[Closed] Overtaking.

Let's do another situation. There's a small gap in oncoming traffic, then another slightly larger one. The small gap is not enough for me to pass, but Speedy M3 uses it to pass me. Then in the next gap, he can sail by, but there's not enough space for both of us. But I could have gone had he not been in front of me. The next gap after that doesn't come up for 5 miles.

Or how about a slightly different one. There's a gap which is big enough for the M3 to overtake part of the queue but not all, shortly followed by another similar but slightly bigger gap. The M3 driver sits and waits behind the car in front to give him a chance to overtake, which he doesn't take. He's then stuck behind the slow vehicle at the front for the next 5 miles when he could have been clear, as is the car immediately in front. How is that fair?

Can I ask another quick question? Given recent headlines, do you assume that the father in every family living on benefits is only one step away from killing his children in a fire?

Yes, good point. 😕

Well he appears to be assuming that every driver who overtakes a "queue" in stages is a reckless maniac, so I thought it a reasonable analogy.

Must admit I've not read most of the pages as I get the idea, so, my contribution.

As the occasional driver of a very slow vehicle (tractor) on a busy a road with numerous straights and good sight lines, I can confirm that peoples overtaking abillity is rubbish. I know how easy it is to overtake a tractor up this road because I have done it in the Land Rover with trailer, gutless vans, poxy courtesy cars and even the hi-lux. Amazing how many people don't realise how easy it is to overtake a tractor, I've even been overtaken by cyclists.
Traffic builds up behind me because it won't overtake me, the only things that struggle to pass me are loaded lorries that don't catch up on a view point and other tractors, so I pull in for these.
Most unusual ones are the (generally) German saloons that follow me down the straights and overtake through the blind corners.

Must admit, when in the car it is quite satisfying to overtake 1/4 mile of cars on one of the good sight lines.

Must admit, when in the car it is quite satisfying to overtake 1/4 mile of cars on one of the good sight lines.

Queue jumper

Can a premier member please add the tags 'surfmatt=awesome' and 'molgrips=drivingmissdaisy' please 🙂

Or how about a slightly different one. There's a gap which is big enough for the M3 to overtake part of the queue but not all, shortly followed by another similar but slightly bigger gap. The M3 driver sits and waits behind the car in front to give him a chance to overtake, which he doesn't take. He's then stuck behind the slow vehicle at the front for the next 5 miles when he could have been clear, as is the car immediately in front. How is that fair?

That's not the situation I'm talking about. Why dont' you comment on the one I originally posted, because that's the one that realy annoys me.

Your situation is not as bad as mine, because he comes to the back of the queue so has to wait by rights.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

Well he appears to be assuming that every driver who overtakes a "queue" in stages is a reckless maniac,

No, I'm saying that every reckless aggressive maniac is a reckless aggressive maniac. If you have given every chance for people to make a move, and they don't, then fine, overtake. I've done the same.

For the 100th time, what I object to is people taking my turn away from me WHEN I AM INTENDING TO OVERTAKE MYSELF. Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

No, but they are more capable of overtaking, and from further behind, where they probably have a better line of sight.

Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

If you were going to over take, why didn't you? How can someone further back have that much faster reactions, unless you are indeed dithering, then feeling impotent.

I think we've found the root cause of Molgrips problem. He doesn't seem to appreciate the difference between "intending" to overtake & actually overtaking. If you spent less time "intending", they wouldn't be in a position to be overtaking you.

Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

Clearly they are not giving [s]me[/s] driving miss daisy [s]reasonable chance[/s] 5 miles to overtake, otherwise I would.

he whole discussion regarding your position on the road & having an earlier opportunity to overtake than cars behind you, purely by road position, has been covered extensively, with the general consensus being that you simply take too long to decide to overtake

No, because you have never seen me drive, and are imagining me drive based on an incorrect reading of my posts.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.

So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first? Speed is not an issue if there is room for either (but not both) of us to pass.

For the 100th time, what I object to is people taking my turn away from me WHEN I AM INTENDING TO OVERTAKE MYSELF

Then do it.

If "they" have commenced their overtaking manoeuvre and are already along-site you, preventing you from taking your opportunity, you have waited too long.

When you mention earlier that you have had this happen on numerous occasions, were you exaggerating? Serious question - not trying to stir things up further.

