[Closed] Overtaking.

I don't want somebody, who's been considering (do I?/don't I?) a move for the past 30 seconds, dawdling out in front of me, requiring me to slow down on the off-side of the road.
Yeah that's why queue jumping can be risky...

But if the person pulling out late were checking their mirrors before commencement of the overtake manoeuvre (not do I/don't I, check mirrors, have a look up the road again, mental calculation, another few do I/don't I moments & then pull out..note time passed since 1st mirror check), there wouldn't be an issue.
If I make a pass requiring more than one vehicle to be passed, then it factors into that calculation...what if?
The issue is some have different speed/distance/car performance perception than others & make that decision at different rates, meaning car A could already be well on its way through an overtake before car B has made a decision.
If you're plodding, let others go & make it as easy as you can - I find it less stressful & consider it safer than having a car inches from being embedded in my rear bumper as I drive along. If you want to get on, then be decisive.

Interesting to see the assumption by many that anyone overtaking is a rage fuelled lunatic; says a lot more about them than the overtaker.

Nothing wrong with overtaking more than one vehicle at once either.
I've done it before with no drama on fen roads with miles of visibility.

The idea that I must be suffering from uncontrollable fury is pretty amusing as I picture myself pootling along in my little red Micra, complete with flower stickers all over it and with Otis Redding on the stereo (not too loud).
🙂

molgrips - Member
It frequently happens that I see clear road, signal, look in my mirror,

Mirror, signal, manoeuvre old chap. 😉

You do sound very angry, maybe the roads aren't for you?

I'm not angry unless someone pushes in front of me. It'd make me (and most people) angry in the supermarket, why not on the roads?

molgrips - Member

I'm not angry unless someone pushes in front of me. It'd make me (and most people) angry in the supermarket, why not on the roads?

Anything that could cloud your judgement on the roads is bad. Take solace in reacting safely to other people's bad driving, rather than getting wound up.
🙂

I seem to remember a similar thread maybe a year ago then went down the exact same cul de sac.

Can we have the giraffe back?

molgrips - Member

It's a flow of traffic, not a queue. You don't have a spot.

Disagree.

Why would it not be a queue? If we're all waiting to overtake, and have been sat there for 10 mins, why should you get to go first when you've only just arrived?

Molegrips, have you read the highway code regarding, overtaking? I suggest you do and maybe you won't get so frustrated in the future. Here it is below for reference. Nothing about having to wait in a 'check out style queue' as you put it. These are the official rules - not some self made moral guide that you insist on adhering to.

138. Before overtaking you should make sure

• the road is sufficiently clear ahead
• the vehicle behind is not beginning to overtake you
• there is a suitable gap in front of the vehicle you plan to overtake.

139. Overtake only when it is safe to do so. You should

• not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake
use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area and then start to move out
• not assume that you can simply follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking; there may only be enough room for one vehicle move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in
• take extra care at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance
• give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road
• only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
• stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
• give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would a car when overtaking (see Rules 188, 189 and 191.

140. Large vehicles. Overtaking these is more difficult. You should

• drop back to increase your ability to see ahead. Getting too close to large vehicles will obscure your view of the road ahead and there may be another slow moving vehicle in front
• make sure that you have enough room to complete your overtaking manoeuvre before committing yourself. It takes longer to pass a large vehicle. If in doubt do not overtake
• not assume you can follow a vehicle ahead which is overtaking a long vehicle. If a problem develops, they may abort overtaking and pull back in.

141. You MUST NOT overtake

• if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 108)
• if you would have to enter an area designed to divide traffic, if it is surrounded by a solid white line
• the nearest vehicle to a pedestrian crossing, especially when it has stopped to let pedestrians cross
• if you would have to enter a lane reserved for buses, trams or cycles during its hours of operation
• after a 'No Overtaking' sign and until you pass a sign cancelling the restriction.

142. DO NOT overtake if there is any doubt, or where you cannot see far enough ahead to be sure it is safe. For example, when you are approaching

• a corner or bend
• a hump bridge
• the brow of a hill.

143. DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example

• approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road
• where the road narrows
• when approaching a school crossing patrol
• between the kerb and a bus or tram when it is at a stop
• where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works
• when you would force another vehicle to swerve or slow down
• at a level crossing
• when a vehicle is indicating right, even if you believe the signal should have been cancelled. Do not take a risk; wait for the signal to be cancelled.

144. Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

145. Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

In 20 years we will look back in amazement that humans were allowed to control vehicles, hopefully.

not some self made moral guide that you insist on adhering to.

Well there is nothing in the rules about queueing nicely at the checkout either, but it's still considered important.

Thanks for the highway code spam, but it's not really relevant.

