You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Kane tackle was horrific, split second away from snapping Robertson's shin in two. I'm also preferring the laissez-faire approach of VAR this season but if it's not going to be used for that what's the point in having it at all?
I don't know whether the respective culprits in either scenario had some influence, I'm sure Robertson is seen as a nastier player than Kane so will get more benefit of the doubt. Having watched it back, Kane's tackle really doesn't look good and was definitely worthy of a red. Robertson's tackle was never a leg breaker so looked less worthy of a card to me.
I was out and about today so didn’t see any footy
Just watching the Liverpool Spurs game on MOTD and both the refereeing and the VAR decisions were completely incomprehensible.
Absolutely zero consistency
You can argue whether Robertson’s challenge was a red or not, but if it was then Kane’s certainly was too
Robertson's was an absolutely textbook example of excessive force or brutality. No question it was a red. Why the ref needed VAR for that one, I have no idea.
Kane's was more difficult. He didn't do any of the things that make it easy for the ref to decide it was a nailed on red. He didn' go in two footed, straight in. His foot didn't go in over the ball, viewing it at full speed in real time it wasn't clear he didn't get the ball and his foot go across the leg instead of into it. Slo-mo shows that better. Because he goes to ground early and swings his foot across his body it doesnt look as bad. I think that's why VAR didnt intercede.
Although oddly in the spanish league there was a totally cynical two footed flying tackle from behind that only got a yellow, so who knows anymore.
Robertson's was petulant and aggressive but not dangerous. Kane's was a disgraceful out-of-control leg-breaker. No surprise to see a bitter trying to defend it though. No doubt you'd be there booing Robertson for diving or something.
Unsurprisingly Conte didn't see any of these incidents but was reliably informed by his staff about the 'handball' by Salah that apparently should have ruled out Liverpool's goal. 🙄
Is Conte the new Wenger
They were both dangerous and failed to take the safety of opponent into account. They were both deliberate, in that they knew what could happen, it wasn't accidental. In fact you could see Robertson's happening from 5 yards away.
Kane's wasn't more serious because his opponent's foot wasn't planted
Robertson's was almost knee height and could have been a ligament wrecker.
(point being - it's not the severity of outcome but the potential to cause it that dictates the seriousness nowadays. Players have a duty of care to each other)
Kane has form for those tackles but as England's chosen one, get away with murder. Robertson deserved red for stupidity. Looked worse than it was but he was clearly out of control. If Kane got a red, would Robertson have done that? He obviously felt aggrieved. It was a cracking game of football though.
Did anyone see Eddison take out Ryan Fraser by the way? VAR checked it and said as Cancello had the ball it wasn't a foul. I don't understand the rules any more.
Well the ref certainly upset Alan Shearer on MOTD, though not half as much as Dúbravka's inexplicable 'pass' that led to the corner that the first goal came from
It wasn't just that pass though. Cancello broke his neck to keep the ball in whilst our entire team stopped thinking it would go out. Doesn't matter how good you are, you have to be committed.
I'm not sure Howe's insistence that we have the keeper or defenders capable of passing the ball around at the back is right :). Lascelles in particular looks panicked every time the ball isn't on his forehead. Ciaran Clarke is probably lower championship/ League 1 level now. The owners must feel like they've bought a bit of a classic car that has just been sat, neglected for 15 years. January window will be interesting.
Yeah, VAR will need to be a bit more supportive of the referees for me, i.e. what is was intended to do, not have another referee somewhere in the UK making their own mind up about it, the bad tackles wouldn't take any longer for a VAR check as treatment is being carried out, the penalty decision as well, you have players arguing with the ref, why not just have them trot over to the screen?
For me though, Kane's was an out and out red, a complete out of control leg breaker of a challenge, yes he's a forward, he was heated up after scoring and so on, but that was an awful tackle, Robertson's red was a complete petulant kick out, he was more likely to injure himself with that and got a red for it, think most aren't arguing the red on review, but just the lack of consistency when everyone watching, bar the VAR ref picks Kane's as being the worst challenge by a mile.
