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We were rejected time and time again for any of the above reasons despite having an extremely loved and happy dog for so long.
Also, you can’t be that fussy about breeds at rescue centres, unless you want a staffy. Wall to wall staffies at all the centres.
a) Staffies are brilliant dogs, our long since departed lad was a proper character.
b) We have two kids under 12 - no problem with the right dog at a rescue that are capable of figuring that out.
Ledbury area, these guys asked sensible questions and are a proper no-profit place, helped us with our two:
hwanimalrescue.org
Do the two terms just reflect differing welfare levels?
Yes. And if there is a current surge in prices, that will fuel the practice even more.
Some good advice here.
How can scoping the postcode on streetview tell the difference?
Is somebody living in a ‘rough area’ a puppy farmer; and somebody living in a ‘nice area’ a breeder or just a successful puppy farmer?
Not necessarily. They sometimes use a nicer house in a good area to show off the puppies to buyers, claiming that is their home.
What is the difference between a breeder and a puppy farm? Surely both let dogs hump then sell the offspring to make money. Do the two terms just reflect differing welfare levels?
In my (albeit very limited) experience, a puppy farm is churning out puppies as quickly as possible with little thought of the welfare of either the parent dogs (there just for the breeding and not a pet, kept in poor conditions, multiple litters) or the puppies that they have, the animal is there purely for commercial gain. We quickly found that popular breed dogs, often priced at lower than the average rate (ie tempting the buyer) would often come up in the same areas of the country. A quick internet search of 'location' and puppy farm' would bring up one (or often more) in that particular area. It would also be common to see several litters of different breeds in very similar looking pictures. Sometimes a google image search would pick up images that had been reused.
In our experience, a 'proper' breeder was using a family pet for the puppies (and that was not just churning out litters), we were able to view the puppies with the (genuine) mother in the home environment, get full details of the sire, had full health / hereditary conditions checks for both parents and honest and open communications throughout the process. Yes they are there to make some money, but at the same time the welfare of their own cherished family pet was paramount. Breeders are often council / KC registered as well.
How can scoping the postcode on streetview tell the difference?
Is somebody living in a ‘rough area’ a puppy farmer; and somebody living in a ‘nice area’ a breeder or just a successful puppy farmer?
I appreciate that this is subjective, but in exactly the same way as buying a second hand bike or car (not from a shop), you are more inclined to trust someone based on where they live and the state of the property they live in. If on a search the place looks like it could be a puppy farm in an area known for them, then there is more of a risk that it is. We viewed a dog on a fixed traveller site which rightly or wrongly would put many off (lovely owner, not a breeder, well cared for family pet, didn't buy as was a bit early in the search for us), conversely we avoided a handful of places based not just on what the property looked like, but a also a lack of detail in adverts, lack of full details on the parent dogs etc. There's always a risk of still being duped, but for us it was about doing as much research as we could to give ourselves the best chance of getting the right dog and minimising the chances of funding animal cruelty.
Not necessarily. They sometimes use a nicer house in a good area to show off the puppies to buyers, claiming that is their home.
Edit: As above, the location check was something we did alongside other checks, not as the single marker of good/bad.
The link that you shared is a really good one, a lot of that we did do as part of our search.
Dude, good lurchers are fetching stupid money these days as well.
Good Hare dogs have always been worth a sum and a half.
No one buys a handsome lurcher, they buy a proven worker or its offspring.
Meet Beti.
We picked her up on Saturday and has fitted right in (very happy sleeping / farting on the sofa). She is an absolute beauty and really mellow. 3 years old but looks like a puppy due to the large ears.
https://www.hungaryheartsdogrescue.co.uk
No one buys a handsome lurcher, they buy a proven worker or its offspring.
Yes but people also buy good family dogs, I grew up around proper working Springer Spaniels, I also know that cockerpoos make great family pets. There are now so many of them that I'd have thought that statistically I'd have met a bad one by now but I haven't.
Not necessarily. They sometimes use a nicer house in a good area to show off the puppies to buyers, claiming that is their home.
We looked at one breeder, who sent through videos of puppies , claiming to be raised by a loving family etc. You could clearly see that the kids were not used to handling them , nor the adult , who though you could only see his legs , was clearly showing body language that he didn’t want to be there and had zero interest in the puppies. Miss Marple ( the wife) did a bit of research on the seller from the address we were given to visit the puppy , and found out he was a “breeder” , with 16 dogs registered to him. We didn’t take that one any further.
@docrobster
Lurcher and Northumberland? That's got you a follow on Instagram. £72? You've been done, ours cost us a 6-pack and some treats for the remaining dog. She's even more scruffy though, still think we got a raw deal.