I'm with the OP on this one. I have a 1hr 30 minute commute via car. If I do not take opportunities to overtake, briskly pull out at roundabouts and take every opportunity to 'make progress' then my commute can easily become 2hrs+
Yes I could leave earlier, but where do you draw the line? Leave 3 hours for the commute in case you get stuck behind a tractor? No. The journey takes an hour at a weekend, and 1hr 30 mins midweek providing you crack on, within the law that is.
As for making progress, you are actively encouraged when you do your bike test to make progress, get up to the speed limit swiftly and safely, and you will fail if you don't. The reason for this is that on a bike you put yourself at risk by not driving at or close to the limit.

I still maintain that the roads would be a far safer place if everyone had to pass a motorcycle test. You realise very quickly how vulnerable you are and how simple things can put you at risk.

Thanks for the highway code spam, but it's not really relevant.

WTF - are you serious? Perhaps you should educate the 30 million other drivers to your 'alternative highway code' then so that they know what to expect before incurring your road rage out on the road.

For your information, when a duel carridgeway merges into one lane then the highway code says to use both lanes fully then merge in turn at the obstruction. This is to make the traffic flow as smooth as possible.

It doesn't say everyone must queue in the left lane causing obstructions on the slip roads. With your logic I bet you're the kind of driver who thinks it's your moral obligation to sit straddling both lanes to prevent people from sneaking round on the right? If you are then you need to get real - not only are you ignoring the highway code but you're acting like a selfish spoilt child.

I bet you're the kind of driver who

Bet away. You seem like the kind of person to make sweeping assumptions about people you don't know. It's not a good idea. Especially when you are inventing things you think I've done to have extra stuff to moan about.

My complaints are about common decency, and that's not usually covered in the highway code. That's why I'm saying it's a red herring.

Why would it not be a queue? If we're all waiting to overtake

Because you're not.

If it's a queue, why is anybody allowed to overtake? What happened to the right of the person at the front of the queue to get served first?

Because you're not.

I am.

I've said as much repeatedly.

I'm with the OP on this one. I have a 1hr 30 minute commute via car.

There's your problem. Poor life decisions. 😛

The highway code also says that if you are being overtaken, you should slow down if necessary to let the other car complete the manoeuvre safely, and then pull back to allow a 2-second gap between you and the car in front.

I am.

I've said as much repeatedly.

You said "we". I'll bet not everybody in your "queue" is going to.

Though I still don't understand why you're struggling so much to differentiate between the idiots you have a problem with and those people on this thread who will wait for people in front of them to have a go at overtaking first, and will give those in front of them a chance to pull out (but still want to overtake the line of cars, so will overtake using multiple attempts).

grum - Member

I'm with the OP on this one. I have a 1hr 30 minute commute via car.

There's your problem. Poor life decisions.

Best decision I ever made. I've gone from an employee to a company director and share holder within 3 years, because of this move. 😛

I think a big part of the problem here is that everyone (but especially people on STW) thinks they are above average in terms of driving skill/competence. So everyone thinks the way they drive must be safe/correct.

Pretty sure there was some research recently showing many people perceive themselves to be good drivers, but this wasn't backed up by actual driving standards.

Best decision I ever made. I've gone from an employee to a company director and share holder within 3 years, because of this move.

If money is that important I guess. Personally there's no amount you could pay me to spend 3-4 hours a day driving on congested roads.

Pretty sure there was some research recently showing many people perceive themselves to be good drivers, but this wasn't backed up by actual driving standards.

Any statistics for IAM drivers? 🙂

^^ spot on grum!

grum - Member

I think a big part of the problem here is that everyone (but especially people on STW) thinks they are above average in terms of driving skill/competence. So everyone thinks the way they drive must be safe/correct.

Pretty sure there was some research recently showing many people perceive themselves to be good drivers, but this wasn't backed up by actual driving standards.

Best decision I ever made. I've gone from an employee to a company director and share holder within 3 years, because of this move.

If money is that important I guess. Personally there's no amount you could pay me to spend 3-4 hours a day driving on congested roads.

Umm. I don't remember moaning about my commute, which you said was a poor life decision. I used it as an example! And you're assuming that my move was motivated by money! But no probs. I'm happy which is what counts. 🙂

Though I still don't understand why you're struggling so much to differentiate between the idiots you have a problem with and those people on this thread who will wait for people in front of them to have a go at overtaking first

The same reason they are assuming I'm a dangerous dawdler who has no clue.

I still get overtaken when I'm next in line to overtake and clearly moving out to look down the road. I also get overtaken when I'm two or three back, and am intending to overtake.

If you are in favour of queue jumping, do you think I should overtake all the cars in front of me until I am at the front? But what if the cars in front of me also want to overtake? They then should overtake me back?

