[Closed] Our first "post-Brexit" package from the UK....plus Tax

I had similar on a wedding gift back in 2017 from some friends in Seoul. Felt bad not stumping up the £30+ but it was just chopsticks and funny korean foods.

Why would you have to pay VAT when it will already have been paid in the UK? As far as I'm aware you don't pay sales taxes twice, brexit or no. No?

Ah my mum strangely declared a free card reader as £30 my bill was €26 🙁

Why would you have to pay VAT when it will already have been paid in the UK? As far as I’m aware you don’t pay sales taxes twice, brexit or no. No?

I think you do pay it twice now, unless you purchase goods in a specific way.

Why is there a double payment of VAT?
When the seller does not wish to act as an importer in Great Britain (DDU sales) and when the goods are not supplied via an Online Marketplace (OMP), the VAT treatment depends on the value of the consignment:

If the value of the consignment is less than or equal to 135 GBP: no VAT is due on the import (nor customs duties). The purpose of this exemption is to facilitate and speed up customs clearance on entry into Great Britain. In return, the seller has to issue the invoice including VAT and he is liable for VAT on the supply of goods.
If the value of the consignment exceeds 135 GBP: VAT is due on the import. As a consequence, at the time of delivery, the carrier will ask the British customer to pay the VAT in order to receive his parcel. In return, the seller has to issue the invoice not including the VAT. If the invoice includes VAT, the customer will pay the VAT twice.

As the importer, you need to pay the VAT in the importing country. And pay a charge for the privilege of having that VAT collected. Or have all the paper work lined up to show that the exporter has paid the vat to your country. That they may have charged or been charged VAT in the source country is a whole other thing to sort. It doesn’t stop VAT being payable to the destination country. We all need to get used to what were simple purchases/transactions, or gift sending, becoming import/export conundrums, with all the cost and hassle involved.

I am guessing 52% of people are happy with it/price worth paying.

Ah my mum strangely declared a free card reader as £30 my bill was €26 🙁

I once curated an international short film project - soliciting entries from all over the world. The submission instructions were to send a one minute excerpt on VHS and only to send any sort of full length higher quality master if selected.

A surprising number of people mailing a single VHS tape with a one minute clip on iit and wrote the full production budget for the film on the customs declaration.

I am guessing 52% of people are happy with it/price worth paying.

They're not though, it's "not the Brexit I voted for". We are getting a new yacht to rule the waves again though, that'll show Johnny Foreigner.

it’s “not the Brexit I voted for”.

curiously, it looks very much like the Brexit people voted against though doesn't it 🙂

Ooh I like that 🙂

Why would you have to pay VAT when it will already have been paid in the UK? As far as I’m aware you don’t pay sales taxes twice, brexit or no. No?

That was the nice thing pre-Brexit.

You threw it in the post and stuff just turned up.

I think the problem is that you really need to ‘not’ pay the vat in the U.K. and pay it on the import side.

If your a company it’s not a big deal but as a private individual it’s going to be a pain as your going to have to get sellers to subtract the vat and handle the dispatch abroad as otherwise everyone’s using the bikes going to France/Spain %20 discount code.

My mum buying a box of choc/bike pressie to freight to me is unlikely to be able to buy choc vat free and it will most definitely require a tax paid the other side.

There is a vat reciprocity agreement between Spain and the U.K. thou so companies are er fine if they can jump thru the right hoops but poor expats are screwed,( I’ll have to dig into a little deeper to see what individuals can do but tbh there’s a lot of giggles in this stuff.)

As Kelvin says more fun, just to move something 20 miles over a bit of water.

My mum was very surprised that sending a gift would attract tax and tbh it’s terrible to sorta say don’t send birthday or Xmas presents.

curiously, it looks very much like the Brexit people voted against though doesn’t it

I’ve never seen such a good summary of where we are or where we are going. Quote of the year.

