You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Where did that person get the land from?….somewhere down the line it’s been stolen
In the late 1800s, land ownership was a mainstream political talking point.
Groups like the Land League questioned the general idea of individuals owning large swathes of land.
Campaigners such as Henry George: "As no man made the land, so no man can claim a right of ownership in the land."
Land reforms were talked about in terms of social justice; promoted by politicians like Lloyd-George and Churchill. The People's Budget of 1909 included a land tax.
The issues remain as relevant as ever but are now rarely talked about.
Got one - much of it is steep and has been unmanaged for decades - it is largely impenetrable and that's the way I like it. Unfortunately last time I camped in it, had a muntjac barking outside the tent, so there is another invasive and the brambly wilderness slopes will soon become more open I expect. Main management challenge is taking out sycamore in the accessible bits over time and working out what best to replace it with - fortunately my father and grandfather stuck a few oaks in during the 1960s and they are doing really well. It is sobering to look at a big oak tree (still a youngster) and realise it's the same age as myself.
Long term land prices rise by around 5% per year (source ->
Using farmland values for a piece of fairly useless* wood on a steep hill is pretty deluded.
Farmland generates income - this does not.
Do you really think it's going to be worth £325k in 10 years (you've already said you don't think it's worth £200k)?
as long as my interest rate is below 5% per year, the money I spend on interest (say 4% of 200k, over 10 years, which is £80k) is recovered when the land sells for 5% per annum more than I paid for it (£125k profit, minus various taxes) – the net gain in that example would be £45k minus costs
Are you on an interest only mortgage now?
Are the mortgage co going to let you have an interest only mortgage?
If not then you're going to be paying back capital as well so about £1.5k/month just on the land.
You say "when the land sells for 5% per annum" where I think you mean "if".
The bottom line is that there are very likely a lot of people with more money than you** (i.e. wouldn't have to borrow) - if your numbers were right then they would be all over it and it would have gone already.
But they're not. Does that not make you think?
* If it had a use it would have been done by now.
** Yes OK, humble brag, I could easily do this without borrowing - but even I think it's a bad idea, and my kids are all through school/university.
I told MrsSB (who has just had a big inheritance) about this thread - "not a f*****g chance”!
Obvs your money but I'd hate to see it go wrong or turn out to not be the easy ride/playground that you are convincing yourself it is. Sorry.
No idea why but the idea that people can own woodland makes me feel a bit sad. Utterly daft and irrational but it does. Somebody near me has purchased a small patch and stuck up a plethora of keep out signs. That’s just made me go in there for the first time.
I own 1/3 of a small one in Sussex. Never realised it was fashionable now.
Fortunately the other owners live next to it so I don’t have to do much other than wander round it when I go visit.
It's the sticking signs up that is so sad. I love photographing them - from behind.
No signs up in mine.
its apparently a shared driveway (I’d assume shared between the house, which is split in 3, and the woods)
we own the bridge and driveway which three houses access. Pretty simple legal agreement that all parties sign and then we split maintenance costs.
Lady I used to know from BMX back in the day keeps a small wood, her Facebook posts about it make me hugely jealous. 🙂
You'd need to be out of your tree, barking mad to do this. Do kids, doggers or anyone else give a flying fig about who own s the land? Possibly 'privately owned' would encourage more 'misbehaviour' than a park, who's going to police that?
It will be of little interest to the commercially minded as it's small and steep, so pretty strong pricing, but I'm not familiar with the SE premium.
National Park not a big barrier in working a wood, just another consultee in licences/plans.
SSSI a little more complicated, but not impossible, needs more details.
Vehicle access is very important.
It's an advantage if it has no roadside or public access liabilities.
Not a big money maker, could be cost neutral, but you would own a wood.
Seek advice from a woodland firm, not one of the big land management companies or an arborist, but somewhere that deals with felling licences, woodland schemes and planning. Someone who is a chartered forester should tick these boxes.
Some knackered improved ground with a little existing woodland would be my choice for something that could balance the books.
As others have said, National Park means nothing unless you are going through planning.
SSSI is all about getting consent (S28E) from Natural England (or going through the Advice (S28I) framework for other relevant permissions). NE is a regulator, therefore it has to grant a consent where it cause no harm to the notified features of the site. The ORNECS list looks quite comprehensive, but it would be worth asking NE for all consents issued for the SSSI, it wouldn't surprise me if there's a consent granted at some point that you could use. NE not talking to you is ridiculous. Personally, I'd FoI them for all consents for the SSSI just to piss them off for not speaking to you and hiding behind the 'you're not an owner/occupier' rubbish. They have to give you them and NE doesn't have a clue what permissions there are out there for every SSSI in the Country. This is coming from a former National Senior Specialist in SSSIs for NE.