Do you think that this would be a safe way of dealing with slow traffic? Everyone trying to pass everyone else to get to the front? If your answer is no, which it should be, then it has become a queue hasn't it?

Dunno darcy, I can make some up if you like? 🙂

Umm. I don't remember moaning about my commute, which you said was a poor life decision.

My point is, you were suggesting you have to do what sounds like driving a bit aggressively, because of the length of your commute. I was pointing out that the length of your commute is a choice you've made.

Yes, it is a choice/decsion whatever you want to call it, but it is also a good and positive one. Not a poor one as was suggested, otherwise I'd make the decision/choice to change it! 😛

Thanks for the highway code spam, [u]but it's not really relevant[/u].

No, I can clearly see why the rules and guidelines governing the use of the road for all users wouldn't be relevant to someone as sanctimonious as yourself.

Someone mentioned 30 million drivers. That's an awful lot of cars with which we have to share our crowded roads. It's no wonder the driving gods get a bit wound up...especially with a driver of average skill.

deadlydarcy - Member

Any statistics for IAM drivers?

Advanced drivers are less likely to crash. 🙂

I've read the OP and agree, can't be bothered to read the other 8 pages as I'm guessing they are full of the folk who don't/can't overtake.

And the more power you've got, the more places are safe to overtake. My wife's car has 100bhp and needs long straights and good visability, my car has 250bhp so needs far less.
M/C's can pretty much overtake anywhere, been so quick and skinny.

Anyway its not speed that's the problem, it's crap driving. This morning I did 140 miles, with 120 of them on fast single carriageway A roads mostly running 60-80mph. And the only 'incident' I saw was two cars that had crashed at a local T junction in a 40 limit. One was turning right across traffic and an old gimmer just ran straight into them. Did they see them, were they actually looking? Gawd knows.

sbob - Member

Advanced drivers are less likely to crash.

...but they are also a self-selecting group.

I have an IAM certificate and a lapsed membership.

deadlydarcy - Member

It's no wonder the driving gods get a bit wound up

Who are these "driving gods" that keep getting mentioned?
Is it those that understand their driving can be improved, and seek to improve it?
Or is it those that don't need improvement, who coincidently drive Audis, work in IT and ride Orange 5s?
🙂

I'm talking about being PREVENTED from going when I could have gone, because someone else has stolen my spot.

Stolen? Surely if you are ahead on the road, you see a passing opportunity before the cars behind you...be that a clear straight ahead as you come out of a corner, or after an oncoming vehicle has passed you by. With this being the case, can you blame the person behind for being more pro-active & decisive in their overtake if they are alongside you as you intend to pull out?
If you've reacted as quickly, all I can think is you have an underpowered car & you have struggled to accelerate prior to moving out to pass the vehicle ahead, giving the vehicle behind the impression you're not overtaking & they have taken the opportunity to pass.
If for the sake of a second as they blast by, you are then unable to overtake, it would be questionable if the original overtake manoeuvre was safe.
Seems I may be in trouble with some here, as my car has a "pie-chart" in the front, but I'll make this point again - there are places that my car will safely pass, where I wouldn't even consider it in the wifes car (Seat Leon...not that it is in any way a slouch on the roads). Actual car performance has to be factored in to the overtake, along with speed travelling, distance to pass & overtake distance available, road conditions & weather...all factor in the calculation you make.

I still get overtaken when I'm next in line to overtake and clearly moving out to look down the road. I also get overtaken when I'm two or three back, and am intending to overtake.

Well if you're not dawdling, then I wouldn't be overtaking you in those circumstances, and I doubt most of the people on this thread would either. Is it OK for us to overtake people waiting in a line who aren't showing any signs of intending to overtake, and clearly aren't ever going to, who aren't you?

Though I'm slightly confused as you mention intending to overtake when you're 2 or 3 cars back - don't you wait your turn in the queue behind those in front of you?

If you are in favour of queue jumping, do you think I should overtake all the cars in front of me until I am at the front? But what if the cars in front of me also want to overtake? They then should overtake me back?

Do you think that this would be a safe way of dealing with slow traffic? Everyone trying to pass everyone else to get to the front?

[img] [/img]

I still get overtaken when I'm next in line to overtake and clearly moving out to look down the road. I also get overtaken when I'm two or three back, and am intending to overtake.

Then maybe you should MTFU, hurry up and just get on with it - otherwise don't complain when someone else takes the oppertunity that was staring you clearly in the face for a few seconds. If you're intent on an overtake then clearly you're taking far too long to decide if people further behind you in the 'queue' as you put it are already overtaking before you've had the chance to think about it. The problem it would seem is you not being clear in your communication or slow to make an assessment of the situation, not the other drivers.