I've had it happen to me only once or twice in my driving years (I've been driving regularly since 1985). I drive 20k+ miles a year. Recent vehicles have been a Seat Ibiza, Honda CRV, BMW 320D and a couple of bikes.

I like to "make progress"; I have paid for advanced training in both the car and on motorcycles. I do not consider myself particularly fast/reckless. My licence is clean and I've never had an accident (touch wood).

EDIT: That may read like I am implying I am a driving god. I am not. What I guess I'm saying is that I realised/acknowledged my own driving skills weren't as good as I thought they were, so I did something about it. £130 ish will see you right on an IAM course. It's money well spent IMHO.

No, not exaggerating.

Trying to step away from the aggro now - there are plenty of people out there on the roads that I use who will force their way through, and will queue jump resulting in all the non-aggressive non-dangerous people having to wait much longer.

I do not believe this is fair.

I do not know if aracer and the others on this thread are in that category. Likewise, they do not know if I am in the dawdling hesitant category.

You are effectively saying that people in faster cars have more moral right to make progress than those in slower cars.
So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first? Speed is not an issue if there is room for either (but not both) of us to pass.

You are now quoting your own comments to argue against???

So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first?

So why do they deserve to overtake instead of me, when I was ready to go, and I had been there first?

If you were "ready to go", then you would have gone. Instead, you dithered long enough not only for someone who had less time than you to "get ready to go", then to actually "go". The twin outcomes of this being you get to places slower than you otherwise would, and it gives you an immense feeling of impotence for us all to poke fun at on here.

I do not believe this is fair.

[img] [/img]

I do not believe this is fair.

Unfortunately, fairness has little to do with it.

When on one of my IAM observed rides (pre passing the test). I was on the receiving end of a right bollocking for not filtering to the very front of a "queue" at some traffic lights. When asked why I had stopped behind the front two cars, I mumbled something along the lines of "it didn't feel polite, they were at the front first."

What then happened, was that they moved away from the lights very slowly and I was stuck behind them for a good few miles. If I'd have moved to the front of the line of cars, I'd have been away in a flash and out of everyone's way.

If you have given every chance for people to make a move, and they don't, then fine, overtake. I've done the same.

Phew - it's only taken 10 pages to get you to agree with that. Can we stop now that you've agreed with the rest of us (who aren't reckless aggressive maniacs)?

For the 100th time, what I object to is people taking my turn away from me WHEN I AM INTENDING TO OVERTAKE MYSELF. Clearly they are not giving me reasonable chance to overtake, otherwise I would.

What exactly has that got to do with the rest of the thread? The bit where everybody else is suggesting that they do give the drivers in front of them in the "queue" a chance to overtake first before choosing to overtake in stages themselves. I've probably also said that 100 times by now, and you still don't seem to be registering. You could always try pistonheads if you want some reckless aggressive maniacs to rant at - there are probably rather more of them there than here.

I do not know if aracer and the others on this thread are in that category.

So why do you wade in labelling us as such, simply because we choose to overtake a line of cares in stages in a perfectly safe and considerate manner? It would save an awful lot of time and trouble if you didn't do that...

Phew - it's only taken 10 pages to get you to agree with that. Can we stop now that you've agreed with the rest of us (who aren't reckless aggressive maniacs)?

I'm pretty sure I've spent 10 pages trying to make it clear that that's my viewpoint.

Some people seem to think that 1/10 of a second on a 200m straight is enough time to decide I'm a granny though.

So why do you wade in labelling us as such

The 'you' in my posts is the generic 'you', not any of you personally. At least, at first it was.

Unfortunately, fairness has little to do with it.

I have to disagree on that. I always try to be fair and decent, even in a car.

I have to disagree on that. I always try to be fair and decent, even in a car.

Which is highly commendable (I try to be as courteous as I possibly can too - manners maketh the man and all that jazz) and should be positively encouraged. But decisions [i]must [/i]be made quickly - being decisive and committed, does not make you a bad person. Being indecisive, on the modern test, will result in a fail.

Being indecisive on the open road will lead to the increased frustration of other drivers who [i]may [/i]subsequently take additional risks to get past. Leading to errors, excessive speed, aggressive behaviour and potentially worse.

For those of us who passed the test many years ago, it [i]really is[/i] worth investing a few pounds in some advanced driver training.