Thought if it was a gift it would not get vat? Also thought you could not send food. My kids want their Shreddies.

curiously, it looks very much like the Brexit people voted against though doesn’t it

Or Project Fear, as it used to be known....

Thought if it was a gift it would not get vat?

Up to €22. Above that you pay. Until July 1st, after when even the low value gifts get charged. Don’t forget to get the declarations spot on as well. And, yes, you’re right, no fresh food of any kind in the parcel. Shreddies and Marmite are fine.

Hi spekkie we have dealz down here but the nearest to you is Valencia, I get Maltesers there but they do cream eggs, pot noodles etc. I think it's Poundland under a different name.

Puga cash and carry are in Barcelona and do marmite, Guinness.

If you get stuck I 'll mail you a red cross food parcel of uk stuff.

Hope your summer goes ok I would have come up but will be in uk.

I had a similar thing recently...

Ordered NX Groupset from Depor Village (Spanish based company, warehouse in Spain).
Didn't really give it much thought but it was cheap and as we all know stock is scarce everywhere so was glad to find some.

It just seems we pay VAT twice now, to the EU and on its way through UK customs.
The price for the groupset was identical in euros to the price I paid in GBP (You can select shipping destination and see the identical price give or take a few pennies once converted to GBP, but any EU country it informs you 'VAT included/paid)

So I thought I'd be able to claim the EU VAT, But the company just pockets the 20% I guess and laughs along to the bank?

Presents are easy, order on-line in the country your friends/relatives live.

Spekkie. ...surely the 20€ import VAT is too high for a package only worth £50 ..presumably the VAT is at your country's rate and somewhere around 20%( you didn't say where you were) .Do you have to pay VAT on the postage costs as well ? Even if that is the case it would have to have been a huge amount for you to have been charged what you paid . Doesn't make sense to me .

.Do you have to pay VAT on the postage costs as well ?

Yes.

Spekkie, at least your packages have turned up. None of the packages my parents have sent us since Brexit have arrived. We have a feeling that they're stuck in some customs black hole at Madrid airport. I've had to resort to buying expensive loose leaf tea to replace my usual Yorkshire Tea Gold order, and this has been the first Easter in my life without a Cream Egg.

That doesn't sound correct. While I am not a BREXIT expert, I live in Singapore and often get items from UK and EU and always get the local VAT knocked off and pay Singapore VAT upon import.

That doesn’t sound correct. While I am not a BREXIT expert, I live in Singapore and often get items from UK and EU and always get the local VAT knocked off and pay Singapore VAT upon import.

the way it should work for EU/U.K. is that a seller in the originating country pays the VAT/sales tax in the destination country. This is as bizarre as it sounds. this illuminating gov.uk blah

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

More typically, in normal places, it’s what you describe: the purchaser pays the untaxed cost of goods in the originating country and pays VAT/sales tax in the country of import + any import duties due + handling fees. That’s been what’s happened when I’ve bought from USA, Canada, …

but the BREXIT deal wasn’t designed with anyone but a few in mind.  Hoping folks are basking in the other benefits of increased sovereignty too.

I got hit with this when my dad sent my daughter a birthday present - rather than ordering it from a Spanish website he ordered it in the UK, then used DHL to send it to us. 34€ tax to get them to release it to us 🙁

BTW you can get Marmite in most of the bigger supermarkets in Madrid, it's not hard to find at all. On the Med coast it's even easier. You can even get Creme Eggs.

I am guessing 52% of people are happy with it/price worth paying.

I suspect far more than 52% of people couldn’t give a toss if expats have to pay more on gifts from british family! I still don’t think the Brexit voters get that all these things are intertwined and pretty much reciprocal. However does your average brexit voter get much stuff from outside the U.K.? Probably not. Probably even less that falls in this trap of being shipped by a non vat registered entity so gets double vat.

I agree. Many people don’t give a toss about placing additional barriers between family members, if it doesn’t effect them directly. Many even like the idea of punishing families that live across national barriers by making family life more difficult for them. We have an awful lot of people in the UK who either “don’t care” or are actively vindictive against a lot of people, and will show no concern as to how erecting barriers between countries effects other people, sadly.

