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Crikey. Our neighbours don't mess about, do they? Remains to be seen if it's effective.
Whilst its not great to see the carnage and destruction, I can't but help think our current government might have been a little less corrupt if we had a bit more of the French zeal for protest.
They do not mess about at all. I member anti nuclear protests a few decades ago. Brits were holding hand and singing and sitting in front of bulldozers. the French fired a bazooka at a nuclear power station that was part built
Black Bloc, same lot that trashed London every Mayday 20 years ago. Nothing to do with anything other than ****s being ****s.
It must be scary to be anywhere near that carry on, I feel for anyone inadvertently caught up in it. Dare say, the French have a bit of a rep for revolution, but I'm not sure this is going to have the desired result for the protestors. I feel that this, like many other causes, looks as if it's been hijacked by violent factions hell bent on a bit of anarchy.
Us Brits in an act of solidarity just close the curtains, shout at Alexa to turn the heating up in our forever homes, curled up on the sofa under a slanket next to our rescue dogs for a Disney+ binge.
Or indulge in some self congratulatory back patting.
Black Bloc, same lot that trashed London every Mayday 20 years ago. Nothing to do with anything other than **** being **
You've bought a pup.
It's disgusting that thugs in black are allowed to ramapage through the Paris streets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/11zp75c/23032023_paris_violences_polici%C3%A8res_charge_tr%C3%A8s/
You’ve bought a pup.
?
The French have everything going for them: a wonderful country and rich culture. So why are they so bloody miserable?
It’s disgusting that thugs in black are allowed to ramapage through the Paris streets.
To be fair they look quite well armed, who's going to stop them?
So why are they so bloody miserable?
Because they feel passion.
Edit: A movie of a good looking depressed guy smoking a cigarette is a work of art in France.
The French have everything going for them: a wonderful country and rich culture. So why are they so bloody miserable?
Are they?
They're wonderful people raging against the stuff that's already made the UK slaves.
Better standard of living, better food, they all take August off because they can. And we call them work-shy, whilst their economy is more productive than ours.
Sure it's got it's problems, but they're better off than us.
Lower than the UK on the happiness index.
Because they feel passion.
So happier countries don't have passion? What a daft thing to say.
WTF is the happiness index? I’ve never been surveyed. The UK score would be coming down if I was. The French are spectacular at rioting and protesting.
The French are spectacular at rioting and protesting.
Because they're a bunch of miserable sods 😉
So happier countries don’t have passion? What a daft thing to say.
Who says the Brits, for example, are "happier"?
It's hard to know exactly what Brits feel as they lack passion.
Brits are happy to moan a lot, just as long as it doesn't require too much effort.
Who says the Brits, for example, are “happier”?
The polls do, and I know how fond you are of them.
I think they might have confused "mustn't grumble" with being happy.
https://www.thelocal.fr/20150702/the-french-are-happier-than-the-brits-study
From what I understand, the French have a strong ethos of holding the government to account and failure to deliver on promises or commitments will result in actual action from the people.
Well done France. Light years ahead of our bend over and take it even harder approach
I think they might have confused “mustn’t grumble” with being happy
I didn't say Brits were happy. I said we were happier than the French. Which isn't difficult.
From what I understand, the French have a strong ethos of holding the government to account
A strong ethos of moaning, even though they have it pretty good.
I have never seen the french to moan as a national characteristic at all.
A strong ethos of moaning, even though they have it pretty good.
You equate getting out in the street and having a riot with "moaning"?
How quaintly British..... the masters of understatements.
You equate getting out in the street and having a riot with “moaning”?
How quaintly British….. the masters of understatements.
I do. They'll burn a few things and get back to their lives of quiet dissatisfaction with their excellent lot.
So you think that protests, strikes, and riots, never achieve anything in France?
Are you sure about that? Their regular reoccurrence suggests otherwise.
Why do you think they have it better? anything to do with strong unions? I don't see dissatisfaction amongst the french at all. quite the opposite. an arrogance knowing they are who they are
A strong ethos of moaning, even though they have it pretty good.
You sir, are a master of irony. Cognitive dissonance much? You've pretty much described everyone on this forum.