But decisions must be made quickly

Your emphasis is interesting. The penalty for not making a quick decision is a slightly slower journey. The penalty for making a quick decision and getting it wrong could be death.

So it's much better to just chill the **** out.

People seem to think that it's really really important to make good progress on the roads. Really, it's not that big of a deal.

If I get a really slow run up to my parents, it takes 1h40 instead of 1h30. That'll include traffic jams, dawdling drivers, lorries, the lot. And it only adds 10 mins. It's really not worth getting worked up over.

As above, I DO overtake cars when it's safe, but if it's at all marginal I don't go for it. It's not worth the risk. I think that as adults we should all be able to accept that sometimes you're held up. However it seems many people can't.

So it's much better to just chill the **** out.

In that case, put some sounds on, sit back and let those who want to 'make progress' do so 8)

EDIT:

Your emphasis is interesting. The penalty for not making a quick decision is a slightly slower journey. [b]The penalty for making a quick decision and getting it wrong could be death[/b].

Indeed it could.

Conversely, the penalty for not making a quick decision could result in the person (or 'queue') behind becoming increasingly frustrated and prepared to take risks they would otherwise not do (red mist descending).

I'm pretty sure I've spent 10 pages trying to make it clear that that's my viewpoint.

I'm not sure accusing anybody who has the temerity to overtake in stages of being a dangerous driver was necessarily the best way to get that across.

The 'you' in my posts is the generic 'you', not any of you personally

So who on this thread has shown any more evidence of being a reckless aggressive maniacs than you have of being dawdling and hesitant? If the answer is "nobody" then why are you even using such an argument?

I still find it strange that the person arguing so much against people making progress by overtaking is somebody who makes progress by overtaking. It would seem more obvious for somebody who didn't ever overtake at all to do so.

Let's knock around a few numbers.

45mph, 5 seconds deciding to pass or not to pass.

Car behind, let's use very simplistic formula, if 0-60 = 7 seconds, then 45-60 = 1.75s - let's add a bit more & allow for decision time too & call it 3.75s.
This leaves 1.25 seconds with the car now travelling at 60mph. Let's completely ignore that during acceleration, the car is covering more ground than when it was at 45mph or that it may continue to accelerate beyond 60mph & look only at those 1.25s at 60mph...
The car behind that was less hesitant has now covered an extra 8.5 metres compared to you at 45mph. Enough to close the gap & be close enough or alongside preventing your overtake. Cut 0.25 of a second from the 3.75s above & that car has travelled a further 1.7 metres further than you - now more than 10 metres!!
How far have you travelled in 5 seconds at 45mph...100 metres!!

I'm not sure accusing anybody who has the temerity to overtake in stages of being a dangerous driver was necessarily the best way to get that across.

Ok not dangerous necessarily, although I don't like to do it because I can't guarantee that any driver waiting to pull out is going to check their mirrors.

If the answer is "nobody" then why are you even using such an argument?

There are many reckless idiots, and to be honest I can't tell if you lot are in that group or not. You'd hardly describe yourself as dangerous if that were the case.

But really, the point is that queue jumping is rude. You can only legitimately do it IF you are absolutely sure that no-one in front if you wants to overtake. If you are forcing your way up the queue from 10 or 12 back, then you are probably delaying other people who were there before you.

I've also been in queues with a steady stream of fast cars doing it. Enough so that I never got the chance to overtake myself. That's clearly wrong.

45mph, 5 seconds deciding to pass or not to pass.

5 seconds is ages. That's borderline dithering.

Not quite sure I follow your point there though stb.

Whoa...Molgrips now decides he can sit back & chill, as the rest of us have pointed out is a perfectly reasonable way to travel & indeed, we have illustrated our good will to those wanting to travel faster by allowing them by.

if it's at all marginal I don't go for it

5 seconds is definitely dithering.

If the person in-front of me hasn't committed to their overtake manoeuvre in 2 or 3 seconds, and it was safe for me to do so, I'd have committed.

This does change significantly depending upon which vehicle I'm driving, but then I adjust my expectations accordingly. In the little Seat, overtaking opportunities rarely present themselves as I'm not comfortable with the amount of power available to get me out/past/back in quickly. The BMW is much easier and I find myself overtaking at least once or twice on my 90 mile round trip commute. On the bike it is a breeze. I can be out, past and back in in a couple of seconds without opening the bike up too much.

and one of the points we've spent hours on is that whilst an overtake may be marginal for you, it may be perfectly reasonable for someone else in a car with greater acceleration.

