owning a woodland

Managing woodland isn't as easy as most people think.

20 acres is a lot if it's just you and you only have weekends. We've had 3 acres for the last 12 years and I still haven't got on top of it, but it was left unmanaged for about 50 years.

Ancient woodlands still need managing. I actually prefer the older hardwoods to softwood plantations. The upside for you is it's not likely to be commercially valuable (hard to harvest). Digging an MTB track can be done sympathetically e.g. by using natural materials, making sure you minimise erosion etc.

As a rough example, felling an 80yr old dead oak and removing it would take a few people the best part of a day. Depending on access + ease of removal, a tree surgeon would charge £500+ I reckon.

Main considerations are what condition + age the trees are, any disease e.g. Ash Dieback and access. I would get it assessed by an ecology/arboriculture expert before buying.

it’d be a great place for our boys to go play with their mates

What's to stop them playing there anyway?

There's a smaller wood near me for sale. I was also tempted, especially as this one had a couple of fishing ponds within it so could see the opportunity for a bit of income, but in the end I decided that being a woods owner would probably become my only hobby because of the amount of time required to manage it, which I'd quickly resent.

Agree you should get an arboriculturalist to report on it so you understand the 'state' it's in currently. The usual legal stuff applies, legal searches, access rights, restrictive covenants etc. Does it have public rights of way that need maintaining, does it have infrastructure running through it (pylons, cables, pipes). Is there a watercourse / drainage and what are your riparian responsibilities. Has it ever had a domestic dwelling, could it be registered for Council Tax etc? Depending where it is and public access you should buy public indemnity insurance. If it's priced high enough there is also Stamp Duty Land Tax to pay. Lots of costs unfortunately. But it's a nice idea.

20 acres sounds fine. I have 8 and although it needs alot of work thats because its relatively new and needs a load of thinning. If it was as old as yours (possibly) I would spend my woodland work-days building bike tracks and the chainsaw could have a rest.

You can apply for small amounts of funding for maintenance etc. Not masses but if you don't waste it it would pay for chainsaw/quad/trailer over a few years which is pretty much all you need to maintain something like that.

What happened to ancient woodlands before people started managing them? Trees have been around a while.

thanks for all the tips so far

elling an 80yr old dead oak and removing it

any disease e.g. Ash Dieback

so there's tonnes of ash dieback in the area, a bunch of local woods have been severely thinned, so I'd assume there's also some in these woods.

With that and the oak tree, does anything *have* to be done, or can the trees just be left to die and fall over on their own, assuming they're not in the corner where we have a little hut/clearing? I might be being naiive here 🙂

assuming it has knackered trees vs nice trees (which is what a tree expert can tell us I guess) - how does that impact things? My thinking is the value is down to the fact its an anchient woodland of x size, more than the fact its got 38 oak trees that have £20k in wood inside them - am I wrong?

We’ve had 3 acres for the last 12 years and I still haven’t got on top of it

so I can get an idea of whats needed, how are you not "on top of it"? it is that there are too many trees in places where you want fewer so you need to chop some down?

What’s to stop them playing there anyway?

its a fenced bit of land with a gate. I wouldn't pop by kids into someone's back garden without permission, I woudln't do it here either

Does it have public rights of way that need maintaining, does it have infrastructure running through it (pylons, cables, pipes). Is there a watercourse / drainage and what are your riparian responsibilities. Has it ever had a domestic dwelling, could it be registered for Council Tax etc? Depending where it is and public access you should buy public indemnity insurance. If it’s priced high enough there is also Stamp Duty Land Tax to pay. Lots of costs unfortunately. But it’s a nice idea.

fortunately, its in a bit of an awkward spot eaching up to the top of the hill so almost none of those. No rights of way, no infra, no watercourse, no dwelling (it was once owned by one thats next door, I think, but separated since).

Most ancient woodlands were managed. I would not take managing a wood lightly as although people see them as playgrounds they are part of the ecosystem. The number of species of plants and critters is crashing due to climate change, farming, poor management and presure from access for leisure and housing.

The remaining oasis of trees need to be properly treated.

so there’s tonnes of ash dieback in the area

You have responsibility to sort if it's on your land. There are/were grants to help with the cost. But you have to sort it. Seller should probably be sorting before selling... shouldn't they? Or is there a don't look don't tell excuse for selling without first removing?

Again something I'd love.  But maybe not all the work 

I want to do this as well.

Neighbours up the road (farmers) bought a 15 acre wood and it’s used as a wedding venue and wild camping / team building activities. They also manufacture charcoal for barbecues which is a 48 hour non stop activity with about a burn a month on average.