Woodlands per se don't need managing. There was one that sound in great condition earlier, with lots of deadwood and being impenetrable, that seems to be succumbing to our notion of tidy = good, which is a nonsense.
My friends have an SSSI woodland and they have had zero trouble doing the stuff they've wanted to.
Reading through this thread I find it really interesting how financially focused people are. There are other important values.
Granted, an extra 200k isn't within everyone's means, but I see the evidence of people doing this to fund all kinds of depreciating frippery every day - big 4x4s/fancy cars, camping gear, boats, etc, etc. **** that shit!
I can still remember a biology class when I was a teenager and we were being taught about climatic climax communities and from then on I've loved the idea of land being left to do its own thing. I didn't expect I'd marry into a family that spent 40 years restoring degraded land and then end up living in a forest myself, but if the opportunity arose I'd happily buy empty adjacent land to expand the conservation footprint.
I don’t think it is particularly “financially focussed” to query the splurging of 200k (remortgaging the house so it’s not petty cash for them) on a single illiquid asset of no intrinsic value. It’s obviously a very substantial risk, but if the OP is ok with losing the money then that’s up to them.
I don’t think it is particularly “financially focussed” to query the splurging of 200k (remortgaging the house so it’s not petty cash for them) on a single illiquid asset of no intrinsic value.
That entire sentence is a contradiction.
I'd love to own a woodland and idlely browse the woodlands.co.uk website (tho that one always seems scammy). However, for amenity woodland, labour have been making positive noises about extending right to roam to woodland (please please please! I have 200 acres across the road from me that is fenced off and just used to kill pheasants twice a year). I would expect that if people were granted the right to wander around woodland it would reduce the amenity value. That being said YOLO.
Wait until someone else buys it then go in there and dig a few lines, berms and a couple of massive gap jumps with big deadly borrow pits and let someone else worry about potential claims and the occupiers liability act. 😉
Have a fire, discard a tent and leave a bit of rubbish around as well, that what everyone else does!
The most pertinent point of buying a wood via a mortgage on your property is you risk losing your home if you can’t keep the payments up on the mortgage. Keep that in mind when making a decision.
Now now tonyf1, don't go all "financially focussed" on us. That roof over your head is only money!
Or.. Buy some unloved land and get it planted up as a woods? You'll get grants to do the planting/fencing and even paths if you make it publically accessible, and it will give you something that will grow with your family, generate firewood as you thin and one day be a benefit to the area as a whole? You just need to make sure its over 2Ha IIRC and the rest is fairly straightforward.
thanks to every who's got actual experience owning/managing land/woods who's taken the time to answer, its good to know that you can kind of put in what you want to.
as for those who think its a bad financial decision.. so be it. You cant ride bikes in a pile of shares, and no-one would bat an eyelid about taking an easily affordable, 25% mortgage to buy a house with a bigger garden. We might break even, we might come out on top, we might come out under.
Once the estate agents come back with what restrictions the current owners say they have, I'll get some proper advice from the local college (I figure their course tutors have a good knowledge of the local area, and what the woods are like) before deciding what to do next
You cant ride bikes in a pile of shares
No, but there's a vast choice of places to ride a bike - why limit yourself - and no-one takes out a mortgage to buy shares!
no-one would bat an eyelid about taking an easily affordable, 25% mortgage to buy a house with a bigger garden.
No, but this is not a house with a bigger garden it a piece of wood on a steep hill with little use, you're comparing apples with oranges.
Anyway, I hope you give it lots of thought and that your wife is in full agreement and that it works out for you. I'm sure we all look forward to the pictures and stories that will prove us wrong!
thanks to every who’s got actual experience owning/managing land/woods
🙋♂️
Been involved with horses all my life (I don't ride though! 🙂 ), wife has a horse, daughter has a horse, sister-in-law and her daughters have horses - basically the whole ruddy family have or had them. Had and rented plenty of land over the years - never owned a wood though! Just don't go in thinking there's minimal expense to owning it.
Can I ask if you've ever owned land or had any experience of managing and maintaining it?
I think most are questioning it because your primary reason for buying is for somewhere for your kids to play.
Can you not buy it , then split it down . Selling the parts that you don't want and keep the red bull hard line section?
I love getting kitted up and going to my mates woods and clearing trees . He's minted though , so has a mini tractor and flail mower. , digger , Tele , 4x4 plus 2 trailers .