Yes... but what has happened in the past is that someone uses that opportunity to pass ME thereby denying me the next decent opportunity.

if he can accept it is possible to sit back & relax.

It's not about the time I lose, it's about the morality of the situation. People being selfish and greedy really upsets me.

But in turn by not taking advantage of, in their eyes, a suitable overtaking opportunity, aren't you holding them up? Isn't that selfish and greedy too?

Best to just let them get on with it.

Yeah but I'm first in the queue, so I should be allowed at least a reasonable chance. They can see I'm not in a sports car, that I'm looking to overtake, so they should give me fair chance.

If they can get clear of both me and the lorry, then fine, whatever. But if they can't, they need to force their way between me and the lorry, and then they are first in the queue and not me.

Basic queueing ettiquette applies everywhere in society, except on the roads. I don't like this. How many people have said 'just deal with it' on here?

If I pushed in front of you in the supermarket, would you 'just deal with it'?

That's borderline dithering

If I'd waited 5 seconds, maybe. But I don't wait that long.

The situation might be say, with a bend that's opening out. They can see 200m and decide that's time to go, but I'm not happy with a 200m gap (say) and wait til I can see 400m down the road, at which point he's alongside.

This is splitting hairs now, but the point is that being all zoomy is actually quite aggressive behaviour in itself. Try sprinting about a supermarket and see how other people look at you.

It's a dog eat dog world out there, and the 'snooze you lose' principle works here.

I'm not encouraging bad behaviour or lack of care/respect for others, that causes accidents and nobody has the right to put others at risk. But, if there's an appropriate overtaking opportunity and the person in front doesn't take it, then I will - providing it's safe to do so.

It's a dog eat dog world out there

Yes, and this is bad thing. And at odds with experiences when people are not in cars.

One incident I can remember - long straight, one car coming the other way, I'm a decent stopping distance back. There's someone in a quick car behind me. Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He's deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

Sorry Mol. A couple of things:
[quotemolgrips - Member
Yeah but I'm first in the queue, so I should be allowed at least a reasonable chance.
It sounds like you had the chance, but didn't take it.

They can see I'm not in a sports car, that I'm looking to overtake, so they should give me fair chance.

If they can get clear of both me and the lorry, then fine, whatever. But if they can't, they need to force their way between me and the lorry, and then they are first in the queue and not me.

If they need to force their way between you and the slow moving vehicle, that would p*ss me off too - however, there should be a two second gap. I can understand that gap being smaller if you were in the process of beginning the overtake and I'd be a bit frustrated at the idiot for doing so too. However, the highway code (which we have all read recently, haven't we?) which is the code of conduce for all road users states if we spot someone performing an overtake on us, we should leave them enough room to pull in safely.

Basic queueing etiquette applies everywhere in society, except on the roads. I don't like this. How many people have said 'just deal with it' on here?

See above. You may not like it, but we have a written code of conduct. As soon as potentially lethal equipment is introduced into the equation, etiquette must take a back seat to rules and common sense.

If I pushed in front of you in the supermarket, would you 'just deal with it'?

It's a completely different scenario. If I were stood a few metres from the checkout fumbling in my pocket for change, then yes, I would deal with it - unless I had my bag of Michael Douglas-esque toys with me 😆

EDIT: I don't [i]actually [/i]have a bag of Michael Douglas-esques toys!

I'm in agreement with Molgrips here. My personal hate is people overtaking me on a slip-road to join main carriageway, across double lines. Just causes everybody to pile in towards narrow end of slip-road, braking, and general chaos, all because some monkey saw a gap not even a dentist would spot.

Problem is Molegrips, everybody is just out there for themselves. Might be a case of, cant beat 'em..

Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He's deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

Reckless, possibly. Impatient, possibly.

What could have been done differently? If you can see that far up the road, you should have been in the position to execute the manoeuvre once the oncoming traffic has passed. Not start the manoeuvre as the traffic passes. It is just a case of planning earlier. Drop back a bit. Judge the speed of the oncoming vehicle and begin your acceleration process earlier - imagine there's a great big elastic band between you and the vehicle you want to pass.