It’s a big undertaking to manage any woodland if you don’t want it to get to be impenetrable. Need to fell old and diseased trees, clear areas of undergrowth and replant trees. 20 acres is a large area and if steep it will seem even bigger. Anyone thinking it’s a hour here or there is in for a serious awakening. If you don’t have the kit and aren’t used to serious graft it’s probably not for you.

Isn't it stuff like liability insurance, that puts a stopper on most of this stuff. It might be ok for your friends & family, but when the locals find out about your trails and start trespassing, & or damaging themselves, you may run into problem. Hopefully some-one with knowledge on this will comment.

PS: Sounds like a great idea.

You have responsibility to sort if it’s on your land. There are/were grants to help with the cost. But you have to sort it. Seller should probably be sorting before selling… shouldn’t they? Or is there a don’t look don’t tell excuse for selling without first removing?

You would have a responsibility if there is a danger to the public - rights of way, boundaries, adjoining roads etc, but otherwise it does not require any 'sorting'.<br /><br />Woodland does not need any management at all. Of course, you may want to put some management in place depending on what your own objectives are. If you're not wanting to profit from the timber then it requires nothing. If you're managing it for wildlife then there's a whole host of different things you could do depending on the particular site and the particular wildlife that you wanted to manage for, but that would be up to you. You certainly don't need to be clearing out trees just because they are dead (ridiculous) or removing brambles and scrub for fun.

ok this might be the killer - but it turns out the land is also an SSSI - which seems to further limit what can be done with it.

Don't suppose anyone on here owns ancient woodland in a national park that's also in an SSSI? 😀

Our little plot is just on the edge of a SSSI. They do seem to do quite a lot of tree work there. Mostly removing the out of place pine trees. Probably depends why it's a SSSI as to what you can do.

SSSI and national park?
That's a whole barrel of fun there with limitations on operations due to the SSSI (depends why it is one) and maybe some management prescriptions too to maintain the particular interest. That before any planning issues with your hoped for use of it.

Not necessarily a game stopper but certainly something you need to do due diligence on and it will limit your plans for 'fun'.

Don't know about SSSI's, but when we got ours it was very overgrown with hawthorn and brambles, plus loads of fallen trees. It was impossible to walk a lot of it until it was cleared, and there are some sections that need work, plus brambles keep coming back.

Ours is part ancient woodland part commercial, planted in the early 1950's (we think), then left. So all the conifers weren't thinned out and many are starting to die out, but this is good for the log burner!

'Management' now consists of cutting up fallen trees, clearing brambles and trying to plant new, native trees.

Don't forget the cost, apart from the actual land. What's access like, will you need a 4 wheel drive vehicle? Do you have a chainsaw and PPE? Add training as well.

Still love ours, but just need more time to spend there.

Don’t suppose anyone on here owns ancient woodland in a national park that’s also in an SSSI? 😀

a local community initiative near me  bought 20 or 30 odd acres woodland that is also an sssi (not in a national park)

for £1

who is selling it and why? Often when landowners are faced with inheritance tax bills their first thought is to try and sell their liabilities- land that comes with burdens of ownership rather - rather than  any of their assets that yeild  income.

think about whether anyone would buy it off you if you (or your kids) had to sell it.

the community imitative went bust

its a fenced bit of land with a gate. I wouldn’t pop by kids into someone’s back garden without permission, I woudln’t do it here either

Very wise. I would suggest looking into electric fencing and private security to keep your little ones safe in their ancient woodland.

There isn't a blade of grass in this country that someone doesn't own - why can't woodlands be owned by the council/state and be managed for everyone?  'Owning a woodland' harks back to the Normans, IMHO.

Just went on some buy a woodland website and they seem to start at £50,000 for little ones and rise quickly.

This is a direct cut and paste from a .gov.uk site:

===

Minimum intervention areas

Whilst wildlife generally benefits from management in accordance with this guide, it is not necessary for environmental gains for every part of all woodlands to be actively managed. Awkward or remote corners, steep-sided streamsides, very wet areas and sites with very shallow and drought-prone soils can be left completely unmanaged to grow large trees and build up accumulations of dead wood, which would provide habitats for specialised and often rare species.

===

There is a theoretical possibility of someone imposing an order on you if you have excessive disease and pests present. But in general, you don't have to do anything, and this form of (no) management is explicitly supported.

(RoW could be another issue, but the OP says not in the area he's considering.)