It’s hard to know exactly what Brits feel as they lack passion.
Spoken like a true Frenchman!
To be fair, the French make better cheese than the UK. That may explain thier happiness.
That's debatable, they have become complacent in their cheese making and in an unscientific cheese-off that I held against a french colleague a few years back she agreed that my selection of three brilliant British cheeses were every bit as good as her selection of three French ones.
Just don't judge us on our supermarket prepacks, find a cheesemonger and be enlightened
The real reason they're annoyed is that since the 2CV their cars are unmitigatingly crap, barring one or two (205 GTi and any Clio that Nicole was in) and yet they persist in having a car industry. At least we had the sense to jack it in or sell it to the Germans bar a couple of bespoke luxury brands.
While our retirement age has been pushed to 67 from 65 no one has said a word.
The French push theirs 2 years up and their are national protests still 3 years below ours, shows how spineless the UK has become, no wonder politics have got to the stage they are at.
Vie la France
I do. They’ll burn a few things and get back to their lives of quiet dissatisfaction with their excellent lot.
is there any correlation between having an excellent lot and kicking off when the government try and change that status?
So you think that protests, strikes, and riots, never achieve anything in France?
Who can say? Without them they might be even more miserable.
From what I understand, the French have a strong ethos of holding the government to account and failure to deliver on promises or commitments will result in actual action from the people.
Well done France. Light years ahead of our bend over and take it even harder approach
And yet who invented the Gallic shrug....🤷♂️
You sir, are a master of irony. Cognitive dissonance much? You’ve pretty much described everyone on this forum.
I think it would be unwise to extrapolate from a forum to a country.
And yet who invented the Gallic shrug…
What do you think the gallic shrug means?
It means "I don't give a toss, your problem, not mine".
It doesn't mean "how much would you like me to bend over".
Tricky one - I admire the French unwillingness to accept everything there government does (was it the Poll tax riots the last time Brits actually said enough was enough?). But on the other hand given the increasingly ageing population in Western countries, those that have socialised healthcare need to do something to address the ever-increasing financial blackhole that results from it
The French push theirs 2 years up and their are national protests still 3 years below ours, shows how spineless the UK has become, no wonder politics have got to the stage they are at.
Or maybe some of us in the UK understand that with an aging population we need to work longer as expecting the younger generations to pay for our 30 years of retirement is an unrealistic and unaffordable financial model going forward.
Or maybe some of the benefits of far less labour intensive industries due to the ever growing role of new technology should result in more leisure time and shorter working time/lives, instead of just ever increasing profits and greater wealth for an elite few?
Ernie, could you explain how that would work in practice without creating an even greater tax burden on those in employment?
On Saturday we saw the 'fun buses' travelling towards Paris ready for the demonstrations, while driving on a French motorway.
Our UK pensions were put up from aged 64 to 65 a few years ago. Women who want equality had their pensions raised in a huge leap from 62 to 65. This has caused a lot of hardship for many women, who because of equality didn't have a leg to stand on regarding demonstrating.
I'm guessing that my pension will be paid at the age of 66. This is going to be tricky as my job as a curtain maker is partly physical and I'm already struggling to lift heavy bolts of fabric around.
Unfortunately all the Western automation does is vaguely keep us competitive vs Asia where labour is still cheap, plentyful and generally unregulated. Plus the automation kit costs and has to be paid for, it doesnt always reduce costs as much as people imagine, wages may be gone but you still have to pay off the loan. A lot of automation is done because it's difficult to hire someone to do manual repetitive tasks, robots do exactly what they are told and don't get sulky when the cost of living outstrips wage growth.
Edit:
This has caused a lot of hardship for many women,
I never quite understood this, it's not like women (or men) plan thier exact retirement date 20 years in advance and have a carefully calibrated financial plan that can't be changed to allow them to retire on date X. Being told after youve retired you cant have your with no other income in place is hardship, having to work a few more years is not exactly fun but it's not unreasonable.
French Governments have been reforming pensions for 30 years. Most have tinkered about at the edges of reform but Pres Macron has gone for it, despite strikes in 2020 with a reported 61% support amongst the population
Maybe @Edukator has a view?