When I wish to overtake (in addition to making sure nothing's coming from the other way) I check my mirrors, indicate, check mirrors again, look over shoulder (for motorbikes/things in blind spot), if clear I pull out. I don't drive close to the vehicle in front of me (despite being a woman, I don't tailgate) and anyway I have a 4x4 so I can usually see up the road quite well (and wouldn't pull out to overtake unless I could see).

It bothers me when I am indicating to pull out and some **** behind me pulls out without indicating and overtakes me when I am beginning my overtaking move. I doubt they can see past me, and they obviously haven't noticed me indicating - or are ignoring it - both of which are worrying.

Gripe No. 2. When I am towing my caravan, and am slowing for the queues at, for example, the Severn Bridge, I leave more space for braking because I am heavier. I f***ing well hate it when some C-word comes whizzing up and pops into the space I have left as braking distance. I have to brake hard(er) in order not to ram them up the arse (which I fervently wish I could do!). Get in line and wait your turn like the rest of us - it shows bad anticipation, bad manners and just generally ... bad.

Rant over.

molgrips - Member

It's a dog eat dog world out there

Yes, and this is bad thing. And at odds with experiences when people are not in cars.

One incident I can remember - long straight, one car coming the other way, I'm a decent stopping distance back. There's someone in a quick car behind me. Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He's deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

And this was a bad driver, and a bad experience. He put you at risk. I wouldn't do that.

It looks like you made your intentions obvious, and they ignored this. Agreed, reckless behaviour.

If however you didn't make your intentions obvious, didn't immediately take the opportunity to overtake, then I'd be gone.

I'll just try this one again and make it as simple as possible:

1) it's not a queue - the supermarket analogy is rubbish - if it was nobody would be allowed to overtake the vehicle at the front
2) you shouldn't overtake somebody who's clearly going to try and overtake (as opposed to sticking their car out occasionally but never showing any sign of doing anything more)
3) anybody who overtakes by bullying somebody who is trying to overtake themselves is a dangerous idiot - I'm assuming none of those are on this thread
4) there's nothing wrong with overtaking a line of cars in stages when it is clear that the cars in front of you aren't going to overtake (as is usually the case)

Is it possible for all of us to agree with that, and if not explain why it is wrong?

So would I. However I would not queue jump from 10 back, which is what I see a lot of. You just don't know the intentions of the people you are cutting infront of.

I still think it's a queue. You can queue jump in the supermarket if someone lets you. They can't explicitly let you in a car queue, but you can read their road position. However you need to give them a GOOD chance to make a move.

you shouldn't overtake somebody who's clearly going to try and overtake (as opposed to sticking their car out occasionally but never showing any sign of doing anything more)

This comes down to what you think is an acceptable amount of road in which to overtake.

One incident I can remember - long straight, one car coming the other way, I'm a decent stopping distance back. There's someone in a quick car behind me. Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me

You appear to be bending the rules of physics. How can the car behind you pull out before you do if you pull out as soon as the other car is past?

I STARTED to move as soon as the other car was level, but due to lots of power he pulled well out and was alongside by the time I had a wheel over the line. His closing speed was quite high.

One incident I can remember - long straight, one car coming the other way, I'm a decent stopping distance back. There's someone in a quick car behind me. Once the car is alongside I signal, and accelerate whilst pulling out. The car behind has accelerated earlier, swings out immediately and by the time I start to move out is alongside me. He's deliberately forcing me to wait.

Very reckless.

So you hesitated pulling out. You had to, otherwise how else can the car behind be alongside, given that he too had to wait for the oncoming car to pass & he has closed the gap between you & is already alongside.

Had this car watched you not take a previous opportunity to pass? Now, when I say opportunity, what I mean is, a space he could have passed in, as opposed to one that you could. If so, then perhaps that driver perceived that you weren't going to pass this time?
Anticipation & preparation. If you can see the opportunity approaching, then it is possible to start accelerating, reducing your "decent stopping distance gap ahead", in the knowledge that you are going to pull out around the vehicle ahead well before you get too close. A safer way to overtake if you are short of oomph.

I STARTED to move as soon as the other car was level, but due to lots of power he pulled well out and was alongside by the time I had a wheel over the line.

Your story appears to be changing...

I'm also still not sure why you didn't take the opportunity to start accelerating at the same point as the car behind you, given you should have been able to see the opportunity earlier than them.