That Ryan Fraser foul as well, if the ref is saying it's not a foul as Cancello had the ball, well does that mean you can just scythe down attackers if your teammate has the ball, it's the referee's explanations today that are the most suspect, as they aren't even following the rules of the game!
Indeed, when the ‘extra ref’ principle is applied inconsistently it really frustrates. In either case the way the on field ref saw things, for me, could have been 2 reds or 2 yellows - whatever he decides as he sees it. The whole game was a fairly physical affair with both teams going at it, the on field ref didn’t miss either challenge. Why the VAR ref felt that Robertson’s needed a further look and Kane’s didn’t just leads to an extra layer of inconsistency.
RM.
Robertson’s was petulant and aggressive but not dangerous. Kane’s was a disgraceful out-of-control leg-breaker. No surprise to see a bitter trying to defend it though.
I've no idea who the bitter is, but there is only one person whose biases are showing. Maybe trade the specs in for a less tinted version.
No one is arguing Robertson was hard done by. You are literally the only person trying to play down Kane's challenge apart from maybe Harry Kane. I wonder why...
Come to think of it wasn't Fred an Everton fan 🧐
No one is arguing Robertson was hard done by.
I think what you mean is that no one is saying Robertson's wasn't a red, but that's not how I read what you actually wrote.
This
Robertson’s was petulant and aggressive but not dangerous
Rather suggests you think he was hard done by. Petulant and aggressive don't make it a red card. Not dangerous would tend to make it not a red card. It was violent and dangerously. Hence the red.
Kane's wasn't apparently, if there was sufficient doubt that it was a red, VAR would have intervened.
Don't know Fred. Maybe hum a few bars, I'll see if I can pick it up.
Pull up your trousers, your biases are still showing.
Robertson's was a red, Kane's was a definite red. The fact that they were treated totally differently is the issue. But then you knew that.
Kane was trying to win the ball, going for a 50-50, over-zealous, not filthy
Robertson just lost his temper, a shocking 'challenge', obvious intent to hurt
It's the cynical taking-one-for-the-team fouls to break up an attack that really piss me off
Also, is Obstruction still in the rule book?
Robertsons was something you see many times during a season when folk are timewasting in the corner or shielding the ball, it’s no argument to give a red, but Kane’s tackle was wreckless and dangerous, he was moving at speed with no control and he made no attempt to come out of that tackle when the ball was gone, the two fouls aren’t even close in terms of being dangerous
I'd rather have been on the end of Robertson's challenge than Kane's. Robertson was lucky that he had time to take the weight off that leg, Kane's challenge had momentum behind it and his studs were up.
At the risk of flogging a dead horse the way Robertson leapt 5 ft in the air to get away from Kane's challenge is telling - it wasn't theatrics it was 'I need to make absolutely sure I escape this so my leg doesn't get broken'. But not even worth referring to VAR apparently. And one reason given was that Robertson managed to jump out of the way! Er...
Liverpool Leicester game is well worth a watch on the highlights btw - great comeback from Liverpool and some cracking goals including an absolute screamer from James Madison.
Refs seems to have totally given up on stopping goalies come off the line before a penalty kick is taken though. There were a few saves in the shootout that looked well dodgy to me.
Also, is Obstruction still in the rule book?
Yes, it was even clarified and expanded a few years ago. Mostly refs let it slide on the 'sheilding is playing the ball by not playing the ball, so not obstruction. Gets a bit thin when another player is playing the ball while the other is 'shielding' by putting his shoulder into someone's face. Not worth the effort of blowing the whistle apparently.
Refs seems to have totally given up on stopping goalies come off the line before a penalty kick is taken though. There were a few saves in the shootout that looked well dodgy to me.
See obstruction, above. The VAR were checking and ordering retakes for a bit but seems like the on filed refs aren't willing to take the abuse for actually calling it. It's alright for the guy sitting with his feet up, cup of tea in hand, 500miles away watching on a monitor.