Clearly you have not had the same experience I (and many others) have had. Children under 12 in the house? No rescue. Not at home all day every day? No rescue. Have another pet? No rescue. Don’t have a fully enclosed large garden with secure fencing? No rescue. Not owned a dog before? No rescue.
We tick every one of those boxes barring the second pet, two weeks past on Friday we came home with a 2 1/2 year old greyhound from his foster home. We applied back in July or so and got a text at 11pm a few days before we picked him up to say a suitable match had been found. Went for a home visit and everyone got to meet each other, he's been amazing so far (when he's not being a total buttface). Small garden has been challenging when he takes a shit fit and wants to chase/be chased but other than that we've had no issues.
As stripeysocks says check out your local greyhound rescue, we got Mikey from Scottish Greyhound Sanctuary but they work out a kennel in Yorkshire, may well be the same one in Sheffield as Greyhound Trust (haven't asked but they are sponsored by Gain which isn't common and that's the food he came with).
Oh and he cost the princely sum of £150, I think if I ever had to claim that back it would be re-sent as a donation.
I lost my best mate 18 months ago I'll never get over it.
If someone built a time machine and said they could take me back to enjoy my Miniature Schnauzer all over again and the price was £100,000 I wouldn't even blink.
@northwind
I guessed that must’ve been you.
We were just up for the week a couple of weeks ago. Stayed at west woodburn. I enjoyed your deadwater fell poster, post, too!
Really enjoyed the hills above rothbury. Great scenery... majestic.
I'd love a dog but work full-time so wouldn't be fair to the dog. I've mentioned this to people in the past who inform me that locking their dogs in a cage all day whilst they are at work is fine, not only fine but actually really calming and good for the dog. Sounds cruel to me.
Prices sound high to me but if it's from a reputable breeder and you get to meet the dogs and their parents (sounds weird typing that sentence), then I'm fine with it.
I've had conversations with other parents about to their new 'lockdown' dogs when waiting for the kids (school, football, swimming etc).
Things like:
The destruction of their homes, cars, slippers
etc along with their surprise that puppies like to chew everything.
Being kept awake at night with a new puppy whining being like having another child.
Surprise at the traits of the specific breed of dog they've bought, like a spaniel being able to leap over fences and having boundless energy. A chocolate lab being bonkers, along with being incredibly strong.
It's almost like they've made an impulse purchase based purely on aesthetics, now that's a surprise (add eye rolling emoji).
Things like:
The destruction of their homes, cars, slippers
etc along with their surprise that puppies like to chew everything.Being kept awake at night with a new puppy whining being like having another child.
Surprise at the traits of the specific breed of dog they’ve bought, like a spaniel being able to leap over fences and having boundless energy. A chocolate lab being bonkers, along with being incredibly strong.
I guess owning a puppy is very much like owning a new born baby. The reality is often very different to the expectation and I don't think this is a bad reflection on the owners of the puppies as, like babies, puppies are all different. One spaniel might chew everything on sight, the other not (ours only ate shoes but that was probably because she sleeps in the utility where we have a shoe rack). One puppy may whine at night (and this may also carry on throughout its adulthood), the other not. Similarly one baby will sleep through after a matter of months, the next child will still be waking every night throughout their childhood years. One child may be needy and anxious, the other confident and independent.
The thing is, nobody knows what they are going to get.
The destruction of their homes, cars, slippers
etc along with their surprise that puppies like to chew everything.
I find it quite amusing seeing Buddy dragging my size 12 rigger boot along the hallway.
The thing is bigger than him
I think a lot of people go into dog ownership without knowing what to expect. I have a friend who runs a residential day care for dogs as well as having one of her own, luckily this has really helped me see what to expect. At times I have arrived at their house to be greeted by the dog, stroked it then wondered what the hell the terrible smell was, to be handed a bottle and asked to wash the dog who'd rolled in 'something', we later found the pigeon carcass she'd been rolling in! Also, having seen a dog who when staying with my friend was happy and well behaved and when crated for most of the day by it's owner was unhappy, it was sadly eventually taken back to the breeder.
I know this is going to be hard work, I got a rescue older than full on puppy and luckily she at least sleeps through the night, she is on a mission to eat everything though!
I’ve mentioned this to people in the past who inform me that locking their dogs in a cage all day whilst they are at work is fine, not only fine but actually really calming and good for the dog. Sounds cruel to me.
If not properly trained which, going by most crate reviews, a sizable proportion aren't then yes, it's extremely stressful. Done properly however the crate is a safe space that the dog actively goes to of its own accord and only gets shut in when necessary. Its also never a punishment method.
