[Closed] Overtaking.

Just been out on the motorbike and I can confirm that the vast majority of BMW drivers dont like being overtaken. One decided to try and close the nice sized gap between him and the car in front that I had planned to land in (doesnt this take us nicely back to page 1 so you can all start again?). Its also clear that the vast majority of drivers dont think I should be allowed to ride on chevrons.

Its also clear that the vast majority of drivers don't think I should be allowed to ride on chevrons.

There is nothing wrong with this move if the chevrons are bounded by a broken line. 8)

There needs to be better driver education in how to drive a car, not just how to pass the test, maybe even another driving test after 10 years or so.

There is nothing wrong with this move if the chevrons are bounded by a broken line

AFAIK without checking you SHOULD not enter the chevrons even if the line is unbroken.

There is nothing wrong with this move if the chevrons are bounded by a broken line
AFAIK without checking you SHOULD not enter the chevrons even if the line is unbroken.

I've been into this very question in quite some detail some years ago, and unless its changed (which it might well have done) the wording was something along the lines of "don't enter a chevron area with broken white lines unless necessary*" and the general train of thought was that it was necessary to enter them to overtake so that's a good enough reason.

FWIW I spend quite a lot of my new commute along the A30 overtaking lines of cars in a chevron area. It's fine, if a bit bouncy in places.

*Whereas with solid white lines its "except in emergencies"

Yep. I'm correct. Fill yer boots!

[i]130
Areas of white diagonal stripes or chevrons painted on the road. These are to separate traffic lanes or to protect traffic turning right.

If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so.
If the area is marked with chevrons and bordered by solid white lines you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency.
Laws MT(E&W)R regs 5, 9, 10 & 16, MT(S)R regs 4, 8, 9 & 14, RTA sect 36 & TSRGD 10(1)
[/i]

[img] [/img]

Planning an overtake will usually take a good few seconds whilst you weigh up the hazards......... AND ........I strongly disagree however with anyone that bases that decision on the belief that they are a better driver than anyone else

if it takes you that long to weigh up hazards that should have been registered in an instant in conjunction with your ongoing awareness of road and traffic, then you probably should just continue to queue politely!

Planning an overtake will usually take a good few seconds whilst you weigh up the hazards

Not a problem if you do it right, as most of that planning will be done before the overtaking opportunity arrives. (See my previous posts earlier in this thread). It quite easy when you know how and get some practice, but, I admit, a shed load simpler when you've got some proper power under your right [s]foot[/s] hand. 🙂

It's a shame, no.. a problem, that so much sexual insecurity has to be dealt with behind the steering wheel..

It's the main reason that I won't ride a bike on the road

It's the main reason that I won'r ride a bike on the road

Todger keeps banging on the top tube?

you know it!

it's almost a physical handicap

According to the police high speed pursuit rider who did my advanced test you can enter chevrons when necessary and its necessary whenever you want. I tend to not use them for higher speed overtakes just for filtering slower stuff.

IanW - Member

Does anyone have an official reference to this "making good progress" requirement to drive at the speed limit.

New to me and would be dangerous on many NSL roads.

Is it actually just a bad interpretation of the driving test tick box for hesitancy and progress?

Make safe progress is probably a better phrase, nobody is suggesting to drive at a speed that is unsafe, but on test if it is safe to drive at the speed limit, you drive at the speed limit.

The DSA's national standard for driving cars, which sets out what is needed to be a safe and responsible driver, states that you must be able to make progress in the traffic stream and overtake with consideration for other road users.

It's certainly how I was taught and how I was expected to drive on test.
Driving below the speed limit unnecessarily is also cited by many driving tuition websites as being a top ten reason for failing.

If that's new to you then maybe it's time for a refresher; have a look and see if there is an IAM group near you. Initial consultations are normally free, and overall costs are very low. 🙂

freddyg - Member

There is nothing wrong with this move if the chevrons are bounded by a broken line.

Except that chevroned areas of road are often full of debris. 💡

I always think of [url=

video[/url] of a policeman suffering a high speed blowout after driving over chevrons, and wonder if there is a connection.

Those where solid boardered ones though to be fair. Although I did clock a sand bag in a chevroned part of the A4 near Thatcham today, wouldnt want to hit that!