But not even worth referring to VAR apparently
This is a misconception, I think. My understanding is that VAR automatically review everything within it's remit, so goals, penalties, offside leading to goals fouls leading to goals and cards issued/not issued.
They would have reviewed that the Kane yellow and decreed it wasn't an obvious error. No referral involved. I don't want to see going to ground effectively taken out of the game by given yellows and reds routinely. I do want to see petulant attacks from behind removed though.
grum
Full MemberLiverpool Leicester game is well worth a watch on the highlights btw – great comeback from Liverpool and some cracking goals including an absolute screamer from James Madison.
Refs seems to have totally given up on stopping goalies come off the line before a penalty kick is taken though. There were a few saves in the shootout that looked well dodgy to me.
I was stood immediately to the side of the goalpost (with the lino), it would also seem that the penalty-taker not stop / start stuttering their run-up is also perfectly fine.....
I think the goalies only have to be partially on the line, they seem to leave one foot on the line but take one step sideways/forwards towards the direction they're diving
rhinofive
Full Member
grum
Full MemberI was stood immediately to the side of the goalpost (with the lino), it would also seem that the penalty-taker not stop / start stuttering their run-up is also perfectly fine…..
God i wish they'd stop that stuttering runs and dancing around, they tweaked the rules and made it no better, i can't even understand if they've stopped or are hopping, the refs just don't care either, same with encroachment at a penalty.
Can't wait to see what rules they start reworking for next season, VAR is just another referee who's trying not to rock the boat unless it's a howler, so effectively making the actual referees decision for them in most instances, and the new rules are as lax as ever, that Man City penalty the other week where it hit the guys armpit, the new rules state that isn't handball, but penalty given and VAR agreed.
The stuttery run ups do my head in. TBF if that's allowed then goalies should be able to come off their line too.
Maybe it should be like a conversion in rugby where you can close down as soon as you start your run up, Pogba would definitely suffer in that scenario
I have no idea if the stats back this up but it seems to me that players are getting too good at scoring penalties. You seem to see more shootouts that go on for ages with no misses. Combine that with last season where they would give them out at the drop of a hat and it's pretty boring.
Therefore I'm in favour of stuff that makes them harder to score. As with most things in football though some consistency wouldn't go amiss.
GK doesn't have to remain 'on' the line
When the ball is kicked, the defending goalkeeper must have at least part of one foot touching, or in line with, the goal line.
Anyone banking on actually watching any footy on Boxing Day?
It’s not looking likely, is it?
No VAR in the Carabao cup so the goalies position would be checked by the ref and the assistant ref. I’d like goalies to be able to do what the hell they want, especially if the silly run ups are permitted. It’s a free shot from 12 yards!
The stuttery run ups do my head in
Same here. Let them be scored but they can only be worth half a goal. Jorginho/Fernández et al. should also be made to wear a fricking bell around their neck for that awful little skip.
Yes, teams are better at penalties but I don't think goalies are any worse. They are bigger and better than ever. How many long range screamers actually get scored these days? By the way, look up December 2006 Goal of the Month on YouTube. Wow!
I think there are less long-range screamers these days partly because everything is increasingly stats driven also. I believe most of the time the xG or whatever suggests that getting closer to goal before shooting is statistically significantly more likely to be successful.
Some amazing goals there - Essien's in particular.
Cheers grum - my son loves watching goals on YouTube so will show him this. Scholes volley is my favourite - so languid, sheer timing and technique. Have it!
Scholes' volley: no wasted energy, perfect timing and absolutely certainly that it would hit the target. Stockley Park would no doubt rule that out these days as it was just too filthy:)
They are bigger and better than ever.
The Great Dane says “Hi!”
I remember that Essien goal from way back when, the ball just seems to stay in the air for an extraordinary amount of time, even when hit from 30 yards.
Have to say I fear Newcastle are for the drop, even if they do bring all and sundry in the players will need a bit of time to gel, and you'd expect them all to have a buy out clause saying if they go down they leave = I'll try a bit but if the worst does happen hey-ho, got paid a few extra quid for the effort.