Very wise. I would suggest looking into electric fencing and private security to keep your little ones safe in their ancient woodland.

not sure of your point? the woodland already has these things, with only one entrance, and bordered by fields with grazing animals, I'd assume its in the farmer's interests to keep the fences in good condition.

I found the list of "operations likely to damage the area" - these apply to the whole area, of which the woods are a fairly unusual part (the majority of the landscape is grassland), but include

1 Cultivation, including ploughing, rotovating, harrowing, and re-seeding.
2 Grazing.
3 Stock feeding.
4 Mowing or other methods of cutting vegetation.
5 Application of manure, fertilisers and lime.
6 Application of pesticides, including herbicides (weedkillers).
7 Dumping, spreading or discharge of any materials.
8 Burning.
9 The release into the site of any wild, feral or domestic animal*, plant or seed.
10 The killing or removal of any wild animal*, including pest control.
11 The destruction, displacement, removal or cutting of any plant or plant remains,
including tree, shrub, herb, hedge, dead or decaying wood, moss, lichen, fungus,
leaf-mould and turf.
12 Tree and/or woodland management+.
14 The changing of water levels and tables and water utilisation (including irrigation,
storage and abstraction from existing water bodies and through boreholes).
20 Extraction of minerals, including topsoil, subsoil, chalk and lime.
21 Construction, removal or destruction of roads, tracks, walls, fences, hardstands,
banks, ditches or other earthworks, or the laying, maintenance or removal of
pipelines and cables, above or below ground.
22 Storage of materials.
23 Erection of permanent or temporary structures, or the undertaking of engineering
works, including drilling.
24 Modification of natural or man-made features, clearance of boulders, large stones,
loose rock or scree infilling of quarries.
25 Removal of geological specimens, including rock samples, minerals and fossils.
26 Use of vehicles or craft likely to damage or disturb features of interest.
27 Recreational or other activities likely to damage or disturb features of interest.
28 Game and waterfowl management and hunting practices.

its not looking good 🙁

Broadly speaking, trees (esp deciduous) can be left alone for decades and if they fall over, so what. If you get a space cleared in the canopy from a fallen tree, new growth should sprout up in a few years. You can help it along by planting a sapling or keeping the brush low (when there is more light, brambles grow too).

As you say, the amenity value will be higher if extraction costs are high and there isn't much tall, straight 80 year old oak without knots (which is the good value stuff as it can be turned into floorboards etc).

Charcoal burning is a really good option for a bit of fun and quick cash, if you can sell it locally. You need to get a big steel burner and camp out/keep watch for a day or so.

Chances are the Ash dieback will spread within the next 10 years but you can deal with that tree-by-tree and replant with resistant species.

‘Management’ now consists of cutting up fallen trees, clearing brambles and trying to plant new, native trees.

Don’t forget the cost, apart from the actual land. What’s access like, will you need a 4 wheel drive vehicle? Do you have a chainsaw and PPE? Add training as well.

it seems relatively thin under-cover at the moment, but tbh we only wondered up the path in there, didn's spend a lot of time exploring the whole site. Its on a steep, north-facing slope, so I wonder if that naturally restricts light and stops brambles etc taking over?

Access is good, there's a road up to the fence, and inside the site there's a track along one edge I think you could take a Jimny or similar down, that looks in fairly good nick, but (if you're not trying to get large amounts of wood off-site) it might be fine just on foot within the site. Buying a chainsaw is a benefit, not a cost 🙂 on the training side, the woods is handily about 3 miles from the one agricultural collage in the area, which runs wooland management courses, so I can probably stick myself on a few of those if it pans out

You could also offer the wood as a training area for the college and get some work done by students for free*

*possibly, just guessing really

why can’t woodlands be owned by the council/state and be managed for everyone?

Eh? Loads of them are. Forests all over the place.

Woodland doesn’t need to be managed. There was nature before we came along and it will thrive once we bugger off. Most of this country was forest and woodland before we came along. Who the hell managed it then, badgers?

stops brambles etc taking over?

Brambles are an early coloniser and will normally be shaded out by mature trees regardless of aspect. You may get some of course but they won't take over a woodland unless you clear felled it.

Any sporting rights to be considered? If not you could make a few bob by renting them out. You may even be able to tie up land management in the deal. I know a few people who shoot in exchange for fencing, access management etc and this will deter unwanted visitors as well. 

You'll have to decide on an approach to management. Is it just let it go or do you follow a plan which can, of course, have a variety of approaches? I would be removing, gradually any non native softwood and probably hardwood, culling pests such as squirrels and Muntjac and looking at old parkland as a good model. You may differ. 

not sure of your point? the woodland already has these things, with only one entrance, and bordered by fields with grazing animals, I’d assume its in the farmer’s interests to keep the fences in good condition.