I think I've worked it out folks. Apologies for taking this from several pages back molgrips, but I think it's one of your clearest explanations:

Let's say I'm 2nd in the queue. 1st place is looking to overtake but can't yet, because he's driving a normal car and the straights are too small.

Speedy man comes from behind in his fast car, passes me in a small space and waits behind 1st. The next gap comes, there's space for only two cars, they both go. I'm left behind, when I [b]should[/b] have been through. That's the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.

Can you spot where your fallacy is? I've tried to help...

I suspect I also need to provide you with some alternative scenarios - apologies this is going to get a bit long, but a fair amount of detail is needed for each one:

1) You're 2nd in a "queue". You get to a straight where there's space for 2 cars to go, but there's something coming the other way. You're stuck behind the slow vehicle when you should have been past. Is it fair that the vehicle coming the other way has forced you to wait behind?

2) You're immediately behind a slow car. There is a short straight on which you won't overtake as your car is too slow. Somebody behind in a faster car and with good anticipation manages to get past both of you and drives into the distance. The slow car you're behind turns off at the next turning. You catch up with the faster car who's just overtaken you who is now 2nd in a "queue" behind another slow vehicle. The next gap comes, there's space for only two cars, they both go. You're left behind, when you should have been through. Is it fair that the faster car has forced you to wait behind?

3) You're 2nd in a "queue". You get to a straight where there's space for 2 cars to go, but there's something coming the other way. The car coming the other way has just used the previous two short straights to overtake a "queue" using two separate passes - if it hadn't it would have been several hundred metres back and wouldn't have got in your way. You're stuck behind the slow vehicle when you should have been past. Is it fair that the vehicle coming the other way has forced you to wait behind?

Just to save you the trouble, here's your answer sheet, just copy and paste and delete as appropriate

Is it fair that the other vehicle has forced you to wait behind?
1) yes no
2) yes no
3) yes no

1. No
2. No
3. No

ITS NOT FAIR
[img] [/img]

Molgrips, what do you think you're doing wrong in your driving that leads people to not spot that you want to overtake? This is the crux of it. If you've got an issue with other people on the road, what can you do to resolve it. There will be something you can do. Have a think.

What a bizarre thread! Petrolheads on a bike forum?
Chill people. Live and let live. Share the trails, the roads etc. Take some time to smell the daisies and you'll be the happier for it.

1) No because the other car has no choice but to come the other way. Speedy man DOES have a choice.

2) No issues, because the upcoming scenario was not forseen.

3) No, again it's unforseen.

The issue I have is that speedy man comes up to a queue, and thinks 'I MUST PASS EVERYONE ASAP' and floors it. In doing so, he causes me more delay than otherwise. He ought to realise that a bit of courtesy helps everyone feel better.

If speedyman acted like that outside of his car, it'd be universally condemned. I can run pretty quickly, I could easily sprint past most people approaching (but not yet in) a supermarket queue. But I don't, cos it's damn rude. I was taught that as a kid.

Molgrips, what do you think you're doing wrong in your driving that leads people to not spot that you want to overtake?

What makes you think that I'm doing something wrong? Why can speedyman not just be an arsehole? Are there no arseholes on the road?

Wow, this is 22 pages long, why do people care this much?

I care when people get the wrong idea about what I'm trying to say. I dunno why I care, it's a character flaw.

Please could the forum have a 'shaking my head at the lengths folk go to argue about the most inane subjects' emoticon?

740 posts about overtaking? So you can be quicker to the next obstacle? So you get to your destination oooooh, at least a minute or so quicker?

The only positive thing to come out of this whole sorry display of Sad Dadness is the ability to do this; [b]é[/b].

Please give it a rest now.

What makes you think that I'm doing something wrong? Why can speedyman not just be an arsehole? Are there no arseholes on the road?

Of course there are aresholes, but they can be dealt with safely and legally. And by dealt with I mean defused. And by defused I mean manipulated through your actions so as to be no threat to your safety and have no impact on your progress.
Learn to take responsibility. Learn to take control.

Clanton, we had dancing zebras too. It hasn't been all bad.

Anything positive to add Crikey?

Anything positive to add Crikey?