So you hesitated pulling out.

It was clear that I was going to move. I was signalling for a start.

Why are you defending this guy?

[i]Some people seem to think that 1/10 of a second on a 200m straight is enough time to decide I'm a granny though.[/i]

But certain cars give an impression. If its something like a small Kia (insert any Asian car company name) hatch I'll make the assumption that they won't even try to overtake.

This morning I overtook a wagon with a queue of cars behind it. Based on where I caught them (and the fact the wagon would have been doing 45ish) one or two must have been either following for a fair few miles and/or going slow. As we came onto the straight I could see the road was clear so indicated and pulled out.

At the same time a flashed my headlamps, so they all knew what I was doing, or at least it would catch their attention. Because I knew that by the time I passed the lead car I'd be going twice their speed, and didn't want them to just pull out.

Molgrips - I guess I'm the kinda of driver you hate 🙂

Just noticed something else. Even though you can see the opportunity to pass, you did not indicate until the oncoming vehicle was alongside. You indicate to signal intention to manoeuvre, not as you commence the move. Had you indicated sooner the car behind would have been aware of your intentions.

Why are you defending this guy?

Please point out to us where we're doing that?

I'm in agreement with Molgrips here. My personal hate is people overtaking me on a slip-road to join main carriageway, across double lines.

Which is just the same as safely overtaking a line of cars in stages 🙄

Why are you defending this guy?

I don't think any one is defending the guy (I believe the word idiot has already been used). I read it that people are offering advice as to how the overtake could have been completed without the need for a high performance car.

At the same time a flashed my headlamps...

Oh my. This can be taken the wrong way by someone who was considering the overtake and watching you in their mirrors. Lucky they didn't assume you were letting them out!

Some drivers *assume* you're going to attempt an overtake - in the same way people *assume* that 'Granny cars' will never attempt to overtake the tractor in front of them....

I've certainly noticed this, since buying a TT...

people are offering advice as to how the overtake could have been completed without the need for a high performance car.

The overtake would have been completed easily without issue by both of us had he not tried to force his way through. It was very obvious that was going to go. With respect, I believe I did everything right in that particular instance.

Based on where I caught them (and the fact the wagon would have been doing 45ish) one or two must have been either following for a fair few miles and/or going slow.

How?

At the same time a flashed my headlamps, so they all knew what I was doing, or at least it would catch their attention. Because I knew that by the time I passed the lead car I'd be going twice their speed, and didn't want them to just pull out

esp. as this would mean you'd be doing 90.

With respect, I believe I did everything right in that particular instance.

Fair enough.

[url= http://www.iam.org.uk/drivers/motorists-courses/advanced-driving/motorists-skill-for-life ]Have a read - £139 could make a huge difference[/url]. It did with me.

I believe I did everything right in that particular instance.

I'm not even suggesting you didn't - I wasn't there, and your side of the story does suggest the other driver was an idiot - just that you could have done things differently which might have meant you'd have pulled out before the other car was alongside you. It was certainly possible for you to have pulled out before the other car was alongside - to claim otherwise really is bending physics.

[i]molgrips - Member

So you hesitated pulling out.
It was clear that I was going to move. I was signalling for a start.

Why are you defending this guy?[/i]

Well, in Grips defense, if Grips was indicating his intention before either car could move out. Then its a simple case of the other driver ignoring Grips and putting himself first.
But, the road is full, verge to verge with folk like that. Its the way of the world, on the road. I'm sure worse happens on roads elsewhere, Shit happens.

[i]It's a dog eat dog world out there, and the 'snooze you lose' principle works here.[/i]
Thats a very dodgy philosophy to subscribe to when lives could be at risk.

But Molgrips stated he indicated when the oncoming vehicle was alongside. As I've said, indicate to signal your intention to move, not as you move.

The car behind may have been a little hasty, but if it was anticipating an overtake manoeuvre, it is likely that molgrips last minute indication & movement came as something of a shock. Without witnessing the actual event, I'd call it 50/50.

But Molgrips stated he indicated when the oncoming vehicle was alongside. As I've said, indicate to signal your intention to move, not as you move.

(I can't believe I'm defending molgrips here, but in this instance I don't see what he did wrong...)