This is reassuring but my fear is that it will prove wholly inadequate when it comes to keeping poor people out.

I work on an estate with a SSSI woodland inside a National park… Looking at the restrictions listed above you won’t be able to do much with it. If you do and someone finds out the fines are substantial. Think of it more as being a ‘land steward’ then owning it. 

If it's not too cheeky, how much are they wanting for it?

I'd love to own a bit of the land near me - mostly ancient birch woods. Romantically the idea of being the 'land steward' for it, preserving it for the next generation and providing my stove with an endless supply with the thinnings and windfall really appeals.

If it’s not too cheeky, how much are they wanting for it?

A lot. £200k - we live in the south east in an area full of London commuters. I don't think they'll get that, but at £10k/acre, compared to some grassland on the same escarpment that sold for £25k/acre it's pretty cheap.

Our thinking is more opportunity lost than anything else, our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up. The vague idea was to use it then move it on with relatively little loss.

I'm lucky enough to live in a woodland, albeit in Oz.

It was logged about 100 years ago, and there's still evidence from old stumps, etc.

Our place is 6 acres, but we're surrounded by 100s of acres of it. The previous owners did a great job of clearing the weeds so it's relatively straightforward to maintain now. In fact it's far easier than if we had lawn, etc.

By being registered as a voluntary conservation reserve (about half the land) everything stays on the land. Trees that fall stay put. The council gives us a choice between rate relief or payment for conservation work. This effectively means we don't **** around with it - aside from having a walking trail through it.

Council has also bought up some large blocks adjacent as conservation reserves.

We also have a wet weather creek that runs through, which is a drainage easement so has to be kept clear. There's rock marking from Indigenous food preparation which is pretty cool.

On the image the yellow line is our approximate boundary. One of the adjoining properties (~30acres) has been empty for +20 years. The red line shows (very roughly) the secret DH track i've considered building - it's very steep.

Our thinking is more opportunity lost than anything else, our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up. <br /><br />

I always think this but I think they take it for granted. It’s the main reason I’d like to build a mtb trail - we have to drive to get to anything and a lot of there mates can ride to trails.

I always think this but I think they take it for granted. It’s the main reason I’d like to build a mtb trail – we have to drive to get to anything and a lot of there mates can ride to trails.

For sure they'd take it for granted, I just think an upbringing with a sense of adventure/freedom/roaming around doing what you like would be pretty sweet. My wife's worried they wouldn't get into it and we'd just end up with an expensive asset that's difficult to sell, which is fair.

Instead of spending £200k on a patch of woodland that your family might enjoy, could it be worth looking at cashing in your assets in the expensive SE and moving somewhere cheaper?

You could buy a house (near a forest where your family can spend time together) for much less money and use your equity to reduce your working hours (i.e. work part -time).

Win-win. More family time, less stress and better riding than in the SE?

Your wife is right in many ways. It will be an expensive asset but it I would argue it would be sellable to someone, eventually. Not wanting to to be too contrary to some of the advice offered but as a woodland owner myself the amount of 'maintenance' it requires is exactly the amount you're willing to put in. I lost 40 or so trees to Arwen, many are still down/hanging in the woods. So what? It's a woods. The animals don't care, the other trees don't care. Extracting them is a time consuming and dangerous process so Im not going in all guns blazing, but thats just fine as it will still be there in a year/10 years/100 years time. The only loser is me as the firewood value of those trees ebbs away with time.

But that all said - with the restrictions you listed on these woods it's likely that doing anything enjoyable needs a permit or is barred. You won't own them - you just were the unlucky sod that bought them for everyone else to look at it would seem. My first call would be to the local forestry/woodlands officer to clarify just what can be done.

our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up. The vague idea was to use it then move it on with relatively little loss.

£200k just so your kids can play in a wood!?

Kids want to play where their mates are. They don't knock around in woods like we used to do in the 70s. And even then we'd get bored of wood (a) and move to wood (b) for the next school holidays. Then we progressed to quarries! 🙂

I dont have a wood, but i do have farmland.

£200k, for an 'ancient' wood, on the side of a steep hill, in a national park, which is an SSSI and not particularly local to you.

No, No, No.