A friend of mine would always hesitate at the bar when it came to chatting up the ladies. He would chat to them, buy them drinks but never really make a clear move. Normally some other bloke would steam in there from under his nose, make a move and he went home empty handed again. My mate was always annoyed, but the reality was that he didn't own the girl or the right to make the first move just because he spoke to her first. Same with driving - just being stuck first behind a truck doesn't give you automatic first rights to overtake. That's why it says in the highway code to always check behind you before starting an overtake - just in case someone else is also overtaking. It's not rude - it's expected and part of normal driving.

No, I can clearly see why the rules and guidelines governing the use of the road for all users wouldn't be relevant to someone as sanctimonious as yourself.

Oh for christ's sake.

Some things are not covered in the rules, obviously.

Either deliberately or subconsciously you are interpreting my posts as indicating my stupidity and poor driving skills, because the thread is a conflict situation. Which is why you felt the need to quote the highway code at me. However if you take a step back you should be able to see that you're not really making a useful contribution.

Obviously the highway code is relevant to good driving. This is extremely obvious, so making out that I'm saying it's not relevant at all is just irritating.

What I am saying is that [b]the instructions contained within the highway code, whilst valid, do not extend towards human courtesy and decency, in this case.[/b]

otherwise don't complain when someone else takes the oppertunity that was staring you clearly in the face for a few seconds

Why on earth are you leaping to the defence of a hypothetical person you've never met or even seen?

Molgrips

If I was so sure I was right, despite all the evidence and input here, not least your dismissal of The Highway Code, I would be having a serious look at myself and driving standards.

Any particular reason or training/assessment which you feel entitles you to hold this position?

Or are you just common or garden trolling?

Which is why you felt the need to quote the highway code at me.

I didn't

However if you take a step back you should be able to see that you're not really making a useful contribution.

I can see quite clearly that your attitude as portrayed here has a lot to do with the problem. This is probably more helpful than your attitude itself i.e. your posts

Obviously the highway code is relevant to good driving. This is extremely obvious, so making out that I'm saying it's not relevant at all is just irritating.

But then:

Thanks for the highway code spam, but it's not really relevant.

Make your mind up - you could at least hold a position that's coherent on the one page!

What I am saying is that the instructions contained within the highway code, whilst valid, [b]do not extend towards human courtesy and decency, in this case[/b].

Which aren't really relevant in the context of the OP

HTH

So rebe12, would you say that overtaking is like making love to a beautiful women ?

What I am saying is that the instructions contained within the highway code, whilst valid, do not extend towards human courtesy and decency, in this case.

It would sound as though human courtesy might be to allow people who want to travel faster and might be in a hurry to make progress and do so, not selfishly impede their progress just because you're high and mightily first in the queue hogging the oppertunity by moving out to have a look all the time but never actually overtaking. The solution is simple - if you want to overtake just get on with it and do it. No one is stopping you. Either that or get a faster car so many more oppertunities are possible. Honestly you wouldn't believe the difference in overtaking ability my Porsche 911 has compared to an average repmobile.

hels - Member

So rebe12, would you say that overtaking is like making love to a beautiful women ?

No, both are much fun but I prefer to take my time with a beautiful woman 😉

However if you take a step back you should be able to see that you're not really making a useful contribution.

It's a pity TJ isn't still here as he had the stamina and similar mindset to save everyone the tedium of arguing the same point ad nauseum with you

Molgrips This is something you feel very passionately about quite clearly. I drive 36 miles to work each day, taking in lots of B roads and the Cheddar gorge on the way. Every evening on the way home, I average (at best) 36mph, generally 10-15mph average than on the way. Now, I can and do overtake people. What's not happened (OK, it's happened once in 5 years from a clapped out Nissan Almera) is that someones come from behind and snuck around me and the car in front. I never have to abort my overtaking de to the cars behind me going for it and not waiting 'their turn'
How often does it happen to you to get this wound up?

And your entrenched repetitive dogma is

All I'm trying to do is make a clear point, but I'm being massively misunderstood constantly. I hate that.

It would sound as though human courtesy might be to allow people who want to travel faster and might be in a hurry to make progress and do so,

It cuts both ways. I have said in this thread that I don't mind letting people past when it's warranted. However I don't like being forced to stay back by someone else taking an opportunity that should have been mine.

not selfishly impede their progress just because you're high and mightily first in the queue hogging the oppertunity by moving out to have a look all the time but never actually overtaking.

That's not what I do at all. See previous post.

Thanks for the highway code spam, but it's not really relevant.
Make your mind up - you could at least hold a position that's coherent on the one page!