Is hard graft mind , even with decent saws. Cutting stuff down or into lengths is easy , it's what happens next is labour intensive
I'm certainly not saying the OP shouldn't buy it, just suggesting they should go into it with their eyes open as to the financial implications (which need not be paramount, but certainly are a factor given that they're thinking of an extra mortgage). If they end up struggling to sell it for 100k a few years down the line, would that matter to them?
If they end up struggling to sell it for 100k a few years down the line, would that matter to them?
Wouldn't the house need to be sold to to cover the difference, or extra funds put in to cover the loss? Once it's tied to a house it can't be treated as a separate asset if it drops in value, or you get bored of owning it.
Assuming the mortgage is on the house only, there's no reason they would directly lose the house. They'd just be paying a bigger mortgage payment with nothing to show for it.
I was guessing the mortgage would be against the land with the house as security? But that's not my area of expertise. IANAFA! 🙂
Good luck and wish you well, but seriously, if you are considering purchasing the plot, get professional advice even if you have to pay for it.
Ive always done that for farms/land ive bought.
Talking to the local college lecturers? 😀 Trying to do this on the cheap when there is £200k involved??
Those that can, do, those that cant, teach.......
If it's in a SSSI and/or has scope for habitat improvement or is already unique and can be further preserved for 30-40 years, there may be some income value in it from a BNG point of view. As others have said get a land agent or woodland manager type involved as you could get some level of income in the future from BNG which is due to come into force in the next month. You'd need to get an ecologist to determine the baseline habitat and uniqueness value and there would be some ongoing management involved to maintain this but it's effectively an offset and improvement system that developers have to sign up as part of the planning process and if they can't achieve it on their own plot they have to look elsewhere.
The market for BNG is fairly new/chaotic atm and it won't make you millions but provided a mortgagor allows you to sign up to a long enough agreement, it might provide some income.
Or just buy it, have fun digging and riding your own trails, learn to use a chainsaw safely and whatever else you want to do, I'm certainly envious.
people are obsessing over the idea of the mortgage. Its really no difference to if I had a 200k mortgage on my house already and £200k cash to spend, its also no difference to having any assets at all when you still have money left on your mortgage. Own a £40k tesla and have £50k left on your mortgage? You've effectively borrowed against your house. Either way the mortgage will be paid off long before the woodlands are sold, if we do choose to buy them, so the resale value isn't a big financial concern
@crankslave - interesting - I hadn't heard of BNG. The SSSI is already in the best condition (the woods aren't really the reason for the SSSI, its the grassland next to it, but it was bundled in for some reason, I guess as its ancient).
Or just buy it, have fun digging and riding your own trails, learn to use a chainsaw safely and whatever else you want to do, I’m certainly envious.
This. First thing to do is buy a quad though. No self respecting woodland owner doesnt have a quad to razz about the place help drag stuff around.
if it’s in a National Park then you could apply for a FiPL grant as long as you align it to one of the 4 ‘outcomes’. https://www.southdowns.gov.uk/custodians/farming/farming-in-protected-landscapes-fipl/
Worth engaging a decent woodland consultant if you are serious. Try the institute of chartered foresters, they have a list of consultants. Not a tree surgeon or a tree feller, someone who understands the designations, what the sssi is designated for, understands the regulations and funding potential and can unlock a market for any timber if necessary. It’s possible to harvest timber from a sssi woodland, it depends on what it’s designated for, it may not be for the actual trees, maybe the ground flora etc. Where about a is it? Pm me if you like I may be able to help or offer a suggestion of a decent consultant locally or the local woodland officer.
Googled and found it. It's a funny bit of land isn't. Kind of 'land locked' - surrounded by farm land owned by others and a house and only accessible by that shared drive. It sort of looks like a fundamentally worthless bit of land you'd expect to be attached to the farm land or the house that you'd own because it's a nice thing to have alongside the useful bit and maintained because it's the right thing to do. Owning it without owning one of the functioning plots around it just feels a little odd. I know £10k a acre is very very cheap for land in the South downs but it needs to be I'd say given it's basically of minimal use.
Does it have location with a view? Or a 'heart'/focal point? I think if I owned it standalone without it providing me timber or an income, when I visited I'd want an HQ with a view to chill in and make it feel worthwhile owning.
Brambles are an early coloniser and will normally be shaded out by mature trees regardless of aspect. You may get some of course but they won’t take over a woodland unless you clear felled it.<br /><br />
Whenever the forestry people have a felling and clearing out session in West Woods near Marlborough, they leave the brash behind, and the first things to colonise are bluebells, followed closely by brambles and ash trees. Ash are like dandelions, the speed they sprout up.