Some absolute peaches there @grum
Loved that Matty Taylor volley from near the half way line
Have you watched the Class of 92? You don’t have to be a United fan. It’s a fascinating insight into a bygone era. But it shows you Scholes practicing those sort of shots. The accuracy is bonkers!
Gary Neville said you could never turn your back on him because he’d use you for target practice. One day he was having a piss by the perimeter fence of the old Cliff training ground and Scholes hit him square on the arse with a ball from 65 yards 😂
I thought Trents screamer last week was Scholes-esque. Coming in from midfield and absolutely putting his laces through it. Superb!
I feel there aren't many players that can properly hit a ball these days, probably because you can get away with toe punting a modern ball so hitting the ball cleanly is less of an issue than with older, heavier balls.
The Essien strike was a beauty but the Drogba one was my favourite as he created the chance out of nothing. I'm sure he scored a similar one against Liverpool and it was just the type of play you couldn't defend against
As a spurs fan who was at the game I can agree Kane should have been dismissed. He wasn't because he's England captain, not normally a nasty player and the ref allowed the home crowd to influence him. From the park lane (home end) it looked a superb challenge and we were angry play stopped. Half the crowd were venting that anger. If it had been anfield, the kop and Salah going through dier at knee height the result wouldn't have been so surprising. I thought var was supposed to remove some of that inconsistency. It's nice to think whl and the home crowd can sway a game as old whl was never a particularly intimidating venue.
Have to say I fear Newcastle are for the drop
Me too! The squad is certainly championship standard with only really ASM, Wilson and maybe Willock any better. We've actually played games this season with 5 or 6 of the 2017 Championship winning team. Complete regression compared to anyone else in the division and the fact we got up and stayed up with that squad means Rafa will always be well thought of. Being polite, Bruce hasn't improved it really despite spending a few quid and it now needs totally rebuilding. In that context relegation may not be a bad thing long term. Its allows Howe time out of the wider glare of the EPL to implement his philosophy with his players, who'll be more hungry and committed that say Anthony Martial or any other late 20's player looking for the contract of his career. I can't see any deal being in done in January without relegation clauses though- especially for internationals, bearing in my it's a WC year.
Don't mean to pick on Martial but he's been linked with us. He's exactly the wrong kind of player for us right now, if ever!
I think you're bang on there. We'll be glad to be shut of him on recent form. He's great when he can be bothered, which seems increasingly rare. He was good when he arrived, then he just seems to have coasted for the last couple of seasons. Casually jogging about, doesn't track back, just doesn't seem arsed
I note all the press (via his agent) are saying he wants away as he doesn't get game time. Well how about trying a bit harder to earn a starting place then?
You need to watch yourselves that you don't get seen as a semi-retirement home (like Chris Sutton accused Arsenal of becoming, and Old Trafford now seriously resembles) where players can get a big payday for an easy time not really competing at the top level.
I've a mate who's a toon fan and he's worried, like you, that its already nailed on that they'll be the richest club in the championship next year
After the last 15 years, I'm not really worried about relegation though. It might be what's needed.
Read that there are issues with Martial moving on as no one wants to pay his wages. £240k a week! £240k! Most overrated player ever, can’t believe Utd paid near £60m for him, what 5 or 6 years ago?!
I think if Dan Ashworth does end up at Newcastle then I doubt very much you’ll become a retirement home for big players on big wages.
Just hoping that either Newcastle go for a bigger name as their technical director or Ashworth decides it’s not for him. It really would be a shame for us to lose him right now.
£240k a week! £240k! Most overrated player ever, can’t believe Utd paid near £60m for him, what 5 or 6 years ago?!
Welcome to the Ed Woodward school of transfer negotiations. Great, innit?
I suppose he was behind Phil Jones getting a new contract too.