I despair, I really do. Surely it's really obvious that the words 'to this issue' are implied at the end of 'but it's not really relevant' in my earlier post? And even if it wasn't, I re-stated with the added words.

I suspect I am being deliberately wound up here, there's no way you can actually be that idiotic on a STW thread.

Just a quick question for you, molgrips. When an overtaking opportunity first presents itself either when a car coming the other way goes past, or when you come round a corner onto a straight, who first gets the opportunity to pull out to overtake, the person in front or the person behind?

Aracer

You're missing the point - it's a queue for gawds sake 😉

Molgrips This is something you feel very passionately about quite clearly.

Fairness - yes, I do feel passionately about it.

How often does it happen to you to get this wound up?

It happens on certain roads that are busy, so whenever I end up on those. It's not that often, but when it does happen it's one of the worst examples of downright ****ing rudeness I encounter in my day to day life. It depresses me that people think it's perfectly fine.

I think people want to pretend that I am a dawdling granny who never wants to overtake, so that they can justify a selfish manoeuvre to themselves and not feel guilty.

who first gets the opportunity to pull out to overtake, the person in front or the person behind?

Surely the person in front? If I were the second person, I would wait several seconds for the person in front to look like they were going to move.

there's no way you can actually be that idiotic on a STW thread.

is that a challenge?

Surely the person in front? If I were the second person, I would wait several seconds for the person in front to look like they were going to move.

You're missing the point. Ignore your bugbear about courtesy for a moment. Assume the car behind doesn't care about whether the car in front wants to overtake and is going to pull out at the earliest opportunity. Which car can pull out first?

Well, it does come across that you are a dawdling granny, but there's nothing wrong in that. You bought a Prius, sit there and be smug at 80mpg!
On the other side of it, getting angry at people in a car is the most pointless thing that I do in my day to day life, what does it matter overall? Something that doesn't happen that often gets you so wound up? Let it go!

The one in front. They will have seen the straight first, or the car will have passed them first.

I'm sure you're going to tell me otherwise, so I'm interested to hear your justification for it.

Actually I'm not, I'm dreading it, but you've all wound me up and I can't help myself. I need banning for a day for my own sake.

Well, it does come across that you are a dawdling granny, but there's nothing wrong in that. You bought a Prius, sit there and be smug at 80mpg!

Most of my driving is done in my Passat, 140bhp.

As aracer above, same point made a little earlier...

Surely if you are ahead on the road, you see a passing opportunity before the cars behind you...be that a clear straight ahead as you come out of a corner, or after an oncoming vehicle has passed you by. With this being the case, can you blame the person behind for being more pro-active & decisive in their overtake if they are alongside you as you intend to pull out?
If you've reacted as quickly, all I can think is you have an underpowered car & you have struggled to accelerate prior to moving out to pass the vehicle ahead, giving the vehicle behind the impression you're not overtaking & they have taken the opportunity to pass.
If for the sake of a second as they blast by, you are then unable to overtake, it would be questionable if the original overtake manoeuvre was safe.

No answer from Molgrips on this & concerned regarding Molgrips comments about having to wait when 1st in "queue", yet also overtaking from 3rd or 4th car back...which is contradictory.

My assessment of the road when looking to overtake, if more than one vehicle, includes looking for indicators and/or signs of acceleration, lane change etc
If I perceive you're not going to pass, then, if I feel it safe, I do. I wouldn't be too impressed if you pulled out in front of me as I was overtaking, but again, as previously stated, it is something you factor in & prepare for if overtaking more than one vehicle, so neither would it surprise me or make me feel that I have to run you off the road.
There is definitely no winding up taking place here, just pointing out a reasoned view of what I see taking place on the roads.

Apologies - can see Molgrips has answered this query while I was typing the above.
Several seconds??? Chances are the car behind you looked, decided they could pass if they get on with it, saw no movement ahead, so commenced their overtake...all while you're patiently waiting. If someone overtaking you is so upsetting, although I can't see why, then be more decisive yourself.

The one in front. They will have seen the straight first, or the car will have passed them first.

Right. So if you're driving the car in front, why haven't you already pulled out before the car behind has the opportunity to?

I don't think there's any sort of order when overtaking. I think you make your own decision, check your mirrors and pull out to overtake. If someone has already commenced the overtake behind you, then it's your own fault for being too slow/hesitant, you simply wait for them to pass and have another go.
If you sit and wait for people to overtake in turn, then you could be there for ever waitng for people to overtake who have no intention of doing so.

I think the only exception to this is when there's a queue of traffic behind a VERY slow moving vehicle in a 50/60 mph zone (tractor/roller etc), where everyone is going to overtake. It's realistic to assume that nobody in a car is going to be content doing 15/20mph so hence all will overtake. Steaming down the outsie is likely to cause an accident.