I love and respect you, but don't always agree with you. 😉

And by defused I mean manipulated through your actions so as to be no threat to your safety and have no impact on your progress.

Now this is interesting. I would not and do not manipulate other drivers. I do not do anything about mr speedyman arsehole, even though he pisses me off. It needs to be risen above not dealt with imo.

What are you talking about exactly?

I love and respect you, but don't always agree with you.

1) No because the other car has no choice but to come the other way. Speedy man DOES have a choice.

2) No issues, because the upcoming scenario was not forseen.

3) No, again it's unforseen.

Ah - OK. But in your scenario the fast driver who overtook you didn't foresee that it would result in you not getting past, neither was it possible to foresee that you actually were likely to make an attempt, hence according to your criteria that's OK.

The question is, what is the moral difference between the driver in scenario 3 and the driver in your scenario? They've both done exactly the same thing.

The other question is what the moral difference is between the driver in scenario 2 and in your scenario, when the initial situation and the outcome is exactly the same?

Now this is interesting. I would not and do not manipulate other drivers. I do not do anything about mr speedyman arsehole, even though he pisses me off. It needs to be risen above not dealt with imo.
What are you talking about exactly?

You manipulate and are manipulated by other drivers every time you get in a car. Other drivers actions cause you to react. Your actions cause other drivers to react. I can't figure out where you're going wrong if you're allowing other drivers to manipulate your thoughts and actions in a negative way.
In other words, take responsibility for every situation you encounter in the car.

Thing is Mr Speedy Man is actually performing a public service. By driving fast he is spending less tim occupying road space. Thereby freeing up space for everyone else.

He deserves a Car Tax rebate

But in your scenario the fast driver who overtook you didn't foresee that it would result in you not getting past

He should assume that I am interested in passing until he sees evidence to the contrary.

Before you do something that might disadvantage someone else, you should take time to determine if it will or not. As we do in real life: "Are you in the queue? Do you mind if I go here?" etc etc.

It's about the intention of the driver and his attitude towards me. This is again the same as in real life. If someone accidentally bumps into me, that's ok - you didn't mean it. If someone is running through the supermarket, and bumps me out of the way, then that's NOT ok, despite the outcome being the same.

He should assume that I am interested in passing until he sees evidence to the contrary.

It appears he did - you didn't attempt to overtake in a gap which was an overtaking spot as far as he was concerned. We've also discussed [s]ad nauseum[/s] at length drivers who look like they're interested in overtaking, but won't ever actually attempt a pass. Maybe you should get yourself one of those digital displays to put in your rear window with "intending to overtake" programmed in to make it more obvious.

It's about the intention of the driver and his attitude towards me. This is again the same as in real life. If someone accidentally bumps into me, that's ok - you didn't mean it.

I'm sure the driver in your scenario wasn't intentionally stopping you from overtaking.

You also don't appear to have addressed the difference between your scenario and my scenario 3, in which the driver stopping you from overtaking has done exactly the same thing.

He should assume that I am interested in passing until he sees evidence to the contrary.

I've just caught up with this thread. TBH, it should have closed at PeterPoddy's post on page 17, which is the correct answer. But anyway.

This has nothing to do with my overtaking ability,

I respectfully disagree, I believe that that's exactly what this is to do with.

Not true at all, at least not where I drive. Maybe 80% of people in my experience will be wanting to pass a 40mph car or lorry.

The problem there is, they'll sit there, "wanting" to overtake, until the heat death of the universe.

I very rarely put myself on the wrong side of the road behind another car. Not enough visibility.

Try dropping back a bit more from the vehicle in front. This will stop being an issue.

Yeah, often there's five or six lorries or caravans ahead and the rest of us have realised that it's not worth bothering as the motorway's coming up soon anyway.

So... you've admitted you don't want to overtake, and yet you're perturbed when other people pass you? How's that work? Moreover, if I'm behind you, how do I tell the difference?

But anyway. 22 pages in, and no-one's addressed the real issue on this thread, which is:

A "queue" is a line of people waiting their turn for something.

A "que" is a confused waiter from Barcelona.

No, is a hamster.

I care when people get the wrong idea about what I'm trying to say. I dunno why I care, it's a character flaw.