Automation tends to offset the trend of a smaller working population in many countries, as does raising the retirement age (X-post stumpyjon)
Ernie, could you explain how that would work in practice without creating an even greater tax burden on those in employment?
Perhaps if we stopped giving tax breaks to the already wealthy that might be a start. Perhaps if we just had a more straightforward tax system where above a threshold everyone paid the same proportion of tax on income wherever it came from. Perhaps removing tax breaks from 'charities' whose main purpose is to perpetuate inequalities.....
We live in a country where people like the Governor of the Bank of England judge other people by the standards of the financial sector and who don't seem to have a clue how any other sector works.
I try and encourage my kids to listen to both sides of an argument before going off on one but British society is encouraged to divide itself into smaller and smaller more tightly defined interest groups with no power or ability to look at the bigger picture. It is probably time to go off on one. Among other reasons the stories the French tell themselves about their revolutionary history seem to give a better underlying sense of society and fairness (even if it can often come with large helpings of xenophobia and bigotry (but then I was born in England so who am I to criticize)).
I've always had a grudging admiration for the French. I respect the fact when you're in the Alps and they're charging you 30 euros for a crap pizza, another 10 euros for a handfull of frittes and 20 euros for a Kronenburg they have the audacity to look affronted, like it's you who's having them over.
It takes some front, that
Ernie -
All that article tells me is that automation and AI will put loads of people out of work. Jobs requiring lower educational levels will be lost, jobs requiring higher educational levels will marginally increase. Then finishes with everyone who loses out to automation can become cleaners or gardeners. So given loads of people would lose jobs which are unlikely to be replaced without a significant uplift in educational attainment, where do they get money to survive without state benefits and additional tax burden on the employed?
It also completely misses the point that automation is very expensive to implement so in real world accountancy any profits are offset against the initial investment for a significant period of time therefore it doesn't generate huge amounts of surplus cash in society.
Richie_B -
I agree that a simple tax regime would be much better. I wouldn't mind everyone paying 30-35% tax on all income above the national living wage.
I also think the state pension and any old age related benefits (heating allowance, bus passes, TV license, etc) should be means tested. I'll have a good private pension when I retire in 26 years. Why should I expect the state to give me more money and benefits when I can live perfectly comfortably on what I have put into my private pension. There are those that will need that support and, barring any major disaster, I won't be one of them so why should I be given money I won't need out the state pot which is there to support those that do need it.
The French (and Brits!) have a lot of things that may be worth some public disorder but, given our life expectancy, having to work 2 years longer isn't one of them in my opinion.
It also completely misses the point that automation is very expensive to implement so in real world accountancy any profits are offset against the initial investment for a significant period of time therefore it doesn’t generate huge amounts of surplus cash in society.
Oh those poor poor companies who are inexplicably forced to sack people and replace them with robots despite the fact that it is really expensive and will eat into their profits.
From what I understand, the French have a strong ethos of holding the government to account and failure to deliver on promises or commitments will result in actual action from the people.
Except that retirement reform was one of the key Macron pledges and they re-elected him, so he's delivering exactly as promised.
Technically it's watered down a bit, it was supposed to be 65, but he compromised at 64....
Oh those poor poor companies who are inexplicably forced to sack people and replace them with robots despite the fact that it is really expensive and will eat into their profits.
That wasn't the point. The point is, automation doesn't generate lots of taxable profit that can be used to bolster the unemployment benefits pot as rightly or wrongly, companies do have the ability to offset any money made from efficiency gains against the cost of the investment.
You're the one that suggested automation is a way to allow people to have more leisure time and to retire earlier. How would this be paid for?
So once again, who provides the people who lose their jobs due to automation with a living wage without further increasing tax of the employed?
Or maybe some of the benefits of far less labour intensive industries due to the ever growing role of new technology should result in more leisure time and shorter working time/lives, instead of just ever increasing profits and greater wealth for an elite few?
Indeedy. With the side benefit that there would be people available to do jobs that are labour intensive but currently short-staffed, like wiping arses and delivering meals on wheels.
A side-moan - I thought that when I retired I’d be able to go to places during the week and they’d be quiet. Not a bit of it - they’re absolutely rammed with other retired people!!