Let it go!

When it happens, I get pissed off that I'm delayed by someone else's rudeness (which is worse than being delayed by insecurity).

This thread is really winding me up, because it's full of people who think it's perfectly ok to act like arseholes.

With this being the case, can you blame the person behind for being more pro-active & decisive in their overtake if they are alongside you as you intend to pull out?

Yes! Because they need to wait more than 0 seconds to decide I'm not going to go.

If someone has already commenced the overtake behind you, then it's your own fault for being too slow/hesitant

What makes you so sure the person behind me isn't a lunatic?

People are always complaining about nutters on the road, and yet suddenly on this particular thread, everyone's a great driver!

It's absoultely ****ed up.

I think people want to pretend that I am a dawdling granny who never wants to overtake, so that they can justify a selfish manoeuvre to themselves and not feel guilty.

Unless they are a mind reader it would appear that you may drive like one, which is why it happens so frequently. Have you considered that as a possibility?

You haven't said what training you have had - might be something to consider?

Edit - I don't recall anyone saying they are great drivers, they are simply saying you are wrong!

I think the only exception to this is when there's a queue of traffic behind a VERY slow moving vehicle in a 50/60 mph zone (tractor/roller etc), where everyone is going to overtake. It's realistic to assume that nobody in a car is going to be content doing 15/20mph so hence all will overtake. Steaming down the outsie is likely to cause an accident.

I agree. Though I have been stuck in a "queue" behind a tractor where the car immediately behind the tractor is sitting right up it's arse, can't see if it's safe to overtake and hence doesn't despite plenty of space which 4 or 5 cars could have got past in, leaving the whole of the rest of the "queue" also sitting there waiting.

Maybe it was molly? (joke!!!)

I suspect I am being deliberately wound up here,

Aracer as the car goes past at 60 mph or gives you about 0.1 second advantage - that does not mean the one behind cannot pull out aggressively and quickly to make it dangerous for you to do so.
Sure you could pull out block them [perhaps even cause them to brake] and take up a racing line but it might not be the safest options to do this.

Perhaps they have taken a run at you and are going faster- ever seen the rear car overtake on a rolling start from the safety car - surely that is impossible given they start second.

Obviously the car in front gets first chance but i am pretty sure I can drive in manner to make it unsafe for you to do this when I am behind you or perhaps even overtake you if my car is faster or I drive like a complete tool

So in short the temporal laws answer your question but it does not indicate whether it is always safe to do this.

Right. So if you're driving the car in front, why haven't you already pulled out before the car behind has the opportunity to?

Because I'm busy signalling and checking my mirrors, and they've already floored it and swung out. Their speed has forced me to pull back in.

Let's do another situation. There's a small gap in oncoming traffic, then another slightly larger one. The small gap is not enough for me to pass, but Speedy M3 uses it to pass me. Then in the next gap, he can sail by, but there's not enough space for both of us. But I could have gone had he not been in front of me. The next gap after that doesn't come up for 5 miles.

How can that be fair?

life isn't about fairness, if someone makes a decision quicker than you then they get the benefits if that decision was a wise one.

if you're in a supermarket queue at the tobacco counter bit with 2 tills and you can't decide whether to buy a lottery ticket or not, you stand there trying to decide and the guy behind you goes to the second till, buys a ticket and wins... thats just him getting the benefit of making a good decision faster than you.

Because I'm busy signalling and checking my mirrors, and they've already floored it and swung out. Their speed has forced me to pull back in.

You didn't check your mirrors and signal when the car was alongside you? How long does it take you to signal? Personally in such a situation I'd already be across the white line before the car coming the other way had cleared the car behind me. Does that make me a dangerous driver, or does it mean I'm making my overtake sooner so that I can pull back in sooner and decrease the chance of coming into conflict with something I can't yet see?

it makes you a winner aracer, a winner

Again, see this too, where people will sit & wait indefinitely behind even the slowest moving vehicles. Sometimes it is necessary to pull out & pass those dithering too. Extra caution required & wouldn't "steam" past.

I'm sure we've all seen the middle lane motorway drivers...80-90mph when lane is clear, lorry pulls out, outside lane clear, so they stand on the brakes & remain in middle lane at 56ish mph, speeding up when whatever "obstruction" blocked their "progress" clears their path. Same thing with some drivers & tractors.

I suspect I am being deliberately wound up here, there's no way you can actually be that idiotic on a STW thread.

No, but clearly you can be, as you keep demonstrating quite admirably

Because I'm busy signalling and checking my mirrors, and they've already floored it and swung out. Their speed has forced me to pull back in.