I know of a wood with lots of elm. They grow, die relatively (Dutch elm) soon and start again.
I like to think, one day an elm will make it through resistant.
Authorities love chopping any ash down with the standard excuse of die back. Same with elm.
Leave it,let it run its course IMO.
Let dead trees fall an leave. Unless it's across a road or something.
All the, Got to be managed is bollox. Industry fog and influencing.
Good to see others agree above.
You could make the same argument for leaving your garden to go wild. Problem is you would lose the amenity which is fine except that’s the very reason the OP wants to buy the wood in the first place.
The amenity is going to be restricted anyway because it is a protected site. Which site is it? Would help in knowing what condition it is, because as well as the FiPL grant, there’s a good chance the FC would pay to improve its condition.
people are obsessing over the idea of the mortgage. Its really no difference to if I had a 200k mortgage on my house already and £200k cash to spend, its also no difference to having any assets at all when you still have money left on your mortgage. Own a £40k tesla and have £50k left on your mortgage? You’ve effectively borrowed against your house. Either way the mortgage will be paid off long before the woodlands are sold, if we do choose to buy them, so the resale value isn’t a big financial concern
you are correct that people do stupider things with mortgages (buying a boat for example), but those people don’t try to suggest it’s an investment that will make them a small amount of money. Very few people own a Tesla, they basically rent them. Now that might not be the best use of their cash either (depending on total running costs, tax incentives etc) but it’s probably a lot easier to escape a lease car agreement if financial circumstances change than offloading a woodland! People do spend £200k on building extensions etc and would probably be less criticised than you are. But an extension should be a safer bet. Your plan is more akin to borrowing £200k to buy shares in a stable business that seems to be growing steadily (a friend with a mortgage bought 50k of rbs shares in 2005!).
any financial adviser will tell you first priority on paper would always be your pension. Anyone who’s paid off there mortgage will tell you the feeling of freedom is huge (you can quit your job, reduce hours, do something you love for less money) and that all that mortgage repayment money is then available to do stuff you love - like take your kids on adventures…
of course, if this is your passion, then like the person buying a yacht, you should live life now and enjoy it. But your wife didn’t seem keen. Doubling a mortgage for no perceived benefit is the sort of thing where relationships unravel…. a divorce settlement with a woodland will take a long time to agree!
But your wife didn’t seem keen. Doubling a mortgage for no perceived benefit is the sort of thing where relationships unravel…. a divorce settlement with a woodland will take a long time to agree!
Poly, you had the balls to type what I was thinking!
buying a boat for example
Point to note - if we're talking boats/yachts with flapping cloth and not too bling or too new, it's quite hard to lose too much money on their purchase then future sale. Buy an early 2000s 30 odd footer now and you'll likely get the same for her if you sell her on in 5 years time. Maintenance, repair, harbour dues or marina fees are a different matter however!.....“A boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.”. Not too dissimilar to classic car ownership I guess.
God this thread is the usual mix of the righteous who have no idea what they are talking about, bringing up loads of paper pushing rubbish. The usual talk of insurance, stamp duty and other things that have absolutely no relevance to a private bit of woodland with the no rights of way across it. Much of it seems to stem from sour grapes of those who don't have their own money to invest.
The idea that this is like buying an NFT is one of the stupidest things i've read on here or that the trend for purchasing woodland is like "tulip mania."
Land is an asset - and I can't see ever see with the way UK population is going, and climate change making living anywhere south of the pyrenees more and more of an uncertainty that the purchase of several acres of land is ever going to be a terrible investment.
Some of you people are what makes living in the UK dull - dark lives, endless unnecessary paperwork and administration.
Have you actually read the thread?
stamp duty and other things that have absolutely no relevance to a private bit of woodland
Umm.... stamp duty will be payable at 3% (so £6k)
Much of it seems to stem from sour grapes of those who don’t have their own money to invest.
Neither does the OP he's borrowing it. I do and certainly wouldn't, but that's just my choice.
I can’t see [something, something] the purchase of several acres of land is ever going to be a terrible investment.*
Generally it isn't..... but this is a wood on the side of a steep hill that is potentially never going to being built on. It is, therefore, not really an 'investment'. (If it was why are the current owners selling?)
My main thrust is that the OP has a plan for his young boys for the next 10 years and is willing to borrow money to see this vision come true. As the father of older children I'm just saying that our visions for our children rarely pan out the way we think they will and that there's a very real possibility that reality will be a far cry from the images currently in his mind when thinking about this.