Well the first step is to admit you have a problem.

At this point you can either admit you're TJ and get banned again, or just carry on and get banned anyway.

It appears he did - you didn't attempt to overtake in a gap which was an overtaking spot as far as he was concerned.

I'm sure he knows he has a fast car, he should be aware that other people don't.

Your scenario 3 is just stupid. He's got no idea what's coming the other way and when. Pointless. My speedyman is right there behind me, he can choose to overtake or not.

You're really trying to make up justification for this guy. If he was really considerate to other motorists, he wouldn't be queue jumping. Fact is, he's impatient, and he thinks normal polite rules don't apply. Just like many of you apparently. In my scenario, he should know that there's a pretty good chance he's inconveniencing me. And yet, he still does it, cos he doesn't give a shit.

You've got to take responsibility. Reading some of your other threads, you'd do well to apply it to all aspects of your life.

You have absolutely no idea.

Pay it forward when it hits you.

Is this a roundabout way of telling me not to be a nice guy?

He should assume that I am interested in passing until he sees evidence to the contrary.

I'd assume that. But after a couple of missed opportunities I'd revise that to assume that you may or may not intend to pass but are never likely to actually do so.

Back to the supermarket tills. If you're hovering around a till but not actually joining it, I'd hang back to give you a chance to make a decision. After a little while I'd conclude that you're not going to bother and start loading up the checkout.

(Well, in practice I'd probably ask you if you were in the queue, but in a line of traffic we unfortunately don't have that luxury so I'd have to apply a best guess)

you didn't attempt to overtake in a gap which was an overtaking spot as far as he was concerned.
...
I'm sure he knows he has a fast car,

Not that I agree with your logical progression there, but assuming it to be correct for the sake of this point, if there's a passing opportunity which someone in a 'fast' can utilise but you in your 'regular' car cannot, where's the foul in him taking it? Chances are, by the next pseudo-opportunity, he'll be past again and away. Is it fair that he should be have to wait for you?

If you're on the Tube escalators, is it fair to stand on the left blocking faster pedestrians because it's your 'turn' to disembark next?

But after a couple of missed opportunities I'd revise that to assume that you may or may not intend to pass but are never likely to actually do so.

That's fine. But these guys do not wait. They come through immediately. People commonly arrive at the back of a long queue and start jumping it. Not just one person either - I've often looked in my mirrors every small straight and seen two or three cars doing it. Nothing I can do about it when I'm four or five cars back except give them enough space and be prepared to avoid the debris.

Cougar, the scenario I'm talking about in the supermarket would be if I'm walking directly towards the checkout, and you decide to run.

where's the foul in him taking it?

I've said this about 20 times now. Because him being in front of me then stands a fair chance of scuppering me next time.

That's fine. But these guys do not wait. They come through immediately. People commonly arrive at the back of a long queue and start jumping it. Not just one person either - I've often looked in my mirrors every small straight and seen two or three cars doing it. Nothing I can do about it when I'm four or five cars back except give them enough space and be prepared to avoid the debris.

Fair comment. And the latter half of your comment I've addressed earlier.

Cougar, the scenario I'm talking about in the supermarket would be if I'm walking directly towards the checkout, and you decide to run.

Why don't you run too?

I was wondering this a moment ago but in the interest of stretching a poor analogy still further, how about if I naturally walk more quickly than you do?

Yee-ha!

[img] [/img]

Just to go back to the supermarket analogy: if you are walking down the aisle towards the checkout end of the shop. Are you saying you wouldn't walk past someone who was walking in the same direction but dawdling and might be going to pick up something at that end of the aisle, just in case they were going to the checkout? How can you tell they ate going to the queue? Bizarre!

This thread may well have the highest fail:post ratio evar. I figured that 22 pages later things would've moved on, how wrong I was...

I've said this about 20 times now. Because him being in front of me then stands a fair chance of scuppering me next time.

Except that's not true, because if he's the sort of person who is driving [assertively | recklessly] like that, when your "next time" comes around he'll be either progressing further up the line or long gone. Are you saying that in your experience people muscle halfway up a line of traffic and then start just ignoring passing places?