Back to the OP...i too have had the flashing of the headlights in angry response to an overtake, its pathetic.

I drive an 8 year old Hyundai Getz with a 1.3 engine so i have to plan any overtakes well in advance....this car does not allow the quick and effortless blast past that others enjoy!

Th scene is typically a NSL road with very little traffic and a car in front doing 40-45mph....i check ahead is clear (and it does need to be clear for a good distance to allow the Getz to get up to speed!)....i pull out, around and back in and settle to a 60mph cruise....look back in my mirrors to see an irate driver flashing headlights and making w@nker signs....why?!

My theory is that these are the same road captains who try to enforce the motorway speed limit by driving at 70mph in the overtaking lanes....i'm wise to their games now anyway, i tend to stick to lane one where apart from the odd lorry i can usually maintain a better average speed than i can in lanes 2 and 3.

Try it, the look on their faces when you make unimpeded progress in lane one is priceless....its not undertaking either, the highway code allows for this if lane one is moving faster than the overtaking lanes....its only overtaking if you come up behind somebody in lane 2 and then switch to lane 1 to pass them....simply staying in lane 1 at 70mph and passing the cretins tripping over each other in lanes 2 and 3 is fine.

I thought that the rules of common courtesy in a slow-moving vehicle situation were that everybody should just wait and give the person driving the BMW precedence to do whatever they want to do?

I've just bought a Bimmer on that very basis - so I'm going to be mightily upset if this is not, in fact, the case. 😀

as the car goes past at 60 mph or gives you about 0.1 second advantage - that does not mean the one behind cannot pull out aggressively and quickly to make it dangerous for you to do so.

It does if you've already pulled out before it's physically possible for them to do so - which as mentioned above is what I'd do in such circumstances. BTW combined speed of 120mph (more than it will be if you're stuck behind something slow) is 5.3m in 0.1s - you get far more advantage than that unless the car behind is literally glued to your bumper. Given a car length gap between you and the car behind (which is still far less than the gap should be and will look in the mirror like they're on your bumper) and a more realistic closing speed of 100mph you've got at least 0.25s advantage. Certainly plenty enough to have pulled out before the car behind does given we're not talking about reacting here, we're talking about anticipating.

Perhaps they have taken a run at you and are going faster- ever seen the rear car overtake on a rolling start from the safety car

No, actually I haven't - certainly not in a pure drag race. Whenever I've watched F1 the car immediately behind the safety car also takes a run when the safety car pulls off, which is exactly what I'd do if I was wanting to overtake even if I had a car behind me. So I don't see how the car behind gets an advantage.

<waits for Junky to tell me I'm not listening because I don't agree that the advantage is only 0.1s>

I drive an 8 year old Hyundai Getz with a 1.3 engine so i have to plan any overtakes well in advance....this car does not allow the quick and effortless blast past that others enjoy!

In one of those things, about a weeks worth of planning 🙂

MM, that's what your hazard lights are for 😉

also, fun fact for you... you can turn on the left hand/right hand hazard lights independently by flicking the toggly thing next to your steering wheel either up or down. other cars use them to show which direction their intending on travelling to others.

😆

Not seeing Molgrips argument...so the M3 driver could overtake & you couldn't...learn to live with it.
My overtaking depends on the car I'm in & I won't begrudge others if they're able to overtake on a section I can't.
If I'm in the mood to plod along, then I make an effort to move out of the way of those wishing to go faster. If I too want to overtake, then I need to be decisive...chances are M3 driver behind may still be able to accelerate from his position behind me & still pass me & vehicle I was passing if I get on with it...still comes down to being prepared to overtake & being decisive as that opportunity becomes available.

MM, that's what your hazard lights are for

also, fun fact for you... you can turn on the left hand/right hand hazard lights independently by flicking the toggly thing next to your steering wheel either up or down. other cars use them to show which direction their intending on travelling to others.

😆

MM, that's what your hazard lights are for
also, fun fact for you... you can turn on the left hand/right hand hazard lights independently by flicking the toggly thing next to your steering wheel either up or down. other cars use them to show which direction their intending on travelling to others.

Off to check my car to see if all BMW's have this feature 😉

Again, see this too, where people will sit & wait indefinitely behind even the slowest moving vehicles. Sometimes it is necessary to pull out & pass those dithering too. Extra caution required & wouldn't "steam" past.

Yes I agree, it is rare though. Generally the ditherers seem to be the most unpredictable drivers in my experience, so extra caution is prudent, as you say.

So what you are actually saying is that the driver behind has anticipated the opportunity and while fully aware of his surroundings has taken the opportunity quicker than you because you have been too busy faffing about checking things which you should have already done!