He presumably didn't move whilst the oncoming vehicle was alongside, so he did indicate first - and at that point the car behind hadn't pulled out so should have been able to clearly see the indicator. I'd suggest it's a really bad idea to indicate before the oncoming driver is alongside as the oncoming driver wouldn't be sure of your intentions - I certainly would indicate earlier.

Ohh! This argument again!!! It's always a good one.

Multi car overtakes? Piece of piss. Bladder past the moveable roadblock, job done, thank you and good night.

Far easier on 2 wheels of course and a common occurrence for any motorcyclist. It's very rare anyone objects, and I don't think I can ever remember anyone I was passing having a problem with it...... Only the odd one coming the other way. It matters not either way. 🙂

STB.

I won't labour the point, its not our place to judge and since the event is past, whats the point.

But here's how I see things. Yeah, I need to get from A to B, sometimes in a timely fashion. [b]But[/b] never, do I ever, want to put another person's life at risk, for being in a hurry.
I've driven a lot of miles over many years, I've seen a lot of stuff on the road.
So, now, when I get in the car, its my responsibility, as the driver of a car, to protect and preserve those who travel with me AND those who travel about me.

As before, does anyone here ever want the life of another person to be put at risk, possibly ended, through their actions behind the wheel ?
I'd hope not, which is why statements such as:

[i]It's a dog eat dog world out there, and the 'snooze you lose' principle works here.[/i]
Are not only worrying, but frankly abhorrent, to me.

As before, does anyone here ever want the life of another person to be put at risk, possibly ended, through their actions behind the wheel ?
I'd hope not, which is why statements such as:

Of course they don't. Still possible to overtake 10 cars at a time though. I'll probably do it on my way home tonight. 🙂

PP.

I see high performance motorcycles as a slightly different beast. They are much quicker to move. Personally, I give them respect and space to get by, the sooner the better, ime. However, I've seen those motorcycles in the hands of loons, who again, risk the safety of others. And this is my point.
It seems to me that too few people really stop to consider how they'd feel if they became responsible for ending another person's life.

Oh, and do me a favour. Ride with your headlamp on, if you must, but keep it to dipped. [b]Please[/b] don't ride about with your headlamp switched to main beam. Its illegal, dangerous and annoying.
🙂

So , The highway code says flash your headlights to make others aware of your presence. Very important if you are barreling up the outside of 3 - 4 cars + bus at 30 mph more than they are. So you have a choice , dont flash in case the other ditherers see it as an invitation to pull out and hope they have done mirror + shoulder check before swinging out without indidcating.
I dont flash , I hold my main beam on for 2 secs or so . A police T5 did this to me coming up to a roundabout near Crawley once. I was doing around 80 , he was doing 100+ . I wasnt expecting anything to up my chuff that quickly , it was late at night as well so not alot of traffic on the road.
I slowed and allowed him a better line through the roundabout and he was off into teh distance with a lovely whiff of hot exhaust gasses. Very safe manoevere at high speed on a public highway , saw him from 200m back.

Moly.-

Everyones got to be somewhere
Some people are late
Some people will take more risks
Some dont even understand the risks
Some will have had training
Some will think they are a better driver than they are
Some will have a faster car than you
Some are empowered by overtaking
Some may know the road very well indeed
Someone else might be paying for the fuel
Some people are just plain rude

Thats life , just roll with it . Not worth getting upset about is it really.

Solo - thanks for apportioning other people's statements to me by putting my name at the top of your post. For what it is worth, go back far enough & you'll see comments from me suggesting why hurry & why get worked up about people overtaking.
At no point have I indicated that it is in any way acceptable to risk anyone's life & we've been round in circles regarding what constitutes safely overtaking.
I will add one for the motorbikers though - when taking right handers, if you're riding on / just inside the white line & leaning over, it means your head is on the wrong side of the road. Had a few near misses (seems at it's worst in the Dales) & just want to point out that bike helmet vs car windscreen / pillar is not going to be pretty.

Far easier on 2 wheels of course

I don't really mind when motorbikes do it, for the most part.

