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Anyone owned and developed a listed building? I see a few on Grand Designs and the like and it always comes across as a massive pain so I'm already wary. I've found a tiny chapel possibly going cheap in a beautiful part of the country that would make a lovely little holiday home. The problem is that it is listed and the listing includes the built in pews. Its tiny so if you ripped out the interior it'd make a nice one bed but with the interior left in place the options are very limited. Maybe a small extension or summer house for living in and a big, if uncomfortable, cinema room? It cannot be used as a chapel once sold, and is in the middle of nowhere anyway, so the options are limited for any buyer. Any chance the listed buildings people would be pragmatic in this instance?
From what I know it's the only thing more expensive than coke and hookers and Brexit.
It does depend on the grade of the listing and what the actual listing words say. If you can put up a good case for the mods you want to do you might have a chance, even more so if the building is threatened.
We did a grade 2* building and we eventually did some quite extensive mods (including a rear extension) as the building wasn't usable for anything in its current form. English Heritages view on it was "oh well, at least we've saved another building".
So, its worth speaking to the councils conservation office initially.
How high is the ceiling?
Build a deck above the pews to use as living space and leave them in situ?
My folks converted a grade 2* listed chapel into a house when I was in my teens.
It took ages, the local parish council were wantonly obstructive and put barriers up at every opportunity (in hindsight this was driven by one fella who lived in the hamlet).
I would have a chat with the local planners before you spend any money...
Build a deck above the pews to use as living space and leave them in situ?
That's a good idea if there's room - you could even do some perspex panels to still see them.
what grade? If the pews are part of the listing your chance is slim to none based on my minimal experience of dealing with planning to repaint shutters in a grade ii listed house. As ever it will depend on the local authority in question though.
I seem to recall that buildings previously used for worship have additional scrutiny attached but that's very anecdotal.
One of my neighbours lives in a chapel they converted in the 60s and, even then, they had to live in it permanently and during the works in order to get planning for residential conversion, their original application was refused on the grounds it was a second home because they rented the house next door.
A holiday home is i should think unlikely to get past local planning as by and large, the people in the lovely parts of the country (me included) dislike "townies" having homes they live in for 3 weeks out of the year taking up much of the housing stock so planning applications for them draw lots and lots of objections, add that to the listed status and I don't imagine you'll see much success.
Hello
Info for you here; https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/your-home/
Basically for a Grade II everything's up to the Conservation Officer, if its a higher grade the Conservation Officer would contact HE. The Listing description makes no difference to what's protected and what's not BTW.
Landmark Trust might be worth talking to? They seem to specialise in the unusual.
I am in the throes of converting a grade II listed chapel into a house. You will have to jump through hoops to get planning permission. The local council here (Calderdale) were very slow to process paperwork and consistently missed their own deadlines and failed to update the portal.
We had to contend with: The council planners, the council Heritage Officer, the parish Council, English Heritage, The Georgian Group and The Ancient Monuments Society.
All of the above had their own thoughts as to what should be kept and what could be done away with, the Parish Council objected to everything but are well down the line when it comes to the crunch, it seemed like English Heritage were the ones to keep onside as they had most clout. The last two had never seen the chapel but objected on principal. If we had to keep the pews it would have been a deal breaker but the chapel was in such disrepair they had to concede that saving the building was a main priority. It took nearly 12 months of hassle and 4 different sets of plans before we reached an agreement.
Currently living in the graveyard in a caravan whist we do the work.
Currently living in the graveyard in a caravan
Given your user name i imagine that's well suited!
listed building in a conservation area. I have done a load of work and loads had been done previously. the only hassle / issue I have had is replacement windows have to be wooden sash and case and they wouldn't let me put in rooflights as big as I wanted.
If it is in the middle of nowhere, does it have mains services? If it doesn't I'd avoid unless the price reflects this.
Own a grade 2 listed, thatched cottage, which was developed from a shell.
Yes, its lovely. No, I wouldn't do it again. House is up for sale now (for other reasons).
I see a few on Grand Designs and the like and it always comes across as a massive pain so I’m already wary.
Its in the nature of the programme to ham up the drama and find problems.
I’d first find out from the state agent whether there are restrictive covenants on the sale (Depending on the denomination of the chapel these aren’t uncommon and can rule out what you want to do). I’d then contact the local conservation officer, pay the fee for a consultation (I think its about £80), and see what their attitude is to your ideas.
The only problem with listed buildings is that they are all different and are treated on their own merits so generalisation is a waste of time. If your interested you need to work with the character of the building and at least to a degree accept the limitations unless you have an unlimited budget.