For example, what if his boys get bored of riding their bikes there? The main reason for buying the wood has then gone!
For someone who has £500k spare then putting a large chunk of that into such a plan is one thing..... but borrowing money to do it seems foolhardy.
* There are a number of people whose houses are falling into the sea that would probably disagree with you - but the OP is not one of these.
Just read a bit more of the thread re SSSI. It sounds as though the SSSI is notified for a feature that is not the woodland. This means two things 1) it’s harder for NE to refuse any consent you may need to do what you want. 2) BNG is likely to be available, I put the anchors on it being used to improve SSSI condition as the State has an statutory duty to do that, but the site fabric is fair game. You’ll have to get a thorough assessment of the condition of the woodland completed. BNG units for woodland are pretty well paying though, so you may get some income, but it will depend on a number of factors. That being said, the SSSI guidance hasn’t been released yet.
I have followed this thread from the beginning, intently. I 'own' 11 acres of woodland that is inside the Loch Lomond national park. Best thing i have ever purchased. Hours spent clearing, chopping down trees, splitting wood, sitting watching the deer, Does anyone have any idea how i go about getting grants? The .Gov website is a shambles (at least to my eyes). Is there a more useful source of information?
I was fortunate that, from age 5-11, my parents' house bordered a wood. My friends and I spent countless hours in there playing army & building dens, and had massive bonfire night celebrations in the clearing at the bottom. Properly idyllic stuff.
Those ratty buildings; any chance you could replace with some glamping pods on the same footprint to help it pay for itself?
put up a small shed with some holes big enough to stick camera lenses thru, drag road kill infront of it for a couple months until all the local raptors come to it, charge wildlife photographers a couple hundred quid a day to sit in the shed
I would try Google over the gov.uk search.
Because of devolved powers I would enquire with NatureScot about upcoming possible grants and subsidy for Carbon Capture and Natural Flood Management type land management schemes. I know a number of schemes are in the making in England that would look at a number of years' commitment (like 5-20 years) for a payment each year.
And the Woodland Trust and similar charities should also have information on grants.
so bit of an update.. I got hold of the woodland management plan, which didn't make too scary reading except for the fact that the trees are something like 90% ash. Ash dieback is already in full flow in the area, so in ~10 years it seems like 4 out of 5 trees will have fallen down. This obviously puts a serious halt on the plans (not much fun for my kids to run round 20 acres of brambles), so it feels like its unlikely we'll carry on with it, but just tidying up a few loose ends.
Ash dieback is already in full flow in the area, so in ~10 years it seems like 4 out of 5 trees will have fallen down.
Bonus! Do a deal with a local tree surgery company and sell the wood for log burners. Ash is great for log burners and can be burnt 'green'.
They do the donkey work, you take a cut on the sale of wood. Then you can re-plant with native species and build a new woodland landscape.
the-muffin-man, not sure if its UK wide but there can be restrictions on transporting / selling diseased trees so I'm not sure it will quite the goldmine you hope! But someone will find a tax dodge to replace those trees with something else!
[I]Is it safe to burn seasoned ash logs infected with Ash dieback?
Ash dieback is a highly destructive disease of ash trees; however, it is perfectly safe to use seasoned ash logs that have been affected. The spores are only harmful to other ash trees when they are in leaf. Ash dries out wonderfully fast, once felled. You can buy logs from our shop.[/I]
I own several acres of woodland, and can attest that if you want to use it/have it for a purpose then you need to put a surprising amount of effort in. As mention, species like Holly can take over very quickly and needs regular management, if the woodland is old growth then regular tree management is needed.
You'll also need insurance, which will require a tree survey and management plan every 2 years to remain valid. Any work you do will likely need authorisation by the local authority and some trees maybe subject to TPOs.
Unless you leave it alone (which would beg the question, why buy it?), you should expect £2000 to £5000 as a minimum to manage it (depending on size/condition).
thanks all. Whilst there is lots of firewood on the site, getting it off in bulk would be extremely challenging (its a 1-in-4 hillside in places, and due to being an SSSI you can't clearfell it or use heavy machinery on it). it seems likely that its a bit "stuck" for the next 20 years as everything dies then new growth is slowly encouraged, which would also seriously hinder the ability to re-sell during that period if we wanted to.
there's likely to be some grants for some of that, but a wood with one of those plastic-wrapped shoots every 10 meters is not quite the same thing as an established woodland, so given all that, we've decided not to continue for now