And signing Alexis Sanchez on the thick end of half a mil a week
And Pogba
And, and, and…
I’m getting ready to add Lingard and Pogba both leaving on free transfers to his illustrious list of achievements
If Newcastle are to survive they need to become stronger through the spine, maybe look at getting a few in January who are out of contract, like Brozovic, Kessie, etc who can make them a bit harder to go through, up front, there's loads to choose from, wouldn't be going mad with them, if they could, Modric would be a great signing, still got the magic, get him in with a Brozovic/Kessie and it would make them a hell of a lot better in the middle, just a defender would give them a fighting chance of staying up.
In the end, i think they're 6 points from safety, (3 from Watford who have 2 in hand) they need to just aim to stay in that game, 20 games left where they need to stay in touch with Watford/Leeds, which i think is reasonable, especially if they get a few decent players in, but as always, you definitely don't want any prima donnas at this stage of the season!
A touching Christmas message from the King 😂
https://twitter.com/cantona_collars/status/1474288863959003137?s=21
Viagra all round at Manure!?!?
Yep, love Cantona - ex Leeds great.
Well we didn’t even deserve a point out of that! Played off the park for 90 minutes. Could have been 3 down by half time
Utter and complete shite! Truly dismal to watch.
Yup. Another disgraceful performance up there with those against PL titans Norwich and Watford.
We are so bad at doing the basics. Can’t pass. Can’t move. Can’t find space. Can’t pick up. Shocking.
Yep, but it’s going to take longer than a few weeks to turn things around. Give Ralf until the end of the season, he’ll get you into the Europa League, where the current squad belongs. Be interesting to see who they sign in January. Couple of midfielders surely.
DDG our saviour again. Could easily have been 3-1 and that wouldn’t have flattered Newcastle.
What's amazed me this season is the lack of silly yellow cards, leading up to a automatic ban for the matches over Xmas. I wonder how they've managed to get Xmas off this year.
As always it's after Xmas where it starts ramping up, ManU need to get something going, they're misfiring up top, still just a disjointed team with a load of the players not knowing how to play with, and more importantly, without the ball.
They're also starting to kill the confidence of the youngsters that will be the clubs future, Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho are just not looking happy just now when playing, too many sacrifices to fit Ronaldo in maybe?
Defo agree. I’d start Cavani as centre forward with two of Sancho/Greenwood/Rashford either side. Much more mobile - Cavani puts in a hell of a shift. Was City’s alleged interest in Ronaldo the best troll of all time? Be interesting to see if Rangnick leaves him out more often.
Ronaldo is a whiny, angry, petulant little child. I don't care how good he is - he's a scumbag. Should have been sent off again and needs shipping out for the good of the team.
Well I haven't watched a lot of football this season but I was forced to last night on account of my geordie family visiting for xmas. I see now what you lot have been whining about for so long as only one team looked like they were in a relegaton battle and it wasn't the toon. It would appear that the problem at Man U wasn't the previous manager. 😄
Was City’s alleged interest in Ronaldo the best troll of all time?
No. It's the second best. Their alleged interest in Alexis Sanchez was by far and away the best. Ronnie has at least scored a few goals while in the process of unsettling the rest of the squad, unlike Sanchez. Somebody did the maths and IIRC it worked out that he'd cost the club £6.5 million per goal
It would appear that the problem at Man U wasn’t the previous manager
I'm sure everyones bored of me repeating it, but the manager is always going to be up against it while the clubs clueless/parasitic ownership remains the same. The prime example being the way Martial is indulged, despite being hopeless and on an enormous salary, because apparently Joel Glazer really likes him, so he can do whatever he wants
Oh yes, Sanchez! Although scoring goals for Inter currently……
the manager is always going to be up against it while the clubs clueless/parasitic ownership remains the same.
Can that really fully explain why the players have such a bad attitude though?
It's a fair point. Players shouldnt play worse because of bad owners, good players should be good players.
Mostly though I see utd like a few Liverpool sides, just packed with players who at time stroll about thinking they own the place and not putting in 100%.
There's no surprise why some players go down in history at a club, because crime and time again you find them doing everything possible, running themselves to death for the team.