However does your average brexit voter get much stuff from outside the U.K.? Probably not

I suspect they do just as most of us do...China? Just about everything we buy is sourced and made outside of the UK. UK trade with the EU was 40% with the remaining 60% coming from the rest of the world. This issue will sort itself out sooner rather than later. The likes of Amazon and the internet outlets are already on it - you think they're sat around scratching their backsides? There will be ways around the bureaucracy if the market is large enough. If there is stuff to be sold those selling it will find a way to get it to the market...you can be sure of that.

Some clever 15 year old and future billionaire will already be developing an app that will manage all the additional bureaucracy at the touch of a button.

Until July 1st,

Thats a good point - people don't actually have all of the Brexit that wasn't what they voted for yet.

Some clever 15 year old and future billionaire will already be developing an app that will manage all the additional bureaucracy at the touch of a button.

Can they sort out the NI border issue whilst they're at it. After all the government said that an Eborder was an easy fix.

I suspect they do just as most of us do…China? Just about everything we buy is sourced and made outside of the UK.

Sorry I worded that badly - I meant stuff shipped direct to them from outside the U.K. this just makes the Eu26 just as inconvenient to buy from as China and the US, and in a genius move by governments for years they’ve made it feel like dhl/fedex/parcleforce were the ones ripping us off.

28 - 1 = 27 😉

28 – 1 = 27 😉

Luxembourxit

That doesn’t sound correct. While I am not a BREXIT expert, I live in Singapore and often get items from UK and EU and always get the local VAT knocked off and pay Singapore VAT upon import.

Both sides want the money so no one is willing to give up their tax yet hence all the import export issues to EU/UK.

However does your average brexit voter get much stuff from outside the U.K.? Probably not

Like what? I used to order from Japan (no tax) but from Taiwan and the Philippines I was heavily taxed and that's before Brexit. The moral of the story order from Japan. 🙂

Want to buy pineapple? How many tonnes do you want? I can get them for you. 🙂

The only thing I will buy from EU is getting my German colleagues to "smuggle" some tobacco back to me ... LOL! Actually, I got all my colleagues travelling abroad to buy me some tobacco. A few rejected that's fine.

What do you buy from EU that you can't get in UK? I mean the last time I see I seem to be able to buy everything in the UK.

You obviously don't buy bike parts, Chewkw. Or guitars.

You obviously don’t buy bike parts, Chewkw. Or guitars.

Yes, not guitars as I have no clue about guitars. Bike parts I bought once or twice before Brexit long time ago.

The only thing I can complain about UK stuff is that they are not innovative enough but quality is fine.

In answer to the various questions - this package was from the UK to Spain, where Vat is 21%. The amount of VAT I was charged is not 21% of £50 - so maybe someone decided they knew better than us what the value of the package was? 🙂

You do apparently pay a charge for the value of the contents plus the cost of shipping.
There's no way for the person sending the package to pay the extra charges, they have to be paid this end by the person receiving it.
There isn't realistically a way for someone in the UK to not pay UK VAT if they buy something in their local supermarket.

@poolman - cheers! I'll shout if we get stuck. See you up here sometime ok?

@devash - sorry to here that man 🙁

More typically, in normal places, it’s what you describe: the purchaser pays the untaxed cost of goods in the originating country a

That's how it's supposed to work. Apparently, a lot of UK businesses are charging overseas buyers the VAT included price, and presumably claiming the input credit on their VAT, essentially trousering the VAT. Or charging overseas buyers 20% more than they should be. Those overseas buyers then page VAT in their home country. So not technically taxed twice but cost wise comes to the same thing.

I'm somewhat confused as to how I'm going to pop down to Tesco, buy a box of Creme Eggs to send to a mate on the continent, and go "sorry gov, I don't need to pay VAT because I'm sending it to Madrid and I'll pay it there instead, can you knock it off please?"

