and it is built to the approved specification, then your response should be to point this out to the clerk and shrug.

Parish Council approvals do not include 'takey-backsies' if some local **** kicks up a fuss. He presumably had the opportunity to whine at a parish council meeting where it was up for discussion.

In-breds the lot of em !

You're not in Handforth Parish are you?
I imagine that it's very stressful for your family but there will be a hierarchy of councils and appeals processes.
For now I'd wait to be told, in writing, that changes must be made

In-breds the lot of em !

One of mine had a set of Bombers on…

Surely they can’t agree then be open to complaints. The Council have agreed – end of.

Depends if they had the right to give permission in the first place. Who actually owns the graveyard? Does what you have built need formal planning permission rather than a casual nod from someone on the the parish council? I own a small graveyard and I don't have the right to build whatever I want in there.

Nickjb is spot on - graveyards have lots and lots of conditions and everyone could have a variety of clauses which can cause issues. In addition parish councils are not planners, they are representing the local community at a wider local area, that's pretty much it - they usually have very very little authority.

Sounds like you've been misled by the council. Make it clear the work proceeded in good faith on their advice and any costs of moving/removing it will be down to them.

If the Parish Council has already formally approved the works and it is built to the approved specification, then your response should be to point this out to the clerk and shrug.

Parish Council approvals do not include ‘takey-backsies’ if some local **** kicks up a fuss. He presumably had the opportunity to whine at a parish council meeting where it was up for discussion.

I think this is my thought, having had friends and family sit on various parish councils.

I also think the understandable sensitivity for you as a family means you've maybe read too much into a single complaint.

Sounds like you've got a strong case to expose and stand up to the parish bully. A recent series of events in a neighbouring parish here (we're not far apart geographically) led to the asshole being kicked off the parish council and a sudden interest from younger, more community minded folk filling the vacant places on the council to help improve their local area.

Yeah, I live in a village run by a Parish and unless you're in the clique then it appears that you're doomed. They remind me of those home owner associations you get in the states but residing over entire villages instead, this is just my personal opinion by the way I've friends on our village parish council and have no hate, they do a lot of good but the way they run doesn't always sit right with me. They keep our village looking nice tidy and clean and I appreciate them for that, some of the blockers they put in though to prevent modernising things for the better often annoys me, changing the allotment joining process for example, they still use printed out forms you have to sign at the library and only accept a landline as a contact number!?
I've had many hobbies over the years and have often joined clubs for them, I've usually found (no hate here by the way) they're often ran by retired folks or folks close to retirement that appears to me their only focus seems to be the club, kids flew the nest, mortgage paid off, comfortable etc so I guess running these clubs is their priority and it sometimes can be quite cult like. One of them I joined any member over 65 had to pay the initial joining fee of £45 and then got free lifetime membership, the rest of us had to pay £95 a year. I see parish's the same way in regards to being cult like.

I also think the understandable sensitivity for you as a family means you’ve maybe read too much into a single complaint.

It's not the single complaint - it's who's complained. He won't do it directly either, he'll have leant on a Councillor. He doesn't get involved directly, that's not his style.

The wife's mother was Parish Clerk for over two decades and this guy sat in on nearly every meeting, but never a Councillor. The wife's mother was the only one who ever stood up to him.

Anyway - enough from me. We'll see what happens at the next council meeting.

They gave permission, so they'll need a very good reason to withdraw it. One complaint isn't a reason, it would need to be that they'd overlooked a legal requirement or something. Check if there are any byelaws regarding the cemetery. Talk to the Councillor who represents the ward where you live or where your MiL lived.

Before going to the Council meeting, check the rules on public participation. Ours had a 30min period for public discussion before the formal meeting started, after which the public could listen but not participate. It may be effective to go with some other villagers who support the memorial, but keep it polite; the Councillors probably don't even get paid expenses and won't appreciate being hassled. Find out how the Council works. Some Councils have mainly independent Councillors, others are party political; understand who makes the decisions. Ultimately they are the same as any other elected part of government, if you don't like what they do you vote them out.

So far as I know (having been a Parish Councillor) the hierarchy of Councils doesn't give the higher ones authority. If the cemetery and garden is the Parish Council's responsibility, the Unitary Council or whatever is the next level up doesn't have any authority over it.

Well the Council meeting has taken place - the Clerk has been in touch - and…

…they’re going to move it the huge distance of 4ft ish so it’s closer to a wall!! And they’ve said at their expense and risk.

So it stays, same style and size as built and agreed on, but moved to one side a bit! What an utter waste of time and Parish Council funds, especially when it was built where they told us to. 🤷‍♂️

Result.

Breathe a sigh of relief.

Glad it's worked out for you

So no need for frozen sausages this time? Glad it worked out but slightly disappointed.

... it could have led to a great Midsomer Murders plot line.

No need for frozen sausages?

We know who’s complained – it’s a bloke who’s a nasty piece of work who thinks he rules the village and even though not on the council he has huge sway.

Gonna need plenty of sausages.

No need for frozen sausages?

We know who’s complained – it’s a bloke who’s a nasty piece of work who thinks he rules the village and even though not on the council he has huge sway.

Gonna need plenty of sausages.

Glad you won round 1 Muffinman!

I remember when I was a kid the local village / parish council gave our local butcher a really hard time over some minor planning issue. A couple of years later he moved out of the area. When he shut up his shop, he put posters in the window, thanking his customers and assuring everyone that the shop would not be empty for long as it would soon re-open as "Leathers and Feathers Sex Shop". The parish council lost their shit and spent weeks writing letters, forming sub groups, engaging planning consultants and printing posters before they realised he was just taking the piss out of them all.

Glad you won round 1 Muffinman!

Hopefully there's no round 2! We're not getting into a row about moving it a few feet.

Not sure how they're going to remove the plaque from the base without it cracking though. But we have it in black and white that moving it is at their expense.

I have been a Parish Councillor, so do speak from experience, your post raises a few points that need to be clarified.

1) Parish Councils do not typically approve any planning application, that is done at a district or county level (whoever name is on your council tax bill), all a Parish Council can do is comment on any plans (just as any other person can).
2) Did you actually get planning permission to build the memorial (and do you need planning permission), if you did then you are fine. It may be that you just ran it past the council to approved, in which case it should be minuted by them, as will why they then decided to ask you to stop. The Clerk is not part of the council, but there to take notes and send out letters etc.
3) Who owns the ground on which the memorial is built, as this may also have an impact if it is owned by the church.
4) Every village has these self appointed "Lord of the Manor", I would ask the clerk that the matter is to added to the next Parish Council Meeting and then attend that meeting. You are allowed to speak for 2 minutes on why you think it should be allowed (as is the person who doesn't want it). Parish councillors have to be impartial and if not you can take it up with your local council's monitoring office

If he is a spiteful vindictive old git he might use this opportunity to still try to cause a nuisance of himself.
When its been taken down i reckon he will try to ensure its not rebuilt at all if he can find a way to get it stopped, people like this with nothing to do like to wage pointless wars of attrition.

What does this thing look like?