There's no excuse for poor effort
I can’t tell you, to be honest with you Grum. Who knows? Certainly not the new manager by the looks of things.
They’re an absolute disgrace, the lot of them. Cavani and (as always) De Gea were the only ones who turned up yesterday. The rest of them aren’t fit to wear the shirt. Gary Neville was bang on with his description of ‘a bunch of whingebags’
I can sort of understand Bruno as I’m pretty sure he’s tired of carrying the idle bastards around him.
The worst of the lot is Maguire. How he’s got the front to pull on the captains armband is beyond me. Absolutely zero leadership and another absolutely pathetic performance. But they all look like a bunch of moaning, sulky, petulant, spineless, spoilt little overpaid diva’s
On a non-United front; what an absolutely superb defensive performance that was by a ten man Southampton there. Could have nicked a win at the end too. Brilliant!
Looking like the title race is pretty much over then 😞
Yeah, Liverpool were pretty flat tonight, despite having a much longer break between games. City always seem to have easier matches, I guess because they’re so good!
Well done Man City 😂
Seriously though, good to see Leicester winning, they’ve had a tough season, I think this season it’s about the battle for the CL places, so many going for that fourth spot this year, it’ll be interesting to see what movement the January window brings, think arsenal and Tottenham smell some blood, so could invest, Newcastle will be buying up the rest!
Yeah good to see Leicester get a hard fought result, with such a makeshift defence. Think playing city at weekend made them realise they needed to defend differently.
Newcastle will be buying up the rest!
I think Newcastle are going to struggle getting the players they have so far been linked with, I doubt anyone with am eye on the world cup are going to risk going to a relegation struggle thoe players are going to look higher in the table, Newcastle are going to be in the market for some solid mid table players before they set their sights on international level players.
Yeah, it'll be a weird time, just think, Man City just sold another forward without really weakening their squad, imagine a decade or so ago thinking that Barcelona would be buying up a Man City bit part player and saying he'll be their main man, the football world's gone mad lately!
I think the best the rest can do is hope Pep does leave when he claims he will at the end of next season. Or Ruben Dias gets injured long term/tempted to play for Real or Bayern. He’s immense.
Still a fair way to go yet, but City do look imperious.
Re: Newcastle signings.. Keegan always said his best 2 signings were Brian Kilcline from Coventry for £250k and Rob Lee from Charlton for £750k. Both far from glamorous at the time but were instrumental in our promotion to the top tier in 1992. Neither were heralded as big signings but they were so influential to a very young squad. We need those sorts of players this January not 4 fringe internationals from Lique 1 who's heads have been turned by massive salary offers or big names who's stars are fading. Trippier could happen next week according to twitter. If so, better than I imagined and seems a committed, vocal player.
Yeah good to see Leicester get a hard fought result, with such a makeshift defence.
Did occur to me, given Leicesters supposed weakness at set pieces, that Brendan Rogers may want to ask his regular defenders exactly why they should be getting their places back in the team when fit.
Another good night for City last night with Chelski drawing
I’m not sure if I can bear to watch another of our pitiful performances this evening. It’s not doing my blood pressure any good. They seem to keep getting progressively worse.
Depending on what form Dave’s in will probably depend on if we draw or lose. I hope the rumoured clear out of the wage-thieves really is on the cards. There’s far too many hugely-overpaid passengers stealing a living at the moment. I’m sure the biggest one of the lot, Maguire, has got his excuses already prepared
It's very interesting to see Tuchel moaning after the game. They were 4 points clear about a month ago but it's everyone else's fault that they've had a big drop in form, injuries, Covid etc. Etc
I did think that it was a bit rich when the man with the largest squad in the league (the country? Europe?) was saying he was unable to field a full bench of subs...
Really?
Did you hear the interview with Sean Dyche yesterday? His quote about covid diminished squads was that everyone should "just stop moaning and get on with it" 🤣
Chelsea could avoid relegation with a team consisting of players that they've sent out on loan. They have a ridiculous squad. Is Batshuayi still on their books!?
Four up front for United - go get em Ralf!