Is this something the sender can claim back from HMRC? Proof of purchase, proof of dispatch, sort of thing? Handling charges aside, could the gifter not do this and then reimburse the recipient?

Genuine question, this whole situation has left me confused.

Is this something the sender can claim back from HMRC

I seem to recall there is. The way non-residents can get the VAT back when they leave with a purchase - the full out the form, see customs at the airport go home and wait.
The other way is that they can ship the items home, which requires a different form and it's a different sub department.
Residents can do roughly the same thing, iirc. It's yet another form, another different sub dept etc.
Someone I know looked into this a while back, and that's what I recall the outcome was. I think you have to go to the shippers customs dept or a broker, do the forms, hand over the package. They may or may not agree and send you the VAT refund. I have a vague recollection that the guy I know that did it had an email contact for the right dept who talked him through it. I think he finally decided just to pay the VAT, as the process would have cost him more time and effort than it was worth. I think he either had to become an exporter or he had to find a freight forwarder able to document the custody trail from point of purchase to leaving the country. In essence they act as the exporter and are able to state the purchase, VAT, your custody, their custody and that the same goods left the country officially.

Get over buying UK stuff.

now extrapolate that out to the rest of the economy.

anyone who says brexit makes anything better is sounding increasingly deluded.

Get over buying UK stuff.
now extrapolate that out to the rest of the economy.

Yep, if your a big company this isn’t a problem as your export dept will have no problem although the little devil in the detail is that each EU country can have their own requirements to what they allow from 3rd countries.

For all the grandiose trading nation bs I’m not seeing anything that’s making it easier for the U.K. to trade.

That 20 miles is needlessly hard now.

I think he either had to become an exporter or he had to find a freight forwarder able to document the custody trail from point of purchase to leaving the country.

Yes you can use freight forwardars or brokers to take care of it all and save you the headache. For instance if I travel to the EU and take my tools and equipment with me I now have to have paperwork to save having to pay duty on exporting and importing my own stuff every time I pass through customs. Its quite complicated and the paperwork expires so its something you might have to do quite frequently. Luckily the government is able to summarise all the work you need to do as 'Get a freight forwarder to do it for you' and that it'll cost a very specific sounding £325.96.

So £325 is the time cost (if you do it yourself)  to actual cost (if you pay someone else) -  of making the arrangements to prove that your not liable to pay anything at all. Smooth.

I was about to say, for anyone trading on an industrial scale VAT is worth sorting out - and companies will be doing so, but for us receiving some goodies from home a tenner on a £50 package would be neither here nor there.

37 Euros on £50 is 74% though - which spoils the surprise enough not to want to do it again. Even for a Cream Egg.

I’m somewhat confused as to how I’m going to pop down to Tesco, buy a box of Creme Eggs to send to a mate on the continent, and go “sorry gov, I don’t need to pay VAT because I’m sending it to Madrid and I’ll pay it there instead, can you knock it off please?”

I'm pretty sure that this is what Johnson said they could do with regard to UK-Northern Ireland trade, in a roundabout way.

I’m feeling completely f@&ked over.
I bought a few different sizes of shirts and shorts from fox uk with the plan of finding the right sizes and sending the others back. It turns out fox uk is based in Eindhoven NL, which is fine as I qualified for free postage. However returning the unwanted items has cost me £15 in shipping plus £10 for insurance! Plus I had to fill out a customs declaration.
I liked being a European, I didn’t vote for this!
Sorry, I had to vent.

I bought some shoes from Lake, also based in Eindhoven. They didn't fit quite right so I sent them back via ups. I bought the service on the 15th May and dropped it off at the UPS point on the 18th of May it's now the 11th of June and it's just leaving the UK, who knows when it'll get back to Lake. I then have to hope they take pity on me and refund now it's outside their 30 day window

Used/read magazines sent uk->Spain have attracted handling charges.
2nd hand On One frame off eBay, total nightmare.
Goods ordered in UK spent weeks languishing in customs.
Marmite, Heinz beans, Guinness prices at Carrefour remain the same fwiw, but that's all muck for rabid expats.