I was going to post on this thread, but then I decided not to, as we are collectively disappearing up our own arse here. However, having gone to the bother of typing that I will add my point of view.

I like driving fast.
I don't drive as fast as I used to when I was 20.
Sometimes I **** up when I'm driving.
When that happens I wonder if I'm actually a good driver. And beat myself up over it.
Everyone ****s up sometimes when they're driving.
As regards overtaking, the roads are too full of traffic coming the other way most of the time. If I had a Porsche....... but I don't.

I agree in principal with the OP though.

Last time it snowed properly around here (2 years ago) there was a BMW doing 10mph up the road from my house. I overtook at 25, cue lots of horn blowing and lights flashing. WTF?
There are some bad/crap/ overly aggressive drivers out there.

stuff

Except that's not true

So what you're saying is, I'm imagining it all?

Your scenario 3 is just stupid. He's got no idea what's coming the other way and when.

By the time he meets something coming the other way, he's already done [b]exactly[/b] the same as the driver in your scenario. Neither driver is intentionally stopping you from overtaking. Neither driver knows that their actions will stop you from overtaking. They've done exactly the same thing, their knowledge is exactly the same, their intentions towards you are exactly the same, the effect they have on you is exactly the same. Both of them prevent you overtaking when you [b]should[/b] have been through. I don't see why the actions of one of them is SO UNFAIR and the other is just fine.

If he was really considerate to other motorists, he wouldn't be queue jumping

Do not try and bend the [s]spoon[/s] queue. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.

Fact is, he's impatient

Because he wants to overtake the slow moving vehicle at the front of the queue? So you're not impatient?

Fact is, he's impatient

But so are you, because you also want to overtake the lorry rather than patiently wait behind it.

In fact, I think you should wait behind, because he may want to arrive at his destination first, as is his right.

And even if you can't be sure he is going to the same place you are, you should still wait behind him [i]just in case[/i] he is, because it wouldn't be fair to arrive before him when it's his turn to get there first.

So what you're saying is, I'm imagining it all?

Well, if you read the rest of my post beyond that sentence, I did try and explain what I was saying.

To wit, they're not "scuppering you next time" unless you're seriously telling me that people routinely blast past you aggressively in slow-moving traffic and then proceed to stay in front of you impeding your progress when subsequent passing opportunities present themselves. And if that is what is happening, then frankly I'm at a loss as to why that would be. I'd expect people who are in a hurry would tend to stay in a hurry, and vice versa.

Going back to the "running to the till" analogy you posited earlier; when someone runs to the till in front of you, are they then more likely to fanny about for ages, or rush through the till and run off?

Are we still going?

OK

In the situation where I am second, then I am not doing anything. Unless the car in front is very obviously not trying to overtake, and is 20m or mor eback at all times.

WTF has 20m got to do,with it? Just take them both at once if there's no gap. Sod all this hanging around mullarky. 🙂

Pointless arguing, ban everyone, especially that Cougar fella. Ban him twice and then ban him again.

I've lost all will to live.

I've lost all will to live.

I'm assuming that all but 2 participants in this thread are doing so with a wide grin on their faces. Perhaps that is a bit naive of me.

🙂

I'm assuming that all but 2 participants in this thread are doing so with a wide grin on their faces.

2 ? not just 1 ?

No, two. Cougar is a joyless moderator now remember.

*waves at our noble sheriff*

[img] [/img]

But the whole point of this thread is flawed because a line of flowing traffic is not a queue is it? A queue is defined as a line of people waiting - most usually for the same thing.

A line of traffic behind say a slow moving truck will have all sort of intensions. Some are driving long distance, some just to the shops, some want to overtake, some are happy to sit there, some are a big group of friends split between two cars wanting to stay close to each other, some will be turning off at the next junction, some at the second junction, some at the third, some have been let into the line of traffic at the midway point from a side road, some may not even know where they are or where they're going.

So it's not a queue in the true definition of the word - more a random collection of vehicles each with completely different intensions who happen to be at the same part of the road network at roughly the same time.

So we need to start again then?

But the whole point of this thread is flawed

Since when did that ever stop anyone?? 😆

Keep it going. It's like Groundhog Day. The only thing going nowhere as doggedly as this thread is molgrip's driving 😉

To add molegrips, if you were second in line behind a slow moving truck, how would you feel if the first driver just infront of you slowed and flashed his lights to kindly let another driver enter ahead of him from a side road. You are now sent back to third in line behind the truck.