The problem generally I have on the road is that I wish I had huge neon signs that I coud light up in the rear window that said:

"I'm not pushing in, I'm just enjoying myself. Don't take it personally" or,
"I know I won't get there any quicker but I'm just enjoying driving. Don't take it personally" or,
"I'm not cutting in, I'm merging in turn. Don't take it personally" or,
"I know I overtook the three of you but your lack of apparent anticipation and body language led me to believe you're going to stay where you are. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY"

Molgrips, it's not a queue. It's not a difficult point to take on board, but if you managed it, you'd be less angry and a safer driver. The reason it's not a queue is, not everyone wants to overtake. If they don't want to overtake, what are they queuing for? I've followed a row of 4 cars at around 35mph. No one wanted to overtake as demonstrated by them not overtaking. Should I just knock them all off in one go when safe to do so? Or sit behind queuing like you, "waiting my turn", on the off chance that one of them developed some judgement?

There is no queue, only a flow. And there's a code that tells you your responsibilities. It's that simple.

Solo - Member
molgrips - Member

So you hesitated pulling out.
It was clear that I was going to move. I was signalling for a start.

Why are you defending this guy?

Well, in Grips defense, if Grips was indicating his intention before either car could move out. Then its a simple case of the other driver ignoring Grips and putting himself first.
But, the road is full, verge to verge with folk like that. Its the way of the world, on the road. I'm sure worse happens on roads elsewhere, Shit happens.

It's a dog eat dog world out there, and the 'snooze you lose' principle works here.
Thats a very dodgy philosophy to subscribe to when lives could be at risk.

Solo - Please don't quote part of my post to suggest I'm a lunatic. You missed this bit out:

I'm not encouraging bad behaviour or lack of care/respect for others, that causes accidents and nobody has the right to put others at risk.

Cheers

The reason it's not a queue is, not everyone wants to overtake

However plenty of people in the line of cars DO want to overtake. Some arrived before others. Therefore it is a queue. The only issue is that some people in that queue aren't going to overtake. Which is an issue that needs to be worked around.

Or sit behind queuing like you, "waiting my turn", on the off chance that one of them developed some judgement?

You sit behind them until you have seen that they aren't going to overtake, then you can overtake. The problem is that many drivers see a queue, think "sod this" and start fighting their way forward regardless, and passing people who've been waiting for their turn.

I've been in many many queues and a few people go off the front each time there's a strait, so we are all waiting to go. Then someone comes up behind me and immediately starts jumping the queue without having waited to see if the rest of us are preparing to go. In long queues, people start jumping even when they can't see the front of it.

I would go so far as to say that is the norm with long queues.

Yes, in the situation you describe fourbanger, you should make your way forwards. However many many times I see people pushing forwards regardless of what anyone else is doing. They do it because they are impatient and selfish. I do not like people being impatient and selfish.

Ok, it's still not a queue.

Its not a queue, its a line of cars all travelling on the same road.

Yes it is.

If I get there first, I deserve first shout at passing. If I defer, then you may go through. Just like a supermarket.

A queue.

You're not describing queuing at the till, you're describing queuing down the aisle, which no-one does.
Why should anyone wait for you in case you might overtake?

Get over yourself.

If I have to wait for someone else to overtake before I do, then I wait.

It's a much healthier mindset.
🙂

No , It isnt . But sometimes it is.
Very slow moving vehicle .Tractor , Steam engine, cyclist, horse = Queue. Everyone wants to overtake . No one in the line of cars wants to be doing 15mph.

Car towing caravan on an A road ,single carriage way. There might a line of 15 cars behind the caravan. Some of whom (maybe the majority) , who are happy to pootle at 47mph do not want to and have no intention of overtaking that caravan = Not a queue.

Impossible to tell from behind my long bulging bonnet as I charge up from behind which of the 15 cars is happy pootling, or would like to overtake but isnt able to , for whatever reason.

What this thread needs is a dancing zebra. Don't you think?
[img] [/img]

You're not describing queuing at the till, you're describing queuing down the aisle

No, I'm not. The till is the obstruction.

I'm not complaining about being overtaken myself on the open road - that would be like moving around in the aisle.

It's still a queue and that's the end of it.

Gotta say im never in so much of a hurry that i have to overtake, and i like driving fast, but theres a time and a place for that. Having seen some of the mess made in Russia where overtaking seems mandatory whether safe to do so or not and its gone wrong, well like i say im never in that-much of a rush

Jesustitty****ingchrist. Listen Victor Meldrew, you're wrong. End of. Get some more training if you're having trouble with indicating your intent to overtake. Plenty of ways it can be done before you even get to mirror, signal, manoeuvre.