I used to buy a fair bit of stuff from the Uk for various reasons; this year I've spent at least a couple of grand elsewhere because of the hassle.

Not the Brexit I voted against? I wish. Not eligible to vote in referendi, like 100,000s of other Brits, and thanks to Brexit I can't even vote in local council elections any more.

Running a post office I get this every day - if your sending a gift always label the customs form at less than £20....(sending from. The UK or out of the EU).... If you want insurance above £20 pay for a better service but still label the customs form at £20 or less.... Don't include any invoices in the parcel obviously.

Postage insurance and customs forms are two seperate things.

If your sending goods you've sold - label everything to the correct value and ideally include an invoice and any paperwork on the outside of the parcel, accessable by customs.

My MIL lives in Spain, it's taken 6months and around £150 in charges we've had to pay to get this into her head....

if your sending a gift always label the customs form at less than £20

Does this little trick stop working in… 18 days time? For sending into the EU? I’ve started forgetting what the 1st July changes are now, as looking at the fresh problems they’re going to introduce for cross border shipping was hurting my head.

All this for blue passports!?!?!

All this for blue passports!?!?!

Not just blue passports  - there's the also the enormous sense of satisfaction of having been able to **** things up just because you don't understand them. Remember those stalls at fairground where you could pay a quid to throw cricket balls at crockery. No game of chance or skill, just smashing things because you could - much more satisfying than having made the crockery in the first place.

As a small business whose sales are 40% b2c exports it's just so messy. Although I was totally against brexit I thought that with a deal selling b2c to the EU would be no different to the USA or the other countries we sell to. Wrong, it's now slower and more expensive to send our stuff 20 miles to France that it is the US! And nobody from ROW countries complained about fees, tax or duty on orders pre brexit where as our EU customers have been hit with huge fees from the shipping courier and often with duty applied that should be despite all documentation in place.
I was looking forward to IOSS but now we're being told we need to appoint an intermediary in the EU country we register in (Ireland in our case) despite the UK having a mutual assistance agreement with Ireland. The intermediary fees are several thousand pound.

now we’re being told

They were saying this would be required when I looked into it in Dec/Jan.

Red tape isn’t free. Which is fine, if the “Brexit you voted for” was one that increased red tape, because you considered there not to be enough, or the existing system to be to simple and affordable for businesses and consumers alike.

They were saying this would be required when I looked into it in Dec/Jan.

They're shouldn't be a requirement with the mutual assistance agreement in place. That's the point of it. The costs for small companies is huge. The solution, were being told is to use Amazon or eBay to sell. Great, so actively encouraging using tax avoiding corporations.

Anyway, we've now got a deal with our German stockist for them the hold stock and fulfill EU orders.

The costs for small companies is huge.

Yes. They are.

Anyway, we’ve now got a deal with our German stockist for them the hold stock and fulfill EU orders.

If you are shifting boxes, rather than supplying anything bespoke, this is absolutely the best option, sadly. Outposts holding stock somewhere in the EU is the (inefficient) future for many UK businesses.

I thought that with a deal selling b2c to the EU would be no different to the USA or the other countries we sell to. Wrong

Yup.

This is the "we were alright before we joined" argument, one of many we warned about and got shouted down as project fear. Aside from the fact were weren't alright and the opening gambit is a lie (we were the "sick man of Europe") the point everyone ignored was that we were never going to magically go back to 'before.' Rather, a buttload of agreements, arrangements and rights negotiated over 40 years were about to disappear overnight. With nothing to replace them and no additional infrastructure to cope with the change.

I'm genuinely sorry for people who are struggling (especially if they voted against it) and take little pleasure from "I told you so" but, well, we did I'm afraid.

@monkeyboyjc - thanks for the guidelines.