You’re the one that suggested automation is a way to allow people to have more leisure time and to retire earlier. How would this be paid for?
Maybe we need to rethink the concept of wages - if two societies produce the same, but one with machines and one with humans, does it make sense to keep humans working (other than to keep them off the trails I want to ride, obvs)?
Maybe we need to rethink the concept of wages – if two societies produce the same, but one with machines and one with humans, does it make sense to keep humans working (other than to keep them off the trails I want to ride, obvs)?
Well the society with the machines can have the people work as well and achieve an even higher standard of living, which makes the ones without jealous and aspire to have the higher standard too.
Been the same ever since the Industrial revolution.
Why should I expect the state to give me more money and benefits when I can live perfectly comfortably on what I have put into my private pension.
I understand what you are saying and I'm in a similar fortunate position, but people will have been making decisions based on the fact that they will have both the state and private (if they have one) pension income when they retire. So it's the sort of change that you really have to make well in advance so people have time to factor it into their plans.
I wonder if those most aggressively protesting/rioting would be happy with the increased taxes/immigration needed to pay for their pensions in years to come 🤔🤔
As I understand it, French state pensions work very differently to that in the UK. Here everyone pays in and everyone gets a slice paid when they reach state pension age.
In France, there is a generic state pension age but this then varies based on the work you do (bin men have a lower age for example) and you pay in to the retirement fund only for your sector/type of work. So, my brother who is a French lawyer has to rely on there being enough young people going in to law as a profession and paying in to cover his state pension when he retires. Clearly some sectors are at risk (see above) so add the way this works to the increase in age and it gets more problematic.
I was going to post something informed and light hearted, but having just had to wait for that ****ing give us your ****ing money pop up again I thought I'd just râler instead because it's good for my physical and mental health. 😉
Fuel increases a few years back. The Brits took to social media and moaned about it before rolling/bending over and taking it. The French smashed stuff up. From what I can remember, one method was taken notice of by the government and the other wasn't.
Say what you want about the French but I love em.
Fuel increases a few years back. The Brits took to social media and moaned about it before rolling/bending over and taking it. The French smashed stuff up. From what I can remember, one method was taken notice of by the government and the other wasn’t.
I'm not sure it actually makes a massive difference in the end, fuel prices always seems roughly equivalent to ours whenever we drive there.
@stumpyjon, the reason many women were thrust into hardship was the fact that many still had menial jobs or just plain bringing up children and were often in part time jobs, thus not given the chance to have a company pension. Their pensions were expected at the age of 60 and without much warning the pension age was changed and they had to wait many more years. Maybe some couldn't get work at the age of 60 plus and possibly some were just plain tired after years of hard work and bringing up their families.
Not everyone sits behind a keyboard with a good wage and company pension, sadly it's still mostly women who do part time work or have a menial job, such as a cleaner and have low paid work. This has changed a lot in the last decade, but it has affected women who are now in their early to mid 60's.
Edit; @footflaps - we've just come back from France and petrol is quite a bit dearer than in the UK.
The Brits took to social media and moaned about it before rolling/bending over and taking it.
Eh? Refineries were blockaded and the pumps ran dry.
There was also a lot of both tutting and eye-rolling and somebody wrote a letter to the Daily Telegraph in green ink
Not everyone sits behind a keyboard with a good wage and company pension, sadly it’s still mostly women who do part time work or have a menial job, such as a cleaner and have low paid work.
I love the idea that everyone who works with a computer is on a good wage most of the people I know have to tender every job so we’re all on the same race to the bottom (I used to do both and hour for hour I earned more cleaning, although I will admit the hours were out of sync with everyone else’s timetables).
Well the miner's strikes were pretty passionate.
I'm always astonished how the French are so productive. I did a couple of projects and they used amble in around 9ish go home at 4 and have a couple of hours for lunch.
It's not like we spend all day surfing the net over here and engaging in forums...
Our UK pensions were put up from aged 64 to 65 a few years ago
Speak for yourself, my state pension age is 68 if I ever actually get one.
I never quite understood this, it’s not like women (or men) plan thier exact retirement date 20 years in advance and have a carefully calibrated financial plan that can’t be changed to allow them to retire on date X.