Our thinking is more opportunity lost than anything else, our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up

You could do an awful lot of other stuff with £200k!  Putting that sort of money into probably a one-trick pony seems 'brave' - you could spend much less and create some proper family memories combining travel and biking.
I have a concern: What happens if/when the novelty wears off for the boys?  You are putting a large amount of money into something that may not interest them in a couple of years* ..... then what?
Another concern would be being held liable if someone starts using the woodland without your knowledge and then falls out of a tree or injuring themselves in some way.
Would owning this land tie you into living in the same area while you still have it?
On the plus side, as my Dad once said, they're not making it (land) any more..... may as well buy some while you can!
* As the father of 3 girls now in their early 20's I can guarantee that most of the things I thought they'd want to do in their childhood never actually happened simply because they wanted to do something else!  By the time your boys are 17 they will have discovered, beer, cars and girls - and will soon be off to Uni.

It's the latest middle/ professional class status symbol isn't it? Or so I've read once.   Woodland ownership but families for pleasure apparently took off during covid.  I must admit it appeals, those of us that are outdoorsy, and a certain age.... its all a bit shallows and amazon's and yes I love the idea of owning my own bit of wood close by, but only if I was relatively free to do what I wanted with it.   There's no fun if you can't thin it easily,  build some paths whether for walking,  biking or quad, build a tree house,  a den,  make a camp fire.    With those restrictions it seems its not for you,  or me.   In reality there isn't one for me and although my kids enjoy a walk in one of the closely pockets of wood,  they get bored if there too often.   It's a lovely dream though....a bit of Woodland.....by a lake....idyllic!

Another thing to consider - if this wood can be fairly easily accessed from a road then fly-tippers will love it. A wood that no-one is looking after will soon be spotted and you as the land-owner would be responsible for the clear-up costs.

I nearly bought a wood once. Bid did'nt quite make it.

In hindsight I'm glad it fell through.

I'm still riding/walking around the same wood now ... Well over 25 years later.

I still would like a wood, but now find the actual ownership and bullshit fencing abhorant.

Different view now on remote/massive acre land ownership.

Why can't I enjoy a wood in the village I live, that is Owned by someone on the other side of the world. Especially when the obnoxious Private signs appear everywhere.

1066 :-(. Probably the same before.

Humans are obsessed with land, and know your place;-)

If I had a woodland I would build a rudimentary shelter and simply go and sit in it. It beats a bog standard living room.

If looking for the woodland feel, but dont want to buy the woodland. In Scotland (and very near me in one Wood) there is the 'Hutting' communities - think Dachas.

Hutting

Do they have similar in England?

I think it’s called Cottaging

My wife’s worried they wouldn’t get into it and we’d just end up with an expensive asset that’s difficult to sell

Is it in the Clayton - Offham SSSI?

so lots of people are focussing on the asking price, which is why I didn't mention it in the OP. To be clear, we don't have this kind of money, but we could raise it fairly easily as a mortgage against our house. My thinking is that if land prices continue to rise roughly in line with the rate of interest (which isn't gauranteed, but is a risk I'm comfortable with), and we don't have to sell it in a hurry, it'll basically be "free" to own it over 15 years or whatever, aside from the cost/time in maintaining it, hence my post.

We could move somewhere else, but with lower costs come lower wages so I'm not convinced we'd be able to work significantly less than we do today, and anyway, we like it here, which is why we're considering investing in a second bunch of property in the area.

You could do an awful lot of other stuff with £200k!

you could, but most of it would depreciate towards being worth nothing. The idea of this was that it costs a total of maybe a grand or 2 per year. Its not a great investment, sure, but its not like buying a new ferrari or some horses.

Kids want to play where their mates are.

yeah the idea is all their mates would pile round too, its easily walkable from the village.

£200k, for an ‘ancient’ wood, on the side of a steep hill, in a national park, which is an SSSI and not particularly local to you.

I don't think any of those things are deal breakers (I think a mile and a half is pretty local as they come) except for the SSSI. Steep hill is great for riding (the bottom bit is on the "floor" of the valley so there's plenty of flat woods to hang out in too)

if this wood can be fairly easily accessed from a road then fly-tippers will love it

a good thought, but fortunately I think the risk is low - to get to the woods you have to drive down a ~1 mile singletrack lane that is a favourite for fly tippers, but the entrance to the wood is ~20 yards (with a straight line of site) from a house (that I think used to own it) - so a fly tipper would have to drive their rattly transit all the way down a nice secluded lane and tip in front of someones front door.

Hutting

Do they have similar in England?