An overtaking oppertunity comes up but only enough for two cars. The two cars infront of you go but you are left stuck behind the truck. There are no more overtaking oppertunities for another 5 miles.

How would you feel in this instance? Did the other drivers act of kindness and consideration steal your oppertunity to overtake from you?

Molgrips still doesnt seem to grasp that mr speedy can go faster therefore he has more oppertunities to overtake safely in a shorter distance.
Why should he be held up because someone else cant / wont overtake?

If he's overtaken molgrips and dropped in front of him, he'll be gone again before molgrips has the chance to overtake.

Still smacks of sour grapes to me. ITS NOT FAIR. I still dont get how its bad manners.

[i]What makes you think that I'm doing something wrong? [/i]
Err, so Driving grips doesn't do anything wrong when he drives ? ie, you're [i]the[/i] perfect driver 😯

[i]Why can speedyman not just be an arsehole? Are there no arseholes on the road?[/i]
Err, That the roads are full, verge to verge, with less than perfect people. Isn't news, is it ? Not even after 23 pages on a bike forum.

[i]I'm sure the driver in your scenario wasn't intentionally stopping you from overtaking.[/i]
I bet he was....... remember, the whole world is set against some folk.
😉

[i](Well, in practice I'd probably ask you if you were in the queue, but in a line of traffic we unfortunately don't have that luxury so I'd have to apply a best guess)[/i]
Which is why every car should be equiped with a roof mounted PA system. Then you can ask the car in front, whether they are going to overtake or not.
😀

[img] [/img]

Morning all.... Still here then?

Molly, have you enroled on the IAM/RoSPA course yet? 😉

You should all try a driving spell in Romania

Etiquette and politeness isn't really something that goes into planing an overtake there.

Any overtaking move where no on dies is a good one.

My favourite is the double overtake.

Tractor is travelling down the road, you pull out to overtake. Guy behind in an X5 pulls out past you (sometimes even slightly onto the verge) and goes round both of you simultaneously.

Once you've experienced that, Speedy man in UK moving up the queue is really not something I'd even bat an eyelid at

I spent a year in Saudia Arabia in the early 90s. That was a similar eye opener too...

In town at traffic lights. Two lanes. Five cars abreast including mounting the pavement was a common occurance.

Five cars abreast on a three lane motorway (between Alkhobar and Ras Tanura if you know the area) was also common. Equivalent to undertaking on the hard shoulder while another driver overtakes at 90mph on the gravel between lane three and the armco barrier!!

You should try India. I was in a mini bus which was being overtaken by a 4x4 as the same time we were overtaking a truck which was overtaking a tractor which was overtaking a rickshaw.

Looking closely ahead down the road exactly the same thing was happening but coming towards us in the opposite direction. Somehow the traffic all merged and we all lived.

You should try Barnstable. Sheesh.

You should try India. I was in a mini bus which was being overtaken by a 4x4 as the same time we were overtaking a truck which was overtaking a tractor which was overtaking a rickshaw.

Shouldn't there be something there about an old lady who swallowed a fly, I don't know why she swallowed a fly, perhaps she'll die?

You should try India. I was in a mini bus which was being overtaken by a 4x4 as the same time we were overtaking a truck which was overtaking a tractor which was overtaking a rickshaw.

That's so unfair. It was molgrips' turn.

In town at traffic lights. Two lanes. Five cars abreast including mounting the pavement was a common occurance.

They've stopped at the traffic lights, thats more civilised than London.

[i]That's so unfair. It was molgrips' turn.

[/i]

Fair ?, try explaining your concept of fair to this bunch.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Bump for the vegetarians.

I get it now. This thread is an allegory for the pigheadedness displayed by both sides of the eternal religion/atheism debate, in a format where no-one can claim persecution of their beliefs with any success, thus ensuring the thread remains open.

Excellent work all.

It's early days yet but so may be the vegetable thread. But I have work to do so won't be joining in today. 🙁

Boom! 800!??!!

I'll get my string backed driving gloves 😳