We got a crate yesterday for travelling in the C8 (more secure than opening the door and hoping for the best, we know its not a proper travel crate). He was straight in and comfy in no time flat rather than faffing about trying to persuade him into the boot in the Mondeo.
What is the difference between a breeder and a puppy farm? Surely both let dogs hump then sell the offspring to make money. Do the two terms just reflect differing welfare levels?
It's really very simple to tell.
Why do they have puppies to sell?;
1) because they are keeping a puppy for themselves and are selling off the rest of the litter = breeder
2) they have bred a litter to sell all of the puppies = puppy farmer
It’s really very simple to tell.
Why do they have puppies to sell?;
1) because they are keeping a puppy for themselves and are selling off the rest of the litter = breeder
2) they have bred a litter to sell all of the puppies = puppy farmer
Way too simplistic. A breeder may or may not keep a pup from a litter (particularly for shown dogs as they will judge a pups potential before deciding) and are also potentially selling to a waiting list of people who have researched sound breeders and breeding practices.
If on a search the place looks like it could be a puppy farm in an area known for them, then there is more of a risk that it is. We viewed a dog on a fixed traveller site which rightly or wrongly would put many off
It’s really very simple to tell.
Why do they have puppies to sell?;
1) because they are keeping a puppy for themselves and are selling off the rest of the litter = breeder
2) they have bred a litter to sell all of the puppies = puppy farmer
Not as I understand it. If they are breeding one litter at a time at home they are probably not a puppy farm (or at least not what is meant by the animal welfare charities as a puppy farm) even if its focussed on maximising revenue rather than a loving family pet. Puppy farms don't usually sell from the "farm", someone fronts the operation from a family home. Those normally look like quite respectable homes in nice areas. In fact that might well be a clue it is a farm/front - because whilst theres currently good cash in dogs thats not always been the case so if someone seems to be doing very well for themselves then they probably aren't getting rich on legit dogs.
Way too simplistic. A breeder may or may not keep a pup from a litter (particularly for shown dogs as they will judge a pups potential before deciding) and are also potentially selling to a waiting list of people who have researched sound breeders and breeding practices.
I'd say that we are totally in agreement with each other. In the example you give their motivation for having the litter is to keep a pup irrespective of whether they do or don't in the end. Waiting lists for decent breeders are inevitable if they are doing it right.
@squirrelking what was the racing name? (Current hound has over a thousand half-siblings...!)
(Current hound has lost the privilege to pee unsupervised as the little monkey has been digging up just-planted bulbs - I may have said something v rude v loudly this lunchtime when I discovered this...)
Glenvale Mick, never raced, only did trials.
Puppy farmers intensively breed, that's the difference. The bitches often get no resting time between litters and as such their welfare is severely compromised. There is absolutely no concern regarding the bloodlines (inbreeding, hereditary health conditions etc.) and a puppy farmer couldn't care less who they sell to.
Proper breeders still make money but actually care about their dogs and their welfare (in theory but we all know about the KC) . We actually got given a pedigree German Shepherd by a breeder (who was well known and bred police dogs for numerous forces across Europe) on the condition he had exclusive stud rights.
Lurcher and Northumberland? That’s got you a follow on Instagram. £72? You’ve been done, ours cost us a 6-pack and some treats for the remaining dog. She’s even more scruffy though, still think we got a raw deal.
Take a wander over the Fens after an illegal coursing meet. A free one will be tied up and abandoned because it didn't run fast enough or didn't kill the prey.
@squirrelking ah he's a half-cousin of two of mine (now passed away) through Larkhill Jo
http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?d=Glendale+mick&sex=&color=&birthyear=&birthland=
Only a very distant cousin to the current hound (aka most GHs have I'm Slippy somewhere in their family tree!!)
I have no interest in racing per se but I do find it interesting seeing how they're all related and their pre-adoption histories .
I’ve never purchased a dog. Always ended up taking them off people who no longer wanted them or couldn’t cope. Last two were a Newfoundland and a Labrador. Leo, the lab, is the best friend I’ve ever had and I really miss the big idiot.
I’ve had the same problem with rescue centres that others describe. Probably easier to adopt a kid!
@stripeysocks, wrong dog, ours is fawn and brindle
https://www.grireland.ie/results/greyhound-search/lineage/?gid=DEFF543C-DBCA-4747-885F-FA05D61AF592
dogbone, Beti looks very similar to my old dog. I use to joke that if she ever grew so her ears looked normal she be a giant 🙂
Take a wander over the Fens after an illegal coursing meet. A free one will be tied up and abandoned because it didn’t run fast enough or didn’t kill the prey.
You've been watching too many Guy Ritchie films.
That doesn't happen.
Quite right, wrong dog, but looking at your link I still see two of mine (including the current lazy bugger!) are distant cousins (of Mikey) through Top Honcho 🙂
.