Never heard of that but I'll look into it. My guess is the land round here is generally too populated for it to exist - there's probably some outside of the south east but once something is a few hours away its use becomes really tricky

Clayton – Offham SSSI?

hah, it was only an amount of time till someone figured it out, yes. Its Clayton Holt

there's already a bunch of structures in there with various levels of trashed-ness (including one that had running water and a shower at some point), a couple of reasonable sheds - and one very old looking stone "cottage" (ie a single room maybe 15' x 10') with reasonable roof and a log burner. I don't think I'd have to build\construct anything

our boys are the perfect age to make great use of it for 15 years, and another site is unlikely to come up. The vague idea was to use it then move it on with relatively little loss.

Porn is easily accessible on phones nowadays - there's no need for your lads to go feverishly searching round the woods for discarded dog eared Razzles or Readers wife hedge porn like we did in the 80's

Parcels of woodland are a vanity fashion lifestyle statement, not an investment. It may go up, as tulips did once, but it's not an "investment" in the conventional sense, it's more like a monkey gif NFT. You're relying on a greater fool for resale value, not the intrinsic return on the investment.

If it was commercially viable with a turnover and profit, that would be a different matter.

I would perhaps advise a consultation with a Land Management Consultant to get the finer detail of what you can/cant do and your responsibilities with respects to potential burdens/covenants etc.
Most give the first hour free. Maybe worth paying for a few hours of their time to discuss SSSI etc. More in depth info than what can get from an internet forum/Google scraping.

Perhaps there is income potential such as 'Cottaging' etc, or further development/value add of the already existing structures.

Then armed with all the info, determine if the purchase is right for you.

This is the one I was (very briefly) considering. Luckily someone has bought it, so no longer an issue!

https://www.woods4sale.co.uk/woodlands/central-west-england/2132.htm

3,5 miles from my house. Not too bad if I was really keen.

> >>> but it’s not an “investment” in the conventional sense

I was under the impression that's exactly what amenity woodland has become since it's exempt from capital gains tax. It's value is pretty intangible, just as long as the next person will pay a bit more for it.

My thinking is that if land prices continue to rise roughly in line with the rate of interest (which isn’t gauranteed, but is a risk I’m comfortable with), and we don’t have to sell it in a hurry, it’ll basically be “free” to own it over 15 years or whatever, aside from the cost/time in maintaining it

That's possibly a fairly big assumption given that it's woodland with very limited potential use.  Anyway..... if it's that easy I'm surprised more people aren't doing it - especially when you say that you don't think they'll get £200k for it?

It sounds like quite a lot of self-justification going on, but it's your money so fill your boots!

Out of interest and slightly off-topic, but how did those of you that have posted in this thread who own woodlands end up with a spare £50-200k to buy one in the first place!?

we don’t have this kind of money, but we could raise it fairly easily as a mortgage against our house.

The monthly payments on a mortgage would be >£1000/month (15yr mortgage) - how is it only going to cost you £1-£2k/year?  If you actually had £200k spare it would make in the region of £110k in interest over the same period..... a mortgage is going to cost more!

It wasn't as expensive as that.

Savings, no mortgage, and not spending much.

Out of interest and slightly off-topic, but how did those of you that have posted in this thread who own woodlands end up with a spare £50-200k to buy one in the first place!?

Odd question, I should imagine there is all sorts of ways, inheritance, downsizing, pension draw down, savings, selling family silver, not spunking £££ on having the latest cars & gizmos.

Out of interest and slightly off-topic, but how did those of you that have posted in this thread who own woodlands end up with a spare £50-200k to buy one in the first place!?

in our case the plan is just to raise it against the mortgage on our house.

The monthly payments on a mortgage would be >£1000/month (15yr mortgage) – how is it only going to cost you £1-£2k/year? If you actually had £200k spare it would make in the region of £110k in interest over the same period….. a mortgage is going to cost more!

the only cost is the interest you're paying on the mortgage. Any equity you're paying in is money you get right back out when you sell it, so can be excluded.

Long term land prices rise by around 5% per year (source -> https://www.savills.co.uk/landing-pages/rural-land-values/rural-land-values.aspx) - as long as my interest rate is below 5% per year, the money I spend on interest (say 4% of 200k, over 10 years, which is £80k) is recovered when the land sells for 5% per annum more than I paid for it (£125k profit, minus various taxes) - the net gain in that example would be £45k minus costs

Now aminity woodland isn't quite as easy to value as farmland or a farmed forest, but its probably a reasonable assumption that it follows similar trends - there's risk there, but one I'm happy to take. I don't think its the same as an NFT as there is value in holding the land, my family and I will get personal pleasure from our use of it, as the current owners have, and as the next owners have, but it's correct to say that I can only sell it for what the next person is willing to pay. A bit like a house, car, shares, or anything else you can buy

"Access is good, there’s a road up to the fence, and"

And do you have Right of Way over this road?