Knowing whether the chapel or area around it was used for burials would help as it would indicate whether you might need archaeological supervision for excavations.
Conservation accredited architects or surveyors (AABC/ RIBA or RISC conservation accreditation) are used to woking with the system and how to frame the justification for what you want to do so they should make the process easier.
I have managed the conversion of a grade 2* listed building in a professional capacity as part of a wider regeneration scheme.
The key to doing this successfully is have a pragmatic conservation officer in the local authority. I've come across both the pragmatic and hardline variety in my time. From a LA perspective I'd guess that they see this building as a potential issue. Having buildings such as this empty because a hardline is taken on conversion does nobody any favours and is likely to result in it becoming derelict over time. Make an appointment to speak to the local conservation officer at the Council and talk through how flexible they can be.
It's important to remember that English Heritage list buildings, and the Local Plannning Authority just enforce the listing. I'm aware of many cases where the LPA isnt happy about prospective listings because it makes their job harder. Conservation officers in the Council can be just as motivated to bring empty listed buildings back into use, particularly if there's a local councillor on their case about it being empty, and if there's someone willing to invest in this building and work with them you're more likely than not to find a allie that will help you do it.
To add - the listing might not be your issue here. Check the title with the land registry and see if there's a restrictive covenant on the title restricting its use to a place of worship. If there is it's not a show stopper as they are rarely enforced but you might want to get some title indemnity insurance sorted out
Only experience gained is having my first home as a Grade 1 listed cottage in Ironbridge many years ago, boy that was a proper ballache to get anything past Planning. The previous owners built a single brick outbuilding on the side and converted that into a kitchen, it had been in situ since the 50's yet when I wanted to double skin it and add a secure door (it had a stable door of all things) I had to get a survey done and the English Heritage folks involved (wasn't called English Heritage back then, but some government controlled pile of steaming horsecrap) anyway... I then got refused, and at the same time asked to pull down the small extension and also pull out the UPVC windows that had been replaced by the previous owner a couple of years before.. ANNNNND... wait for it... remove the Gas central heating system and replace it with a boiler based system (TBF the Gas was bloody awful and probably properly dangerous) annnnddddddd... they issued a edict to get me to remove the single skin roof that was the outbuilding attached from the house to the wall where the road went past the cottage..
All this despite my neighbours having similar attached buildings and UPVC and such.
Well, the house cost me £40k back then (89) and cost me £11k of my very hard earned to fix some of the issues.. the single skin outbuilding remaind but was double skinned and brought into visual line with the rest of the building, the Gas CH was ripped out, actually glad about that, and the single skin roof remained untouched.. I replaced the Door to the kitchen with a proper Door and made it secure (it certainly wasn't before)
The outcome? Yeah, the inspector cam around and again issued an edict about the works not being satisfactory and gave me a year to remedy..I did nothing more and 9 years later and I sold the property to another family who were informed about the Planning issues and they didn't care one hoot....
It you looked at both visual and fabric of the cottage it was within keeping with the environment, and surrounding cottages so fitted in really well, well other than it being white and the others brick.. but hey.
Roll forward to a couple of years ago and I went to visit Ironbridge as a nostalgia weekend and its all still Grade 1 and World Heritage designated.. and yet....
Down the hill form me back then was an open plan 70's house built into the hill and its aspect was awesome, overlooked the valley and the style and shape were built to blend into the hillside and valley and I loved it, it was owned by my Maths Tutor and I dated his daughter whilst doing A Levels.. I digress.. SO on my trip back there this 70's house had been ripped out and some chuffing 5 bed Barratt POS had replaced it and it was a three story modern POS that was totally out of place in the area, I was disgusted.
So these days I care less about Planning and its restrictions purely for the fact that I reckon planners are always in the back pockets of their friends who want to build or renovate something and just get it past planning.
My experience was a PPITA, it put me off owning anything older than 15years.
I understand the way to get your improvements past the English Heritage people is to submit a plan that is 33% bigger and 100% more garish than what you want. In negotiations be prepared to wind the plans back by 25% in size and 50% in garishness. The planning officer gets his win and you get what you wanted.
Although these days you seem to have more luck adding steel and glass structures to an old hall rather than something more sympathetic.
more luck adding steel and glass structures to an old hall rather than something more sympathetic.
yes, there does seem to be a thing about contrasting any additions to the original building so the listed structure remains visually separate rather than subsumed into any additions.
Answer seems to be you can knock it down if you like...