There's a whole load of information out there if you choose to educate yourself.
I’m always astonished how the French are so productive. I did a couple of projects and they used amble in around 9ish go home at 4 and have a couple of hours for lunch.
I guess it’s being present versus being productive. Presenteeism (is that a word?) seems rife in the UK. Businesses demanding people be in the office so that they can pretend to work in sight of the management.
Well the miner’s strikes were pretty passionate.
There hasn't been one for nearly 40 years. If that is considered a good example of British passion I rest my case.
Well the miner’s strikes were pretty passionate.
They were, end result wasn't great though, pit closures accelerated, communities ripped apart and families with no income whilst striking. If thats what passion gets you I'll stick to green ink and tutting thank you.
@bunnyhop no still dont get why the pension age going back is such an injustice specifically for women, fully agree women have had it rough over the last 30 years as societies expectations have changed but i doubt many would have actively changed the paths of theirs lives if they had known 30 years ago the pension age would be at 68 when they retired. When I started work people were on final salary pension schemes and retiring at 55, I haven't based my entire retirement plans on that, realisation has dawned over time that's totally unrealistic, in fact I don't have a set retirement time in mind, it will depend on my health, employment situation, state of the stock markets when I cash in my pension pots etc.
It's not a gender equality thing, every working person has been hit by reduced pension expectations and longer working life.
If anything it was pretty unfair that for years women retired earlier and lived longer than men so got significantly more pension.
Bottom line is very few people will get the retirement they were expecting.
A lot of automation is done because it’s difficult to hire someone to do manual repetitive tasks, robots do exactly what they are told and don’t get sulky when the cost of living outstrips wage growth.
Nice. Are you sulky too or are you doing fine than you very much? The factories where I've worked the robots were temperamental shites, thankfully, because at the end of the line were humans still doing extremely repetitive jobs. Glad to be out of it.
Well the society with the machines can have the people work as well and achieve an even higher standard of living, which makes the ones without jealous and aspire to have the higher standard too.
Been the same ever since the Industrial revolution.
bollocks to that! Bring on the robot/AI revolution and I’ll quit work with basic needs met. More time to do fun stuff or volunteering. Life’s way too short for working until you’re too old and knackered to enjoy what’s left of it.
No wonder the King cancelled his visit to France:
"They’re planning on going to Versailles. It does not look good. This seems very 1789.”
Being is Versailles surrounded by angry Frenchmen must be a tad unsettling for any royalty.
Especially if the Tricoteuses start appearing with their knitting.
’m always astonished how the French are so productive. I did a couple of projects and they used amble in around 9ish go home at 4 and have a couple of hours for lunch.
Depends where you are maybe. Where I worked people often stayed till 6 or 7 in the evening.
How much of this is actually about pension reforms? It may well be an unpopular policy but the under-reported (at least in the UK) elephant in the room seems to be the fact that the reform was forced through without a democratic vote.
How much of this is actually about pension reforms? It may well be an unpopular policy but the under-reported (at least in the UK) elephant in the room seems to be the fact that the reform was forced through without a democratic vote.
Absolutely.
the fact that the reform was forced through without a democratic vote.
Wasn't there a democratic vote? I thought there was one in the legislature and it rejected the proposal?
So yeah, the excessive executive powers of the President under the 5th Republic, and its affect on democracy, seems to be an issue.
Melenchon has called for a 6th Republic I believe.
How much of this is actually about pension reforms? It may well be an unpopular policy but the under-reported (at least in the UK) elephant in the room seems to be the fact that the reform was forced through without a democratic vote.
Yep, and the far right are milking it and pouring petrol on the flames.
Wasn’t there a democratic vote? I thought there was one in the legislature and it rejected the proposal?
Not that I can see.. Macron didn't think it would get past the National Assembly (lower house) so invoked Article 49.3 to force it through without a vote.
Ah, I thought that there had been a vote and the proposal was lost which is why Article 49.3 was invoked.
It would be like a UK prime minister pushing through legalisation without bothering to put it to a parliamentary vote because they didn't feel that it would get enough support.
No wonder those Frenchies are angry!