No, what I'm actually saying is what I'm actually saying (that's why I'm typing it). That the person behind me has, by being overly aggressive, made themselves too close to me and is coming too fast for me to be able to justify taking the risk and pulling out really close to a speeding car.

Not seeing Molgrips argument...so the M3 driver could overtake & you couldn't...learn to live with it.

FFS. NO!

How can I make this any ****ing clearer?

He took a small chance to overtake ME, thereby putting himself into a situation where he could take the next spot that I could have taken.

On the roads, the people with fast cars or the risk takers are forcing other people out of the way. This is not justifiable anywhere else in life, so why the **** is it justifiable on the roads?

chances are M3 driver behind may still be able to accelerate from his position behind me & still pass me & vehicle I was passing if I get on with it

I've no problem with being double passed after I've passed the lorry.

The problem is people taking MY chances away from me by being rude and/or dangerous. Can you not see that is an issue? If you are denying it happens like that, then please say so.

My assessment of the road when looking to overtake, if more than one vehicle, includes looking for indicators and/or signs of acceleration, lane change etc
If I perceive you're not going to pass, then, if I feel it safe, I do. I wouldn't be too impressed if you pulled out in front of me as I was overtaking, but again, as previously stated, it is something you factor in & prepare for if overtaking more than one vehicle, so neither would it surprise me or make me feel that I have to run you off the road.
There is definitely no winding up taking place here, just pointing out a reasoned view of what I see taking place on the roads.

Perhaps they have taken a run at you and are going faster- ever seen the rear car overtake on a rolling start from the safety car

No, actually I haven't - certainly not in a pure drag race. Whenever I've watched F1 the car immediately behind the safety car also takes a run when the safety car pulls off, which is exactly what I'd do if I was wanting to overtake even if I had a car behind me. So I don't see how the car behind gets an advantage.

If the car is already moving faster and accellerating, then it's already got the advantage over a car moving around twenty mph slower, and having to move out then accellerate.

Not quite sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, but there's no advantage if the car in front is also accelerating (just as the car immediately behind the safety car does in F1). Don't really see why the car in front doesn't have the same opportunity as the one behind to take a run.

molgrips; you need to calm the **** down my friend! 🙂

If someone else's overtake prevents you from overtaking, so be it.
Wait for the next opportunity.
If their driving is inconsiderate or dangerous then they have done you a favour; the safest place for a shit driver is in front of you.
🙂

If you are denying it happens like that, then please say so.

In 18 years of driving at around 20k miles per year I can only remember one occasion where what you have described has happened - one occasion!

This was between Shrewsbury and Chester on the A41 and the driver was driving like an idiot overtaking a line of traffic by darting in and out where it really wasn't safe to do so because of junctions, traffic conditions an upcoming blind bends. Other traffic wasn't waiting to overtake though so slightly different to your situation.

I don't know where you drive and maybe you are just very unlucky but that's not my experience of the UK roads.

Please don't ever go to Italy and get in a car or you'll be in for a heart attack!

That the person behind me has, by being overly aggressive, made themselves too close to me and is coming too fast for me to be able to justify taking the risk and pulling out really close to a speeding car.

So that makes every driver who chooses to overtake by using more than one gap to get past a "queue" an aggressive idiot? Even if they're not overly aggressive, don't come up fast behind the car in front and get too close so not giving them a chance to pull out first?

Can I ask another quick question? Given recent headlines, do you assume that the father in every family living on benefits is only one step away from killing his children in a fire?

Sorry, but Countzero is using my words out of context by implying I'm racing up behind a line of cars, whereas I was explaining my situation sitting in said line of cars & viewing what is happening ahead.
This goes back to preparation - you may anticipate an overtaking opportunity & drivers of low powered cars will be well familiar with the concept of opening a gap just to accelerate back into ready to hit the beginning point of a potential overtake carrying a little extra speed & with the car now accelerating. Problem is, if the overtake isn't possible, you have to brake, destroying momentum. For the driver with a bit more oomph under the bonnet, they can hold station with sensible gap, position car for best & earliest opportunity to view road ahead & then accelerate as & when the way is clear. If the car ahead is braking as I see clear road, am I going to wait for it to build speed again, or just slot by like it wasn't there? That car may have been holding station too, but simply not have the acceleration to make a safe pass. Am I so wrong if I can pass safely in that space?
As for Molgrips...so a car passed you & other vehicles in a place you couldn't overtake & then passed a lorry in a place you could, had you been a little closer (the length of the M3 & the gap you left to the M3). Big deal...just learn to live with it & don't get so worked up. From your comments you seem to be less decisive than some (& being more decisive does not have to read "raging lunatic"). Not a bad thing in any way & not judging you, just what I see from the comments.