You’ve been watching too many Guy Ritchie films.
Tell that to my sister who regularly has to report abandoned lurchers to the Soham/Ely Police. They are usually tied to old farm machinery in the field.
Take a wander over the Fens after an illegal coursing meet. A free one will be tied up and abandoned because it didn’t run fast enough or didn’t kill the prey.
You’ve been watching too many Guy Ritchie films.
Albert was found in graves park in Sheffield in the snow feb 2013 (remember the year we had snow till Easter) no collar no tag 9 Months old. A few have suggested he didn’t make the grade as a poacher’s dog. Probably true. He chases every thing that moves and has caught one pigeon since we had him.
That doesn’t happen.
How would someone/you know this? Serious question
I've been involved with running dogs for over 30 yrs.
I have never seen a dog left out in the middle of nowhere. I've met some proper ****s but most would try and get some cash back on the dog and sell it on if it was no good. No good for top end coursing does not make a dog rubbish, it will still work to a high level, just not high enough for huge money stakes.. No proper courser abandons a dog.
And 9 month old dog is a pup, it hasn't even been tried yet so can't have failed to make the grade.
They are just starting to work then as starting them too soon can ruin them as well.
Edit to add this is derailing the thread a bit. Puppy prices are stupid, back on track 🙂
And just wait until all these people with their Lockdown Puppies are walking them at 6.30am in the dark and wet in the middle of January.
And just wait until all these people with their Lockdown Puppies are walking them at 6.30am in the dark and wet in the middle of January.
I reckon they'll be in for a rude awakening in a couple of weeks to be honest!
Proper breeders still make money but actually care about their dogs and their welfare
This
We bought our Lakeland Terrier from an apparently reputable breeder 14 years ago. She died late last year. We wanted a Lakeland as they are hypoallergenic and my daughter had asthma. When we went to see her she was the last one left and although appeared in good condition the whole setup was cold and appeared a bit calculating. Who doesnt fall in love with a puppy but we reflected on the fact that she would have been bred from and the mother looked very tired and we worried that she was just a breeding machine.
7 yrs ago we got a spaniel puppy from a breeder who clipped the Lakeland. We knew her for years and her love for her dogs is obvious. We see a number of them locally and they are all well socialised and healthy. We are picking up another spaniel any day (We think our spaniel misses her Lakey playmate) and again she is a reputable breeder and has interogated us to death, the way it should be and again we have seen brothers sisters, met other owners etc. We would have got another from the original breeder but she has had a couple of years of not breeding.
BTW we have built a relationship with both breeders and the prices are same as pre covid and well under <£1k
I have never seen a dog left out in the middle of nowhere
After six months without a dog we got our Patterdale 7.5 years ago from a local shelter. She had been found tied to a fence in the park. She was young but had had pups, she had scarring and was afraid of me if I made too much noise or moved too quickly for six months. We suspect she was abandoned because she was either rubbish at breeding, hunting or a caring wife wanted her out of an abusive house.
She is the sweetest, easiest going dog we have ever come across and it is awful to think what some of them go through. She is in my office now snoring away like a goodun. We actual went to see a whippet/saluki cross at the centre but she was too big as she was full saluki size but she was lovely and we were great with her, laughing at having paw prints on my shoulder and a good ear wash. The women at the centre must have made a quick judgment call as she took us to see the Patterdale and we took her home within the hour. The centre asked for £50. We have supported them ever since.
Our first whippet was a freebie years ago and even came with a drawer and cardigan to sleep in 🙂 she was a smaller version of squirrelkings lurcher. We heard that she was going to be shot because she was no good at working and said we would take her without seeing her. That was 24 years ago, she came from Workington when whippets had no value there. I cannot imagine a world where we pay £2k plus for dogs.
No proper courser abandons a dog.
Us lovely people wouldn't but there are some "interesting" people that inhabit the dingier parts of the country that will.
Back to topic, my boss paid £750 (!) for his cairn puppy around 18 months-2 years ago. They're around 4 times the price now.
Back to topic, my boss paid £750 (!) for his cairn puppy around 18 months-2 years ago. They’re around 4 times the price now.
£750 has been a steady ballpark price for a Cairn from from a good breeder for a number of years. I paid around that five years ago for one of mine.
The ones I've seen asking ridiculous prices online seem to be from folk seeing a quick buck from family pets.
I know a few established breeders who have knocked back folk looking for a lockdown pup without the foggiest about the breed or their characteristics/needs. The decent breeders haven't hiked up prices and are only selling to existing waiting lists.
(I'm involved in the breed club).
A business out of cross breeding - what a world! When i was kid they were called mongrels.