I looked at buying some woodland a few years back. Access was usually a problem...

the only cost is the interest you’re paying on the mortgage.

And the ongoing maintenance costs - because it will need maintenance! You'll need public liability insurance too as a minimum.

The fact you are borrowing against your house makes it an even crazier idea IMO.

And do you have Right of Way over this road?

its apparently a shared driveway (I'd assume shared between the house, which is split in 3, and the woods) as the gravel parking spot is apparently dedicated to the woods, but this is something that we'd obviously have to check.

Pinged a few emails out, Natural England (who enforce SSSI) won't talk to me about whether I'd be able to put a "path" in as I'm not the owner, and the estate agents are denying its in an SSSI (I've gone back with evidence suggesting otherwise), so unsurprisingly it looks like a right ballache.

its apparently a shared driveway

...so that's shared driveway maintenance too! 🙂

Your not buying it from this person are you?

A friend has done this by accident. She bought it to start a forest school, but no business plan or planning permission in place. So ended up with an expensive piece of woodland she cannot afford to properly maintain several miles away from home. The mortgage is crippling her financially (extended house mortgage to be able to buy the land).
She would be selling at a loss, and yet can’t really afford to keep or maintain it. It’s used maybe a once or twice a month for a few hours at most, as there are no amenities to use- no toilet, water etc.
she thought she would be able to camp on it, just her and a friend - but even that isn’t allowed and neighbours are very quick to report.
I think the advise would be research, research, research and yet more research, and think of it as money lost not an investment.

And.....

it is in a really awkward place to get any vehicle bigger than a small family car too. It’s on a very steep incline and the wood isn’t of great quality. Everything in and out would be manual labour, no machinery would be able to gain access. She simply can’t afford to get it logged, cleared and replanted. The land cannot was used for anything else.
Basically she would need one of the neighbouring houses to want to buy it to add to their already big gardens, which given they sold it to her, probably isn’t going to happen, unless any new owner wants it back.

Amenity woodland

Please dont rush or make hasty decisions. £200k of borrowed money is a lot of dough. As Mervin King BoE governor once said 'property prices are speculative, but debt is real'.

And the ongoing maintenance costs – because it will need maintenance! You’ll need public liability insurance too as a minimum.

right, which was the entire point of this thread, to get actual info from people who've done a similar thing. Liability insurance is pretty cheap as there's no rights of way - in the region of a couple of hundred quid

The fact you are borrowing against your house makes it an even crazier idea IMO.

its just a cheap line of credit. We can easily afford the mortgage, its much less than we used to have on the house, so don't see it as a significant issue.

so that’s shared driveway maintenance too! 🙂

there's potentially some, for sure, but its not too long (couple hundred meters), tarmac'd, in good nick, and has light traffic, so I'd be surprised if it needed a huge amount of spend.

Clayton Holt? I stared building, then gave up on, a cheeky trail in there 😉

I think you need to really understand the costs/risks.   You assume the farmers will fix the neighbouring fences, but those fences may be there to protect "your" wood rather than their field.  AFAIK we've mostly given up on trying to contain ash dieback, but it will still need thought about - you presumably don't want trunks/branches falling on your kids, and once its cut down I think there are still rules on what you can do with the wood?  Ash dieback is not the only plant pathogen though - some of the others are less common but because we try to contain them are potentially more problematic if you OR A NEIGHBOUR gets them - I think you can be ordered to fell trees, put biosecurity in place etc.

the only cost is the interest you’re paying on the mortgage. Any equity you’re paying in is money you get right back out when you sell it, so can be excluded.

Presumably you've not had this conversation with a financial adviser?

Long term land prices rise by around 5% per year (source -> https://www.savills.co.uk/landing-pages/rural-land-values/rural-land-values.aspx) – as long as my interest rate is below 5% per year, the money I spend on interest (say 4% of 200k, over 10 years, which is £80k) is recovered when the land sells for 5% per annum more than I paid for it (£125k profit, minus various taxes) – the net gain in that example would be £45k minus costs

Once you deduct capital gains, stamp duty, legal fees, insurance, repairs/tools etc you might eat up a lot of that surplus!  Many financial advisors would say that if you can afford £8K per annum on an "investment" the best place to put it would be your pension (the gov would effectively turn it into about 11+ before you do anything, then over 10 years you might expect it to grow to be probably £150K+.  That might mean you can retire earlier or have more cash to enjoy in retirement with your grown up kids or grandkids.

Now aminity woodland isn’t quite as easy to value as farmland or a farmed forest, but its probably a reasonable assumption that it follows similar trends – there’s risk there, but one I’m happy to take.

As a general trend it might be a valid assumption, but what matters is what happens to the value of that land in the next 10 years not a general trend.  I can see lots of things impacting that - e.g. acceptance of wood-fired heating, local developments / local authority development plan - and the neighbouring land, changes to government rules on SSSI or Ancient Woodland, policy changes on "right to roam" (or even hints at it), tax incentives or otherwise for owning certain types of land, availability of grant support for certain types of land management.  Now those could all help the value or hinder it.

I don’t think its the same as an NFT as there is value in holding the land, my family and I will get personal pleasure from our use of it, as the current owners have, and as the next owners have, but it’s correct to say that I can only sell it for what the next person is willing to pay. A bit like a house, car, shares, or anything else you can buy

Its probably not quite as crazy as NFT in that its unlikely that to be worth zero when you come to sell, but its definitely not an investment I'd be borrowing to make.  If I had a million pound inheritance I'd maybe consider it... You've already said you think £200K is overpriced (on some definitions it definitely is but as open market value it may not be as someone in SE England will have too much money and a clever tax efficient way to own woods with it - not borrowing to do it!).  Never buy and asset you think is over values just because currently other people seem to think its worth more too.

My personal opinion is that remortgaging your house in a high interest rate environment (with falling house prices) in order to buy a woodland (that's probably also falling in value, in the near term at least) on a steep slope that's a SSSI with limited timber value or shooting potential is a really really bad idea.

this is very close to me https://assets.reapit.net/stp/live/pdf.php?p=JCC230006&t=S

half the size, half the price. Still south east.

it's been on the market a year. It's in an AONB, next to an SSSI. It includes a scheduled ancient monument. On a steep hill, limited access. Bridle way next to it.

You will never be able to build on it, over and above the two derelict structures on there (and they are really at the four walls only stage of derelict).

I know the bloke next door, and asked what it was like (and have had a couple of cheeky looks myself). He suggested not touching it with a bargepole. We have a vast amount of Ash Dieback here (another neighbour has taken down ~400 trees, with more to come, and the NT are forever lopping things down. Great for the wood burner, less for the scenery).

It is a lovely quiet wood at the moment, with a large amount of wildlife. But owning it, and having responsibility for it? No. But then i'm lucky enough to have a reasonable garden, in a quiet area, with a lot of trees already. Others may not be that lucky.

This steep hill...how stable is it...and how techniclly robust is that determination?

See that road labelled Under Hill Road...it's under your hill.....if there was to be a landslip from your hill causing damage to that road and the properties below...how liable are you?... see 'Undercliff Drive' in the IOW.

That's the question with my profesional engineering geologist hat on.

With my high horse hat on...you want to borrow money (so keeping the wheels of an economy based on infinite growth at all costs (including the environment) greased) to 'buy' land that you don't need to live, off someone. Where did that person get the land from?....somewhere down the line it's been stolen. ...What you are buying is something that you don't need, that you will never actually really deep down own with money that you don't have which essentially that comes from destroying nature..' The Commons'...(to use the principles outlined in 'Sacred Economics' etc).

Does it prevent someone/ something else taking it and destroying it?

I'll get down off that horse now....I don't really like it up there....devil's advocate etc etc.

I wonder if you could pay a landowner to rent a corner of the forest for your shelter and fire circle?

It’s chalk downland - very low chance of slippage.

There are plenty of woods on the other side of the A273 that your kids cloud play in anyaway.

A bit like a house, car, shares, or anything else you can buy

Not at all, and that was the point I was making. Shares mean you own a share in a company that (usually) makes a profit and returns something like 3-5% pa to shareholders. There's a risk it will go bust but there is also a reasonable expectation that it's going to keep on making money. A house is pretty much a distress purchase, *everyone* has to have somewhere to live and the supply is artificially suppressed by various policies.

A monkey gif is just a monkey gif that has no intrinsic value or return whatsoever. Sure, you still might make a fat profit if someone decides to pay even more than you did, but it's 100% based on the greater fool concept with no other measurable return on the investment whatsoever. I wonder how the owners of monkey gifs currently feel about their "investments"?

Of course the OP can spunk £200k on a status symbol - people do sillier things - but there's a big risk they'll find the resale market rather illiquid for such a niche product.